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Old 28th October 2019, 04:36 AM   #81
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
I cannot read the Elie Mystal article at Above the Law (I keep getting warnings about this website from my browser, which is odd). Therefore, I do not know what legal arguments he presented and for the time being have no reason to think that Professors Stone and Volokh were wrong. I would gladly chip in to hire a black lawyer to help the Sigma Alpha Epsilon students get reinstated. Maybe they would finally have an epiphany.
And there is an obligation to permit white supremacist organizations like SAE on campus for free speech. Being founded in the jim crow south that is expected.

But clearly there university has no obligation to make students feel safe and if you are making another student feel unsafe it is really their fault to start with. Until you actually assault someone there is no reason for them to feel unsafe from your activities.

So hold your six million more chants outside the jewish student union meetings and that is all free speech.
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Old 28th October 2019, 07:53 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Personally I have no issues with racists being fined $50 for being racist, though I suspect if it gets to the SCotUS the law will be over turned.
I agree, lets throw suspected racists into a pond, if they sink, they are innocent.
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Old 28th October 2019, 08:25 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Personally I have no issues with racists being fined $50 for being racist, though I suspect if it gets to the SCotUS the law will be over turned.
Just racism, or bigotry in general?
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Old 28th October 2019, 08:49 AM   #84
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let's not stretch the meaning of incitement, shall we?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep the violence incited is of course never the fault of the inciters. Like at Charlottsville, there really were fine people on both sides the president said so. And of course the nazi organizers were in no way responsible for any violence that happened.

To suggest otherwise would like like charging an ICE agent for driving a truck into a crowd.
Incitement to violence is a narrow exception to one's rights under the first amendment. I usually suggest reading Ken White's knowledgeable yet accessible essays on these sorts of topics.
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Old 28th October 2019, 08:53 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Incitement to violence is a narrow exception to one's rights under the first amendment. I usually suggest reading Ken White's knowledgeable yet accessible essays on these sorts of topics.
Please they where not inciting violence at all in charlotsville, not a single instance of that was charged so you can't claim that the violence that happened was incited. It just happened and clearly could never have been predicted by the organizers, otherwise they would have faced incitement charges.

Look you are clear constant death to the Jews protests outside synagogues are just the cost of being a jew in america. Like racial harassment is a given if one chooses to be black and go to a white school.
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Old 28th October 2019, 08:53 AM   #86
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Is it OK to yell penis in a crowded theater?

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I would think that two drunken guys yelling obscenities might make just about anyone feel unsafe, whether the obscenities are racial slurs directed at them or not. "Drunken and disorderly" sounds like a possible (and, quite appropriately, fairly minor) charge.



I agree that the use of racial slurs should not, in itself, be an offence. However, if an offence is being committed, the motivation of the offenders becomes a matter for consideration, in particular in determining the severity of the punishment. Hate crime should be a subset of existing crime, rather than the criminalisation of hate.

Dave
When the two drunk guys are in the parking lot and the people are in their apartments, the drunk guys are not in a position to do much IMO. If they had been charged as you imply, I probably would have no problem with it, but they were not.
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Old 28th October 2019, 08:54 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Personally I have no issues with racists being fined $50 for being racist, though I suspect if it gets to the SCotUS the law will be over turned.
Also, thinking about the charge of 'ridicule', is saying an individual slur actually ridicule? I really don't get the use of this charge. Disturbing the peace, disorderly conduct, even racial intimidation, I can see. But ridicule?
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Old 28th October 2019, 08:58 AM   #88
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I don't see a close connection.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Please they where not inciting violence at all in charlotsville, not a single instance of that was charged so you can't claim that the violence that happened was incited. It just happened and clearly could never have been predicted by the organizers, otherwise they would have faced incitement charges.

Look you are clear constant death to the Jews protests outside synagogues are just the cost of being a jew in america. Like racial harassment is a given if one chooses to be black and go to a white school.
With all due respect, this thread is not about Charlottesville, and I don't see the situations as being at all comparable. Nor are the other instances you mention closely comparable IMO. The case at U Oklahoma is closer to the present case at U Connecticut, but the students who were expelled are a bit less sympathetic than these two drunk dudes.
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Old 28th October 2019, 09:03 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
When the two drunk guys are in the parking lot and the people are in their apartments, the drunk guys are not in a position to do much.
They're in a position to do quite a bit, really; they just need to start throwing things or, in the USA, shooting at stuff. If it's enough to make people in their apartments feel that there's an imminent danger to their property or safety, then there's harm being committed in the form of infringements of their right to the peaceful enjoyment of their lives and property.

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
If they had been charged as you imply, I probably would have no problem with it, but they were not.
Yes, I fully agree, and that's what I think is wrong with the whole thing. Hate in itself isn't, and shouldn't be, a crime; at most it should be a factor in detyermining punishment for an existing crime. Hence, for example, racially aggravated assault may be considered a more serious form of an existing crime, assault. In this case it seems to me that there was a perfectly reasonable offence to prosecute, which should have been the basis of any charges but for some reason wasn't. Unless, of course, there's more to the story than has come out so far; it wouldn't be the first time that racial aggravation of an existing crime was misreported as the crime itself, which seems to be a common right-wing misdirectionary tactic.

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Old 28th October 2019, 09:06 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
With all due respect, this thread is not about Charlottesville, and I don't see the situations as being at all comparable. Nor are the other instances you mention closely comparable IMO. The case at U Oklahoma is closer to the present case at U Connecticut, but the students who were expelled are a bit less sympathetic than these two drunk dudes.
Why? Drunken singing of a traditional frat song, vs drunken yelling of racial epithets, why do you view one as so much more sympathetic?

And clearly the worst thing was expelling a frat merely for being openly racist, that is a total violation of free speech right there.
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Old 28th October 2019, 09:08 AM   #91
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ponderingturtle, do you honestly feel that your hyperbole adds value to this discussion?
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Old 28th October 2019, 09:12 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
ponderingturtle, do you honestly feel that your hyperbole adds value to this discussion?
There is no hyperbola, just basic facts about how people here think the first amendment should be treated. Clearly the school can do nothing to prevent racial harassment of the black students doing so would be a violation of the first amendment rights of the racists. That is apparently a basic part of the first amendment.
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Old 28th October 2019, 09:15 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
This is a false dichotomy. We don't have to like the speech we are defending, but it is up to us to defend it anyway. The Connecticut ACLU is thoroughly confused about this, arguing for punishment through the university, as opposed to through a criminal prosecution. It is time for me to say: ACLU, you're FIREd.
I'm shocked that the ACLU would take this stance. I hadn't heard it.
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Old 28th October 2019, 10:43 AM   #94
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Local versus national ACLU

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm shocked that the ACLU would take this stance. I hadn't heard it.
The Connecticut ACLU branch did, and I provided a direct link upthread, but the national statement at the same link is a bit different. Analysis here.
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Old 28th October 2019, 10:44 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
The Connecticut br anchdid (and I think I provided a direct link upthread), but the national statement is a bit different. Analysis here.
Yep they said the unsayable the endemic nature of white supremacy with in our police departments, that is right out.
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Old 28th October 2019, 10:47 AM   #96
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Fine we should stick to more constitutional solutions to such threats, namely firearms as the solution to those acting out in this way. Feel threatened just kill them, then there are no pesky constitutional issues and we can all feel better.
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Old 28th October 2019, 12:28 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
The Connecticut ACLU branch did, and I provided a direct link upthread, but the national statement at the same link is a bit different. Analysis here.
That statement is shockingly bad, to be coming a chapter of the ACLU? Holy crap. In my opinion, the ACLU has a generational problem, where the free speech purists are all aging out and the new blood has grown up in an era of political correctness and speech codes. I can't find it now, but there was some internal survey that I heard about where they didn't think that "hate speech" was protected. Today, they probably wouldn't defend the Nazis in Skokie.

Here's an article on this tension from back after Charlottesville:
Tensions grow inside ACLU over defending free-speech rights for the far right
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Old 28th October 2019, 12:29 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
That statement is shockingly bad, to be coming a chapter of the ACLU? Holy crap. In my opinion, the ACLU has a generational problem, where the free speech purists are all aging out and the new blood has grown up in an era of political correctness and speech codes. I can't find it now, but there was some internal survey that I heard about where they didn't think that "hate speech" was protected. Today, they probably wouldn't defend the Nazis in Skokie.
Yep the proper constitutional thing to do is stand your ground and shoot the bastards. If the people had simply done that instead of calling the cops everything would be solved and no pesky constitutional issues involved. When in doubt shoot the nazi, they kill enough that it should be easy to justify.
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Old 28th October 2019, 12:35 PM   #99
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0/10 - you're not even trying at this point
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Old 28th October 2019, 12:38 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
0/10 - you're not even trying at this point
Look it is the constitutional solution to speech that makes you feel threatened. I know threats are protected speech but as long as one feels sufficiently threatened one can open fire. That is the american way to deal with such speech not some "you can't threaten genocide or spout racist crap" type things. Those are protected political speech.
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Old 28th October 2019, 01:15 PM   #101
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a shout-out for drunken, loutish behavior

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why? Drunken singing of a traditional frat song, vs drunken yelling of racial epithets, why do you view one as so much more sympathetic?

And clearly the worst thing was expelling a frat merely for being openly racist, that is a total violation of free speech right there.
The U Connecticut students were just shouting out the p-word and the n-word without calling any one particular person the p-word or the n-word. I do not recall reading that the U Oklahoma students were drunk, and I am making an assumption that the U Connecticut students were drunk, which has been known to happen from time to time on college campuses (and this was a Friday night). The U Oklahoma students were specifically saying that they were discriminating against potential black members. That is why I said words to the effect that they were less sympathetic. YMMV.
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Old 28th October 2019, 01:19 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
The U Connecticut students were just shouting out the p-word and the n-word without calling any one particular person the p-word or the n-word. The I do not recall reading that the U Oklahoma students were drunk, and I am making an assumption that the U Connecticut students were drunk, which has been known to happen from time to time on college campuses (and this was a Friday night). The U Oklahoma students were specifically saying that they were discriminating against potential black members. That is why I said words to the effect that they were less sympathetic. YMMV.
They were also celebrating murder but they did happen to be not in public but in private. They presented no threat to anyone, the U Conn students were the kind of drunk that people are legitimately afraid will assault them. But they would probably get a pass on the assault to for being drunk I guess.
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Old 28th October 2019, 04:12 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep the proper constitutional thing to do is stand your ground and shoot the bastards. If the people had simply done that instead of calling the cops everything would be solved and no pesky constitutional issues involved. When in doubt shoot the nazi, they kill enough that it should be easy to justify.
I mean, one of them was wearing a hoodie, which means that they were going to break into a place and steal jewelry, or rape a black woman (you know how white people worship thug culture).

But really, it sounds like the ACLU is a bit more cautious these days, likely in part due to how they botched the Charlottesville white supremacist riots, which they provided legal aid to initially, until they carried out the violence they had repeatedly stated that they would.
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Old 29th October 2019, 04:36 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
The Connecticut ACLU branch did, and I provided a direct link upthread, but the national statement at the same link is a bit different. Analysis here.
Thanks.
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Old 29th October 2019, 05:01 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Oh, **** that. Freedom of speech is related to freedom of thought. If others are prohibited in their expression -- or even inhibited -- then I am deprived of accepting or rejecting their ideas. Some people feel content saying they hate the United States. Others want to burn Old Glory. We don't need artless, brainless commissars to tell us one is valid and the other invalid. It's easy to stand up for and protect speech you find mildly disagreeable. The acid test for free speech is upholding that which you despise.
It's impressive how hard you can hit when you step out of your Colbert-like right-wing fake persona.
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Old 29th October 2019, 07:51 AM   #106
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UConn students ARRESTED for 'ridiculing' speech

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
I would support a person's right to offend only insofar as the laws were changed to allow the offended to deal with the issue themselves by beating the ever-loving hell out of the offender without penalty.
Your post offends me. Kindly tell me your address, that I may show up on your doorstep with a baseball bat.

When your preferred method of dealing with offense is law, beware the society where everything is likely to offend someone.
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Old 1st November 2019, 05:43 PM   #107
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Further commentary from the Foundation for Individual Rights in Eductation.


Quote:
One of the two University of Connecticut students arrested last week by university police officers for using a racial slur made his first appearance in a criminal court on Wednesday, charged with a misdemeanor for violating a state law prohibiting speech that “ridicule[s]” protected classes of people. As FIRE explained in a recent letter to UConn, government actors — including state universities — may not punish this type of speech, however offensive, without violating the First Amendment.

Last week, UConn responded to our letter, saying that the university “wholeheartedly shares FIRE’s steadfast defense of free speech principles,” but advised that the criminal charges were “in the hands of the state of Connecticut.” Per UConn, FIRE’s concerns about the obviously unconstitutional statute are better directed at the state legislature, not the police who enforced it, and the university and its police are now powerless to rescind the charges against the students.

https://www.thefire.org/uconn-we-can...olice-started/


They also did some more historical digging and found that back in 1989, a Student 'Of Colour' was pinged under the same law for the following (Quoted from the New York Times (The archived article is behind a paywall.)):


Quote:
To Nina Wu, a junior at the University of Connecticut, the handmade poster she hung on her dormitory room door a year ago was just a joke. It listed the types of people who were “welcome,”’ “tolerated,” “unwelcome” and “shot on sight.” The last category included “bimbos,” “preppies,” “racists” and, some students say, “homos.” [Wu denied this.]

University officials expelled Miss Wu from all residential and dining halls in April. They found the word “homos” a violation of the student conduct code’s anti-harassment rule, which prohibited “making slurs or epithets based on race, sex, ethnic origin, religion or sexual orientation.” […] [T]he incident was sparked by two women who felt that the word “bimbos” was directed at them. Disciplinary action was taken only after the official reviewing the complaint found that the poster also contained an anti-homosexual slur.

https://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/11/n...inst-bias.html


The University lost the case against Miss Wu and apparently also lost their copy of the injunction resulting from it, which to quote FIRE,



Quote:
...permanently enjoined the University of Connecticut from enforcing “any . . . policy that interferes with the exercise of First Amendment rights by . . . any other student, when the exercise of such rights is unaccompanied by violence or the imminent threat of violence.”

Oops!
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Old 1st November 2019, 07:56 PM   #108
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lol!
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Old 2nd November 2019, 02:03 PM   #109
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Nice work

I think that the incident was a false flag operation performed by undercover FIRE operatives. Their intent was to make the Connecticut chapter of the ACLU, their rival organization in certain respects, look bad.
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Old 4th November 2019, 04:29 PM   #110
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fighting words?

Austin Bragg and Eugene Volokh wrote a clear summary of free speech as it pertains to public universities and colleges. They note, that "Students at public colleges may not be disciplined for their speech (unless it falls into the narrow First Amendment exceptions, such as true threats of criminal attack, or face-to-face personal insults that are likely to start a fight). That's true even if the speech is seen as evil or offensive, whether racist, sexist, religiously bigoted, unpatriotic, supportive of crime, or whatever else. For instance, a federal appeals court held that public university students can't be disciplined for putting on an "ugly woman" skit at a fraternity event, in which one of the students was in blackface."

I am not a lawyer, but given that the two students were shouting out words to no one in particular, I don't see how this incident falls under the "fighting words" exception. In addition, one legal scholar mentioned that the fighting words exception may not be dead but people are checking its pulse.
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