ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd October 2019, 03:14 AM   #1
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,100
Murder investigation in UK after 39 people found dead in lorry container

Geezes I hate people smugglers

Up there in disgusting

https://www.thejournal.ie/essex-lorry-4863572-Oct2019/

Quote:
Murder investigation in UK after 39 people found dead in lorry container

A LORRY CONTAINER carrying 39 dead bodies has been discovered in Essex in the United Kingdom.

A 25-year-old-man from Northern Ireland has been arrested on suspicion of murder following the discovery.

Essex Police say they were called to the scene at Waterglade Industrial Park, Eastern Avenue, Grays by the ambulance service at 1.40 am this morning.

Emergency services were also present but the 39 people were pronounced dead at the scene.

Police say early indications suggest that 38 of the dead are adults and one is aged in their teens.

“This is a tragic incident where a large number of people have lost their lives.
Our enquiries are ongoing to establish what has happened,” Chief Superintendent Andrew Mariner said this morning.

“We have arrested the lorry driver in connection with the incident who remains in police custody as our enquiries continue,” Mariner added.

A cordon remains closed in the area and the business park remains closed.

Holyhead is regularly used as a port accepting vessels that have travelled from Ireland but police have not yet said if this is the case in this instance.

Essex Police are due to provide a further update on the investigation at about 11.30 am this morning.

Seamus Leheny, Northern Ireland policy manager for the Freight Transport Association told BBC News that if the lorry had come from Bulgaria, getting into Britain via Holyhead was an “unorthodox route”.

He said: “People have been saying that security and checks have been increased at places like Dover and Calais, so it might be seen as an easier way to get in by going from Cherbourg or Roscoff, over to Rosslare, then up the road to Dublin.

“It’s a long way around and it’ll add an extra day to the journey.”

Paige Wade, who was driving past the industrial park at 4.15am, told the PA news agency that there was a lot of police activity at the scene this morning.

“I had just finished work while driving up Motherwell Way and all you could see was blue flashing lights, as I was driving past there was police tape to cordon off the start of Eastern Avenue.

I think an educated guess can figure it out.

Not enough drilled air holes and ventilation, would probably be up there
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 23rd October 2019 at 03:18 AM.
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2019, 01:35 PM   #2
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,901
A lower body count than the last time it happened, but it'll still spike the homicide figures.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2019, 10:13 PM   #3
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,100
My educated guess was wrong.

I hadn't seen the truck

It was a refrigerated truck and they all died of hypothermia.

Scumbags (the smugglers, not the dead)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rry-container/
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2019, 10:50 PM   #4
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76,549
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
...
Not enough drilled air holes and ventilation, would probably be up there
It's worse than that. One comment on the news was that the driver shut the ventilation opening.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2019, 10:51 PM   #5
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76,549
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
My educated guess was wrong.

I hadn't seen the truck

It was a refrigerated truck and they all died of hypothermia.

Scumbags (the smugglers, not the dead)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rry-container/
Maybe turning the cold on shuts the vents off. Double the cruelty.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 23rd October 2019 at 10:54 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2019, 11:11 PM   #6
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 24,920
Also criticize the people who made people smuggling necessary.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 12:44 AM   #7
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
39 dead in a lorry - driver arrested

In some gruesome news a couple of days ago it was reported that thirty-nine people, including one teenager, were found dead in the back of a refrigerated lorry (it is not known at this stage if the fridge was on) at an industrial park in Grays, Essex, UK and the driver arrested, after pulling in from having picked up the trailer/container from Purfleet a port near Tilbury, a major docking point from Europe (France/Belgium/Denmark/Sweden/Russia).

The driver, 25-year old 'Mo' Robinson from Portadown, Tyrone, Northern Ireland had driven from his home with his driver's cabin, picked up the container, believed to have arrived from Zeebrugge, Belgium and originating from Bulgaria - an estimated three-day journey overland, circa 1:05 am. Now what is interesting, is that within 35 minutes it is claimed Mr Robinson himself discovered the bodies and called the emergency services.

Yet, the press have labelled this poor fellow 'one of Britain's worse mass murderers'. Now, he may or may not be involved in organised people trafficking crime but to labelled this young father-to-be a 'mass murderer' and plaster his face all over the media is beyond appalling and also inhumane and another Chris Jeffries waiting to happen.

Even the BBC are reporting it was the 'ambulance services' who discovered the body.

Quote:
Ambulance staff discovered the bodies in the container at Waterglade Industrial Park in Grays just after 01:30 BST on Wednesday. The lorry and trailer left the port at Purfleet shortly after 01:05.

Eric Van Duyse, a spokesman for the Belgian federal prosecutor's office, said an investigation into the incident was under way.
He added: "We have no idea at the moment how long the lorry spent in Belgium, it could be hours or days, we just don't know."

The irony is, Mo Robinson is reported by his friends and family and 'the people of Northern Ireland (catholic and protestant') to have been released without charge.

Then there is the spectacle of Boris Johnson and Priti Patel crying fake tears when the UK has one of the worst records for accepting asylum seekers and detention centres have no cap on how long you can be detained for whilst awaiting a deportation decision. Who remembers the Tories' 'hostile environment' policy and the Windrush scandal? These tragedies are waiting to happen.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 01:00 AM   #8
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,481
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The irony is, Mo Robinson is reported by his friends and family and 'the people of Northern Ireland (catholic and protestant') to have been released without charge.
Eh?

"The two searches on Wednesday night are believed to be linked to the arrest of the driver, named locally as 25-year-old Mo Robinson, from Portadown, who is being held and questioned on suspicion of murder by Essex police."

Where does "released without charge" come from?
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 01:09 AM   #9
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,357
What is concerning is the mixed information about the lorry driver who has been now named and pictured in the press.

There are differing claims about whether or not he phoned the emergency services.

We do not know how long he had been driving the lorry for.
We do not know if he had access to the trailer.
We do not know if he was a patsy or even driving the vehicle under threat of violence.
We do not know why he parked where he did, was it because he was suspicious of what was inside and wanted to go somewhere quiet and check?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 01:18 AM   #10
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,357
A photo of the lorry being driven away shows it is left hand drive. There have been reports it is registered in NI, Bulgaria and now even Belgium. This is one of the most confused, speculative news reports I have seen.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 01:25 AM   #11
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,100
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A photo of the lorry being driven away shows it is left hand drive. There have been reports it is registered in NI, Bulgaria and now even Belgium. This is one of the most confused, speculative news reports I have seen.
The ownership is probably purposely convoluted to **** so the organisers will evade identification and the driver can be a "fall scum/guy"
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 01:34 AM   #12
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Eh?

"The two searches on Wednesday night are believed to be linked to the arrest of the driver, named locally as 25-year-old Mo Robinson, from Portadown, who is being held and questioned on suspicion of murder by Essex police."

Where does "released without charge" come from?
Twitter.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 01:35 AM   #13
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What is concerning is the mixed information about the lorry driver who has been now named and pictured in the press.

There are differing claims about whether or not he phoned the emergency services.

We do not know how long he had been driving the lorry for.
We do not know if he had access to the trailer.
We do not know if he was a patsy or even driving the vehicle under threat of violence.
We do not know why he parked where he did, was it because he was suspicious of what was inside and wanted to go somewhere quiet and check?
AIUI that industrial park is a common stopping point for long distance lorry drivers from the continent. IOW no more suspicious than stopping at a service station.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 01:48 AM   #14
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
Let's face it, 'Mo' Robinson, the driver, is hardly going to be keeping a running commentary on his FB page were he knowingly involved in serious organised crime.

There is a picture on his FB page of his 'larking around with a policeman', according to the DM.

It also says the 39 were 'probably dead at least 15 hours'. But Mr Robinson only had the container in his possession for little more than 35 minutes.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 01:58 AM   #15
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,357
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
AIUI that industrial park is a common stopping point for long distance lorry drivers from the continent. IOW no more suspicious than stopping at a service station.
I did not think it suspicious he stopped there, I know drivers stop for breaks and checks and industrial estates are a good place to do that. I was speculating he checked the load, due to reports he phoned the emergency services.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:07 AM   #16
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,692
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The ownership is probably purposely convoluted to **** so the organisers will evade identification and the driver can be a "fall scum/guy"
The thing is, with that kind of truck, only the tractor is usually owned by the driver or whoever the driver is working for. In simple terms, the driver would typically be told, "go to such and such a place, hook up that trailer and take it to another such and such a place"

In the case of a contracting long distance truck driver (which this guy appears to be, judging by the photos on his Facebook page of the various different trailers being dragged by his truck) a typical sequence of events might be that he would be contracted by a transport company to haul a container trailer of, say, machine parts from "A" to "B", then he might deadhead 30 miles to "C" where he hooks up a refrigerated trailer to bring back to "A". The truck driver, and even the transport company might have no idea what is in the trailer, and they usually would not inspect anything other that the paperwork.

The ownership of the truck is not really relevant, its the ownership of the trailer he is hauling that would need to be established.
__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:07 AM   #17
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,357
The tractor unit is left hand drive but has English writing on it. It is apparently from Bulgaria, but is registered to a company in NI.

There is little doubt that there is a business link between the two, but is it refrigerated food transportation, or human trafficking, or both or the NI company was unlucky and had their unit hijacked by traffickers?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:09 AM   #18
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,357
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The thing is, with that kind of truck, only the tractor is usually owned by the driver or whoever the driver is working for. In simple terms, the driver would typically be told, "go to such and such a place, hook up that trailer and take it to another such and such a place"

In the case of a contracting long distance truck driver (which this guy appears to be, judging by the photos on his Facebook page of the various different trailers being dragged by his truck) a typical sequence of events might be that he would be contracted by a transport company to haul a container trailer of, say, machine parts from "A" to "B", then he might deadhead 30 miles to "C" where he hooks up a refrigerated trailer to bring back to "A". The truck driver, and even the transport company might have no idea what is in the trailer, and they usually would not inspect anything other that the paperwork.

The ownership of the truck is not really relevant, its the ownership of the trailer he is hauling that would need to be established.
There should be a legal requirement for all trailer units to be opened by the driver and checked, prior to leaving the port.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:11 AM   #19
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,100
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The thing is, with that kind of truck, only the tractor is usually owned by the driver or whoever the driver is working for. In simple terms, the driver would typically be told, "go to such and such a place, hook up that trailer and take it to another such and such a place"

In the case of a contracting long distance truck driver (which this guy appears to be, judging by the photos on his Facebook page of the various different trailers being dragged by his truck) a typical sequence of events might be that he would be contracted by a transport company to haul a container trailer of, say, machine parts from "A" to "B", then he might deadhead 30 miles to "C" where he hooks up a refrigerated trailer to bring back to "A". The truck driver, and even the transport company might have no idea what is in the trailer, and they usually would not inspect anything other that the paperwork.

The ownership of the truck is not really relevant, its the ownership of the trailer he is hauling that would need to be established.
True

It is a frustrating case given the lack of details.

For all we know they may have been dead already when he picked it up from an earlier leg, so no noise coming out of the thing.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:13 AM   #20
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,692
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The tractor unit is left hand drive but has English writing on it.
Unusual but not unheard of. Stobarts used to run a couple of LHD Scanias.
__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:15 AM   #21
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,357
The Times has chosen to condemn the driver, despite the lack of reliable information;

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...uiry-5bb00cbnx

"Smiling out of the window of a lorry, the keen young haulier seemed anything but a people smuggler, let alone a mass murderer."
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:20 AM   #22
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,692
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There should be a legal requirement for all trailer units to be opened by the driver and checked, prior to leaving the port.
The trouble is that in almost all cases, containers are locked and sealed with a lead or plastic tamper crimp to stop pilfering. Same with large refrigeration units. In the vast majority of cases, the driver only knows what is in his trailer/container by what it says on the bill of lading.
__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:23 AM   #23
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The ownership is probably purposely convoluted to **** so the organisers will evade identification and the driver can be a "fall scum/guy"
It's a straight forward business decision. If your (haulage, in this case) company is registered in Bulgaria, you only pay 10% corporation tax. Imagine your net profits are int he £'000's or even £'ms, then the savings are massive, you only pay half of what you would pay if registered in the UK.

And before anyone claims this would only attract criminals, many MNC's do it: Amazon, Ebay, Microsoft - give goods and services in once country, invoice from another.

Imagine if you discovered there was a way to halve your tax (and many do by registering as a company) it makes business sense to do so. Every time you contribute to an ISA or pension fund you, too, are taking advantage of favourable tax concessions, so in itself, the fact the Irish haulage firm is registered in Bulgaria means zippo.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:25 AM   #24
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The tractor unit is left hand drive but has English writing on it. It is apparently from Bulgaria, but is registered to a company in NI.

There is little doubt that there is a business link between the two, but is it refrigerated food transportation, or human trafficking, or both or the NI company was unlucky and had their unit hijacked by traffickers?
Normally, biscuits, apparently.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:28 AM   #25
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There should be a legal requirement for all trailer units to be opened by the driver and checked, prior to leaving the port.
That makes sense but creates paperwork. Should an ordianry lorry driver be expected to open each crate/box to examine what's inside?

Then he or she'd need to fill in various forms an lodge it. Then they'll need insurance against having to take the rap should there be concealed loads of illegal drugs or arms on board. They might need to acquire sniffer dogs and X-ray detectors.

Nope. Impractical and not workable.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:29 AM   #26
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Times has chosen to condemn the driver, despite the lack of reliable information;

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...uiry-5bb00cbnx

"Smiling out of the window of a lorry, the keen young haulier seemed anything but a people smuggler, let alone a mass murderer."
Disgusting. You would think the TIMES knew better.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:58 AM   #27
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,100
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That makes sense but creates paperwork. Should an ordianry lorry driver be expected to open each crate/box to examine what's inside?

Then he or she'd need to fill in various forms an lodge it. Then they'll need insurance against having to take the rap should there be concealed loads of illegal drugs or arms on board. They might need to acquire sniffer dogs and X-ray detectors.

Nope. Impractical and not workable.
Sorry, but to me paperwork is a **** poor excuse for not doing it.

They already have to log hours driven etc.

Not sure how you get to sniffer dogs.

A couple of motion sensor cameras on the trailer to pick up any planting ain't exactly buying a corvette in price these days
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 06:06 AM   #28
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,613
Apparently its all the British authorities fault for not letting Chinese migrants come and go into their country as they please, since it's not safe to live in China nor is it safe to seek asylum anywhere on the European mainland. It's no wonder that many of these people are willing to risk getting crushed under trucks because staying in France is like a death sentence... (although most of those are Afghanis, Syrians and people from Northern parts of Africa).

They must go to the UK and the UK must let them in!
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

Last edited by Arcade22; 24th October 2019 at 06:10 AM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 08:57 AM   #29
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
It could be the driver had nothing to do with the Chinese victims found dead in a container driven by him from Purfleet to Grays, after arriving via Zeebrugge. However, it is understandable the police are keen to understand just what his role was. Who hired him? Has he done it before? How - as a 25-year old rookie lorry driver - has he managed to afford a £300,000 house in a rural area, even mortgaged up to the eyeballs, especially if his girlfriend expecting twins is unable to work? How was it worth his while to drive, as a 'self-employed' lorry driver all the way from Portadown, Co. Armagh, Northern Ireland, having to travel via Holyhead in Wales, if he knew nothing at all about the apparent illegal immigrant smuggling (possibly as slave labour) and whiling away three days awaiting the arrival of the ship?

Truth is, the Chinese form one of the largest group of non-EU citizens arriving in the UK, most of them registering as students.

We know Chinese gang-masters exist, for they were behind the 58 found dead in a similar lorry 2002 on a roadside in Austria and behind the 21 cockle-pickers who drowned in Morecambe Bay, earning just £1 per diem.

ISTM this is huge insofar as the police may have smashed a well-organised ring of highly organised, ruthless people smugglers. If the average migrant pays £10,000 for the journey 5,000 miles out of China, then someone somewhere has pocketed £390,000 +.

Maybe that is the answer as to how it could be worth while to a simple Northern Irish lorry driver with a love of C&W and Ulster Unionist loyalism.

Quote:
Spanish police have broken up a huge Chinese trafficking gang that charged migrants nearly £18,000 each to take them to Britain.

Detectives arrested 155 Chinese citizens in raids in Barcelona, Madrid and other cities across the country. Among those detained were a woman and three men suspected of being the masterminds.

The gang charged each migrant €20,000 to bring them from China, hide them in flats around Spain, teach them some English phrases and supply them with fake passports. The smugglers would buy the migrants cheap flights to Heathrow and Gatwick. Some were also trying to reach Ireland.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...o-uk-3rml99n3x [paywall]
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'

Last edited by Vixen; 24th October 2019 at 09:00 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 11:06 AM   #30
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 19,163
Is it not a rule that if that container has customs seals on it, then the driver is not permitted to open it anyway?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 11:40 AM   #31
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 15,551
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There should be a legal requirement for all trailer units to be opened by the driver and checked, prior to leaving the port.

Completely impractical, for reasons having nothing to do with paperwork.

Here's a loaded semi-trailer, being turned over to an independent driver for the next leg of its delivery. The driver, required to check the contents of the load, opens the trailer's loading doors and sees... a wall of cartons, extending the full width of the trailer and within a few inches of its full height, which is two stories from the ground. The cartons say "Swimming Pool Filter GG2-225" and sure enough 100 of that item are on the bill of lading, but that's only about 5% of the entire load.

Is the load now checked, and he can close the doors and be on his way? Or should he climb up and give the bottom cartons a few good kicks, to make sure he's not really looking at a false cardboard wall with guns or drugs or dead bodies behind it? Or is he responsible for verifying that the cartons really contain swimming pool filters, as well as the rest of the load, which would literally take all day, plus a crew, lifting equipment, and a safe dry bay to do that work in?
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 11:52 AM   #32
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
A very dear late friend of mine was a long distance lorry driver, as was one of my cousins, and both drove all over Europe. The friend was one of the most intelligent people I ever met. Would he have been interested in policing his truck? No, these guys just want to keep on truckin' without a care in the world. It's a tough life, driving endlessly, through the night and having to sleep at the back. If they had wanted a pen-pushing desk job, they would have signed up for office work or joined the border security.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 12:02 PM   #33
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,357
It is of course possible that the driver went to the industrial estate to let the immigrants out, in full knowledge that they were there. He has been kept in custody for another 24 hours for further questioning.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 12:10 PM   #34
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is of course possible that the driver went to the industrial estate to let the immigrants out, in full knowledge that they were there. He has been kept in custody for another 24 hours for further questioning.
Probably a risky thing to do in a place surrounded by CCTV cameras?
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 12:35 PM   #35
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 43,747
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Probably a risky thing to do in a place surrounded by CCTV cameras?
According to the interviews I saw on TV, it seems to have been common knowledge that groups of foreigners were apparently being dropped off there.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 01:23 PM   #36
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,154
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
According to the interviews I saw on TV, it seems to have been common knowledge that groups of foreigners were apparently being dropped off there.
Hindsight's a fine thing,eh? Some guy said he had sometimes seen people walking around looking lost as though they had no idea where they were.

Others had heard 'rumours'.

Is there actually any hard evidence 'groups of illegal immigrants regularly alighted there'?

I thought not.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 01:56 PM   #37
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 43,747
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hindsight's a fine thing,eh? Some guy said he had sometimes seen people walking around looking lost as though they had no idea where they were.

Others had heard 'rumours'.

Is there actually any hard evidence 'groups of illegal immigrants regularly alighted there'?

I thought not.
Did you actually see the reports or are you dismissing them out of hand? What do you mean by 'hard evidence'?

There was, I assume, a taxi driver who said a group of people who didn't speak English who would give him a mobile phone, and a voice on the other end would tell him where to take them.

ETA: Also, please don't put something I didn't say in quotes and imply I did say it.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20

Last edited by zooterkin; 24th October 2019 at 02:02 PM.
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:00 PM   #38
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 43,747
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It could be the driver had nothing to do with the Chinese victims found dead in a container driven by him from Purfleet to Grays, after arriving via Zeebrugge. However, it is understandable the police are keen to understand just what his role was. Who hired him? Has he done it before? How - as a 25-year old rookie lorry driver - has he managed to afford a £300,000 house in a rural area, even mortgaged up to the eyeballs, especially if his girlfriend expecting twins is unable to work? How was it worth his while to drive, as a 'self-employed' lorry driver all the way from Portadown, Co. Armagh, Northern Ireland, having to travel via Holyhead in Wales, if he knew nothing at all about the apparent illegal immigrant smuggling (possibly as slave labour) and whiling away three days awaiting the arrival of the ship?

Truth is, the Chinese form one of the largest group of non-EU citizens arriving in the UK, most of them registering as students.

We know Chinese gang-masters exist, for they were behind the 58 found dead in a similar lorry 2002 on a roadside in Austria and behind the 21 cockle-pickers who drowned in Morecambe Bay, earning just £1 per diem.

ISTM this is huge insofar as the police may have smashed a well-organised ring of highly organised, ruthless people smugglers. If the average migrant pays £10,000 for the journey 5,000 miles out of China, then someone somewhere has pocketed £390,000 +.

Maybe that is the answer as to how it could be worth while to a simple Northern Irish lorry driver with a love of C&W and Ulster Unionist loyalism.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...o-uk-3rml99n3x [paywall]

You seem to want it both ways; here you're racking up a nice pile of innuendo and suggestion, but earlier you said this:

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yet, the press have labelled this poor fellow 'one of Britain's worse mass murderers'. Now, he may or may not be involved in organised people trafficking crime but to labelled this young father-to-be a 'mass murderer' and plaster his face all over the media is beyond appalling and also inhumane and another Chris Jeffries waiting to happen.
.
Have you considered a career in tabloid journalism?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 02:28 PM   #39
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 43,747
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How - as a 25-year old rookie lorry driver - has he managed to afford a £300,000 house in a rural area, even mortgaged up to the eyeballs, especially if his girlfriend expecting twins is unable to work?
What are you basing this on? i don't think it counts as a rookie when you've been doing it for five years, which is also plenty long enough to have earnt a reasonable sum as an HGV driver if you're prepared to put in the hours.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 03:55 PM   #40
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,100
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A very dear late friend of mine was a long distance lorry driver, as was one of my cousins, and both drove all over Europe. The friend was one of the most intelligent people I ever met. Would he have been interested in policing his truck? No, these guys just want to keep on truckin' without a care in the world. It's a tough life, driving endlessly, through the night and having to sleep at the back. If they had wanted a pen-pushing desk job, they would have signed up for office work or joined the border security.
Tbf given some fit outs of bedding areas in modern long haul trucks, I'd rather sleep there than a fairly plush hotel.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:32 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.