ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 24th October 2019, 04:09 PM   #41
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 41,233
It is possible the people were already dead when the container was picked up..
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 04:12 PM   #42
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 41,233
Netflix has an episode of the new series "Criminal" that is surprisingly relevant.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 04:22 PM   #43
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,961
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Netflix has an episode of the new series "Criminal" that is surprisingly relevant.
Since season 2 of The Wire aired, I'd call it a pretty common TV crime procedural plot*.

*Which is not to trivialize the fact that people have been murdered in this fashion in reality both before and since.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 12:59 AM   #44
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,245
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Did you actually see the reports or are you dismissing them out of hand? What do you mean by 'hard evidence'?

There was, I assume, a taxi driver who said a group of people who didn't speak English who would give him a mobile phone, and a voice on the other end would tell him where to take them.

ETA: Also, please don't put something I didn't say in quotes and imply I did say it.
No, I haven't seen it.

If a 'taxi driver' says so, it must be true.

If Purfleet really is a drop-off point for illegal immigrants I'd like to know of verified occasions. Otherwise it just comes across as idle speculation after the event.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 01:04 AM   #45
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,245
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You seem to want it both ways; here you're racking up a nice pile of innuendo and suggestion, but earlier you said this:


Have you considered a career in tabloid journalism?
On the one hand I am disgusted that the lorry driver has been labelled a 'mass murderer' by the media when not enough is yet known.

OTOH I see nothing wrong in speculating about who might have hired him and why he travelled all that way, many miles from his home as 'self employed'.

If he is involved then a ring of people smugglers has just been busted.

If he knew nothing about it and assumed it was just the usual biscuits and Irish mushrooms (which I often bought myself) then the poor guy can look forward to substantial damages from the UK media.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 01:05 AM   #46
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,245
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
It is possible the people were already dead when the container was picked up..
Press estimates seem to be '15 hours' I can't see they could have died during the 35 minutes this guy had the lorry, even if ventilation was sealed and the refrigeration was on.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 01:24 AM   #47
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 43,797
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, I haven't seen it.
Probably best not commenting, then.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 01:29 AM   #48
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,382
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, I haven't seen it.

If a 'taxi driver' says so, it must be true.

If Purfleet really is a drop-off point for illegal immigrants I'd like to know of verified occasions. Otherwise it just comes across as idle speculation after the event.
When I speculated that it was a possible reason to stop the lorry there, I offered no evidence. I also offered no evidence when I speculated earlier in the thread that he had maybe stopped to check the load.

At the moment we know very little for certain and we are speculating a lot.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 01:32 AM   #49
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,245
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Probably best not commenting, then.
However, I saw similar claims in online newspapers. All of them appear to have been based on hindsight memory rather than actually witnessing 'illegals' alighting.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 01:48 AM   #50
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,382
For whatever reason he stopped the lorry very soon after setting off and he checked the load.

It would appear those inside were already dead, so he was not stopping to investigate noises. He was not stopping at a shop or for fuel. If he had stopped to check say a warning light, would that mean he would check inside the container? Do refrigerated containers that are losing temperature warn the driver?

In press speculation;

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-officials-say

"One report claimed detectives were focusing on three suspected gang members based in Northern Ireland near the border. The Daily Telegraph cited security sources saying they were concentrating on a criminal gang based in south Armagh with links to dissident paramilitaries."

In an incidental and speculative side story...

I went to NI a few months ago and was first on the ferry at Cairnryan as I was the only biker on that trip. I went to the restaurant, got a coffee and a nice seat and was dozing as the rest of the passengers arrived. When I came to I had the rather odd experience of realising that I was the only European I could see. The restaurant was full of Chinese, well over 50% of all the passengers were Chinese. Apparently they are mad for Game of Thrones and NI is the place to go. There has been a large increase not just in tourism, but also emigration. That would possibly make people smuggling less risky, as a Chinese person is quite a common site in NI and they want to go there.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 02:30 AM   #51
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,245
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
For whatever reason he stopped the lorry very soon after setting off and he checked the load.

It would appear those inside were already dead, so he was not stopping to investigate noises. He was not stopping at a shop or for fuel. If he had stopped to check say a warning light, would that mean he would check inside the container? Do refrigerated containers that are losing temperature warn the driver?

In press speculation;

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-officials-say

"One report claimed detectives were focusing on three suspected gang members based in Northern Ireland near the border. The Daily Telegraph cited security sources saying they were concentrating on a criminal gang based in south Armagh with links to dissident paramilitaries."

In an incidental and speculative side story...

I went to NI a few months ago and was first on the ferry at Cairnryan as I was the only biker on that trip. I went to the restaurant, got a coffee and a nice seat and was dozing as the rest of the passengers arrived. When I came to I had the rather odd experience of realising that I was the only European I could see. The restaurant was full of Chinese, well over 50% of all the passengers were Chinese. Apparently they are mad for Game of Thrones and NI is the place to go. There has been a large increase not just in tourism, but also emigration. That would possibly make people smuggling less risky, as a Chinese person is quite a common site in NI and they want to go there.
Just as a matter of interest, how did you know they were Chinese? I ask because it is a common misperception in London that Japanese tourists - of which there are many, as they are free to travel - are 'Chinese'.

My two 'Chinese-looking' friends are actually Indonesian and Malaysian, respectively. I also have a Filipino friend who also looks strongly Chinese.

I expect the police know the persons inside the container are Chinese because they found papers or documents on someone's person. Plus the fact it is very hard for Chinese migrants to be allowed to settle in the UK.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 05:36 AM   #52
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 43,797
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Just as a matter of interest, how did you know they were Chinese? I ask because it is a common misperception in London that Japanese tourists - of which there are many, as they are free to travel - are 'Chinese'.

My two 'Chinese-looking' friends are actually Indonesian and Malaysian, respectively. I also have a Filipino friend who also looks strongly Chinese.
Iíd have thought most people would actually make the mistake the other way, since the Japanese tourist party is more of a stereotype.

That said, I have seen more parties of Chinese tourists than Japanese ones more recently, both in the UK and abroad (I spent some time in Japan, so I can usually tell if they are speaking Japanese or Chinese, or by elimination, Korean. Iím also aware of the Chinese communities in Malaysia other similar countries, but they donít, as far as Iím aware, tend to arrive in such groups in the UK.).
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 05:44 AM   #53
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,276
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There should be a legal requirement for all trailer units to be opened by the driver and checked, prior to leaving the port.
Breaking the Customs seals?
Also who pays for the time taken to load/unload eh contents?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 05:46 AM   #54
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,276
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Completely impractical, for reasons having nothing to do with paperwork.

Here's a loaded semi-trailer, being turned over to an independent driver for the next leg of its delivery. The driver, required to check the contents of the load, opens the trailer's loading doors and sees... a wall of cartons, extending the full width of the trailer and within a few inches of its full height, which is two stories from the ground. The cartons say "Swimming Pool Filter GG2-225" and sure enough 100 of that item are on the bill of lading, but that's only about 5% of the entire load.

Is the load now checked, and he can close the doors and be on his way? Or should he climb up and give the bottom cartons a few good kicks, to make sure he's not really looking at a false cardboard wall with guns or drugs or dead bodies behind it? Or is he responsible for verifying that the cartons really contain swimming pool filters, as well as the rest of the load, which would literally take all day, plus a crew, lifting equipment, and a safe dry bay to do that work in?
This.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 06:41 AM   #55
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 43,957
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I went to NI a few months ago and was first on the ferry at Cairnryan as I was the only biker on that trip. I went to the restaurant, got a coffee and a nice seat and was dozing as the rest of the passengers arrived. When I came to I had the rather odd experience of realising that I was the only European I could see. The restaurant was full of Chinese, well over 50% of all the passengers were Chinese. Apparently they are mad for Game of Thrones and NI is the place to go. There has been a large increase not just in tourism, but also emigration. That would possibly make people smuggling less risky, as a Chinese person is quite a common site in NI and they want to go there.

I went to NI in August on the same ferry and it was over-run by Slovenian tourists, with only their tour guide speaking fluent English. Being caught behind a bunch of them when trying to get lunch was annoying. I also did one of the Game of Thrones excursions. Don't remember seeing anyone Chinese at all!
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 09:57 AM   #56
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 43,797
Latest news is that some of the dead may be from Vietnam.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-lorry-victims
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 11:07 AM   #57
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,930
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
According to the interviews I saw on TV, it seems to have been common knowledge that groups of foreigners were apparently being dropped off there.
Yes, it seems reporters can't move for people ready to claim they see scores of migrants leaping from lorries every week, but presumably weren't interested in reporting that to the authorities at the time.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 11:53 AM   #58
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,382
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Just as a matter of interest, how did you know they were Chinese? ...
I don't, I am repeating what the press had said and it is now becoming apparent some at least may be Vietnamese.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 11:56 AM   #59
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,382
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, it seems reporters can't move for people ready to claim they see scores of migrants leaping from lorries every week, but presumably weren't interested in reporting that to the authorities at the time.
Or, as a lady on the ITV news said, she had, but stopped because they did not appear to be interested. She described one turning up at a neighbours house begging...for some shoes.

Considering there are reports that people are paying £35k to be smuggled from China to the UK there needs, somehow to be more publicity to let prospective illegal immigrants know that they are being well and truly ripped off.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 11:58 AM   #60
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,382
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Breaking the Customs seals?
Also who pays for the time taken to load/unload eh contents?
If lorry drivers are made legally more responsible for what is in their lorry, I think they will be more inclined to ask questions, check documents and do what they can to check the load.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 12:43 PM   #61
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,497
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If lorry drivers are made legally more responsible for what is in their lorry, I think they will be more inclined to ask questions, check documents and do what they can to check the load.
See post #54. Even if it were legal to check the load it would be easy to make it useless.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 01:11 PM   #62
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,382
Some the press reporting is frightening. This couple appear to be previous owners of the lorry tractor unit and that has been enough to make them headline news in The Metro;

https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/25/first...orry-10985350/

"A husband and wife named as the last known owners of a lorry containing the bodies of 39 migrants have been pictured. Joanna Maher and haulage firm boss Thomas Maher, both 38, were arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to traffic people and manslaughter earlier today. Police raided their £400,000 home in Warrington, Cheshire and their beauty salon around the corner, named New Hair Don’t Care. The pair, who remain in custody, said they sold the cab in October 2018 and had voluntarily gone to the police themselves."
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 01:14 PM   #63
Cainkane1
Philosopher
 
Cainkane1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,776
This happens in America from time to time. People wanting into America illegally will often go to great lengths to get here. Many times, unfortunately, these folks end up crammed together in a truck and suffocated.
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.
Cainkane1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 01:40 PM   #64
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,276
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If lorry drivers are made legally more responsible for what is in their lorry, I think they will be more inclined to ask questions, check documents and do what they can to check the load.
And soon after the UK's economy collapses as every truck entering the country has a couple of extra hours added to its journey time. We discussed such delays up and their effects in the last Brexit thread.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 02:30 PM   #65
commandlinegamer
Philosopher
 
commandlinegamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mazes of Menace
Posts: 8,919
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Some the press reporting is frightening. This couple appear to be previous owners of the lorry tractor unit and that has been enough to make them headline news in The Metro;

https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/25/first...orry-10985350/

"A husband and wife named as the last known owners of a lorry containing the bodies of 39 migrants have been pictured. Joanna Maher and haulage firm boss Thomas Maher, both 38, were arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to traffic people and manslaughter earlier today. Police raided their £400,000 home in Warrington, Cheshire and their beauty salon around the corner, named New Hair Donít Care. The pair, who remain in custody, said they sold the cab in October 2018 and had voluntarily gone to the police themselves."
They may have stopped accessing dead people's phones, but little else seems to have changed in Fleet Street.
__________________
He bade me take any rug in the house.
commandlinegamer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 02:36 PM   #66
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,455
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Some the press reporting is frightening. This couple appear to be previous owners of the lorry tractor unit and that has been enough to make them headline news in The Metro;

https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/25/first...orry-10985350/

"A husband and wife named as the last known owners of a lorry containing the bodies of 39 migrants have been pictured. Joanna Maher and haulage firm boss Thomas Maher, both 38, were arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to traffic people and manslaughter earlier today. Police raided their £400,000 home in Warrington, Cheshire and their beauty salon around the corner, named New Hair Donít Care. The pair, who remain in custody, said they sold the cab in October 2018 and had voluntarily gone to the police themselves."
It is hazardous trying to help the police then. Why go voluntarily if involved?
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 02:47 PM   #67
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,210
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And soon after the UK's economy collapses as every truck entering the country has a couple of extra hours added to its journey time. We discussed such delays up and their effects in the last Brexit thread.

Lol

A bit of reality needed here.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 02:50 PM   #68
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,930
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Some the press reporting is frightening. This couple appear to be previous owners of the lorry tractor unit and that has been enough to make them headline news in The Metro;

https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/25/first...orry-10985350/

"A husband and wife named as the last known owners of a lorry containing the bodies of 39 migrants have been pictured. Joanna Maher and haulage firm boss Thomas Maher, both 38, were arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to traffic people and manslaughter earlier today. Police raided their £400,000 home in Warrington, Cheshire and their beauty salon around the corner, named New Hair Donít Care. The pair, who remain in custody, said they sold the cab in October 2018 and had voluntarily gone to the police themselves."
Finding it hard to make sense of this.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 02:55 PM   #69
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,632
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It is hazardous trying to help the police then. Why go voluntarily if involved?
I doubt anyone intended for people to die, although negligence and indifference on part of one or more persons might've resulted in these deaths.

If they were involved with people smuggling, you could easily argue that it's in their interest to show the police that they weren't responsible for the deaths, especially if it's merely a matter of time before the cops come knocking on the front door anyways.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 03:08 PM   #70
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,276
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Lol

A bit of reality needed here.
Yes. By you.
Based on the research commissioned by the DfT and carried out by UCL as part of the Brexit planning.
Quote:
[The study] anticipates that extra customs checks of up to 40 seconds per vehicle would have no impact on the queuing time for outward journeys through Dover.

However, if delays reach 70 seconds per truck, a queue of between 1,200 and 2,724 heavy goods vehicles is expected, leading to tailbacks taking six days to clear.
"[The queue] starts Monday evening and ends by Saturday noon", the UCL estimates. However, if the processing time goes up to 80 seconds the result would simply be "no recovery". The whole country would be gridlocked in a massive traffic jam.
Try comprehending the subject before commenting.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 05:05 PM   #71
IsThisTheLife
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 406
If blame is going to be apportioned, then it lies primarily with those who incentivise and even encourage people to try and enter the UK and other Western countries illegally. ETA >> which starts those making government decisions on immigration policy and border management, but also includes apologists for uncontrolled mass-migration like the idiots progressives on this forum
__________________
"There is no sin except stupidity."

Last edited by IsThisTheLife; 25th October 2019 at 05:11 PM.
IsThisTheLife is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 06:30 PM   #72
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,917
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
If blame is going to be apportioned, then it lies primarily with those who incentivise and even encourage people to try and enter the UK and other Western countries illegally. ETA >> which starts those making government decisions on immigration policy and border management, but also includes apologists for uncontrolled mass-migration like the idiots progressives on this forum
Eh ... I give it about a 2 out of 10 for trollcraft.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 06:43 PM   #73
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,210
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Yes. By you.
Based on the research commissioned by the DfT and carried out by UCL as part of the Brexit planning.


Try comprehending the subject before commenting.
As much as I love your hysteria I was in England in 2000 and other years when massive fuel shortages were going on, truck drivers were doing blockades and people were panic buying.

Queues to petrol stations were about 1/2 a mile long

The economy didn't collapse
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 11:03 PM   #74
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,020
Yes that makes sense:

catsmate: If A happens the economy will collapse
cullennz: When B happened the economy didn't collapse!
Therefore: ......
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 11:09 PM   #75
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,210
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes that makes sense:

catsmate: If A happens the economy will collapse
cullennz: When B happened the economy didn't collapse!
Therefore: ......
B was a worse scenario that actually happened than the imagined concept of A
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2019, 01:33 AM   #76
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,382
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And soon after the UK's economy collapses as every truck entering the country has a couple of extra hours added to its journey time. We discussed such delays up and their effects in the last Brexit thread.
In the case of the refrigerated lorry, it would have taken seconds to open the door and look inside.

By making drivers more responsible for their load, the onus is on them not just to do a reasonable check of the load (if the lorry is packed with crates, I would not expect it to be unloaded and all the crates opened. I would also not expect to miss 10 people lying on top of the crates) but also to be more questioning about its origins, the paperwork, the possibility it is being used for smuggling.

As it is, if this driver is charged and his defence is that he did not know, but he gets convicted, then it very much in the interests of all drivers to be more careful.

If his defence of he did not know works, then sadly we have all drivers with an alliby and they can now turn a blind eye to a horrific crime. That is disgusting.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2019, 01:35 AM   #77
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,382
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Finding it hard to make sense of this.

It is odd and I suspect another example of the terrible press coverage of what has happened. There is a rush to get the most sensational headline and facts are clearly taking a secondary place.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2019, 01:38 AM   #78
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,382
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I doubt anyone intended for people to die, although negligence and indifference on part of one or more persons might've resulted in these deaths.

If they were involved with people smuggling, you could easily argue that it's in their interest to show the police that they weren't responsible for the deaths, especially if it's merely a matter of time before the cops come knocking on the front door anyways.
Questioning a previous keeper of a vehicle for which you have an owner who admits to ownership and a drive who admits to being the driver, is not an enquiry that I would expect so early in such an investigation. It is also not an enquiry that I would justify a house search.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2019, 01:43 AM   #79
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,930
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
B was a worse scenario that actually happened than the imagined concept of A
Except that B wasn't a worse scenario than A. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 26th October 2019 at 01:45 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2019, 02:11 AM   #80
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 17,245
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Some the press reporting is frightening. This couple appear to be previous owners of the lorry tractor unit and that has been enough to make them headline news in The Metro;

https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/25/first...orry-10985350/

"A husband and wife named as the last known owners of a lorry containing the bodies of 39 migrants have been pictured. Joanna Maher and haulage firm boss Thomas Maher, both 38, were arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to traffic people and manslaughter earlier today. Police raided their £400,000 home in Warrington, Cheshire and their beauty salon around the corner, named New Hair Donít Care. The pair, who remain in custody, said they sold the cab in October 2018 and had voluntarily gone to the police themselves."
I notice the police have proactively strongly denied they ever revealed the identity of the arrested (covering their backs). It would seem it was his friends and relatives of the 25-year old truck driver who revealed his ID to the press, and likewise, this 'Irish couple from Cheshire', who came out claiming they had contacted the police (and press, it seems). I note the Finnish newspapers haven't named them (or least, not my particular broadsheet).

I cannot help thinking the police are under pressure to make speedy arrests to bring the perps to justice and there may not as yet be anything concrete to link these people. Visions of the Gatwick 'drones' fiasco springs to mind when a couple plaster all over the front pages as being the perps of the pesky drones were freed without charge (it was the guy's boss/father-in-law who outed him).

In addition, by being allowed to reveal the suspect's age without breaking confidentiality ('man aged 48 arrested at Stansted, truck driver aged 25, parents flying to England') it is easy for people to work out who has been arrested. The couple 'aged 38' are so obviously the professed 'former owners' of the truck and they do have two grey Range Rovers with personalised number plates, a chevrolet sports car and a very nice house in a posh area, despite only running a hairdressing / beauty salon business.

Money launderers often set up businesses which are little more than a front to hide their real source of income.

I once perchanced to enter what looked like a grocery store in a seedy part of Kensal Rise. I was taken aback to see it was virtually empty and dark inside. I felt several dozen invisible eyes secretly watching me, it was unnerving, and I quickly hurried away from that area as fast as possible, remembering it was notorious for crime.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.