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Old 26th October 2019, 02:13 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And soon after the UK's economy collapses as every truck entering the country has a couple of extra hours added to its journey time. We discussed such delays up and their effects in the last Brexit thread.
The government and press seem to have gone quiet but after Brexit the refuge border camps at Calais are to be passed back into UK hands. That'll be chaos as there will no longer be shared security info (if a no-deal).
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Old 26th October 2019, 02:16 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In the case of the refrigerated lorry, it would have taken seconds to open the door and look inside.

By making drivers more responsible for their load, the onus is on them not just to do a reasonable check of the load (if the lorry is packed with crates, I would not expect it to be unloaded and all the crates opened. I would also not expect to miss 10 people lying on top of the crates) but also to be more questioning about its origins, the paperwork, the possibility it is being used for smuggling.

As it is, if this driver is charged and his defence is that he did not know, but he gets convicted, then it very much in the interests of all drivers to be more careful.

If his defence of he did not know works, then sadly we have all drivers with an alliby and they can now turn a blind eye to a horrific crime. That is disgusting.
On the converse, one could ask why the truck driver decided to 'break the seal' at 1:40am when there was no docking bay in sight.
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Old 26th October 2019, 02:20 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Questioning a previous keeper of a vehicle for which you have an owner who admits to ownership and a drive who admits to being the driver, is not an enquiry that I would expect so early in such an investigation. It is also not an enquiry that I would justify a house search.
Probably the great show of wealth, which raised their suspicions.
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Old 26th October 2019, 06:36 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Probably the great show of wealth, which raised their suspicions.
The Proceeds of Crime Act is a great way to hit back at criminals.
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Old 26th October 2019, 06:48 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
As much as I love your hysteria I was in England in 2000 and other years when massive fuel shortages were going on, truck drivers were doing blockades and people were panic buying.

Queues to petrol stations were about 1/2 a mile long

The economy didn't collapse

The economy didn't collapse because the whole thing lasted about a week at the most.

I remember it well. I had the morning off work and had driven into the nearby town for something. On the way home I saw a queue forming outside the petrol station on the main road. I decided to go to the petrol station in the village to fill up. I discovered they had no petrol left at all. I turned back to the one on the main road, waited in the queue which wasn't terribly long at that point, and filled my tank. The assistant told me they thought they'd run out by about four o'clock at the rate it was going.

I then went to work and got hold of all my staff and advised everyone who had less than half a tank of petrol (indeed, maybe less than three quarters) to go to the open petrol station and fill up. They duly did so.

We had a crisis meeting with the boss of our courier firm, whom we relied on to fetch the pathology samples our business analysed. He said as our business was vital and we were also his best customer, he was reserving all the fuel he'd been able to acquire for our clients. He had also managed to fill all his vehicles at that point.

Thus the crisis didn't affect us at all. The whole thing had blown over before we actually needed to buy any more petrol. I think a lot of businesses managed in a similar way, by seeing what was coming and getting hold of the available stocks before the strike really bit. But if it had gone on much longer, a lot of people would have been in big trouble.
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Old 26th October 2019, 07:41 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Finding it hard to make sense of this.
To be fair, the police are unlikely to say "they must be innocent, they told us so themselves!"
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Old 26th October 2019, 08:50 AM   #87
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I saw news of an absolutely heartrending text message sent by one of the victims to her parents when she knew she was dying of suffocation. This really is the most appalling tragedy.
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Old 26th October 2019, 09:28 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I saw news of an absolutely heartrending text message sent by one of the victims to her parents when she knew she was dying of suffocation. This really is the most appalling tragedy.
Has that been confirmed?
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Old 26th October 2019, 09:37 AM   #89
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Driver charged with manslaughter of 39 people

Quote:
A lorry driver has been charged with the manslaughter of 39 people found dead inside a refrigerated trailer.

Maurice Robinson, 25, was arrested after the bodies of 31 men and eight women were found in Grays on Wednesday.

He is further charged with people trafficking, immigration and money laundering offences, Essex Police said.

Mr Robinson, of Laurel Drive, Craigavon, Northern Ireland, is due before Chelmsford Magistrates' Court on Monday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-50196265
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Old 26th October 2019, 09:39 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Has that been confirmed?

I don't know. I read it on Twitter on my phone this morning and didn't note the source. The poster said the text was originally in Vietnamese and what was posted was a translation.
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Old 26th October 2019, 09:39 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Has that been confirmed?
Yes, it's definitely an appalling tragedy.
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Old 26th October 2019, 10:49 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Driver charged with manslaughter of 39 people

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-50196265
I'm not getting this. The driver was in possession of the container for 35 minutes. The container would have been already sealed for hours before he hooked it up to his tractor, so it is very unlikely that the 39 people were alive in the container for all those hours beforehand, and all suddenly up and died in the 35 minutes between when he hooked the container to his tractor and when he stopped and opened the container.

If they were already dead, how can he be physically respnsible for their deaths?
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Old 26th October 2019, 11:01 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes, it's definitely an appalling tragedy.
I was asking if it has been confirmed that the victims were from Vietnam?
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Old 26th October 2019, 11:10 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I'm not getting this. The driver was in possession of the container for 35 minutes. The container would have been already sealed for hours before he hooked it up to his tractor, so it is very unlikely that the 39 people were alive in the container for all those hours beforehand, and all suddenly up and died in the 35 minutes between when he hooked the container to his tractor and when he stopped and opened the container.

If they were already dead, how can he be physically respnsible for their deaths?
Perhaps with the other charges, they are considering him part of the same organization that killed them. Like charging the getaway driver with murder because one of the bank robbers shot the manager.
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Old 26th October 2019, 11:13 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I was asking if it has been confirmed that the victims were from Vietnam?

Ah. I think it's been confirmed that at least some of them were.
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Old 26th October 2019, 11:15 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I'm not getting this. The driver was in possession of the container for 35 minutes. The container would have been already sealed for hours before he hooked it up to his tractor, so it is very unlikely that the 39 people were alive in the container for all those hours beforehand, and all suddenly up and died in the 35 minutes between when he hooked the container to his tractor and when he stopped and opened the container.

If they were already dead, how can he be physically respnsible for their deaths?

If he knew he was taking part in people smuggling then he's probably guilty as part of the whole operation. I think it's known as "joint enterprise". They may have good evidence that he was a willing participant in the operation and not just an innocent hired lorry driver.
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Old 26th October 2019, 11:20 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If he knew he was taking part in people smuggling then he's probably guilty as part of the whole operation. I think it's known as "joint enterprise". They may have good evidence that he was a willing participant in the operation and not just an innocent hired lorry driver.
Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Perhaps with the other charges, they are considering him part of the same organization that killed them. Like charging the getaway driver with murder because one of the bank robbers shot the manager.
OK then.

If they have already proved that, then its pretty good and quick work by the Essex Police.
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Old 26th October 2019, 11:28 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I'm not getting this. The driver was in possession of the container for 35 minutes. The container would have been already sealed for hours before he hooked it up to his tractor, so it is very unlikely that the 39 people were alive in the container for all those hours beforehand, and all suddenly up and died in the 35 minutes between when he hooked the container to his tractor and when he stopped and opened the container.

If they were already dead, how can he be physically respnsible for their deaths?
I don't get that either, but maybe there is evidence that they could still have been alive when he collected the trailer.
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Old 26th October 2019, 11:43 AM   #99
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Nessie, "joint enterprise". They don't need to have proved he was knowingly engaged in people smuggling so long as they have decent evidence suggesting he was. Presumably they have enough of that to get it past the English equivalent of the PF.
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Old 26th October 2019, 11:56 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Nessie, "joint enterprise". They don't need to have proved he was knowingly engaged in people smuggling so long as they have decent evidence suggesting he was. Presumably they have enough of that to get it past the English equivalent of the PF.
The CPS website is blank when it comes to joint enterprise;

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...oate-liability

There is doubt over joint enterprise;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35598896

The CPS instead has secondary liability;

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...nd-accessories

"The guidance sets out how charging decisions are to be approached in cases involving persons who assist or encourage another to commit a crime. These persons are known as accessories or secondary parties."

"Manslaughter
D2 will not be guilty of murder but will be guilty of manslaughter where:
D2 is a party to a violent attack on another without an intent to assist in causing death or really serious harm, but the violence escalates and results in death.
D2 participates by encouragement or assistance in any other unlawful act which all sober and reasonable people would realise carried the risk of some harm (not necessarily serious) to another, and death results. The test is objective."

D2 is an accessory or secondary party.
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Old 26th October 2019, 12:46 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Eh ... I give it about a 2 out of 10 for trollcraft.
Just compare it to his Oxfordian nonsense.
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Old 26th October 2019, 12:48 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
As much as I love your hysteria I was in England in 2000 and other years when massive fuel shortages were going on, truck drivers were doing blockades and people were panic buying.

Queues to petrol stations were about 1/2 a mile long

The economy didn't collapse
One anecdote versus a detailed, scientific study, I wonder which has more credibility...
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Old 26th October 2019, 12:49 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes that makes sense:

catsmate: If A happens the economy will collapse
cullennz: When B happened the economy didn't collapse!
Therefore: ......
Yeah, his usual.
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Old 26th October 2019, 12:50 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In the case of the refrigerated lorry, it would have taken seconds to open the door and look inside.

By making drivers more responsible for their load, the onus is on them not just to do a reasonable check of the load (if the lorry is packed with crates, I would not expect it to be unloaded and all the crates opened. I would also not expect to miss 10 people lying on top of the crates) but also to be more questioning about its origins, the paperwork, the possibility it is being used for smuggling.

As it is, if this driver is charged and his defence is that he did not know, but he gets convicted, then it very much in the interests of all drivers to be more careful.

If his defence of he did not know works, then sadly we have all drivers with an alliby and they can now turn a blind eye to a horrific crime. That is disgusting.
Assuming there was no wall of legitimate looking boxes.
So, if your idea was implemented, how will theft and smuggling be handled given that the current system of seals will be rendered useless?
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Old 26th October 2019, 12:54 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I'm not getting this. The driver was in possession of the container for 35 minutes. The container would have been already sealed for hours before he hooked it up to his tractor, so it is very unlikely that the 39 people were alive in the container for all those hours beforehand, and all suddenly up and died in the 35 minutes between when he hooked the container to his tractor and when he stopped and opened the container.

If they were already dead, how can he be physically respnsible for their deaths?
Yes it does look rather odd, especially given the murder arrest. Perhaps the CoD was hypothermia and the cooling was activated by him.
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Old 26th October 2019, 01:09 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Assuming there was no wall of legitimate looking boxes.
So, if your idea was implemented, how will theft and smuggling be handled given that the current system of seals will be rendered useless?
How are immigrants getting round the seals? If it is easy to unseal and then reseal lorries then maybe we should be looking to change the system.

Now the driver has been charged, maybe that will make other drivers think more about their role, unintended or not, in people smuggling.
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Old 26th October 2019, 01:12 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Yes it does look rather odd, especially given the murder arrest. Perhaps the CoD was hypothermia and the cooling was activated by him.
From the CPS site on charging (D2 is a person who acts as an accessory or secondary party);

""Manslaughter
D2 will not be guilty of murder but will be guilty of manslaughter where:
D2 is a party to a violent attack on another without an intent to assist in causing death or really serious harm, but the violence escalates and results in death.
D2 participates by encouragement or assistance in any other unlawful act which all sober and reasonable people would realise carried the risk of some harm (not necessarily serious) to another, and death results. The test is objective."

Knowingly assisting in the transporting of people trapped inside a refrigerated tractor unit who have been there for hours clearly meets the charging test for manslaughter.
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Old 26th October 2019, 01:14 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
One anecdote versus a detailed, scientific study, I wonder which has more credibility...
Reality

One has actually happened, one is a bunch of dudes playing on a computer
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Old 26th October 2019, 01:53 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The CPS website is blank when it comes to joint enterprise;

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...oate-liability

There is doubt over joint enterprise;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35598896

The CPS instead has secondary liability;

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...nd-accessories

"The guidance sets out how charging decisions are to be approached in cases involving persons who assist or encourage another to commit a crime. These persons are known as accessories or secondary parties."

"Manslaughter
D2 will not be guilty of murder but will be guilty of manslaughter where:
D2 is a party to a violent attack on another without an intent to assist in causing death or really serious harm, but the violence escalates and results in death.
D2 participates by encouragement or assistance in any other unlawful act which all sober and reasonable people would realise carried the risk of some harm (not necessarily serious) to another, and death results. The test is objective."

D2 is an accessory or secondary party.

Maybe they changed the law then. I know that joint enterprise was held to be responsible for a number of miscarriages of justice.
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Old 26th October 2019, 02:39 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Maybe they changed the law then. I know that joint enterprise was held to be responsible for a number of miscarriages of justice.
There was a change in interpretation of the law recently.

I just realised Nessie already posted the link.


I'm not sure if it would relate to the current case as it appears to affect the issue of foresight.

Last edited by Elaedith; 26th October 2019 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 26th October 2019, 02:45 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The CPS website is blank when it comes to joint enterprise;

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...oate-liability

There is doubt over joint enterprise;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35598896

The CPS instead has secondary liability;

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...nd-accessories

"The guidance sets out how charging decisions are to be approached in cases involving persons who assist or encourage another to commit a crime. These persons are known as accessories or secondary parties."

"Manslaughter
D2 will not be guilty of murder but will be guilty of manslaughter where:
D2 is a party to a violent attack on another without an intent to assist in causing death or really serious harm, but the violence escalates and results in death.
D2 participates by encouragement or assistance in any other unlawful act which all sober and reasonable people would realise carried the risk of some harm (not necessarily serious) to another, and death results. The test is objective."

D2 is an accessory or secondary party.
There is a report on joint enterprise by the TBIJ here:

https://www.thebureauinvestigates.co...-investigation

The three CPS principles are on page 11. This predates the Supreme Court ruling you linked to, but I'm not sure if that fundamentally changes the principles or just affects the role of foresight.
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Old 26th October 2019, 02:46 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Reality

One has actually happened, one is a bunch of dudes playing on a computer
No. One is an incomparable, irrelevant anecdote and the other is a scientific analysis by experts.
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Old 26th October 2019, 03:05 PM   #113
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In many USA states, he could be charged with "felony murder" -- being part of a crime in which a death occurred, even though he didn't directly cause it. People have been charged with that even when the death was that of their criminal partner who was shot by the police.
I'd guess in this case he knew he was picking up immigrants and found them dead when he stopped to let them out.
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Old 26th October 2019, 11:54 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
From the CPS site on charging (D2 is a person who acts as an accessory or secondary party);

""Manslaughter
D2 will not be guilty of murder but will be guilty of manslaughter where:
D2 is a party to a violent attack on another without an intent to assist in causing death or really serious harm, but the violence escalates and results in death.
D2 participates by encouragement or assistance in any other unlawful act which all sober and reasonable people would realise carried the risk of some harm (not necessarily serious) to another, and death results. The test is objective."

Knowingly assisting in the transporting of people trapped inside a refrigerated tractor unit who have been there for hours clearly meets the charging test for manslaughter.
He was looking at a mass murder charge originally so it appears the driver has satisfied police he personally did not contribute directly to the deaths and that the event happened before reaching Purfleet.

He is looking at fourteen years inside despite immediately calling the emergency services and seeking help.
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Old 26th October 2019, 11:55 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
In many USA states, he could be charged with "felony murder" -- being part of a crime in which a death occurred, even though he didn't directly cause it. People have been charged with that even when the death was that of their criminal partner who was shot by the police.
I'd guess in this case he knew he was picking up immigrants and found them dead when he stopped to let them out.
People in the UK have been done for manslaughter simply for providing a service which negligently led to death. For example, kiddie bouncy castles,Network Rail (some of my work colleagues were on that Leeds train that overturned, thankfully all right).
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Old 27th October 2019, 12:02 AM   #116
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How poor is the quality of the press these days. It reported:

- the driver was one of the UK's 'worse mass murderers'

- the victims must have been Bulgarians as the vehicle was registered in Bulgaria

- the victims must be Chinese because they look it

- the above assumption has led to long articles about 'snakehead' gangsters from China and past notorious Chinese people smugglers

- on hearing the victims may actually be Vietnamese, the tabloids quickly discovered a bunch of Vietnamese refuges at Calais looking for passage to England.
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Old 27th October 2019, 12:43 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How poor is the quality of the press these days. It reported:

- the driver was one of the UK's 'worse mass murderers'

- the victims must have been Bulgarians as the vehicle was registered in Bulgaria

- the victims must be Chinese because they look it

- the above assumption has led to long articles about 'snakehead' gangsters from China and past notorious Chinese people smugglers

- on hearing the victims may actually be Vietnamese, the tabloids quickly discovered a bunch of Vietnamese refuges at Calais looking for passage to England.
Personally think the driver is obviously not a murderer, but should at least look in the truck before driving off, given the "wall of boxes" scenario post earlier hiding people was pants.

He ended up opening the trailer. Looking at 39 dead people and ringing 999 from what I read
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Old 27th October 2019, 02:46 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Maybe they changed the law then. I know that joint enterprise was held to be responsible for a number of miscarriages of justice.
It was just somewhere in my fading memory that there had been an issue over joint enterprise, which was why I was not sure about the initial reports that he was arrested under suspicion for manslaughter.
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Old 27th October 2019, 02:50 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How poor is the quality of the press these days. It reported:

- the driver was one of the UK's 'worse mass murderers'

- the victims must have been Bulgarians as the vehicle was registered in Bulgaria

- the victims must be Chinese because they look it

- the above assumption has led to long articles about 'snakehead' gangsters from China and past notorious Chinese people smugglers

- on hearing the victims may actually be Vietnamese, the tabloids quickly discovered a bunch of Vietnamese refuges at Calais looking for passage to England.
Add to that suggestions it was a Bulgarian gang doing the smuggling. The press coverage has been very poor.

It now looks like it was a Northern Irish gang, using a Bulgarian cover to smuggle Vietnamese people.
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Old 27th October 2019, 02:55 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Add to that suggestions it was a Bulgarian gang doing the smuggling. The press coverage has been very poor.

It now looks like it was a Northern Irish gang, using a Bulgarian cover to smuggle Vietnamese people.
It's been a textbox example of the press managing to weave a whole heap of inconsequential details together to fill column inches, because they can't get any real accurate information. "X lives in a £X00,000 house... their business has a turnover/profit of £X,000... Holidays abroad... etc." All the "journalists" have done is checked the Land Registry and Companies House, and got as close to the social media accounts of those involved as possible. Most of us here could collate and throw together this sort of stuff.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 27th October 2019 at 03:16 AM.
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