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Old 27th October 2019, 03:06 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's been a textbox example of the press managing to weave a whole heap of inconsequential details together to fill column inches, because they can't get any real accurate information. "X lives in a £X00,000 house... their business has a turnover/profit of £X,000... Holidas abroad... etc." All the "journalists" have done is checked the Land Registry and Companies House, and got as close to the social media accounts of those involved as possible. Most of us here could collate and throw together this sort of stuff.
Yes. I saw this first hand when a friend and work-colleague died. The press described him as (IIRC) a London company director. He was an IT support specialist, he happened to be a joint owner of a plane which was registered to a company for financial reasons; the press obviously found documentation of the latter, but not the former. I think part of the problem is that everything is presented as fact, when there is often doubt and speculation.


Anyway, some of the inaccuracies were understandable. Few of the victims were carrying papers, but I think I heard it reported that some of them had (forged) Chinese ones. At the moment, I don't think any have been identified.
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Old 27th October 2019, 05:07 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
In many USA states, he could be charged with "felony murder" -- being part of a crime in which a death occurred, even though he didn't directly cause it. People have been charged with that even when the death was that of their criminal partner who was shot by the police.
I'd guess in this case he knew he was picking up immigrants and found them dead when he stopped to let them out.
Felony Murder doesn't exist in the UK or Ireland, having been abolished decades ago.
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Old 27th October 2019, 05:08 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Personally think the driver is obviously not a murderer, but should at least look in the truck before driving off, given the "wall of boxes" scenario post earlier hiding people was pants.

He ended up opening the trailer. Looking at 39 dead people and ringing 999 from what I read
The container was sealed. A driver is not expected to, nor allowed, to break such seals.
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Old 27th October 2019, 06:23 AM   #124
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Except, didn't he break the seal in the car park?
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Old 27th October 2019, 07:26 AM   #125
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There is no way that they just quietly froze to death inside the container. At some point they must have realised they were in danger and tried to get out or make noises to get help.
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Old 27th October 2019, 09:22 AM   #126
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If the text message I saw is legit (it may not be, I struggle to see how a legitimate message would have reached the public domain at this stage), they suffocated rather than froze.

However, I think the timings suggest that they were already dead before he took custody of the container, in which case he's not the one who would have been ignoring the cries for help.
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Old 27th October 2019, 09:24 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If the text message I saw is legit (it may not be, I struggle to see how a legitimate message would have reached the public domain at this stage), they suffocated rather than froze.
The family that received the text message got in touch with the BBC.
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Old 27th October 2019, 11:23 AM   #128
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Ah, so it is legit. I took it at face value when I saw it but when people started asking if it was verified I realised I had no idea. Poor girl. Poor family.
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Old 27th October 2019, 12:18 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Personally think the driver is obviously not a murderer, but should at least look in the truck before driving off
You really do seems clueless when it comes to things in real life, don't you.

What could the driver possibly achieve by looking in the back of this truck?



Do you expect him to get a forklift and unload every pallet, and then open each box to make sure its contents match the truck's bill of lading, or to make sure there are not boxes of drugs, stolen goods or other contraband inside, or to check that there are not people being smuggled in front of the wall of pallets. Remember, at this point, any people in there would want to be smuggled, they will stay very, very quiet, so you would have to unload most of the boxes to find them.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
...given the "wall of boxes" scenario post earlier hiding people was pants.
Err, the "wall of boxes" scenario is NOT pants!! Hiding people between or behind stacks of cargo on the back of a truck is a very common way to smuggle them across borders.

https://nypost.com/2019/07/04/white-...ed-into-truck/







For heaven's sake, get a bloody clue before you post!
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Old 27th October 2019, 12:26 PM   #130
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Getting drivers to check loads, as much as they possibly can, increases the likelihood of detection and could save lives. Just because in some cases people are well hidden and would be likely to be missed in a basic visual check, does not mean no checks should be done at all.
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Old 27th October 2019, 02:08 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In the case of the refrigerated lorry, it would have taken seconds to open the door and look inside.
Except that the driver is legally not allowed to break the customs seals.
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Old 27th October 2019, 02:15 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Except that the driver is legally not allowed to break the customs seals.
What customs seals?
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Old 27th October 2019, 02:18 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You really do seems clueless when it comes to things in real life, don't you.

What could the driver possibly achieve by looking in the back of this truck?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9aoc6c9xjh...ruck.jpg?raw=1

Do you expect him to get a forklift and unload every pallet, and then open each box to make sure its contents match the truck's bill of lading, or to make sure there are not boxes of drugs, stolen goods or other contraband inside, or to check that there are not people being smuggled in front of the wall of pallets. Remember, at this point, any people in there would want to be smuggled, they will stay very, very quiet, so you would have to unload most of the boxes to find them.



Err, the "wall of boxes" scenario is NOT pants!! Hiding people between or behind stacks of cargo on the back of a truck is a very common way to smuggle them across borders.

https://nypost.com/2019/07/04/white-...ed-into-truck/

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehhes9311o...uck1.png?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lnxf0ckmwe...uck2.jpg?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08via69yrc...uck3.jpg?raw=1

For heaven's sake, get a bloody clue before you post!
I meant in this case, which is why I went on to specifically say what happened in this case
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Old 27th October 2019, 03:02 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Getting drivers to check loads, as much as they possibly can, increases the likelihood of detection and could save lives. Just because in some cases people are well hidden and would be likely to be missed in a basic visual check, does not mean no checks should be done at all.
On the other hand, the way the police investigation appears to be going suggests that the people were not stowaways and that at least one of the drivers was aware they were there; in that case mandating checks wouldn't have made much difference. It may be that the driver who brought the trailer to England was in the dark, and that's why the tragedy occurred, in which case you do have a point.
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Old 27th October 2019, 04:03 PM   #135
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A lot of trailers are sent across on their own, loaded and unloaded from the ship with small 'donkey' tractors that belong to the port.
they will be dropped by one driver and picked up by a different driver and tractor at the other end.
Teesport gets two Roro ships a day that work in that manner. They are spartan things compared to what you typically think of as a Roro ferry, trailers can be packed quite tight aboard them.
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Old 27th October 2019, 11:23 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What customs seals?
The customs seals on the back of containers that are being shipped/trucked across borders.

You cannot just make up some rule and say that this driver should have done this. You would have to apply that rule to EVERY driver picking up EVERY container or backload, EVERY time they pick one up. You would be asking drivers to break the law (it is illegal for any unauthorised person to break any kind of seal on a container). AT worst, he could be prosecuted for tampering with and HM Customs security device - at best, he could be help personlly responsible for anythng on the waybill hat was found to be missing from the shipment. He could lose his job, or his onctract
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Old 27th October 2019, 11:38 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The customs seals on the back of containers that are being shipped/trucked across borders.

You cannot just make up some rule and say that this driver should have done this. You would have to apply that rule to EVERY driver picking up EVERY container or backload, EVERY time they pick one up. You would be asking drivers to break the law (it is illegal for any unauthorised person to break any kind of seal on a container). AT worst, he could be prosecuted for tampering with and HM Customs security device - at best, he could be help personlly responsible for anythng on the waybill hat was found to be missing from the shipment. He could lose his job, or his onctract

So make them put cheap cameras on the ceilings of trailers.
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Old 28th October 2019, 12:10 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So make them put cheap cameras on the ceilings of trailers.
Your cameras will need a recording device as well (a camara is not much use without a means to record what it sees). The cheapest option would probably be something like a trail camera - the best prices for one of those comes in at around $100.

There are about 20 million shipping containers world wide - so fitting every one of them out with a camera will cost about $2 billion plus installation costs.

Who do you expect to pay for this?

And that's just the shipping containers, then you have millions of trucks and, truck trailers to fit out.
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Old 28th October 2019, 12:20 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Your cameras will need a recording device as well (a camara is not much use without a means to record what it sees). The cheapest option would probably be something like a trail camera - the best prices for one of those comes in at around $100.

There are about 20 million shipping containers world wide - so fitting every one of them out with a camera will cost about $2 billion plus installation costs.

Who do you expect to pay for this?

And that's just the shipping containers, then you have millions of trucks and, truck trailers to fit out.
I was talking about truck trailer units going to the UK, but feel free to move the old goal posts

Edit: And doesn't need recording

I just needs to show the driver what is in the trailer when he loads it
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Old 28th October 2019, 01:19 AM   #140
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Apparently, it is standard for UK delivery trucks (for example, delivery of frozen or refrigerated foods to supermarkets) to have a button on the inside so that anyone accidentally trapped inside can simply push it to get out. I understand that is also the case for walk-in refrigerators in restaurants.

Maybe containers could be replaced or have installed a similar device. After all, what goes into a container has to come out so shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

Or perhaps an alarm system, whereby anyone trapped inside can set it off, to show a flashing red light on the outside, together with a siren.
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Old 28th October 2019, 01:36 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I was talking about truck trailer units going to the UK
Ah, I see. You think people smuggling is exclusively UK problem!

Got it!
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Old 28th October 2019, 02:01 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ah, I see. You think people smuggling is exclusively UK problem!

Got it!
No

I was only talking on the subject of the UK problem.

You know. Like what the thread is about.
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Old 28th October 2019, 02:06 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Apparently, it is standard for UK delivery trucks (for example, delivery of frozen or refrigerated foods to supermarkets) to have a button on the inside so that anyone accidentally trapped inside can simply push it to get out. I understand that is also the case for walk-in refrigerators in restaurants.

Maybe containers could be replaced or have installed a similar device. After all, what goes into a container has to come out so shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

Or perhaps an alarm system, whereby anyone trapped inside can set it off, to show a flashing red light on the outside, together with a siren.
Agree, but if British drivers are picking them up from coming from overseas, then rules are different.

The customs tag thing is negated when the trailer reaches the destination as an aside.

Just demand cheap live cameras in trailers fed to an iPad on all trailers entering the UK.

Freighters don't want to pay 20 pound for them **** em
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Old 28th October 2019, 03:48 AM   #144
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Cameras are unlikely to work inside containers. Their view could easily be blocked by boxes. About the only way to detect humans in containers is via x rays examples of the result is in this post above http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12871661

One problem is that you need enough machines to be able to check every container without huge queues. This will get very expensive, very quickly. This is one of the real reasons why these people died. The driver is only a bit player in all of this.
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Old 28th October 2019, 05:06 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Cameras are unlikely to work inside containers. Their view could easily be blocked by boxes. About the only way to detect humans in containers is via x rays examples of the result is in this post above http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12871661

One problem is that you need enough machines to be able to check every container without huge queues. This will get very expensive, very quickly. This is one of the real reasons why these people died. The driver is only a bit player in all of this.
Actually CO2 concentrations are a quick first tool to use.
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Old 28th October 2019, 07:04 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The customs seals on the back of containers that are being shipped/trucked across borders.

You cannot just make up some rule and say that this driver should have done this. You would have to apply that rule to EVERY driver picking up EVERY container or backload, EVERY time they pick one up. You would be asking drivers to break the law (it is illegal for any unauthorised person to break any kind of seal on a container). AT worst, he could be prosecuted for tampering with and HM Customs security device - at best, he could be help personlly responsible for anythng on the waybill hat was found to be missing from the shipment. He could lose his job, or his onctract
I thought that having seals was no longer the case since we are in a customs union.

Plus there are well known images of immigrants rushing lorries in France and opening them up to get on board. There was a photo yesterday of a curtain sided lorry with peoples faces peaking out of a hole.

I think it is reasonable that all drivers should do a basic common sense check of their load. If they can show it had a seal or was full to the brim and cannot be checked, then, as is the case with many laws, they have a get out.
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Old 28th October 2019, 07:49 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I thought that having seals was no longer the case since we are in a customs union.
I don't think seals would be much good anyway. Perhaps they could clap or catch a fish in their mouth or even balance a ball on their nose when they detected human life.

They could, however, simply swim across the channel and meet you at whatever side you were heading, so there is always that.
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Old 28th October 2019, 07:54 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Felony Murder doesn't exist in the UK or Ireland, having been abolished decades ago.
The rule was abolished in England and Wales by section 1 of the Homicide Act 1957, and in Northern Ireland by section 8 of the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 1966; but its effect is preserved by the application of the common law principle of joint enterprise. In England and Wales, the definition of murder requires only an intent to cause grievous bodily harm to the victim, rather than specific intent to kill; the effect is the same as that of the felony murder rule applied to crimes of personal violence, though not to all felonies.

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Old 28th October 2019, 08:20 AM   #149
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A rumour/theory I heard today is that when transporting people in the refrigerated containers, they are told to wear warm clothes and that the temp will be set to 4 degrees. But, when passing any possible check the temp is lowered to -20 to get the unit working and not raise suspicion. That may have been done and then not put back up again in time.
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Old 28th October 2019, 08:43 AM   #150
Mr Fied
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I thought that having seals was no longer the case since we are in a customs union.

Plus there are well known images of immigrants rushing lorries in France and opening them up to get on board. There was a photo yesterday of a curtain sided lorry with peoples faces peaking out of a hole.

I think it is reasonable that all drivers should do a basic common sense check of their load. If they can show it had a seal or was full to the brim and cannot be checked, then, as is the case with many laws, they have a get out.
It is a drivers responsibility to check their vehicle before entering the UK.

If any stowaways are found on board the driver is liable to a fine for each person found.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/secure-y...al-immigration

Obviously this only applies to drivers bringing in a vehicle, not when a trailer or container is delivered to a port for a driver to collect.
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Old 28th October 2019, 09:02 AM   #151
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Pretty sure it's not the driver's responsibility to check the interior of a container that Customs has already checked and sealed.
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Old 28th October 2019, 09:18 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Pretty sure it's not the driver's responsibility to check the interior of a container that Customs has already checked and sealed.
They have to check for any obvious signs of entry, as well as checking any "hiding places", such as wheel arches, external compartments etc.

They are also expected to check the roofs of trailers for signs of forced entry.

If anything is found this must be reported to customs.

If coming through France, this can be reported to UK customs before leaving for the UK. Even if reported the driver can still be held responsible unless they can convince customs that they have taken all reasonable precautions.

This also applies to coach drivers, as there have been cases of stowaways found under the coach, in the luggage bays and even in the engine bay.

I have driven both lorries and coaches across Europe, and for all the precautions one can take it is still scary when entering the UK in case anyone is found on your vehicle. Some owner drivers have been bankrupted by the fines, and quite a few drivers have lost their jobs over this.
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Old 29th October 2019, 02:58 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
They have to check for any obvious signs of entry, as well as checking any "hiding places", such as wheel arches, external compartments etc.

They are also expected to check the roofs of trailers for signs of forced entry.

If anything is found this must be reported to customs.

If coming through France, this can be reported to UK customs before leaving for the UK. Even if reported the driver can still be held responsible unless they can convince customs that they have taken all reasonable precautions.

This also applies to coach drivers, as there have been cases of stowaways found under the coach, in the luggage bays and even in the engine bay.

I have driven both lorries and coaches across Europe, and for all the precautions one can take it is still scary when entering the UK in case anyone is found on your vehicle. Some owner drivers have been bankrupted by the fines, and quite a few drivers have lost their jobs over this.
OK, so what I was suggesting, is already in place.

That will surely form part of the evidence against Robinson, whether or not he did the basic expected checks.
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Old 29th October 2019, 08:21 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
OK, so what I was suggesting, is already in place.

That will surely form part of the evidence against Robinson, whether or not he did the basic expected checks.
I'm not sure that applies, as he picked up a trailer already in the UK.

He is liable for checking that his trailer is roadworthy, but as it had already passed customs (I believe), he wouldn't necessarily be liable for the contents of a sealed unit.
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Old 29th October 2019, 11:14 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Cameras are unlikely to work inside containers. Their view could easily be blocked by boxes.
Not to mention, of course, that the inside of a closed container is pitch black, so a camera is not going to see anything anyway (but I expect cullennz to be along soon to demand that these containers and truck backs should be fitted with internal floodlighting so that the cameras will work)

The only cameras that could work in such a dark space would be infra-red, so there goes the "cheap camera" idea.
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Old 29th October 2019, 11:18 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
I'm not sure that applies, as he picked up a trailer already in the UK.

He is liable for checking that his trailer is roadworthy, but as it had already passed customs (I believe), he wouldn't necessarily be liable for the contents of a sealed unit.
Also, customs are not the only people who seal containers and truck backs. Transport companies often use anti-tampering devices to prevent pilfering, and things "falling of the back of the truck".
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Old 29th October 2019, 11:25 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not to mention, of course, that the inside of a closed container is pitch black, so a camera is not going to see anything anyway (but I expect cullennz to be along soon to demand that these containers and truck backs should be fitted with internal floodlighting so that the cameras will work)

The only cameras that could work in such a dark space would be infra-red, so there goes the "cheap camera" idea.
If the camera is active IR it wouldn't be that expensive but it would still require an illuminator. A passive IR, i.e. thermographic, camera would be quite expensive though.
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Old 29th October 2019, 01:26 PM   #158
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-50221753

"Two brothers are wanted on suspicion of manslaughter over 39 people found dead in a lorry in Essex.
Ronan Hughes, 40, and Christopher Hughes, 34, from Armagh in Northern Ireland, are also wanted by police on suspicion of human trafficking."

It would appear that the NI connection has been established.
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Old 31st October 2019, 10:17 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-50221753

"Two brothers are wanted on suspicion of manslaughter over 39 people found dead in a lorry in Essex.
Ronan Hughes, 40, and Christopher Hughes, 34, from Armagh in Northern Ireland, are also wanted by police on suspicion of human trafficking."

It would appear that the NI connection has been established.
It seems Ronan Hughes is the owner of the lorry and in addition both the wives appear to run hairdressing salons ('cash only'). It does seem to scream money laundering.

However, I notice despite the claim of the prosecutor about a huge international ring, there only seems to be the two brothers, Mo Robinson and a fourth man (aged 48) on their radar.

I'm guessing Mo Robinson is your archetypal cheeky chappy from Norn right at the bottom of the ladder who saw himself as some kind of subcontractor rather than an international human trafficker. He'll take the rap whilst the real Mr or Mrs Big masterminding it all enjoys their round the world cruises.
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Old 31st October 2019, 10:36 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Yes. I saw this first hand when a friend and work-colleague died. The press described him as (IIRC) a London company director. He was an IT support specialist, he happened to be a joint owner of a plane which was registered to a company for financial reasons; the press obviously found documentation of the latter, but not the former. I think part of the problem is that everything is presented as fact, when there is often doubt and speculation.
....
I would contend that that's not wrong, just incomplete. If in fact he was listed on official documents as a director of a company, that's what the reporter would have found on a records search. If it was a sham company, or that wasn't his primary occupation, the reporter wouldn't know immediately, and any additional information would have to be provided by his family, who might or might not be willing to talk to a reporter while they were grieving. But reporters face deadlines; they go with what they've got every day.

I note that a lot of criticism of the mainstream media seems to be along those lines: they didn't tell the whole story, they didn't put it in the broader context, they didn't give enough space to the other side, etc., etc. Sometimes those criticisms are perfectly valid. But that's not the same as claiming that provable facts reported accurately are somehow "wrong."
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