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Old 31st October 2019, 02:53 PM   #161
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Here is a story of a man who had an outstanding outcome at the hands of the UK after an initial escape from suffocation in a refrigerated truck. His plight appeared genuine, not sure if the same can be said of these unfortunate Vietnamese in the current case. No doubt more individual stories will emerge.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/new...ectid=12280026
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Old 1st November 2019, 04:34 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I note that a lot of criticism of the mainstream media seems to be along those lines: they didn't tell the whole story, they didn't put it in the broader context, they didn't give enough space to the other side, etc., etc. Sometimes those criticisms are perfectly valid. But that's not the same as claiming that provable facts reported accurately are somehow "wrong."
No, the criticism of the newspapers (not the media in general) is that they rushed to a heap of conclusions that may prejudice any future trials, as well as padding out stories with irrelevancies.
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Old 1st November 2019, 08:20 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
If the camera is active IR it wouldn't be that expensive but it would still require an illuminator. A passive IR, i.e. thermographic, camera would be quite expensive though.
As I think about it, all the truck would really need is a motion detector. Cargo doesn't move, but people do.
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Old 1st November 2019, 12:18 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
As I think about it, all the truck would really need is a motion detector. Cargo doesn't move, but people do.
It'll just mean that human traffickers will pack the migrants in ice for the duration of the customs checks to prevent them from moving and then there'll be even more deaths.
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Old 1st November 2019, 03:12 PM   #165
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All 39 people found dead in a refrigerated lorry in Essex were Vietnamese nationals, police have said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-50268939
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Old 2nd November 2019, 01:43 AM   #166
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Brilliant detective work by the UK police. 'They are all believed to be Chinese'.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 02:17 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Brilliant detective work by the UK police. 'They are all believed to be Chinese'.
Was it the press or the police who first released that claim?
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Old 2nd November 2019, 03:18 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Was it the press or the police who first released that claim?
I think it was the police, but it was a working assumption subject to change and wasn't given as a fact. (Based on how I heard it reported)
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Old 2nd November 2019, 03:20 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Was it the press or the police who first released that claim?
I wondered that myself this morning so went and looked it up.

It was the Essex Police who stated that on 24th October:

https://www.essex.police.uk/news/ess...rry-container/

Quote:
We have since confirmed that eight of the deceased are women and 31 are men and all are believed to be Chinese nationals.
I did see some press speculation that they were using fake Chinese passports which may be were the confusion arose.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 06:50 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Brilliant detective work by the UK police. 'They are all believed to be Chinese'.
Do you think you would have made a different statement based on the information they had available at the time?
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Old 2nd November 2019, 07:03 AM   #171
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Learning point, in the future, refer to the deceased as Asian, or from the Far east.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 07:14 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Do you think you would have made a different statement based on the information they had available at the time?
Yes because I know you can't necessarily tell someone is Chinese given the diverse range of countries that have that phenotype.


In a way I am surprised they are Vietnamese as I always thought they were more inclined to be French-speaking and thus less likely to be desperate to come to England once reaching France or Belgium.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 07:15 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Learning point, in the future, refer to the deceased as Asian, or from the Far east.
South-East Asian is the correct term.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 07:24 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
South-East Asian is the correct term.
Even for Chinese?
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Old 2nd November 2019, 07:24 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes because I know you can't necessarily tell someone is Chinese given the diverse range of countries that have that phenotype.


In a way I am surprised they are Vietnamese as I always thought they were more inclined to be French-speaking and thus less likely to be desperate to come to England once reaching France or Belgium.
According to Wikipedia, about 1% of the population of Vietnam are ethnic Chinese. These people may be from that group, and that may have contributed to their desire to leave.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 07:46 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Do you think you would have made a different statement based on the information they had available at the time?
What would they have said if they had been Europeans?

"Caucasians"? (probably not, too American)
"Central European descent"?

or

"Germans"? I think anyone would have questioned that (Germans have no reason to be smuggled in as large groups), so the police would have almost certainly stated "we found German IDs, maybe falsified". So yes, definitely a bit of racial bias/ignorance there.

If you have evidence like IDs, say that it's based on the type of evidence. If it's just because of the way those people look, say "of (South) East Asian descent".
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Old 3rd November 2019, 06:13 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Learning point, in the future, refer to the deceased as Asian, or from the Far east.
Are you assuming they made the statement based purely on the appearance of the victims? There have been reports, which the police have so far (that I have seen) neither confirmed nor denied, that some of the victims had forged Chinese IDs on them.
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Old 3rd November 2019, 06:20 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Are you assuming they made the statement based purely on the appearance of the victims? There have been reports, which the police have so far (that I have seen) neither confirmed nor denied, that some of the victims had forged Chinese IDs on them.
I am impressed that our fine Essex police can recognise Cantonese or Mandarin when they see it.
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Old 3rd November 2019, 07:50 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am impressed that our fine Essex police can recognise Cantonese or Mandarin when they see it.
I wasn’t aware there was any difference in them when written.
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Old 3rd November 2019, 08:02 AM   #180
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Don't these passports incorporate English translations anyway? I mean, doesn't it say something like "People's Republic of China" in clear on the front?
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Old 3rd November 2019, 09:41 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am impressed that our fine Essex police can recognise Cantonese or Mandarin when they see it.
There's an app.
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Old 3rd November 2019, 09:42 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Don't these passports incorporate English translations anyway? I mean, doesn't it say something like "People's Republic of China" in clear on the front?
They do indeed, and on the personal details page.
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Old 3rd November 2019, 10:17 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
They do indeed, and on the personal details page.
LOL So now our fine Essex police can recognise Cantonese or Mandarin but can't deduce that identity papers in the bags of the victims are likely to be fake. (Hello?)
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Old 3rd November 2019, 11:07 AM   #184
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If the only papers are Chinese then until they have more information who should they assume they are dealing with?
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Old 3rd November 2019, 12:10 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
LOL So now our fine Essex police can recognise Cantonese or Mandarin but can't deduce that identity papers in the bags of the victims are likely to be fake. (Hello?)
What are you going on about now? Chinese characters are Chinese characters (thought they might be Traditional or Simplified). Of course the police may have suspected the papers might be fake, what’s that got to do with the price of fish?
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Old 3rd November 2019, 12:43 PM   #186
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It can be difficult to establish Chinese identity because the Chinese authorities think nothing of destroying records of one of the own nationals and denying that person is Chinese.

Under Operation NEXUS, if the police have arrested a foreign national, that person's home country will be contacted to try and find out what, if any previous convictions that person has back home. China is one of a few countries that is not to be contacted, because such contact is likely to result in that person's nationality being denied and potentially their family persecuted.
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Old 4th November 2019, 01:15 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What are you going on about now? Chinese characters are Chinese characters (thought they might be Traditional or Simplified). Of course the police may have suspected the papers might be fake, what’s that got to do with the price of fish?
Citation please of where it is confirmed police identified the victims as possibly Chinese because they found ID documentation amongst the victims suggesting the possibility they were.

My Occam's Razor skeptometer tells me the police thought they were Chinese because 'they looked it'.

No ****, Sherlock.

But wait...
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Old 4th November 2019, 02:06 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Don't these passports incorporate English translations anyway? I mean, doesn't it say something like "People's Republic of China" in clear on the front?
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
They do indeed, and on the personal details page.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
LOL So now our fine Essex police can recognise Cantonese or Mandarin but can't deduce that identity papers in the bags of the victims are likely to be fake. (Hello?)
You've just been told that Chinese passports have English writing on them, so who was saying the police can recognise Chinese characters? You're not making sense.
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Old 4th November 2019, 02:10 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Citation please of where it is confirmed police identified the victims as possibly Chinese because they found ID documentation amongst the victims suggesting the possibility they were.

My Occam's Razor skeptometer tells me the police thought they were Chinese because 'they looked it'.

No ****, Sherlock.

But wait...
Yes, that's what I thought you were saying. Please give your evidence for this.
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Old 4th November 2019, 02:27 AM   #190
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What's wrong if the police initially thought they were Chinese based on appearance?

These were dead bodies, goodness knows in what state and I'd say most of us would probably consider them "chinese looking" as that's the features we tend to associate with Chinese ethnicity. (Unless you are a frequent customer of nail bars in the UK you probably won't have met many Vietnamese people.)
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Old 4th November 2019, 02:39 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Citation please of where it is confirmed police identified the victims as possibly Chinese because they found ID documentation amongst the victims suggesting the possibility they were.

My Occam's Razor skeptometer tells me the police thought they were Chinese because 'they looked it'.

No ****, Sherlock.

But wait...
I'm struggling to get what point you are trying to make here?
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Old 4th November 2019, 02:41 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You've just been told that Chinese passports have English writing on them, so who was saying the police can recognise Chinese characters? You're not making sense.
Yes, this is getting a little odd.
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Old 4th November 2019, 02:45 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What's wrong if the police initially thought they were Chinese based on appearance?

These were dead bodies, goodness knows in what state and I'd say most of us would probably consider them "chinese looking" as that's the features we tend to associate with Chinese ethnicity. (Unless you are a frequent customer of nail bars in the UK you probably won't have met many Vietnamese people.)
I have worked with a Vietnamese guy and had a Vietnamese female friend.

It seems to me the police felt pressured to identify 'race', with the tabloid press demanding to know the ethnicity of the victims.
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Old 4th November 2019, 02:50 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You've just been told that Chinese passports have English writing on them, so who was saying the police can recognise Chinese characters? You're not making sense.
So, produce the citation that confirms police found Chinese passports with English translations.

I suspect the information comes from a tabloid hack making an inspired guess.

But then you wouldn't be one of those SUN readers would you?
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Old 4th November 2019, 06:44 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So, produce the citation that confirms police found Chinese passports with English translations.
If they found Chinese passports (forged or not since one would presume a forger would at least try to copy the real one), they would say "People's Republic of China" and "PASSPORT" in English on the front. No translations necessary. I found this information through the simplest Google search.
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Old 4th November 2019, 10:35 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The police did not say they are Chinese, they said they thought they might be Chinese. I do not think they assumed they were Chinese, they believed it was a possibility.
It was reported at one point that they were Chinese, though the reasons for thinking so were not given. Whether that's what the police actually said, I don't know.
Originally Posted by The Grauniad
The 39 people found dead in a lorry trailer in Essex were Chinese nationals, police have confirmed, as they secured extra time to hold a Northern Irish man on suspicion of murder.
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Old 4th November 2019, 10:43 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
It was reported at one point that they were Chinese, though the reasons for thinking so were not given. Whether that's what the police actually said, I don't know.
I did not know they had claimed confirmation. We need to know of that was based on looks alone, or if they had also found documents which they could not read and assumed they were Chinese.
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Old 4th November 2019, 10:51 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I did not know they had claimed confirmation. We need to know of that was based on looks alone, or if they had also found documents which they could not read and assumed they were Chinese.
I didn't see that report at the time, I found it when looking back to see what was originally reported and when. I find it hard to believe that they would have made such a statement (if they were accurately reported) based purely on looks alone, unless the police in Essex really are as simple-minded as Vixen would have us believe.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:21 AM   #199
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The press reporting was so bad that i would still want to see an Essex police release saying that they were Chinese before I would fully commit. I would not put it past the Guardian to have a journalist phone the Chinese Embassy to say that the police have told them they are Chinese, when they had not, to get a quote from the Embassy.
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Old 5th November 2019, 02:42 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Aside from the obvious racism of it, there's no need for the police to conclude anything about their nationality from their appearance at that point. In fact, I doubt they did.
Not sure how you work that out. There are around 450,000 people of Chinese descent living in the UK, of whom around 200,000 were born in China. In contrast only around 30,000 were born in Vietnam. More to the point, the last time a large number of people were found dead in a lorry, they were all Chinese.
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