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Old 5th November 2019, 08:18 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
If they found Chinese passports (forged or not since one would presume a forger would at least try to copy the real one), they would say "People's Republic of China" and "PASSPORT" in English on the front. No translations necessary. I found this information through the simplest Google search.
Perhaps you misunderstood. I said where is the confirmation police found Chines passports, with translation in English. I was quoting another poster not disputing what a Chinese passport looks like.
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Old 5th November 2019, 08:32 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Perhaps you misunderstood. I said where is the confirmation police found Chines passports, with translation in English. I was quoting another poster not disputing what a Chinese passport looks like.
Where is your confirmation that the police announced the victims were Chinese based purely on what they looked like?
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Old 5th November 2019, 08:40 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No but Information Analyst said perhaps it was thought they were Chinese because there was an occasion previously.
Do you really think he was saying that was only thing being taken into consideration?
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Old 5th November 2019, 09:03 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Where is your confirmation that the police announced the victims were Chinese based purely on what they looked like?
That needs answering.

Even if it is correct, it is a racist as mistaking a Scotsman for an Englishman.
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Old 5th November 2019, 09:49 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Perhaps you misunderstood. I said where is the confirmation police found Chines passports, with translation in English. I was quoting another poster not disputing what a Chinese passport looks like.
And you missed the point. Regardless of whether any passports found were real or fake, they would not require english translations at all because THE ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS ARE ALREADY PRINTED ON THEM.

Have an exampleIMG]https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/return-09252019172016.html/uyghur-ablikim-abla-passport-crop.jpg/@@images/45739f6b-0946-47b2-bb89-0d3e087330b4.jpeg

Edited by Agatha:  Removed image tags of hotlinked image


That's an actual chinese passport.

Hell, you could have looked at your own.

Note to mods: That is a publicly released image, not any breach of privacy. I was careful about that. See https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyg...019172016.html
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Old 5th November 2019, 10:12 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And you missed the point. Regardless of whether any passports found were real or fake, they would not require english translations at all because THE ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS ARE ALREADY PRINTED ON THEM.

Have an example
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyg...e087330b4.jpeg

That's an actual chinese passport.

Hell, you could have looked at your own.

Note to mods: That is a publicly released image, not any breach of privacy. I was careful about that. See https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyg...019172016.html

Yes, that's what I thought. I'm pretty sure I have seen the outside of such a passport, in the immigration queue at some airport or other, and the reason I knew it was a Chinese passport is that the words "People's Republic of China" were printed on the outside cover, in clear, in English, in addition to a bunch of Chinese characters that I of course couldn't read.

If some of the victims in this case had such passports in their possession I really don't see how the police can be criticised for initially believing the victims were indeed Chinese.
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Old 5th November 2019, 10:23 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And you missed the point. Regardless of whether any passports found were real or fake, they would not require english translations at all because THE ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS ARE ALREADY PRINTED ON THEM.

Have an example
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyg...e087330b4.jpeg

That's an actual chinese passport.

Hell, you could have looked at your own.

Note to mods: That is a publicly released image, not any breach of privacy. I was careful about that. See https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyg...019172016.html
Yes, I have already seen that in the tabloid press.

WHERE IS THE CONFIRMATION these Chinese passports, together with English translation WERE FOUND IN THE LORRY?
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Old 5th November 2019, 10:25 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yes, that's what I thought. I'm pretty sure I have seen the outside of such a passport, in the immigration queue at some airport or other, and the reason I knew it was a Chinese passport is that the words "People's Republic of China" were printed on the outside cover, in clear, in English, in addition to a bunch of Chinese characters that I of course couldn't read.

If some of the victims in this case had such passports in their possession I really don't see how the police can be criticised for initially believing the victims were indeed Chinese.
So you keep saying. Citation please that these were found in the lorry, fake or otherwise?
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Old 5th November 2019, 10:31 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So you keep saying. Citation please that these were found in the lorry, fake or otherwise?

You have a problem reading the word "if"?
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Old 5th November 2019, 10:36 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You have a problem reading the word "if"?
So it is pure speculation. You take fake news so seriously that you were able to confidently extrapolate that the Essex police must have guessed the migrants were Chinese because there - oh let me think of something - might have been some documents indicating this was so and they had the help of an English header on the - I know! Those documents must have been passports! - saying so.
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Old 5th November 2019, 10:41 AM   #211
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I think that what the police will have found at the locus and their initial responsibilities is worth discussing.

The first officers attending have a duty to preserve life and balance that with not contaminating a crime scene.

Someone, police or maybe paramedic or both would need to go inside and check the people to see if there are any signs of life. If, as it appears it was quickly established that those inside were dead, then they need to leave and disturb what is there as little as possible.

The next person inside the container should be police scenes of crime (SOCO), fully suited and prepared for a crime scene examination of each body and the container itself after a plan of action has been agreed with a crime scene manager.

Unless there were passports or other documentation openly on display, such would only be taken and checked by the SOCO.

The container was parked publicly and lots of press were about. It was moved and I suspect it was only after it was moved that a full search took place by SOCO, such that any documentation could be traced and checked.
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Old 5th November 2019, 10:41 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So it is pure speculation. You take fake news so seriously that you were able to confidently extrapolate that the Essex police must have guessed the migrants were Chinese because there - oh let me think of something - might have been some documents indicating this was so and they had the help of an English header on the - I know! Those documents must have been passports! - saying so.

No. It has been suggested that the reason the police initially thought the victims were Chinese was that some of them were in possession of (forged?) Chinese passports. I remarked that if that were the case, (given that I know Chinese passports also have the information printed in English, so nobody needed to be able to understand Far Eastern calligraphy) it was an understandable conclusion. I'm not sure why you seem to have a problem with this.
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Old 5th November 2019, 10:44 AM   #213
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It's beginning to look like the Chinese had nothing to do with it:

Quote:
Police in Vietnam have arrested eight people in relation to the case of 39 people found dead in a refrigerated lorry trailer in Essex about a fortnight ago, according to state media.

Local authorities have not revealed the identities of those arrested in the central province of Nghe An, but they are suspected of being part of a ring responsible for smuggling Vietnamese people to Britain.

The arrests follow the Vietnamese government’s strong condemnation of human trafficking. It described the deaths – of people now all believed to be Vietnamese – as a “serious humanitarian tragedy”.

“Based on what we learn from the suspects, we will actively launch investigations to fight and eradicate these rings which bring people illegally to Britain,” said Nguyen Huu Cau, the Nghe An province police chief.

“The best thing to do now is to deal with the consequences of the incident and help family members receive the bodies.”

He reportedly added that police were treating the case as a smuggling incident, rather than a case of human trafficking.

The Vietnamese prime minister, Nguyen Xuan Phuc, ordered an investigation into human trafficking on 26 October, and since then local police have arrested a total of 10 suspects believed to be linked to the lorry deaths.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...t-eight-people

Not even a fake Chinese passport.
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Old 5th November 2019, 10:45 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
No. It has been suggested that the reason the police initially thought the victims were Chinese was that some of them were in possession of (forged?) Chinese passports. I remarked that if that were the case, (given that I know Chinese passports also have the information printed in English, so nobody needed to be able to understand Far Eastern calligraphy) it was an understandable conclusion. I'm not sure why you seem to have a problem with this.
Suggested by whom? You were the one to pop up and point out Chinese passports had English headers.

So you were quite wrong.
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Old 5th November 2019, 10:55 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Suggested by whom? You were the one to pop up and point out Chinese passports had English headers.

So you were quite wrong.
You were the first person in this thread to reference passports;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12868204

in a post where you happily assumed they were Chinese, based on the information at that time.
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Old 5th November 2019, 11:23 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You were the first person in this thread to reference passports;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12868204

in a post where you happily assumed they were Chinese, based on the information at that time.
So now we are trying to get to the bottom of where this information came from (IIRC the Essex Police) and why they said it.
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Old 5th November 2019, 11:54 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's beginning to look like the Chinese had nothing to do with it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...t-eight-people

Not even a fake Chinese passport.
Perhaps keep up with the news, we've known the nationality of the dead for quite a few days...
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Old 5th November 2019, 12:05 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So now we are trying to get to the bottom of where this information came from (IIRC the Essex Police) and why they said it.
You were not doing that, you were criticising another for speculating, as you have merrily speculated yourself.
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Old 5th November 2019, 01:23 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No but Information Analyst said perhaps it was thought they were Chinese because there was an occasion previously.
Liar.
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Old 5th November 2019, 01:24 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Do you really think he was saying that was only thing being taken into consideration?
Not least because it wasn't even the only thing in the post.
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Old 6th November 2019, 01:12 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove content sent to AAH as part of a derail
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove response to same
People do find it difficult to differentiate between individuals they do not know from what - to them - are minority groups in their own societies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808554/

Last edited by Agatha; 6th November 2019 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 6th November 2019, 01:29 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Saying it might not be acceptable, but countless scientific studies have found that it is essentially true. People do find it difficult to differentiate between individuals they do not know from what - to them - are minority groups in their own societies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808554/
Then with that knowledge Essex police shouldn't have said the lorry victims were 'all Chinese nationals' - assuming they had no grounds to (and of course they might have had, which we'll find out about in due course) - especially bearing in mind the sensitive political relationship with China.
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Old 6th November 2019, 02:03 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Then with that knowledge Essex police shouldn't have said the lorry victims were 'all Chinese nationals' - assuming they had no grounds to (and of course they might have had, which we'll find out about in due course) - especially bearing in mind the sensitive political relationship with China.
To repeat, we do not know what information the police based the statement on, nor do we know exactly what they said, only what was reported in the press.
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Old 6th November 2019, 02:08 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
To repeat, we do not know what information the police based the statement on, nor do we know exactly what they said, only what was reported in the press.
We do know what the Police said, I posted a link to their statement earlier in this thread.

From their Update: Thursday 24 October 2019 11:37:

Quote:
... and all are believed to be Chinese nationals.
As you say, we don't know what this was based on.
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Old 6th November 2019, 08:36 AM   #225
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Mod Warning I have sent the derail about racism and assumptions of nationality based on appearance to AAH. Whilst fascinating, it doesn't really fit in this thread, and I will look at the AAH material to see if I can make a substantivve thread from it. Please stay on topic here.
Posted By:Agatha
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Old 7th November 2019, 01:14 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
WHERE IS THE CONFIRMATION these Chinese passports, together with English translation WERE FOUND IN THE LORRY?
The highlighted bit is completely extraneous, as all Chinese passports have English on them as well as Chinese.

So we're simply talking about "Chinese passports", not "Chinese passports together with English translation". The latter makes it sound like that would be unusual in some way.
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Old 7th November 2019, 01:40 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
The highlighted bit is completely extraneous, as all Chinese passports have English on them as well as Chinese.

So we're simply talking about "Chinese passports", not "Chinese passports together with English translation". The latter makes it sound like that would be unusual in some way.
Not this again. As I said before, that is simply a quote of another poster. Read it as: 'passport with English' as claimed by X. I am perfectly well aware the tabloids such as the SUN have issued pictures of typical Chinese passports with English headers, so no, you haven't told me anything new and no, I am not disputing it has English headers.


Sheeesh!!!


The claim that police knew the migrants were Chinese because they had fake 'Chinese passports with English translation' remains as speculative and as specious as ever.


Give me a citation of where police confirmed they found ID documentation in Chinese with English headers. (This is a quote, not a challenge to prove 'Chinese passports have English in them' as quoted by a poster.)

Please don't bother with a photo of a Chinese passport.
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Old 7th November 2019, 03:07 AM   #228
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We should look for what the police said. On the day, this was reported by a local Essex news site;

https://www.essexlive.news/news/esse...y-dead-3456308

"Chief Superintendent Andrew Mariner said: "This is a tragic incident where a large number of people have lost their lives. Our enquiries are ongoing to establish what has happened.
"We are in the process of identifying the victims, however I anticipate that this could be a lengthy process."

No mention of nationality.
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Old 7th November 2019, 03:10 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not this again. As I said before, that is simply a quote of another poster. Read it as: 'passport with English' as claimed by X. I am perfectly well aware the tabloids such as the SUN have issued pictures of typical Chinese passports with English headers, so no, you haven't told me anything new and no, I am not disputing it has English headers.


Sheeesh!!!


The claim that police knew the migrants were Chinese because they had fake 'Chinese passports with English translation' remains as speculative and as specious as ever.


Give me a citation of where police confirmed they found ID documentation in Chinese with English headers. (This is a quote, not a challenge to prove 'Chinese passports have English in them' as quoted by a poster.)
Not sure why anyone would need to, since no-one has claimed that is what did happen, only that it might have done. You're the one apparently claiming that the police decided the victims were Chinese simply based on their appearance.



Meanwhile:
Quote:
Father Anton Dang Huu Nam, a local priest who has been assisting the victims’ families, led a memorial service on Saturday night at his church. He said 35 out of the 39 who died were from Nghe An province: 25 were from his district of Yen Thanh, while two were from nearby Dieu Chau district and another two from the city of Vinh; another six victims were from Ha Tinh district.

“Among the people who died in the truck … my sources indicate that most of them went through China, where they got fake passports,” said Nam. “Families often pay around 1bn vietnamese dong to get to the UK.”
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Old 7th November 2019, 03:31 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Not sure why anyone would need to, since no-one has claimed that is what did happen, only that it might have done. You're the one apparently claiming that the police decided the victims were Chinese simply based on their appearance.



Meanwhile:
Assuming his 'sources' are not Essex Police or the SUN newspaper he seems credible enough. However, maybe we should be cautious as Vietnam and China hate each other.
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Old 7th November 2019, 05:23 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Assuming his 'sources' are not Essex Police or the SUN newspaper he seems credible enough. However, maybe we should be cautious as Vietnam and China hate each other.
Non sequiturs R us...
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:30 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Non sequiturs R us...
It's not a non sequitur. It might be difficult for Vietnamese citizens to visit China in the first place, without proper ID, if the theory is they went via China and acquired fake Chinese ID's.

Anyway the most up to date news is that they are all from Vietnam and a handful of Vietnamese suspected people smugglers have been arrested.

Why would they even need to go via China?
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:47 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's not a non sequitur. It might be difficult for Vietnamese citizens to visit China in the first place, without proper ID,
Maybe they were, I dunno, smuggled in?
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:59 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Maybe they were, I dunno, smuggled in?
Problem is, with the Chinese ID theory, is that very few Chinese arrivals to this country via proper routes are given more than tourist or student visas.

Why would you want a useless passport that doesn't even allow you to settle here?

Makes more sense to get hold of a fake EU passport.
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Old 7th November 2019, 11:29 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Maybe they were, I dunno, smuggled in?
Schrödinger's trafficked people, obviously.
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Old 7th November 2019, 11:35 AM   #236
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It's now been officially confirmed all the victim were Vietnamese nationals.
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Old 11th November 2019, 07:37 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How poor is the quality of the press these days. It reported:

- the driver was one of the UK's 'worse mass murderers'

- the victims must have been Bulgarians as the vehicle was registered in Bulgaria

- the victims must be Chinese because they look it

- the above assumption has led to long articles about 'snakehead' gangsters from China and past notorious Chinese people smugglers

- on hearing the victims may actually be Vietnamese, the tabloids quickly discovered a bunch of Vietnamese refuges at Calais looking for passage to England.
Got a reference for the highlighted statement, btw?
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Old 11th November 2019, 08:59 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Got a reference for the highlighted statement, btw?
London (CNN)All 39 people who were found dead in a truck in a UK industrial park on Wednesday were Chinese nationals, British police said Thursday, as officers in England, Northern Ireland and Belgium scrambled to establish the chain of events that led to the tragic incident.https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/24/u...gbr/index.html
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Old 11th November 2019, 09:18 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
London (CNN)All 39 people who were found dead in a truck in a UK industrial park on Wednesday were Chinese nationals, British police said Thursday, as officers in England, Northern Ireland and Belgium scrambled to establish the chain of events that led to the tragic incident.https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/24/u...gbr/index.html
What a weird article. They quote a bunch of officials, but not the official who actually told them the trailer was full of Chinese nationals.

They link to a police statement, that says they're "believed to be". That has since been updated. It looks like that was an early estimate, not a formal finding of nationality. The update is a much more formal declaration of the nationality of the victims.

I think somebody got carried away with an early report from the investigation, and turned into a positive ID where none was actually made or intended.
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Old 11th November 2019, 09:31 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What a weird article. They quote a bunch of officials, but not the official who actually told them the trailer was full of Chinese nationals.

They link to a police statement, that says they're "believed to be". That has since been updated. It looks like that was an early estimate, not a formal finding of nationality. The update is a much more formal declaration of the nationality of the victims.

I think somebody got carried away with an early report from the investigation, and turned into a positive ID where none was actually made or intended.
It was taken very seriously because the Chinese ambassadors in the UK where called to help establish identity. It wasn't just idle speculation. Someone official somewhere decided they were Chinese. Time will tell if this was because of fake documents leading them to believe this.
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