ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 29th October 2019, 09:14 AM   #1
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,613
ID's needed to watch porn? Australians may need to facial scans!

Quote:
The Australian government has proposed using a facial recognition system it is developing to verify that people who seek to watch pornography online are of legal age.

Current law in Australia does not prohibit minors from viewing pornography. But the federal government is considering proposals that would require people to prove their age before watching the material.

Under the proposal from the Department of Home Affairs, a computer user’s face would be matched to images from official identity documents. It does not say how the user would submit a facial image at the beginning of each online session.

The proposal drew immediate objections as a potential infringement of Australians’ privacy. “I think people should be very concerned about any government department that’s seeking to store this kind of information,” said Senator Rex Patrick, a centrist lawmaker from the state of South Australia.

The Department of Home Affairs did not respond to questions about the proposal, and the attorney general’s office, when asked to comment on the legal ramifications of the system, directed all questions to Home Affairs.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/w...cognition.html

After Britain abandoned its pathetic attempt to require people to authenticate their identity in order to access pornographic websites, the Australian's are now taking the moral panic of minors watching porn to an entire level of ridiculousness altogether.

Presumably in order to prevent horny teenagers from swiping their parents ID's in order to circumvent any required identification checks, they would be required to take images of their face to ascertain that they really are the person they claim they are. In seeking to become world leading in "protecting children" from the latest imagined threats to their children there seems to be no limits to Anglo stupidity.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 09:19 AM   #2
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 51,886
Ten points for using the word "facial" in the thread title.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 09:22 AM   #3
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,822
Will the poor little toddlers need a facial scan to watch heads explode, mass murder, rape and general violence and sex on Netflix?
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 09:23 AM   #4
wasapi
Philosopher
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,373
Seriously?!!! I can thing of many reasons why it isn't a good idea. There would be so many ways for kids to get around it, and why? Are they really harming themselves?
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 09:31 AM   #5
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 51,886
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Will the poor little toddlers need a facial scan to watch heads explode, mass murder, rape and general violence and sex on Netflix?
It's much worse than that, Netflix has the complete run of Kath & Kim.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 09:59 AM   #6
ServiceSoon
Graduate Poster
 
ServiceSoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,498
The Australian Gov wants to create a facial scan database for adults to...protect teenage children/young adults.

What are the suspected outcomes when teenagers can no longer view porn? Or said another way, have there been any studies done to determine the harm that results from teenagers watching porn? I'm not convinced that the amount of trauma supports such a drastic measure from the gov.
ServiceSoon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 10:11 AM   #7
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,587
Parents asking governments to do their parenting for them. Does my head in.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 10:20 AM   #8
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
 
Earthborn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 6,051
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Presumably in order to prevent horny teenagers from swiping their parents ID's in order to circumvent any required identification checks,
Reminds me of this story.
__________________
Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that!
Multatuli
Earthborn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 10:25 AM   #9
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,706
My Samsung tablet is set to unlock itself when it recognizes my face. This often fails in the mornings when I have just woken up.
The proposal means that I would be forced to watched PG13 entertainment on Sunday mornings
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 11:37 AM   #10
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 24,435
Pre-internet, you usually needed to show an ID to prove you were an adult when buying an adult magazine at a shop.

I need to be convinced these newer age-verification rules are somehow different.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 12:38 PM   #11
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,633
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Pre-internet, you usually needed to show an ID to prove you were an adult when buying an adult magazine at a shop.

I need to be convinced these newer age-verification rules are somehow different.
Tracking. That's how. The old ID check system was never capable of tracking you, and if it was anything like ID requirements for alcohol, only used if it wasn't obvious you were old enough. Any internet ID method is almost guaranteed to include tracking.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 02:45 PM   #12
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,897
So presumably this is for children who live on their own without parents or guardians.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 03:38 PM   #13
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 3,255
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Will the poor little toddlers need a facial scan to watch heads explode, mass murder, rape and general violence and sex on Netflix?
This.

As a general rule I think: if you're old enough to seriously search for porn, it probably won't be as bad as you think (I mean I turned out okay....kinda). Especially given what you mentioned about movie violence and such, which a kid could easily accidentally see as someone in the household is watching. They are much less likely to be exposed to graphic sex unless they are searching it with intent.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 03:47 PM   #14
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,613
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Pre-internet, you usually needed to show an ID to prove you were an adult when buying an adult magazine at a shop.

I need to be convinced these newer age-verification rules are somehow different.
Yeah it's important for there to be a level playing field between physical shops and websites online. We have to help main street thrive in the digital age and this includes seedy sex boutiques just as it does clothes stores.

Of course in reality it would seem like this is a solution in search of a problem. No serious politician is going to defend minors (or children, use this term for maximum emotional impact) looking at porn, even if there's no good evidence for keeping it away from minors (especially youth who are old enough to legally have sex themselves).

Taking into account the supposed serious long-term negative impact of minors watching porn (both to the individual and to society); the ease that almost anyone, including minors, can access pornographic media (including the most spine tingling debauchery capable of being understood by human minds); it stand to reason that we should've seen the latest generation of youth exhibiting extreme levels of the most immoral and anti-social conduct possible.

That was, after all, why children and especially impressionable youth were to be "protected" from pornography in the first place. To protect their moral upbringing and preventing them from falling into debauchery and sinful living?
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

Last edited by Arcade22; 29th October 2019 at 03:49 PM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 05:19 PM   #15
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,214
I'm not sure where the New York Times is getting the connection to pornography from. It's well-established that Home Affairs is pushing for a facial recognition system, but it's for security and surveillance reasons, and not for policing porn.

A government committee just recently rejected a proposed bill because it was short on detail and contained no safeguards or controls on its application or use. Under that bill it would probably have been possible to leverage the system to apply to porn watching, but that was never its purpose.

I suspect that the NYT (or whoever it was that first put the story on the wires) may have made a tenuous connection based on some ambiguous wording somewhere and run with it. I notice that there are no direct links to the proposal. I'm finding the claim in some Australian outlets, but it's not being reported by the ABC at this time, which I consider to be the most reliable news source in the country.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 05:44 PM   #16
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 19,163
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/w...cognition.html

After Britain abandoned its pathetic attempt to require people to authenticate their identity in order to access pornographic websites, the Australian's are now taking the moral panic of minors watching porn to an entire level of ridiculousness altogether.

Presumably in order to prevent horny teenagers from swiping their parents ID's in order to circumvent any required identification checks, they would be required to take images of their face to ascertain that they really are the person they claim they are. In seeking to become world leading in "protecting children" from the latest imagined threats to their children there seems to be no limits to Anglo stupidity.
You said "facial". Hurr, Hurr, hurr.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 05:52 PM   #17
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 25,813
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm not sure where the New York Times is getting the connection to pornography from.
Probably from the Australian government:

https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore...2&subId=671954
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 06:38 PM   #18
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,214
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Probably from the Australian government:

https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore...2&subId=671954
Okay, thanks. Now we're getting somewhere. I notice that the title of the document is "Submission to the Inquiry into Age Verification for Online Wagering and Online Pornography."

Nobody is talking about gambling, even though every reference to pornography in the document is accompanied by a reference to gambling. And that reference occurs exactly once - in the document's title.

And yes, having now read it in detail, it's talking about using the existing Identity-matching Services Bill 2019 (which is the one that was soundly rejected by the committee) to expand age verification systems across the board. For example, one application that I can think of off the top of my head is for purchasing alcohol.

But someone somewhere decided to make it all about pornography. I wonder who made that decision.

ETA: Let's see the Terms of Reference for the Inquiry into Age Verification for Online Wagering and Online Pornography, if we're going to put this in proper context.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe

Last edited by arthwollipot; 29th October 2019 at 06:41 PM.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 06:47 PM   #19
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,214
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
ETA: Let's see the Terms of Reference for the Inquiry into Age Verification for Online Wagering and Online Pornography, if we're going to put this in proper context.
And here they are.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 06:54 PM   #20
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,214
The Home Affairs submission is one of 137 submissions to this enquiry, of varying length and quality. Most of them are about what you'd expect - from members of the public or church groups.

I notice that there is a submission from the Eros Association, which explicitly (lol) calls out the UK model as one to be avoided.

I'll look through the submissions a bit more after lunch.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 07:10 PM   #21
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,329
Seriously? The first thing I thought of was the smarty-pants kids will get a pic printed of their mum or dad and hold that up to the camera. Or Tom Cruise. Or Donald Trump. Do that when "registering", use it thereafter, firewall bypassed.

For our international correspondents, please be aware that our current Neanderthal government ministers have precisely zero awareness of how "computers" and "the internet" actually works. They are like your aged, grumpy, slightly batty grandpa who barks at the radio and TV because he doesn't like the programmes. They seriously think that the internet can be censored but just for Australians.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 07:59 PM   #22
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,214
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Seriously? The first thing I thought of was the smarty-pants kids will get a pic printed of their mum or dad and hold that up to the camera. Or Tom Cruise. Or Donald Trump. Do that when "registering", use it thereafter, firewall bypassed.
Oh no! If only someone had thought of that!

The system is a little bit more sophisticated than that. The Home Affairs submission specifically states that the system can't be bypassed by using pictures of other people because it incorporates document verification as well.

Quote:
These services includes the Document Verification Service, which makes it harder for people to use fake
identity documents, which could otherwise be used to circumvent age verification processes. The Document
Verification Service checks whether the personal information on an identity document matches the original
record. Importantly this includes verification of the date of birth on Australian passports, driver licences and
birth certificates. The Document Verification Service conducted about 48 million transactions in 2018-19 and
has been available to government agencies for over 10 years, and to the private sector since 2014.

In addition, Home Affairs is developing a Face Verification Service which matches a person’s photo against
images used on one of their evidence of identity documents to help verify their identity. The Face Verification
Service complements the Document Verification Service by preventing the use of stolen as well as fake
identity information. This could assist in age verification, for example by preventing a minor from using their
parent’s driver licence to circumvent age verification controls.
(sorry about the funky formatting, I was copying from a PDF.)

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
For our international correspondents, please be aware that our current Neanderthal government ministers have precisely zero awareness of how "computers" and "the internet" actually works. They are like your aged, grumpy, slightly batty grandpa who barks at the radio and TV because he doesn't like the programmes. They seriously think that the internet can be censored but just for Australians.
True this.

Continuing with my perusal of the submissions, there's this one from AVSecure, which appears to be the system that was contracted to the UK government for this purpose. But all of the others appear to be either anonymous, from private citizens, or from church groups. Not a single privacy or security organisation among them.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:31 PM   #23
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,329
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh no! If only someone had thought of that!
Indeed! Not like it's a difficult move either.

Quote:
The system is a little bit more sophisticated than that. The Home Affairs submission specifically states that the system can't be bypassed by using pictures of other people because it incorporates document verification as well.

(sorry about the funky formatting, I was copying from a PDF.)
Honestly borking this system, even as "secure" as proposed, is less sophisticated than using a fake card-ID to get into discos in the 1970's. And it doesn't even begin to address the use of VPN's, private and public. They tried this decades ago and failed miserably then.

So it will be worse than useless unless they come down on the Australian population worse than the Chinese government does on theirs. The underground methods used to bypass these silly controls will make them the laughingstock of the internet. But that's the wannabe-Gestapo mindset of Dutton's Home Affairs department.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:38 PM   #24
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,214
Yes I agree that using a VPN will almost certainly circumvent anything that Dutton's department can come up with, but it's not going to be as simple as showing them someone else's picture.

No, my expectation is that they will come to the same conclusion as the UK government and quietly just drop it.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:50 PM   #25
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,329
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes I agree that using a VPN will almost certainly circumvent anything that Dutton's department can come up with, but it's not going to be as simple as showing them someone else's picture.
They do that now to bypass picture verification. Seen them do it.

Also, i have only two photo ID's. My work ID picture can be described accurately as "dead person standing up behind a scratched piece of perspex". It looks nothing like me and it's a crap photo too. And it's nothing like my photo-ID driver's license, aka very much younger and more handsome version of me if I looked like Elvis Presley or possibly Lou Reed. Plus I now have much greyer hair (it's work-stress!) So if I try to use these perfectly valid items as online ID then I expect I will never see my porn again.

Quote:
No, my expectation is that they will come to the same conclusion as the UK government and quietly just drop it.
Totally agree. As soon as a few of their children show them just how easily it can be neutralised, they will do the same thing here.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 09:20 PM   #26
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,214
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
They do that now to bypass picture verification. Seen them do it.
Of course they can with some crappy systems. Home Affairs is not proposing a crappy system. They're proposing a raft of surveillance methods that amongst other things will be used to screen people at airports, look for criminals in shopping centres, monitor traffic incidents and more.

The submission is simply saying "hey, you know that porn and gambling thing you've been working on, well we could incorporate that into what we're already doing."

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Also, i have only two photo ID's. My work ID picture can be described accurately as "dead person standing up behind a scratched piece of perspex". It looks nothing like me and it's a crap photo too. And it's nothing like my photo-ID driver's license, aka very much younger and more handsome version of me if I looked like Elvis Presley or possibly Lou Reed. Plus I now have much greyer hair (it's work-stress!) So if I try to use these perfectly valid items as online ID then I expect I will never see my porn again.
Don't know about you, but my driver's license is renewed every five years, and I can get a new work pass any time I like.

ETA: I also have the advantage of still looking largely like the charming man with the lazer eyes that you can see next to this post.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 03:41 AM   #27
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,613
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
But someone somewhere decided to make it all about pornography. I wonder who made that decision.
Maybe it's because authenticating someones identity when it comes to online gambling isn't nearly as objectionable as interfering in peoples private masturbation habits?

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Of course they can with some crappy systems. Home Affairs is not proposing a crappy system.
Using facial recognition to authenticate someones identity would require that the subject has their face photographed. An algorithm then compares this image with another one and determines whether the images are sufficiently similar. The only realistic way to prevent people from simply using a previously printed image of someone eases face is by making sure that a real persons face is being genuinely photographed.

There would be no need for facial recognition in the now abandoned British system. Including it when one registers for a "porn pass" would be redundant because their identity (or simply that they were above the age of 18) would already be established. Requiring that people submit to a facial recognition scan every-time they visit a pornographic website would be extremely impractical, because it would require that they somehow have their face authentically photographed every time.

In Sweden we have this thing called a BankID, which is basically a way of securely authenticating ones identity by tying ones bank account (and thus ones identity, including your personal ID number and residence address) to a encrypted file on your computer or more commonly your phone. If i wish to access my tax returns, see all my medicinal prescriptions and appointments or even pay for things online with my bank account i can simply use this. It's as simple as writing the password on my phone. In principle this could be used to force people to prove their identity on porn websites, but that's not gonna happen because people have a hard enough time caring about mandatory porn filters in schools.

Most importantly though, with regards to BankID, including facial recognition would clearly be redundant because only i should have access to my own bank account through a security tokenWP. As long as you aren't one of those very suggestible persons, who believe the people that tell them use BankID to log them into their bank account, facial recognition is simply a redundancy. Hell it wouldn't even prevent that kind of scam.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

Last edited by Arcade22; 30th October 2019 at 03:44 AM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 09:01 AM   #28
Donal
Illuminator
 
Donal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,903
MalwareTech has a solution

Quote:
1. Install a virtual webcam driver.
2. Set a video of Australian prime minister as your webcam feed.
3. Enjoy.
Also: What if you are wearing a gimp mask? Asking for a friend.
__________________
SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense

Last edited by Donal; 30th October 2019 at 09:02 AM.
Donal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 09:13 AM   #29
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 24,435
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Tracking. That's how. The old ID check system was never capable of tracking you, and if it was anything like ID requirements for alcohol, only used if it wasn't obvious you were old enough. Any internet ID method is almost guaranteed to include tracking.
So, "like everything else on the internet you use", then.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 10:18 AM   #30
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 19,365
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes I agree that using a VPN will almost certainly circumvent anything that Dutton's department can come up with, but it's not going to be as simple as showing them someone else's picture.

No, my expectation is that they will come to the same conclusion as the UK government and quietly just drop it.
I think you start out with this system. Then, once the kiddies all learn how to set uo a stable VPN you move to a system that will require a VPN and some additional programming skill. And then every six months you slowly make it just a tad tougher.

Eventually you will have a teen population of some of the best programmers in the world. Russia will be so jealous.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 10:31 AM   #31
Tony99
Muse
 
Tony99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Austin
Posts: 819
The promise of boobs has been a core driver of innovation for thousands of years.
Tony99 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 10:39 AM   #32
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Currently Dismembered
Posts: 8,678
Surely the DNA samples on the monitor should suffice for ID?
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 05:41 PM   #33
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,214
Has literally nobody read the Home Affairs submission other than me? Facial recognition is only one part of a two-part solution. The other part already exists, and that is document verification. Your face must be matched to previously-verified documents. To hack this system you would first have to hack the document verification system. Once you've got that you're golden, but it's a little bit more complicated than just holding a picture up to the screen.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 05:58 PM   #34
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,329
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Has literally nobody read the Home Affairs submission other than me? Facial recognition is only one part of a two-part solution. The other part already exists, and that is document verification. Your face must be matched to previously-verified documents. To hack this system you would first have to hack the document verification system. Once you've got that you're golden, but it's a little bit more complicated than just holding a picture up to the screen.
Yep I've read it. Working in health, it will affect us. The general opinion from the techies here is that it is so easy to bypass or fool or otherwise screw up that it is a waste of time. The VPN providers of all types are salivating in anticipation.

Or it will become so damned complicated to operate or restrictive that the pushback will be enormous. Do you really need to do this to open your phone browser?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 06:01 PM   #35
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,214
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Yep I've read it. Working in health, it will affect us. The general opinion from the techies here is that it is so easy to bypass or fool or otherwise screw up that it is a waste of time. The VPN providers of all types are salivating in anticipation.

Or it will become so damned complicated to operate or restrictive that the pushback will be enormous. Do you really need to do this to open your phone browser?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
I don't expect that this will go anywhere. It's pointless, discriminative and technically unfeasible. I'm reacting to the people saying to just hold up a photo. That won't work.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 02:03 AM   #36
Sceptic-PK
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,787
Haha. They'd want to do a better job than they did with their embarrassing attempt at blocking torrent sites.
Sceptic-PK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 09:15 AM   #37
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 16,134
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't expect that this will go anywhere. It's pointless, discriminative and technically unfeasible. I'm reacting to the people saying to just hold up a photo. That won't work.

It certainly doesn't help that current facial-recognition technology is highly flawed, and does not function very well under many circumstances. At this time, they have enormous difficulties differentiating between African or East Asian faces (the former because they're often too dark to provide sufficient contrast, the latter because their typically rounder, softer features are not strong-defined enough for the existing algorithms, which are incapable of reliably detecting more subtle differences). They also have big problems with glasses, facial jewelry, and certain types of makeup. That last is a point that comes up repeatedly with regard to techniques for defeating surveillance cameras popular in the UK.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

Last edited by luchog; 31st October 2019 at 09:16 AM.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 09:19 AM   #38
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,174
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/w...cognition.html

After Britain abandoned its pathetic attempt to require people to authenticate their identity in order to access pornographic websites, the Australian's are now taking the moral panic of minors watching porn to an entire level of ridiculousness altogether.

Presumably in order to prevent horny teenagers from swiping their parents ID's in order to circumvent any required identification checks, they would be required to take images of their face to ascertain that they really are the person they claim they are. In seeking to become world leading in "protecting children" from the latest imagined threats to their children there seems to be no limits to Anglo stupidity.
Sounds like a solution in search of a problem, to me.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 09:23 AM   #39
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,174
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Okay, thanks. Now we're getting somewhere. I notice that the title of the document is "Submission to the Inquiry into Age Verification for Online Wagering and Online Pornography."

Nobody is talking about gambling, even though every reference to pornography in the document is accompanied by a reference to gambling. And that reference occurs exactly once - in the document's title.

And yes, having now read it in detail, it's talking about using the existing Identity-matching Services Bill 2019 (which is the one that was soundly rejected by the committee) to expand age verification systems across the board. For example, one application that I can think of off the top of my head is for purchasing alcohol.

But someone somewhere decided to make it all about pornography. I wonder who made that decision.

ETA: Let's see the Terms of Reference for the Inquiry into Age Verification for Online Wagering and Online Pornography, if we're going to put this in proper context.
You said "submission". Hurr, Hurr, hurr.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 09:42 AM   #40
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,655
I didn't know Australia's internet speed was fast enough to watch porn.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:32 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.