ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 8th November 2019, 08:59 PM   #41
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,743
Humans lean toward capitalism as a way to advance oneself. We would do it if barter was the only way and there was no coin of the realm.

What we can do is not be destructive in our efforts to better our lot.. Clearcutting when selective harvesting will do, using what we need and not getting a years supply of whatever material in a scarring manner or reuse of materials already in our waste piles instead of mining for more.

Add in switching to renewable energy sources as we can and there should be more than enough jobs out there both high and low tech fields. Just do it in a sensible transition from where ee are to where we could be.

The key to getting people to recycle aggressively is put a cash value on the materials. Jobs would transfer from mining ores to reprocessing existing materials. Not all of course but a good portion, enough to make the difference over time.
8enotto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2019, 12:14 AM   #42
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 38,312
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I read these threads and sometimes it is like some people actually wan't businesses to make a loss, or at least not make a profit and have to sack workers causing poverty.


Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick and if so I apologise

But it is like every now and again people forget how a basic economy works.

Small businesses start. Hire people. Those people have a wage
I want harmful businesses to change AND profit so that everyone can prosper.

e.g. McDonald's started selling healthier choices years ago.

Transitions. That word again. Incremental systems changes.

I need to look into more about fossil fuel companies and their changes.

I know Origin Energy here are doing more about renewables.

And I saw Rio had a big thing on their website about working with local native animal & vegetation conservation groups.

I'm looking out for stuff like that.

Fossil Fuel companies and managed funds (and their investors) are dead scared they'll be left with what's known as "stranded assets".

So they need to divest of non-renewable resource depletion gradually but systematically, so as not to create share price volatility above and beyond the normal (so as not to go out of business).

It's rather cool.
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th December 2019, 06:11 PM   #43
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,743
OK, not to deny the ice is melting and seas rise for it, so don't bite me on that. I know that is happening.

We know the plates that make the surface of the planet move. This causes mountains to rise and earthquakes when the fail lines build pressure.

This also cause coastal cities and historically entire areas to go below sea level. Alexandria in the north of Egypt for example.

Has this been taken into account for coastal area flooding anywhere? Or do we just automatically go for the hot topic of the moment ignoring the earth is in movement?
8enotto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th December 2019, 07:36 PM   #44
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,816
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
OK, not to deny the ice is melting and seas rise for it, so don't bite me on that. I know that is happening.

We know the plates that make the surface of the planet move. This causes mountains to rise and earthquakes when the fail lines build pressure.

This also cause coastal cities and historically entire areas to go below sea level. Alexandria in the north of Egypt for example.

Has this been taken into account for coastal area flooding anywhere? Or do we just automatically go for the hot topic of the moment ignoring the earth is in movement?
The scientists take subsidence into account, that's partly why tide gauges are no longer the standard used to measure changes in sea level on a global scale.

Of course reporting in the popular press tends to be all over the place. But I do recall quite a bit of coverage over the flooding in New Orleans being caused in part by the city itself sinking.



Tide-gauge records might underestimate sea level rise


Rising above Tide Gauges
Quote:
Tide gauge data have been venerable but imperfect indicators of variations in global mean sea level. The gauges are few and far between, and are always at the edge of the land. Moreover, rather than measuring absolute sea level change, tide gauges measure the height of the sea surface relative to crustal reference points that may move with tectonic activity or local subsidence.

Here's a related article regarding Venice:

Venice Menace: Famed City is Sinking & Tilting
Quote:
Venice subsided about 120 mm in the 20th century due to natural processes and groundwater extraction, in addition to a sea level rise of about 110 mm at the same time, Teatini said in a statement. Bock and his colleagues calculate that the city and surrounding land could sink by about 80 mm (3.2 inches) relative to the sea in the next 20 years if the current rate holds steady.
Mind you, the articles I've linked are from Sciencey type news sources, reporting pretty closely what the scientists themselves are saying - the same scientists that are telling us the climate change is real, almost exclusively human caused, and faster than previous natural cycles of climate change.

Then again, popular press reporting does not always do such a good job.

Last edited by crescent; 14th December 2019 at 07:38 PM.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 11:21 AM   #45
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,048
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The scientists take subsidence into account, that's partly why tide gauges are no longer the standard used to measure changes in sea level on a global scale.
Tide gauges are still used and do receive adjustments for subsidence. They are being overtaken by satellite data for which no such adjustments are required, but the tide gauge data is still required for looking at historical data.

Typically what happens is this.

If scientists didn’t adjust for subsidence: Climate deniers go “see I told you scientists don’t know what they are doing”


When scientist do adjust for subsidence: Climate deniers go “Scientists are all frauds. Just look at how different their numbers are from the raw data!”
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 11:29 AM   #46
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,048
BTW, there is actually a third issue when looking at local sea level rise.

The ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica are so big, their gravity has a major impact on local sea levels. If the Greenland ice sheet melted, the resulting change in gravity would cause local sea levels in Greenland would drop upwards of 100m. Even though globally sea levels would go up 6m on average within ~1000 km of Greenland sea levels would actually drop, and sea levels farther away would rise even more because this water would need to go someplace.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 11:41 AM   #47
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 12,682
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
OK, not to deny the ice is melting and seas rise for it, so don't bite me on that. I know that is happening.

We know the plates that make the surface of the planet move. This causes mountains to rise and earthquakes when the fail lines build pressure.

This also cause coastal cities and historically entire areas to go below sea level. Alexandria in the north of Egypt for example.

Has this been taken into account for coastal area flooding anywhere? Or do we just automatically go for the hot topic of the moment ignoring the earth is in movement?
Plate tectonics is the dominant climate forcing on timescales of tens to hundreds of millions of years. Over decades, not so much.

There are other reasons why coastlines in particular areas may rise or fall, as have been mentioned. They're essentially noise on top of the underlying trend caused by global warming.

And yes, they've all been taken into account.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 11:53 AM   #48
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,743
Please, don't be tossing around the denier stuff in a thread that actually looks at data and looks for facts.

Anyhow, I am aware many factors come into play. So I asked.

Where does the data/prediction of sea level changes come from if the Greenland ice mass would melt? It seems odd such an turn of events that it would lower at the area of Greenland.

Another thing, I can recall news of planes of the 2nd world war being released from ice masses in the 80's. So some time between the end of the war and then they were covered. Later released in a 70 year span more or less.

This tells me a short span heating an cooling cycle is in play if just locally to certain areas.
8enotto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 12:32 PM   #49
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 12,682
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Where does the data/prediction of sea level changes come from if the Greenland ice mass would melt?
I imagine they just calculate the number of cubic feet of ice (area times average thickness) and work out how much that much water would raise average sea levels. From memory it's about 25 feet.

Keep in mind that warm water expands; I think about half the expected rise in sea level with global warming is due to that rather than melting ice.

Quote:
It seems odd such an turn of events that it would lower at the area of Greenland.
Sorry, I can't parse this. Care to try again?

Quote:
Another thing, I can recall news of planes of the 2nd world war being released from ice masses in the 80's. So some time between the end of the war and then they were covered. Later released in a 70 year span more or less.

This tells me a short span heating an cooling cycle is in play if just locally to certain areas.
In the couple of such stories I've come across the plane crashed into a glacier in the mountains, got buried by snow and incorporated into the glacier, which then transported it down the mountain to eventually emerge at the bottom. So nothing to do with climate change as such.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 12:35 PM   #50
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,048
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Ple

Where does the data/prediction of sea level changes come from if the Greenland ice mass would melt? It seems odd such an turn of events that it would lower at the area of Greenland.
The Eamian (~120KYA – 130KYA) is considered a reasonably good model for what the earth would look like as temperatures increase as the earth still looks fairly similar. At the Eamian maximum, 125KYA, the earth was 2 deg warmer the it is now and sea levels were 20-30 feet (6m-9m) higher because ~1/2 the ice in both the Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets melted.


If the Eamian maximum is exceeded things get really dicey because past that permafrost and Methane Hydrates that have remained frozen for millions of years start to melt potentially adding another 1-2 deg C warming even if humans stopped emitting CO2 altogether. At 3-4 deg warming puts us in a regime where there are palm trees in Alaska, most of central North America is desert, the Amazon is mostly gone and significant, the ice sheets in Greenland and West Antarctica are gone there is significant melting in East Antarctica that could raise sea levels by dozens of meters.

The only “good” thing about the sea level rise numbers is that no one is really sure how quickly they would go up, but paleo-climate data indicates global sea levels can go up 2m – 5m a century when the really big ice sheets are melting.


Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post

Another thing, I can recall news of planes of the 2nd world war being released from ice masses in the 80's.
Not the same thing. These would have been stuck in glaciers slowly making their way towards coastal areas where they would have melted. This process happens regardless of warming or even cooling. For this type of analysis you need ice that isn’t moving and at present plants and artifacts that have been under ice since the Holocene maximum are melting out of the ice.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 12:45 PM   #51
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Usk, Wales
Posts: 26,159
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
BTW, there is actually a third issue when looking at local sea level rise.

The ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica are so big, their gravity has a major impact on local sea levels. If the Greenland ice sheet melted, the resulting change in gravity would cause local sea levels in Greenland would drop upwards of 100m. Even though globally sea levels would go up 6m on average within ~1000 km of Greenland sea levels would actually drop, and sea levels farther away would rise even more because this water would need to go someplace.
What? Their gravity raises local sea levels by 100m? Doesn't sheer mass raise local sea levels close to any major land mass? Do ships have to go (gently) uphill as they approach land? I didn't know that
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 12:45 PM   #52
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,048
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post


Sorry, I can't parse this. Care to try again?
It seems like a reference to my post on the impact of changes in gravity due to melting ice, and the impact this can have in local sea levels.

http://sealevelstudy.org/sea-change-...ive-ice-sheets

The “sweet spot” seems to be Scotland, where sea levels would remain more or less unchanged if Greenland melted.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 12:49 PM   #53
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,743
OK, that seems a quite reasonable explanation for both.

Thanks.

Still not good news for the world as we know it but then it wasn't always like this before either.
8enotto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 12:50 PM   #54
ThatGuy11200
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: London
Posts: 299
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
BTW, there is actually a third issue when looking at local sea level rise.

The ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica are so big, their gravity has a major impact on local sea levels. If the Greenland ice sheet melted, the resulting change in gravity would cause local sea levels in Greenland would drop upwards of 100m. Even though globally sea levels would go up 6m on average within ~1000 km of Greenland sea levels would actually drop, and sea levels farther away would rise even more because this water would need to go someplace.
There are also ocean currents to take into account with sea levels. For example, sea water is flowing away from the east coast of the US, keeping sea levels relatively low, due to the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC), which the Gulf Stream is a part of.

If AMOC weakens, as fresh water from melting ice flows into the sea, then sea levels there will rise.
ThatGuy11200 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 12:52 PM   #55
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,048
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Doesn't sheer mass raise local sea levels close to any major land mass?
AFAIK it would.
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Do ships have to go (gently) uphill as they approach land? I didn't know that
I guess that would depend on how you defined “uphill”. The ship would be pulled that direction as well, so it wouldn’t be moving either up or down relative the gravitational field.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 01:01 PM   #56
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,048
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post

Still not good news for the world as we know it but then it wasn't always like this before either.
Not while there were humans around it wasn't.

The real issue with climate change is the speed with which the earth is warming. The last time there was a 3-6 deg change in global temperatures that happened this rapidly was when the dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago. Other studies have started linking CO2 pulses with the other major extinction events in the earths history.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 01:12 PM   #57
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Not while there were humans around it wasn't.

The real issue with climate change is the speed with which the earth is warming. The last time there was a 3-6 deg change in global temperatures that happened this rapidly was when the dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago. Other studies have started linking CO2 pulses with the other major extinction events in the earths history.
Well, that supports my theory that dinosaurs used trilobite fossil fuels and coal plants which causes DGW (dinosaurigenic global warming).
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th December 2019, 01:48 PM   #58
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,743
The crater of the meteor that messed up the dinosaur world is a days drive away. The soil under my house is ancient seabed and volcanic ash.

I am aware a big change could make Mexico mostly seabed again.
8enotto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2019, 08:59 AM   #59
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,048
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
The crater of the meteor that messed up the dinosaur world is a days drive away. The soil under my house is ancient seabed and volcanic ash.

I am aware a big change could make Mexico mostly seabed again.
The direct damage from the Chicxulub impact itself was localized, relatively speaking. It killed things in ~1000 mile radius. It was almost certainly the resulting climate disruption and ocean acidification that made the extinction global. (Ocean Acidification is another consequence of large increases in atmospheric CO2)
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2019, 10:33 AM   #60
jakesteele
Fait Accompli
 
jakesteele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rain City
Posts: 2,181
Here's an oldie but a goody. I've been doing a lot of things from that book for many years and it gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

https://www.amazon.com/Simple-Things...s%2C235&sr=1-3
__________________

Life is God’s funniest joke
And we are the punchline
jakesteele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2019, 11:25 AM   #61
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,705
This is all good stuff, but none of it really says "climate emergency" to me.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2019, 11:49 AM   #62
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,071
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is all good stuff, but none of it really says "climate emergency" to me.
As a time bomb ticks down towards activation, there is little difference in the state of the device between t-minus 1000 years, and t-minus 1 second.

In your opinion, at what point on that timer is it an "emergency" to act for someone in the blast radius who wishes to avoid the possible effects of the explosion? 1 year?, 1 day?, 1 minute?, or at the time of explosion?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2019, 12:59 PM   #63
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,705
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
As a time bomb ticks down towards activation, there is little difference in the state of the device between t-minus 1000 years, and t-minus 1 second.

In your opinion, at what point on that timer is it an "emergency" to act for someone in the blast radius who wishes to avoid the possible effects of the explosion? 1 year?, 1 day?, 1 minute?, or at the time of explosion?
To me, an emergency connotes a sense of urgency and a willingness to sacrifice good things to meet the urgent need.

It's not a question of when I think it's an emergency. It's a question of when the people calling it an emergency start acting like it's an emergency. Right? When there's a fire in a crowded theater, you yell "fire" and accept the risk of people being injured or killed during the evacuation, because it's an emergency.

The kind of minor improvements and incremental progress being described in this thread come across as more climate inconvenience than climate emergency.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2019, 08:09 PM   #64
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 68,816
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is all good stuff, but none of it really says "climate emergency" to me.
I invite you to teleport down here, where we are baking in 50C+ temperatures, everything is on fire and we are literally choking on smoke.

ETA: For the Celcius-challenged, that's 122F.
__________________
Please scream inside your heart.

Last edited by arthwollipot; 18th December 2019 at 08:15 PM.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2019, 08:18 PM   #65
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 68,816
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To me, an emergency connotes a sense of urgency and a willingness to sacrifice good things to meet the urgent need.

It's not a question of when I think it's an emergency. It's a question of when the people calling it an emergency start acting like it's an emergency. Right? When there's a fire in a crowded theater, you yell "fire" and accept the risk of people being injured or killed during the evacuation, because it's an emergency.

The kind of minor improvements and incremental progress being described in this thread come across as more climate inconvenience than climate emergency.
The people who are calling it an emergency are acting like it's an emergency. Unfortunately the people who have the power to enact sufficient change to do anything about it aren't calling it an emergency.
__________________
Please scream inside your heart.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th December 2019, 08:30 PM   #66
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 7,994
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I invite you to teleport down here, where we are baking in 50C+ temperatures, everything is on fire and we are literally choking on smoke.

ETA: For the Celcius-challenged, that's 122F.
For our American friends, that's roughly equivalent to the mid-summer temps in Death Valley, CA. Only over most of Australia.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2019, 03:37 AM   #67
wobs
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hull
Posts: 2,264
UK says it is planning to go to net zero carbon by 2050.

Meanwhile, the UK opens a new coal mine:
https://www.envirotech-online.com/ne...-decades/50754
- For coke production, so to make steel, we still need coal.

Are there alternatives? Maybe, but we need more electricity capacity, with more renewables and nuclear. Its not so simple though:
https://leard.frontlineaction.org/co...-alternatives/
__________________
"To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."
wobs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2019, 03:42 AM   #68
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,046
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The people who are calling it an emergency are acting like it's an emergency. Unfortunately the people who have the power to enact sufficient change to do anything about it aren't calling it an emergency.
Perhaps a certain event, which occurred very recently in the U.S.A., can give you a little hope about this.

Besides, I hope for you you have air conditioning, and that power isn't out where you live.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2019, 03:48 AM   #69
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,046
Originally Posted by wobs View Post
UK says it is planning to go to net zero carbon by 2050.

Meanwhile, the UK opens a new coal mine:
https://www.envirotech-online.com/ne...-decades/50754
- For coke production, so to make steel, we still need coal.

Are there alternatives? Maybe, but we need more electricity capacity, with more renewables and nuclear. Its not so simple though:
https://leard.frontlineaction.org/co...-alternatives/
This sounds reasonable. Another important idea, I rarely hear about, is a massive reduction of useless military spending in order to be able to pay for more solar panels, wind turbines, and safe nuclear power stations.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2019, 07:43 AM   #70
bobdroege7
Illuminator
 
bobdroege7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,197
We may spend more on fossil fuel subsidies than we do on military spending. Using the global we here.

https://www.vox.com/2019/5/17/186247...es-climate-imf

That source says 5.2 trillion per year or 6% global GDP.

We could de-carbonize the world easily with that kind of cash. Even if only 10% of it is real money.
__________________
Un-american Jack-booted thug

Graduate of a liberal arts college!

Faster play faster faster play faster
bobdroege7 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2019, 07:51 AM   #71
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,684
At times of zero to negative interest rates on Public Debt, money for investment is really no issue. The Fed could issue a 100-year Climate Bond of 2% in the Trillion range, and investors would be exited to have a safe haven to park their money.
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2019, 03:14 PM   #72
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 7,994
Just to show you how much we are on fire here, check out these maps which show the actual area burned recently, which can be overlaid on various world cities.

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...lng=-73.941155

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...g=-118.1799805

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...g=-77.00941858

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...&lng=-0.110296
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2019, 05:26 PM   #73
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 68,816
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Perhaps a certain event, which occurred very recently in the U.S.A., can give you a little hope about this.

Besides, I hope for you you have air conditioning, and that power isn't out where you live.
I do, and it isn't. However, I do have a close friend who does not, and who lost power for about five hours yesterday.

I've got her dog.
__________________
Please scream inside your heart.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2019, 06:03 PM   #74
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,724
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To me, an emergency connotes a sense of urgency and a willingness to sacrifice good things to meet the urgent need.

It's not a question of when I think it's an emergency. It's a question of when the people calling it an emergency start acting like it's an emergency. Right? When there's a fire in a crowded theater, you yell "fire" and accept the risk of people being injured or killed during the evacuation, because it's an emergency.

The kind of minor improvements and incremental progress being described in this thread come across as more climate inconvenience than climate emergency.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th December 2019, 11:16 AM   #75
Doghouse Reilly
Adrift on an uncharted sea
 
Doghouse Reilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,402
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Wow, great rebuttal. I look forward to more of your insightful commentary.
Doghouse Reilly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th December 2019, 11:29 AM   #76
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 20,185
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To me, an emergency connotes a sense of urgency and a willingness to sacrifice good things to meet the urgent need.

It's not a question of when I think it's an emergency. It's a question of when the people calling it an emergency start acting like it's an emergency. Right? When there's a fire in a crowded theater, you yell "fire" and accept the risk of people being injured or killed during the evacuation, because it's an emergency.

The kind of minor improvements and incremental progress being described in this thread come across as more climate inconvenience than climate emergency.

If you define 'emergency' not by the situation but by the response, then you're right. What we have is a climate tragedy.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th December 2019, 11:35 AM   #77
BrooklynBaby
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,106
The climate change crowd needs to start practicing what they preach. Until then, they will have richly earned zero credibility.
BrooklynBaby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th December 2019, 11:38 AM   #78
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,955
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The climate change crowd needs to start practicing what they preach. Until then, they will have richly earned zero credibility.
And the climate will just carry on changing, to the detriment of all, regardless of the credibility of any humans.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th December 2019, 11:43 AM   #79
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,684
Efforts to adapt to the change in climate are making countries like China rich, leaving the US in the dust. When America finally comes around to going as Renewable as possible, they will have to import the technology and expertise instead of selling.
And, of course, trillions in coastline property are going to be annihilated.

Climate Change is going to cost the US more and more the longer it pretends it doesn't exist.
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th December 2019, 11:53 AM   #80
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 20,185
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The climate change crowd needs to start practicing what they preach. Until then, they will have richly earned zero credibility.
What would that look like?
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:14 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.