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Old 11th July 2019, 11:35 AM   #761
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Expelling? Genocide isn't expulsion. These are different concepts. Please, tidy up your strawmen.
Well kind of we, are fine calling the Rohingya explushion a genocide even though the deaths are relatively minor compared to the expulsions. You have what 20K deaths vs 700K expulsions and that then hardly seems like a real genocide, just a bit of ethnic cleansing really.

As for the definition of genocide well Here it is

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

So kind of like the Rwanda "genocide" we have to debate what is real genocide vs mere acts of genocide like we saw in Rwanda.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:37 AM   #762
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Racism is real and a very serious problem, but that does not mean that the term "Racism" is not used as a label to discredit your political opponent.
Communism was real in the McCarthy era;that does not mean everybody Tail Gunner Joe accused of being a Communist was one.
I get it wanting a white enthnostate and being afraid of the white genocide are real legitimate things and not markers of white supremacy in themselves. To suggest otherwise would mean people were happy to elect a white supremacist to be president.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:40 AM   #763
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well kind of we, are fine calling the Rohingya explushion a genocide even though the deaths are relatively minor compared to the expulsions.
Who is "we"? I'm not fine calling it a genocide if it's primarily removal. That's ethnic cleansing, which is also pretty bad, but it's not genocide by any sensible definition.

And on that note, I wouldn't look to the UN to come up with sensible definitions of anything.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:40 AM   #764
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Except that it's still not even remotely a defining feature of nationalism, let alone the most defining feature as theprestige claimed. There can be multiple reasons for closed borders, none of which have anything to do with nationalism. Having a nation does not make one nationalistic. Go back and read the definitions again.
Kind of hard to have a nation without drawing a line and privileging those on the inside over those on the outside.

Anyway, I happily concede that I was not using any of the usual dictionary definitions of nationalism.

On the other hand, I'm not sure your claim, that nationalism is a defining feature of all the groups that have been assigned to the alt-right banner, is a correct claim. Or if it is, it is only a defining feature if we expand the definition to include viewpoints substantially similar to your own views on the value of having a sovereign nation that enforces its borders and privileges citizens over non-citizens.

Assuming you actually see value in this. If you're actually an open borders advocate or something, then that's a different story.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:40 AM   #765
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THIS.
There is little practical difference between a government taking over a business and an government regulating it so closely that the business owners need to get approval for anything more important then rearranging the office furniture.

I think you need some regulation to avoid abuses, but I am not a big fan of the government taking over and running businesses. Generally they do a pretty crappy job of it.This is where I disagree with a lot of "progressives" many of whom, I think, have a gut dislike of private business and want everything ran on a non profit basis. Won't work with human beings.
yea I mean in that kind of horrible system you wouldn't bill rape "victims" for their rape kits like is common practice now.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...-rape-kit-exam

And the hate for pharma companies raising prices a mere 40,000% when they are morally required to do so for the benefits of their stockholders are really off putting.
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Old 11th July 2019, 12:32 PM   #766
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
At a point less than those who advocate genocide, but a point greater than ordinary bigots who don't advocate repression and enslavement.

So, intent to commit genocide is sufficiently over the line to take action against; but intent to repress and enslave isn't. Got it.

Personally, I think people and cultures should be held to somewhat higher standards.
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Old 11th July 2019, 12:37 PM   #767
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So, intent to commit genocide is sufficiently over the line to take action against; but intent to repress and enslave isn't. Got it.

Personally, I think people and cultures should be held to somewhat higher standards.
At this point I'd be happy if the discussion centered around proving intent rather than inferring it.
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Old 11th July 2019, 01:10 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Only in comparison with the American prison system.
...and only then when you choose very narrow criteria to compare.


Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And what famine would that be? I was talking about the 1933 famine, which obviously was not on purpose and definitely not to "subdue a population that isn't getting with the program."
Obviously not on purpose? I disagree strongly.

Stalin had already began the process of exiling Ukrainian farmers to Siberia who resisted his forced collectivization policies, his regime raised quotas to staggering levels, and then they literally went house to house taking their food. They used military blockades to prevent food from being imported and people from leaving to seek food.

They made gleaning, the practice of searching for leftover food from harvested fields, punishable by executions. Why would they do that except to force hungry people to starve?


Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If the contention were true then the mortality rates should be relatively stable and independent of the mortality rate in the country at large over the period of existence of the gulag system, the mortality rate being determined by the inherent nature of the gulags as opposed to external influence. Yet what we actually see is that these specific years are outliers, concurrent with outliers in mortality rate in the country at large, respectively due to famine in 1933 and the second world war in 1942-43. The evidence hence doesn't support the contention, it is rather merely cherry-picked and withdrawn from its larger context (ie the concurrent outliers in mortality rate in the country at large).
Uhm, no. There is no reason why the mortality rate shouldn't also be influenced by external factors in addition to the conditions purposefully created by the Stalinist regime.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
ETA: I'm actually curious why one then wouldn't cherry-pick the 1938 peak in gulag mortality given that, although of course still not supporting the contention, this one was at least caused by overcrowding due to the Great Purge and can hence be much easier argued to be a political crime if that's what one would want to argue.
Because there is no reason to cherry-pick when the whole system from beginning to end was a political crime.
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Old 11th July 2019, 01:29 PM   #769
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The United States federal government and its spinoffs had already normalized violence as an acceptable response to speech centuries earlier than that, and was quite happy to perpetuate that normalized violence during the Civil Rights era, at Stonewall, at Kent State and during the entire Vietnam War era, and so on.
And spectators who watched it in their homes on the evening news were rightly horrified by the government violence, and support of the non-violent protesters increased.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Blaming antifa for this just shows either how little you understand of history, or that you're being the hyperpartisan you're accusing others of being.
They should get blamed for what they do. Defending them by saying they're not as bad as the people they attack isn't much of a defense.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So you support fascism then? 'Cause if you actually oppose fascism to any degree, and don't support it actively or tacitly, then you're antifa as well.
Being anti-fascist isn't at all the same thing as being antifa.

Pretty much everyone is anti-fascist except people who are fascist, and even some of them are confused enough to be anti-themselves.

Being antifa, you know the guys with the red & black flags, the black hoodies with the red hankie face coverings, etc., there is a whole ideology there of anarchism & marxism that goes above and beyond just opposing fascism. If you claim antifa is only about opposing fascism, then you're either profoundly ignorant (which can be fixed) or you're lying.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
There's a brain-exploding moment for you. Despite your and others attempts to re-define the term to fit your own straw men and well-poisoning, antifa is anyone and everyone who actively opposed fascism in any way. That what it has always meant.
No, that's wrong. I'm anti-fascist, and I assume you are too, but I am not antifa, nor will I ever be.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:07 PM   #770
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
...and only then when you choose very narrow criteria to compare.
Got any criteria better than, say, comparison of the wages paid in relation to the wages in the country at large on the basis of which to determine whether a prison system is a corrective labour facility or a slave labour facility?

Quote:
Obviously not on purpose? I disagree strongly.

Stalin had already began the process of exiling Ukrainian farmers to Siberia who resisted his forced collectivization policies, his regime raised quotas to staggering levels, and then they literally went house to house taking their food. They used military blockades to prevent food from being imported and people from leaving to seek food.
Yeah, you do realize that each and every one of your assertions isn't just false but demonstrably so, right? I could refer you back to my comment to theprestige in post 748 but there would probably be no point, so I'll just ask you the question again which you've ignored: Where do you get your information?

Quote:
They made gleaning, the practice of searching for leftover food from harvested fields, punishable by executions. Why would they do that except to force hungry people to starve?
Interesting to see you share such a fundamental criticism of private, and state, property. I thought you didn't accept the criticism on the basis of "it's illegal to steal bread but it's legal to let someone starve while you have a warehouse full of food." It's genuinely good to see you support alegality.

Quote:
Uhm, no. There is no reason why the mortality rate shouldn't also be influenced by external factors in addition to the conditions purposefully created by the Stalinist regime.
Oh but the conditions purposefully created by the regime do not support the contention that the system was a slave labour system where people were worked to death. Over 90% came back out after a couple of years, and of those who died most died in the 1933 and WW2 period, the actual percentage attributable to conditions purposefully created by the regime is hence even higher. Furthermore, almost all of those >90% who came back out did so through the regime ordering such, not through escape or something. Was the regime really so incompetent that in trying to create a slave labour system to work people to death, they failed so badly - against their own will - that they managed to release (not even "lose to escapes") >90% instead?

Quote:
Because there is no reason to cherry-pick when the whole system from beginning to end was a political crime.
I know, if you can't go around killing Jews without being sentenced to a couple years of forced labour because of "counter-revolutionary activities" as "enemies of the workers" (article 58 of the Soviet Penal Code, commonly known as "political prisoners" in the West) then what freedom of thought do you even have, right? It's a political crime I tell ya.
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Old 11th July 2019, 06:21 PM   #771
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So, intent to commit genocide is sufficiently over the line to take action against; but intent to repress and enslave isn't. Got it.

Personally, I think people and cultures should be held to somewhat higher standards.
I have not weighed in on when it is appropriate to take action. This is a figment of your fertile imagination. Got it?
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:32 PM   #772
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In fact, some of the same people here demonstrate your point.



Ouch, the irony!



Yeah, people who don't pick one of two sides and stick to it dogmatically are idiots, amirite?

Do you even know what a centrist is, I wonder?



I'm not sure you understood what he meant by hiding behind a keyboard. But you needed to reply something.
If you don't pick a side between fascism and anti fascism? Yes, then you are a centrist idiot.
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:35 PM   #773
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nationalism is pretty much the definition of all groups who don't want open borders.

Do you want open borders? No? Then you're a nationalist.
I want open borders.
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:37 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nazis. The NAZIS were for nationalising industry and production.

Pay attention.
Lol. The term "privatization" was coined in the 1930's to describe what the NSDAP was doing.

You're not one of those "ackshully, the nazis were socialists" morons, are you? For the love of Chthulu, tell me you are not.
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Old 12th July 2019, 02:18 AM   #775
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
If you don't pick a side between fascism and anti fascism?
No, that's not what I said. Read it again.

Quote:
You're not one of those "ackshully, the nazis were socialists" morons, are you?
You're not one of those "let's murder babies!" morons, are you?

Both those questions have exactly the same relevance to our respective contributions to this thread.
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Old 12th July 2019, 02:20 AM   #776
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Being anti-fascist isn't at all the same thing as being antifa.
I'm going to bet that luchog will tell you that "anti-fascist" is what "antifa" means and therefore that if you're anti-fascist you're antifa.
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Old 12th July 2019, 02:42 AM   #777
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Seems reasonable enough. If we can all make up our definitions of words like "nationalisation" why can't we use our own definitions of "antifa" as well?
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Old 12th July 2019, 07:05 AM   #778
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If antifa meant anti fascist, everyone would pronounce it, "ANTI-fa".

But they pronounce it "an-TIFA".

Checkmate, goons.
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Old 12th July 2019, 07:16 AM   #779
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If antifa meant anti fascist, everyone would pronounce it, "ANTI-fa".

But they pronounce it "an-TIFA".

Checkmate, goons.
I think most families have an Auntie Fascist. My Auntie Fascist does double duty as she's also our Crazy Cat Lady. The ratio of cats to firearms is always fluctuating depending on what Auntie's seen on the news recently; last I heard she had nine cats and eleven guns, but two of the guns and one of the cats were rumored to be nonfunctional. She's very well known in her trailer park.
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Old 12th July 2019, 07:36 AM   #780
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Unrelated to the larger topic that is now dominating this thread,

Ngo is getting roasted on Twitter for his bogus claim of having a brain hemorrhage. Many, many people are pointing out his miraculous and swift recovery from such a serious brain injury.

This doesn't really matter much in the larger scheme, but it's nice to know that everyone involved in this situation is a POS.
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Old 12th July 2019, 07:50 AM   #781
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So the brain hemorrhage can't be used as an excuse for his lies?!
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Old 12th July 2019, 08:14 AM   #782
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Unrelated to the larger topic that is now dominating this thread,

Ngo is getting roasted on Twitter for his bogus claim of having a brain hemorrhage. Many, many people are pointing out his miraculous and swift recovery from such a serious brain injury.

This doesn't really matter much in the larger scheme, but it's nice to know that everyone involved in this situation is a POS.
I'd just like to point out that brain hemorrhages aren't necessarily severe and life altering.

https://patient.info/brain-nerves/ex...matoma-leaflet

Quote:
Intracranial extradural haematoma

An extradural haematoma most commonly occurs after a fractured skull caused by a head injury. Typically, an extradural haematoma is caused by a severe head injury - for example, in a road traffic accident.

The blood usually collects in the epidural space soon after a head injury and symptoms are usually noticed quickly. Occasionally, bleeding can occur more slowly and there are only minor symptoms (and so not noticed) until some days after a head injury.
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Old 12th July 2019, 08:37 AM   #783
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Unrelated to the larger topic that is now dominating this thread,

Ngo is getting roasted on Twitter for his bogus claim of having a brain hemorrhage. Many, many people are pointing out his miraculous and swift recovery from such a serious brain injury.

This doesn't really matter much in the larger scheme, but it's nice to know that everyone involved in this situation is a POS.
... According to the people you follow on Twitter.
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Old 12th July 2019, 09:15 AM   #784
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think most families have an Auntie Fascist. My Auntie Fascist does double duty as she's also our Crazy Cat Lady. The ratio of cats to firearms is always fluctuating depending on what Auntie's seen on the news recently; last I heard she had nine cats and eleven guns, but two of the guns and one of the cats were rumored to be nonfunctional. She's very well known in her trailer park.
I know an Auntie Syphilis and a cousin Gonorrhea - I like that name, it sounds like "Gloria," only fancier.
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Old 12th July 2019, 09:23 AM   #785
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
I'd just like to point out that brain hemorrhages aren't necessarily severe and life altering.

https://patient.info/brain-nerves/ex...matoma-leaflet
If he had a diagnosed brain bleed, he would almost certainly remain under medical supervision.
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Old 12th July 2019, 05:12 PM   #786
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
I'd just like to point out that brain hemorrhages aren't necessarily severe and life altering.

https://patient.info/brain-nerves/ex...matoma-leaflet
But he was supposedly diagnosed, and then released from the hospital, within 24 hours. Is that normal, even for a minor injury-based hemorrhage?

And that's the problem - I have no clue, dammit Jim I'm an engineer not a doctor, and I wouldn't count on Twitter and the like for medical diagnosis except in the most flatly obvious and trivial cases, like "Hey fam, how do y'all deal with a head cold?"

Even then, I'd expect a lot of nonsense, really.
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Old 12th July 2019, 05:19 PM   #787
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm going to bet that luchog will tell you that "anti-fascist" is what "antifa" means and therefore that if you're anti-fascist you're antifa.
Certainly, if you're *actively* working against fascists, you qualify. I remember "the guys with red and black flags" as the same Black Bloc anarcho-communists that have shown up at protests throughout the years, always trying to cause minor property damage. And when I say that, I mean going back more than a decade.

Why do they suddenly get the exclusive term "antifascist"? They're not even the only group that sometimes shows up ready to fight, they're just the guys that fight storefront windows and trashcans.
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Old 12th July 2019, 08:25 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Certainly, if you're *actively* working against fascists, you qualify. I remember "the guys with red and black flags" as the same Black Bloc anarcho-communists that have shown up at protests throughout the years, always trying to cause minor property damage. And when I say that, I mean going back more than a decade.

Why do they suddenly get the exclusive term "antifascist"? They're not even the only group that sometimes shows up ready to fight, they're just the guys that fight storefront windows and trashcans.
That black-bloc group are essentially the public face of antifa and garner all the attention there is for antifa and have become synonymous with antifa. If you do a google search for antifa and then go to images, it is Black Bloc as far as the eyes can see. I know there are pacifists and others who consider themselves "antifa" but as far as the general public is concerned, they are the exception and not the rule.
https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa
We are allowed to proclaim that we will stand against fascism, in all its forms, and also be against antifa. It is a kind of double speak and manipulation to say, as one meme does, that to be anti antifa, is to simply be "fa".
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Old 12th July 2019, 10:24 PM   #789
dann
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
I'd just like to point out that brain hemorrhages aren't necessarily severe and life altering.

https://patient.info/brain-nerves/ex...matoma-leaflet

Quote:
Intracranial extradural haematoma

An extradural haematoma most commonly occurs after a fractured skull caused by a head injury. Typically, an extradural haematoma is caused by a severe head injury - for example, in a road traffic accident.

The blood usually collects in the epidural space soon after a head injury and symptoms are usually noticed quickly. Occasionally, bleeding can occur more slowly and there are only minor symptoms (and so not noticed) until some days after a head injury.

Was his skull fractured? Did his alleged head injury seem to be as severe as what might happen in a road traffic accident?
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Old 14th July 2019, 10:34 AM   #790
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
That black-bloc group are essentially the public face of antifa and garner all the attention there is for antifa and have become synonymous with antifa.
I am aware of the fact that many are misinformed. It's an issue, and there's obviously a major disincentive for people to come forward and reveal themselves (although I'll note that United Shades of America featured a few people in a recent episode who were willing to do so). There's actually two mistakes at work - one is conflating Black Bloc anarco-communists with Antifa.

The second is conflating anyone who wears a mask with the Black Bloc folks. Since law enforcement tends to side with the fascists, and have a great deal of state power, it makes sense for even people who are only violent in self defense to conceal their identities. This is the same reason why many protestors in, say, Ferguson wore masks - they knew full well they were dealing with a violent and vindictive police force, so they did what they could to ensure they couldn't be easily ID'd. Those that were found themselves evicted, or sometimes were found in a burned-out car with a bullet in the back of their head.
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Old 14th July 2019, 11:24 AM   #791
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
... This is the same reason why many protestors in, say, Ferguson wore masks - they knew full well they were dealing with a violent and vindictive police force, so they did what they could to ensure they couldn't be easily ID'd. Those that were found themselves evicted, or sometimes were found in a burned-out car with a bullet in the back of their head.
This sounds terrible. Do you have any sources/details?
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Old 14th July 2019, 12:00 PM   #792
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I am aware of the fact that many are misinformed. It's an issue, and there's obviously a major disincentive for people to come forward and reveal themselves (although I'll note that United Shades of America featured a few people in a recent episode who were willing to do so). There's actually two mistakes at work - one is conflating Black Bloc anarco-communists with Antifa.

The second is conflating anyone who wears a mask with the Black Bloc folks. Since law enforcement tends to side with the fascists, and have a great deal of state power, it makes sense for even people who are only violent in self defense to conceal their identities. This is the same reason why many protestors in, say, Ferguson wore masks - they knew full well they were dealing with a violent and vindictive police force, so they did what they could to ensure they couldn't be easily ID'd. Those that were found themselves evicted, or sometimes were found in a burned-out car with a bullet in the back of their head.
Right now, the Portland Police chief is calling for anti masking laws:
https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/201...rotesters.html
There is another side of that coin: wearing a mask and a uniform provides anonymity and enables people to commit violent crimes with impunity. The police and the public should be held accountable for their actions and we should do what we can to make sure of it
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Old 14th July 2019, 01:23 PM   #793
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The second is conflating anyone who wears a mask with the Black Bloc folks. Since law enforcement tends to side with the fascists, and have a great deal of state power, it makes sense for even people who are only violent in self defense to conceal their identities.
Did you watch the video of Ngo's attack? I'm not seeing any self-defense.
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Old 14th July 2019, 01:30 PM   #794
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Those that were found themselves evicted, or sometimes were found in a burned-out car with a bullet in the back of their head.
I too would like to learn more about these incidents.
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Old 14th July 2019, 02:15 PM   #795
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Right now, the Portland Police chief is calling for anti masking laws:
https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/201...rotesters.html
There is another side of that coin: wearing a mask and a uniform provides anonymity and enables people to commit violent crimes with impunity. The police and the public should be held accountable for their actions and we should do what we can to make sure of it
That's a wonderful sentiment, that is almost never has much impact on our reality. And I'd write that "it goes without saying" that criminals will also want to conceal their identities, but...we've already said that.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Did you watch the video of Ngo's attack? I'm not seeing any self-defense.
It's a good thing I wasn't discussing the guy that punched him in particular then, now isn't it?
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Old 15th July 2019, 03:10 AM   #796
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
That black-bloc group are essentially the public face of antifa and garner all the attention there is for antifa and have become synonymous with antifa. If you do a google search for antifa and then go to images, it is Black Bloc as far as the eyes can see. I know there are pacifists and others who consider themselves "antifa" but as far as the general public is concerned, they are the exception and not the rule.
https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa
We are allowed to proclaim that we will stand against fascism, in all its forms, and also be against antifa. It is a kind of double speak and manipulation to say, as one meme does, that to be anti antifa, is to simply be "fa".
Yep great branding by the white supremacists, they get to disassociate with their elements that go into places of worship and kill dozens, but you get a few windows broken and suddenly all their opponents are terrorists.
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Old 15th July 2019, 05:08 AM   #797
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I too would like to learn more about these incidents.
It appears that the crickets have spoken.
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Old 15th July 2019, 08:38 AM   #798
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This sounds terrible. Do you have any sources/details?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I too would like to learn more about these incidents.
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
It appears that the crickets have spoken.
Can I just lend my voice to the deaf ear, I'm utterly intrigued.

.............. anybody?
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Old 16th July 2019, 11:47 AM   #799
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Can I just lend my voice to the deaf ear, I'm utterly intrigued.

.............. anybody?
A quick internet search reveals:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/darren...rched-in-a-car

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2025417
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Old 16th July 2019, 12:03 PM   #800
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Thanks! Now I guess we just need Mumbles to connect these incidents to the FPD, rather than, say, any other plausible explanation.
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