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Old 1st July 2019, 07:15 AM   #81
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
White supremacists are scum and antifa are scum.

They kind of cancel each other out in a way.
When you take a ****, do you flush or do you take another **** on top of it to get rid of it?

So no, they don't " cancell each other out" , they are 2 turds in the same bowl. Nice try.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:20 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Lots of focus on what the anti-fascists were wearing and carrying in that article. The Proud Boys were carrying shields, weapons and wearing helmets as well. Might just want to mention that, for balance if nothing else.
Seems a smart idea of people are planning on attacking you. And as we can see there have been plenty of food based attacks. That are quickly escalating.

How dare people with unpopular opinion defend themselves.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:27 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
They could start by suspending the praxis of giving demonstration permits to extreme right wing groups who only come to Portland because they know there will be violence. What these groups are doing have nothing to do with freedom of speech or the right to peacfully demonstrate, and everything to do with wanting to win a street fight over "leftists".
If they didn't engage in violence there would be none. Don't use abusive husband logic to make a point " you kept piss in me off so I had to hit you.". Grow up,violence isn't an appropriate response to speech.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:28 AM   #84
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I should probably be grateful. Portland is becoming the the magnet for all these violent nutjobs, so the rest of our cities don't have to deal with it nearly as much.

My prediction: Antifa will continue with the sticks and stones approach, injuring many but likely not killing any. Same for Patriot Prayer and their associates. Portland PD will continue to do nothing. Given their proclivity to bring guns, some goon from Patriot Prayer or some other right-wing group will eventually shoot some folks during a skirmish, and the policy will change.

Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
If they didn't engage in violence there would be none. Don't use abusive husband logic to make a point " you kept piss in me off so I had to hit you.". Grow up,violence isn't an appropriate response to speech.
Illiberalism is the new-hotness.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:30 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How do you know what Andy Ngo has done? He's being portrayed as some journalist who just happened to be targeted by Antifa - something that is far from a given. He's a right wing agitator who regularly join extreme right wingers when they come to Portland to fight. He's not a journalist.



I don't know. I know from personal experience that crowd control of this kind is difficult. I also know that the best way to get it to stop is to stop handing out permits. The police know why the Nazis are coming to Portland. They are coming to fight.
Let's get rid off free speech and freedom of assembly.

But not for us, for those. ...other people.

You seem really eager to give up rights when they are not yours.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:34 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'll give them a free pass to fight fascists, because that means someone does it. Law enforcement won't give them a free pass, however, and they should face punishment for what they do.
That makes you a hypocrite. You want groups of thugs to do what you want because you wouldn't give up your own right to protest which is what would happen if a law to do what you want was enacted, as in North America we don't make laws by someone's political beliefs.

My god, how do you see yourself as the good guy here you literally said " I don't care if other people do harm or get arrested as long as they fight my battles for me and I don't have to give anything up. ".
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:36 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I love how "Letting Nazis keep marching in the streets" isn't "escalation" but marching against the Nazis is.

It's the same way someone punching you in the face over and over isn't "escalating" the fight but you hitting them back is.
No is more like how if someone calls you an ******* you are expected to not punch them in the face, but good try.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:36 AM   #88
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I really, really though that the "Paradox of Tolerance" was something everyone at least understood, even if they didn't completely agree with it.

Side A: "We want to kill all the Jews and impose a white supremacist genocidal government and we will use any measure to make that happen."
Side B: "We would rather you.... ya know NOT do that and we will use any measure to make that NOT happen."
Side C: "I can see no difference between Side's A and B. Why do you hate free speech?"
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:40 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
It might be if you were wearing an expensive suit or dress.
I just meant in terms of it being terrorism.


Please, everyone just stop quoting and responding to my recent posts. I take back every single thing I said in the last few days. I have tried to explain that I'm having a breakdown. I want to still be able to visit the forum, but if I have to keep cleaning up messes and fighting with people, I won't be able to. And then I won't have any space at all. Please, take pity on me.

Everyone seems to think I am their enemy because I am trying to be nobody's enemy.

I guess I didn't think of the expensive clothes thing because I wear rags.


EDIT: Like seriously, I just read my post over, and most of it was CRITICIZING antifa. And I've since been criticized for that. But you find the one remark that tried to balance things out and throw it back in my face

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Old 1st July 2019, 07:41 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I really, really though that the "Paradox of Tolerance" was something everyone at least understood, even if they didn't completely agree with it.

Side A: "We want to kill all the Jews and impose a white supremacist genocidal government and we will use any measure to make that happen."
Side B: "We would rather you.... ya know NOT do that and we will use any measure to make that NOT happen."
Side C: "I can see no difference between Side's A and B. Why do you hate free speech?"
If I said I was a supervillian does that give you the right to beat me up because your city is in danger?

You have every right to stop them from enacting their plans, you don't have every right to stop them from talking about how big and scary they are.

That is a free society, they are allowed to swing their fist wherever they like, you can react if it connects.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:46 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You have every right to stop them from enacting their plans, you don't have every right to stop them from talking about how big and scary they are.
Oh I get it. You live in a fantasy world where "gather support and gain legitimacy" isn't "part of the plan."

But this board has taught me to try and find a girl that looks at you the way "free speech supporters" look at Nazis, so there's that.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:47 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I just meant in terms of it being terrorism.


Please, everyone just stop quoting and responding to my recent posts. I take back every single thing I said in the last few days. I have tried to explain that I'm having a breakdown. I want to still be able to visit the forum, but if I have to keep cleaning up messes and fighting with people, I won't be able to. And then I won't have any space at all. Please, take pity on me.

Everyone seems to think I am their enemy because I am trying to be nobody's enemy.

I guess I didn't think of the expensive clothes thing because I wear rags.
Hey man, take this from a social worker and someone who has been there, avoid posting here when you are in legit mental trouble. This place is the cheap whiskey of forums, fun when you are doing okay, horrible when you are going through mental issues.

No idea of our interactions in the past or your political leaning but if talking to a low level professional could help ( obviously in an unofficial capacity) send me a pm and I'll send you my Facebook info. My inbox here is a godawful mess but I'd be more than happy to listen.

And legit, don't care how your politics are, if I can help I will.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:50 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh I get it. You live in a fantasy world where "gather support and gain legitimacy" isn't "part of the plan."

But this board has taught me to try and find a girl that looks at you the way "free speech supporters" look at Nazis, so there's that.
It is, but it's the legal part.

You don't get self defense for punching someone when they say they have scary friends.

You don't get to stop a mugger when he is just walking on the sidewalk behind you.

That is a free society, you are protected by the law till you break it.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:52 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I really, really though that the "Paradox of Tolerance" was something everyone at least understood, even if they didn't completely agree with it.

Side A: "We want to kill all the Jews and impose a white supremacist genocidal government and we will use any measure to make that happen."
Side B: "We would rather you.... ya know NOT do that and we will use any measure to make that NOT happen."
Side C: "I can see no difference between Side's A and B. Why do you hate free speech?"
That "paradox of tolerance" idea sure is a nice handy way to ignore those pesky free speech rules...
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:57 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Side A: "We want to kill all the Jews and impose a white supremacist genocidal government and we will use any measure to make that happen."
Side B: "We would rather you.... ya know NOT do that and we will use any measure to make that NOT happen."
Side C: "I can see no difference between Side's A and B. Why do you hate free speech?"
Where does Andy Ngo fall in this?
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:57 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
That "paradox of tolerance" idea sure is a nice handy way to ignore those pesky free speech rules...
The converse of that is actually being prepared.

If people actually feared groups of nazis roaming about they would arm and patrol their neighborhoods. But they know there is no legit threat, but they also want to punch someone they don't like so suddenly they are super scared of words.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:03 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
It is, but it's the legal part.

You don't get self defense for punching someone when they say they have scary friends.

You don't get to stop a mugger when he is just walking on the sidewalk behind you.

That is a free society, you are protected by the law till you break it.
A few points.

- "Free Society" can't be demanded to a Bob-level "You don't really believe in it until you believe in so much it doesn't actually work." This idea that until I'm ready to watch someone else (never me oddly enough but someone else) be hurt by someone else's "free speech" I just don't believe in it enough does not sit particularly well with me.

- Belief in freedom of speech/expression is not a game of who can defend the most vile ideologies the most.

But those points are mostly academic and about the argument more then anything. There is a core, actual real world distinctioin I think it would help us to address.

To put it broadly (and I'll expand on this, give me a moment) you see Nazism (and other extreme ideologies) as declarations of unpopular opinions, while I see them as declarations of dangerous intent.

You've used the "You can't act until X" metaphor using crimes and while I actually don't think that metaphor works 100%, let offer you counterpoint using that I think does illustrate what I'm talking about.

No, if you stand on the corner holding a sign saying "I'm a bastard" I don't "get" to punch you.

If you stand on the stand on the street corner and declare your intent to commit a crime in the immediate future, we are allowed to react.

Even in legal systems with the broadest practical application of free speech, the concept of "a threat" exists in some way.

You can spout of unpopular opinions in societies that value "free speech." You cannot (nuances and hair splitting of exact circumstances aside) make threats.

In my opinion declaring yourself a Nazi is making a threat, not stating an opinion. You don't have to agree with this, but can you at least now see the distinction that I see?
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:05 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Where does Andy Ngo fall in this?
I don't care.

Again, for the 50th billionth time on this board "LOOKIT LOOKIT I CAN HANDWRING OVER WHERE THE LINE EXACTLY IS!" doesn't impress me and doesn't change my opinion about things.

If I have a pitch black color swatch and a pure white color swatch you screaming "BUT LOOK IT THIS LIGHT GREY ONE AND THIS DARK GREY ONE! WHERE IS THE LINE!!!!!????" doesn't change anything.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:08 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh I get it. You live in a fantasy world where "gather support and gain legitimacy" isn't "part of the plan."

But this board has taught me to try and find a girl that looks at you the way "free speech supporters" look at Nazis, so there's that.
This board has taught me to find a girl that looks at me the way leftists look at violence, so there's that.

Is that an accurate description of your position? You like violence against your opponents? Probably not. That's probably a gross misrepresentation of what you really believe. But that's exactly what you're doing here, presenting a gross misrepresentation of your opponents.

You are capable of making better arguments than this. I've seen it before. But you're failing badly here.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:18 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You like violence against your opponents?
Opponents? No.

Enemies. Yes.

I'll now stand back so I don't get hit with "OOOOHOHHH LOOOOORDY BUT WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE!" shrapnel and surely some form of "WHATABOUT THE LEFT!" whataboutism ricochets.

I have not a ******* clue where we draw the line nor do I care. I know which side the group we've already fought the biggest war in history against is on.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:18 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I love how "Letting Nazis keep marching in the streets" isn't "escalation" but marching against the Nazis is.

It's the same way someone punching you in the face over and over isn't "escalating" the fight but you hitting them back is.
Marching against the Nazis isn't escalation.

Throwing stuff at the Nazis is escalation. Punching the Nazis is escalation.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:20 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
But there is a leadership problem in Portland right now. It is increasingly clear that the standing orders are not to interfere. Ultimately this problem stops at the Mayor. Either he is giving this order or he has lost all control of his department. If he has lost control of the department, he should be yelling it from the rooftops day and night. My money is that the Mayor is complicit in the hands-off approach.

They mayor is definitely complicit in the hand-off approach; but the two situations you describe here are not mutually exclusive.

A lot of people don't realize just how powerful the police unions are these days. "Lost control of the department" is almost universally the case, especially in large cities. I live in a city where the police department was described in a DoJ report as the most violent and corrupt in the nation nearly a decade ago. Said department has been very successful at resisting each and every attempt by the city to instigate reform. Politicians who opposed the unions too strongly find themselves with a powerful enemy when they come up for re-election, or in a few cases find themselves targets of harassment by police.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:23 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
To put it broadly (and I'll expand on this, give me a moment) you see Nazism (and other extreme ideologies) as declarations of unpopular opinions, while I see them as declarations of dangerous intent.
And? Intent in this sense is still just a thought, and thoughts, even not merely unpopular but actually bad thoughts, should not be criminalized.

Quote:
If you stand on the stand on the street corner and declare your intent to commit a crime in the immediate future, we are allowed to react.
That there is the key, though. It really has to be immediate. And in the cases under discussion here, it just isn't.

Quote:
You can spout of unpopular opinions in societies that value "free speech." You cannot (nuances and hair splitting of exact circumstances aside) make threats.
Actually, you can. You can make all sorts of threats. People do so on a regular basis. Only certain very specific sorts of threats are illegal.

Quote:
In my opinion declaring yourself a Nazi is making a threat, not stating an opinion. You don't have to agree with this, but can you at least now see the distinction that I see?
I do, but it still fails. The sort of threats they constitute don't qualify, because 1) they aren't imminent, and 2) they aren't threats of specific illegal actions.

The law allows people to do bad things. It must, because no society can outlaw everything bad and remain free. Furthermore, everyone who obeys the law deserves the full protection of the law. That is a requirement to be a nation of laws not men. This means that people doing bad things will be protected by the law. It is unavoidable without suffering even worse fates.

We have to depend upon most people being mostly good. If they are, then we do not need laws to stop Nazis and their ilk, and laws targeted at them specifically will be counterproductive because the loss of freedom is corrosive. But here's the kicker: if most people are not mostly good, if most people are mostly bad, then no amount of laws can save us. We are doomed anyways, because both the law and its implementation will be corrupted under such conditions. We must bet upon most people being mostly good. It's our only hope.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:25 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
In my opinion declaring yourself a Nazi is making a threat, not stating an opinion. You don't have to agree with this, but can you at least now see the distinction that I see?
There are damned few people who have declared themselves Nazis.

There are a lot more who have had other people declare them to be Nazis, but that really isn't the same thing.

And yes, even for those few self-declared Nazis, I don't think anyone should have the right to punch them in the face.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:28 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
When you take a ****, do you flush or do you take another **** on top of it to get rid of it?

So no, they don't " cancell each other out" , they are 2 turds in the same bowl. Nice try.
Hi, Sadhatter. Good to see you posting in the thread again.

In case you missed it, your previous post was given a very basic challenge. Now, I don't wanna put you on the spot, but I've already placed a substantial wager on which outcome will be shown as true. So hurry up and respond. There's a lot of money on the line!
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:28 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Marching against the Nazis isn't escalation.

Throwing stuff at the Nazis is escalation. Punching the Nazis is escalation.
Only if you think that Nazis are merely marching.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:28 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
They should be classified as terrorists because they are terrorists. They claim to be anti-fascists but they act just like Nazis when they break store windows and loot and destroy property and assault people on the street that disagree with them.

The looting looks like Krystalnach
You seem to be confusing "vandalism" and "looting" with "terrorism."
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:29 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That there is the key, though. It really has to be immediate. And in the cases under discussion here, it just isn't.

I always liked the "clear and present danger" test. Unfortunately, people don't think about the words that they say, and so I hear variations of "That guy did something which led me to believe he might do something violent in the future. When someone does that, they pose a clear and present danger."


No. No. Not at all. He poses a vague and future danger. Quite the opposite of what was intended.


In the case of the post you responded to, the word in question was "immediate", but the same principle applies. "That guy is menacing and might do something later. That's an immediate threat."
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:33 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't care.

Again, for the 50th billionth time on this board "LOOKIT LOOKIT I CAN HANDWRING OVER WHERE THE LINE EXACTLY IS!" doesn't impress me and doesn't change my opinion about things.

If I have a pitch black color swatch and a pure white color swatch you screaming "BUT LOOK IT THIS LIGHT GREY ONE AND THIS DARK GREY ONE! WHERE IS THE LINE!!!!!????" doesn't change anything.
Blasphemy! For me to direct your statement to the subject of the thread in such an underhanded fashion must not be tolerated. Roll on, good sir.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:34 AM   #110
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Guys if "We've demonized the left to the point we have to defend the Nazis to maintain the balance" doesn't cause at least a little bit of soul searching in you, call up Thanos and ask for a job protecting the Soul Stone because... you're gone.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:38 AM   #111
luchog
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I always liked the "clear and present danger" test. Unfortunately, people don't think about the words that they say, and so I hear variations of "That guy did something which led me to believe he might do something violent in the future. When someone does that, they pose a clear and present danger."

No. No. Not at all. He poses a vague and future danger. Quite the opposite of what was intended.

In the case of the post you responded to, the word in question was "immediate", but the same principle applies. "That guy is menacing and might do something later. That's an immediate threat."

If adherents of a violent, genocidal ideology with a history of violent activity showing up in your town en masse carrying weapons and shields doesn't qualify as a clear and present danger; well, then your definition of clear and present danger definitely needs reconsideration.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:39 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Where does Andy Ngo fall in this?
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't care.
That's exactly the problem. Andy Ngo should fall squarely in the category of people who don't deserve to be assaulted. But your appologism leads to people like him getting assaulted.

Quote:
Again, for the 50th billionth time on this board "LOOKIT LOOKIT I CAN HANDWRING OVER WHERE THE LINE EXACTLY IS!" doesn't impress me and doesn't change my opinion about things.
People are being assaulted. I'm not sure why concern over that is something you feel comfortable about dismissing. But given your indifference to such assaults, I'm not sure why the failure of an argument to impress or convince you is a standard that anyone else should care about.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:43 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I'm kinda wondering if you understand that there's no uppercase A in antifa, no membership card and no organization, per se, but a bunch of disparate groups variously referring to themselves as antifa.

Plus, like various White Nationalists, any group you decide to identify as "terrorist" is going to say, "Oh, we're not THAT antifa, we're the ones with the family picnics and the school breakfast programs.

You probably can't even attribute membership in the same antifa clique to everyone who was there on Saturday. The ***** who attacked him should be arrested and prosecuted.
Portland Antifa are pretty well organized. I heard them interviewed on a podcast a few months ago, and they didn't strike me as a bunch of disparate groups.

Note that capital A. Rose City Antifa.

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About
Who We Are
We are Rose City Antifa. We oppose fascist organizing in physical, cultural, and political spaces through direct action, education, and solidarity.

Our History
Rose City Antifa [RCA] was founded in Portland, Oregon in October, 2007 to confront fascist organizing taking place in our home town. Our organization formed following the successful efforts of the Ad-Hoc Coalition Against Racism and Fascism to shut down Hammerfest, a neo-Nazi skinhead festival that drew over one hundred boneheads to the Portland area in early October, 2007. We seek to continue the work of the Ad-Hoc Coalition, as well as countless anti-racist community organizers, anti-racist skinheads, and other individuals who have worked to oppose racial prejudice and bigotry in our communities.

​Rose City Antifa opposes fascist organizing through direct action, education, and by maintaining political and cultural Left spaces.

Direct action includes all activity that immediately stops, subverts or opposes public organizing by fascists. Our two goals in this are: prevention and/or consequences. We assess each scenario to determine which of these two directives seems most relevant, and proceed accordingly. When it is not logistically possible to prevent fascist organizing itself, we provide consequences to the organizers. An example of this is our successful “outing” campaign in August of 2008 revealing the organizing efforts of several key Volksfront members to their neighbors and co-workers. (Volksfront is an international white supremacist organization that originated in Portland.) The boneheads in this case were "outed" as a result of their participation in a nationwide white pride event in Missouri. Some lost their jobs, some even moved out of state after this campaign. The direct action component is supported by the constant research and monitoring of fascist organizations.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:44 AM   #114
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Opponents? No.

Enemies. Yes.

I'll now stand back so I don't get hit with "OOOOHOHHH LOOOOORDY BUT WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE!" shrapnel and surely some form of "WHATABOUT THE LEFT!" whataboutism ricochets.

I have not a ******* clue where we draw the line nor do I care. I know which side the group we've already fought the biggest war in history against is on.
This isn't a battle between Nazis and everyone else. There are more than two sides. Antifa has a very large communist component. And if you want to appeal to history, the United States has fought some bloody fights with communists too, and communists have killed far more people than Nazis ever did. To use your color swatch analogy, it's not black versus white, it's black vs red vs white. And you want me to ignore the red because you're color blind.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:50 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's exactly the problem. Andy Ngo should fall squarely in the category of people who don't deserve to be assaulted. But your appologism leads to people like him getting assaulted.

Are you still pretending Any Ngo is a journalist?

Quote:
People are being assaulted. I'm not sure why concern over that is something you feel comfortable about dismissing. But given your indifference to such assaults, I'm not sure why the failure of an argument to impress or convince you is a standard that anyone else should care about.

Funny how when it's neo-Nazis doing the assaulting they're "exercising their free speech"; but when people show up to try and stop the assaults they're "terrorists".

Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Portland Antifa are pretty well organized. I heard them interviewed on a podcast a few months ago, and they didn't strike me as a bunch of disparate groups.

If you think they're they only people identifying as "antifa" in Portland, you're really not paying attention. This is one small group out of hundreds, if not thousands, of antifa groups nationwide which may or may not be similarly organized, not to mention the many, many more individuals who accept the antifa label without being members of any particular organization or group.

"Antifa" is no more organized than "fascists" are, they're both broad umbrella terms that cover a wide variety of individuals and groups with similar worldviews and goals.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:52 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
If adherents of a violent, genocidal ideology with a history of violent activity showing up in your town en masse carrying weapons and shields doesn't qualify as a clear and present danger; well, then your definition of clear and present danger definitely needs reconsideration.
I can think of another "test" to decide what constitutes a "clear and present danger". Basically, you are entitled to act violently to defend yourself or others when there is not a policeman near to do so. Because that would be their job.

If you see someone coming at you, no policemen on sight, and you are certain that the aggresion will happen, run away. If not possible, counterattack. So if you see an attitude (weapon wielding, actual threats, etc) that if there was a policeman present they would have to act to suppress, you can in a way become a "self deputized" citizen and do something, defend the weak, whatever, and the law should allow for that.

But a public demonstration with plenty of policemen present, in which only vague slogans are chanted etc. does not pass this test.
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Old 1st July 2019, 09:16 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Are you still pretending Any Ngo is a journalist?
Are we supposed to be pretending he's a fascist?
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Old 1st July 2019, 09:22 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A few points.

- "Free Society" can't be demanded to a Bob-level "You don't really believe in it until you believe in so much it doesn't actually work." This idea that until I'm ready to watch someone else (never me oddly enough but someone else) be hurt by someone else's "free speech" I just don't believe in it enough does not sit particularly well with me.

- Belief in freedom of speech/expression is not a game of who can defend the most vile ideologies the most.

But those points are mostly academic and about the argument more then anything. There is a core, actual real world distinctioin I think it would help us to address.

To put it broadly (and I'll expand on this, give me a moment) you see Nazism (and other extreme ideologies) as declarations of unpopular opinions, while I see them as declarations of dangerous intent.

You've used the "You can't act until X" metaphor using crimes and while I actually don't think that metaphor works 100%, let offer you counterpoint using that I think does illustrate what I'm talking about.

No, if you stand on the corner holding a sign saying "I'm a bastard" I don't "get" to punch you.

If you stand on the stand on the street corner and declare your intent to commit a crime in the immediate future, we are allowed to react.

Even in legal systems with the broadest practical application of free speech, the concept of "a threat" exists in some way.

You can spout of unpopular opinions in societies that value "free speech." You cannot (nuances and hair splitting of exact circumstances aside) make threats.

In my opinion declaring yourself a Nazi is making a threat, not stating an opinion. You don't have to agree with this, but can you at least now see the distinction that I see?
Not at all.

No more than declaring yourself a gangsta,hustler, thug, etc is. People often adopt criminal subcultures for a sense of power , they do not become fair game for justice vigilante or otherwise unless actually committing a crime.

I can't proactively mace someone in a 'thug life' shirt because thugs commit crimes , it isn't until I observe an actual crime that I can act in any way.

And this doesn't change if I see 10, 100, or 1000 people in similar shirts gathering.
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Old 1st July 2019, 09:26 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Hi, Sadhatter. Good to see you posting in the thread again.

In case you missed it, your previous post was given a very basic challenge. Now, I don't wanna put you on the spot, but I've already placed a substantial wager on which outcome will be shown as true. So hurry up and respond. There's a lot of money on the line!
To engage in said test I would have to violate forum rules on cross thread posting. So no I will not get a yellow card for you.

I think my point is obvious without getting myself an infraction thank you.
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Old 1st July 2019, 09:29 AM   #120
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
If adherents of a violent, genocidal ideology with a history of violent activity showing up in your town en masse carrying weapons and shields doesn't qualify as a clear and present danger; well, then your definition of clear and present danger definitely needs reconsideration.
Or you are overly scared.

I have plenty of friends and plenty of legal weapons. Not scared of a bunch of idiots with sticks and surplus helmets.

But I'm not going to apply them till there is actual illegal things happening. Thankfully you don't have any, you seem a bit paranoid.
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