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Tags David Headley , Mumbai incidents , Pakistan issues , Pakistan-India relations , terrorism incidents

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Old 24th May 2011, 01:51 AM   #1
Puppycow
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Pakistan abetted the Mumbai attacks

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/26...headley-107805

Quote:
Chicago: The government's leading witness in a high-profile terrorism trial told jurors here on Monday that the group behind the 2008 attack on Mumbai, India, had ties to Pakistan's intelligence service.

In testimony that prosecutors said offered a "rare look" inside a major terrorist plot, David C. Headley said he had trained with the Islamist militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba between 2002 and 2005 in preparation for scouting locations to attack in India. In 2006, Mr. Headley said, he met a member of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence Agency who offered to provide financial support for that surveillance.

In testimony so painstaking that the judge and some jurors seemed to nod off at the mundane details of a plot that left 163 people dead, Mr. Headley described how he changed his name and used his American passport to portray himself alternately as a tourist or a businessman, concealing his Muslim faith and his Pakistani roots so he could travel easily across borders. He said he provided hours of video of potential targets in Mumbai to his handlers in both ISI and Lashkar.

"I understood these groups operated under the umbrella of the ISI," he said, referring to Lashkar. "They coordinated with each other."
That would make Pakistan a State Sponsor of Terrorism.

Inconvenient.
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Old 24th May 2011, 02:43 AM   #2
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I see no mention of its civilian government being involved. As far as I understand, the ISI is out of its control.
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Old 24th May 2011, 04:54 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
I see no mention of its civilian government being involved. As far as I understand, the ISI is out of its control.
It is? How is the ISI funded? How do they assert authority? How are the ISI leaders chosen?

It strains credibility that the ISI is out of the government's control.
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Old 24th May 2011, 07:56 AM   #4
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CT
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Old 24th May 2011, 09:10 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
CT
It's definitely got more substance than a usual CT. Indeed wikileaks revealed that the US regard the ISI as a terrorist organisation. They've certainly been Involved in aiding both the Taliban and Kashmir groups.... and it would appear they were complicit in sheltering Osama, them turning a blind eye to the Mumbai attacks is hardly a left field notion.....
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Old 24th May 2011, 09:23 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by andyandy View Post
them turning a blind eye to the Mumbai attacks is hardly a left field notion.....
Not just turning a blind eye, but actively involved in the planning and execution of the Mumbai attack. That is Headley's testimony thus far.

Quote:
In his testimony, Headley made several links to Pakistan's major intelligence service, Inter-Services Intelligence directorate (ISI), and the Pakistani government. He said that he believed Lashkar and ISI regularly "coordinated." He also said he attended a planning meeting for the Mumbai assault that included a "navy frogman" from the Pakistani government. He identified a co-defendant identified in the indictment only as "Major Iqbal" as a member of ISI.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,2369574.story
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Old 24th May 2011, 10:13 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
It is? How is the ISI funded? How do they assert authority? How are the ISI leaders chosen?
Lynndie England, of Abu Ghraib notoriety--how was she funded? How did she assert authority? How were military personnel like England chosen?

Quote:
It strains credibility that the ISI is out of the government's control.
It strains credibility that Lynndie England was out of the government's control.
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Old 24th May 2011, 10:38 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Lynndie England, of Abu Ghraib notoriety--how was she funded? How did she assert authority? How were military personnel like England chosen?
Lynndie England went to prison along with other Abu Ghraib asshats. Can you list the people Pakistan has arrested for the Mumbai attack?

Hell, they denied the one guy captured was even a Pakistani citizen for over a month.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It strains credibility that Lynndie England was out of the government's control.
She wasn't, as her prosecution and imprisonment shows. Having control doesn't mean you have to prevent all wrongdoing by your people, but it does demand that you investigate and prosecute to the best of your abilities when it occurs.
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Old 24th May 2011, 10:44 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
It is? How is the ISI funded? How do they assert authority?
By killing people. While the Marriott Hotel bombing may nominaly have been targeted at US forces its long been rumored that the real target was pakistani leadership or at the very least it was a warning.

Quote:
How are the ISI leaders chosen?
Political bunfight. Anyone who the ISI doesn't like will be labeled as the US's candidate.

Quote:
It strains credibility that the ISI is out of the government's control.
You are forgetting how messed up Pakistan actualy is at this point. Quite a lot of things are out of the goverment's control.
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Old 24th May 2011, 10:47 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Not just turning a blind eye, but actively involved in the planning and execution of the Mumbai attack. That is Headley's testimony thus far.
Well yes training islamic extremists for attacks on india has been pakistani doctrine for years. This ranges from the fairly conventional Kargil War to the less conventional 2001 Indian Parliament attack.
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Old 24th May 2011, 10:52 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
By killing people. While the Marriott Hotel bombing may nominaly have been targeted at US forces its long been rumored that the real target was pakistani leadership or at the very least it was a warning.



Political bunfight. Anyone who the ISI doesn't like will be labeled as the US's candidate.



You are forgetting how messed up Pakistan actualy is at this point. Quite a lot of things are out of the goverment's control.
Then perhaps we should recognize the ISI as Pakistan's government?
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Old 24th May 2011, 12:50 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
It strains credibility that the ISI is out of the government's control.
I really don't think it does. There is a wide range of thought that it is a imperium in imperio.

Thus, I think the OP's title is grossly unfair. If anyone has felt the brutality of Islamic extremism, it's Pakistan. It's also at the frontline of the fight against it. It seems the world's press seems to have overlooked this.
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Old 24th May 2011, 01:09 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
I really don't think it does. There is a wide range of thought that it is a imperium in imperio.

Thus, I think the OP's title is grossly unfair. If anyone has felt the brutality of Islamic extremism, it's Pakistan. It's also at the frontline of the fight against it. It seems the world's press seems to have overlooked this.
I think Pakistan's government knows exactly what the ISI is doing. And I'm pretty certain the Obama admin. is thinking the same thing, though they can't say it publicly.
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Old 24th May 2011, 04:20 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Then perhaps we should recognize the ISI as Pakistan's government?
Well indeed it is often referred to as a state within a state. I think also that the ISI and the army are difficult to disentangle.

It's a big mess.
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Old 24th May 2011, 04:26 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
I think Pakistan's government knows exactly what the ISI is doing. And I'm pretty certain the Obama admin. is thinking the same thing, though they can't say it publicly.
I don't think that is true.

Or if it is true then what the Hell have successive US governments been doing sending billions of dollars of military aid to the governement of Pakistan?

If the Pakistani government is deliberately allowing the ISI to run terrorist operations against India (possible, particularly in the case of Lashkar-e-Taiba) by training militants who themselves turn their own guns on Pakistani civil society and politicians (and then this would include Taliban and al-Qaeda) then part of the problem is the flow of money coming into the Pakistan from the US!

It needn't be a case of Obama saying what he is thinking but acting on what he is thinking.

But then the argument is, "Ahhh! But if the US doesn't give military aid to Pakistan's government which will then funnel it towards terrorist acts against India then the Taliban could take over Pakistan and steal the nukes."

So, the method of preventing terrorism is then the cause of the problem in the first place, no?
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Old 24th May 2011, 05:22 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't think that is true.

Or if it is true then what the Hell have successive US governments been doing sending billions of dollars of military aid to the governement of Pakistan?
Hoping to bribe them to our side through diplomatic engagement. Your other options are sanctioning them, or waging war on them.

You can't wish the problem away.
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Old 24th May 2011, 05:53 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Hoping to bribe them to our side through diplomatic engagement. Your other options are sanctioning them, or waging war on them.

You can't wish the problem away.
The problem is that Pakistan's military/ISI are concerned primarily with one foreign policy issue and that is conflict with India over Kashmir. Afghanistan is really an extension of that policy.

The money goes to Pakistan and their thought is not, "Ah! Now we'll play nice." It's "Ah! More money to fight India!" or "If being bad gets us money then we'll be bad."

If the policy really is giving money until Pakistan becomes a "nice" country then what incentive does that give Pakistan to be nice? Being nice will lose them the money they want.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 24th May 2011, 06:26 PM   #18
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Pakistan suffers from the war on terror. 30,000 dead including 3600 military and police. We have strong allies there. This situation is complex indeed, I could do no better than this article in the Financial Times today.
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Old 24th May 2011, 07:00 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Pakistan suffers from the war on terror. 30,000 dead including 3600 military and police. We have strong allies there. This situation is complex indeed, I could do no better than this article in the Financial Times today.
Pakistan is NOT a strong ally, if I am an American and reviewing my allies in various parts of the world.
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Old 24th May 2011, 07:09 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Pakistan is NOT a strong ally, if I am an American and reviewing my allies in various parts of the world.
The biggest problem is knowing what country you are dealing with. Even Sybil only had 13 personalities.
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Old 24th May 2011, 07:32 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Then perhaps we should recognize the ISI as Pakistan's government?
Problem is that the US hasn't really worked out how to deal with the ISI. It would also change the US's traditional policy of recognising the Pakistani army as the defaco ruling body (or at least the group with the most power in the country that is both vaguely competent and just about able to work with us).
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Old 24th May 2011, 08:36 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Pakistan is NOT a strong ally, if I am an American and reviewing my allies in various parts of the world.
I would agree with you, I merely said that we have strong allies there in the context of the article I posted. They might be in the minority but they exist.
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Old 24th May 2011, 10:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Pakistan suffers from the war on terror. 30,000 dead including 3600 military and police. We have strong allies there. This situation is complex indeed, I could do no better than this article in the Financial Times today.
Thanks for posting that article. Anatol Lieven is the author of a book on Pakistan that's just been published that I was interested in. From what I've read of the reviews he seems to think that the US should cut back or end its drone warfare and fund the right elements in Pakistan to fight against the Pakistani Taliban.

This is ominous:

Quote:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f1c18c96-8...#ixzz1NKwVG5KG


Once the Pakistani Taliban emerged as a real threat to the Pakistani state, however, the mood changed considerably. Atrocities by the Taliban against civilians and troops helped, as has military propaganda that India is helping the Pakistani Taliban in order to destroy Pakistan. There is not a shred of evidence for this but it has done wonders for morale.
In other words, the Pakistani military rank-and-file don't want to fight for America and the general population don't seem to either. The only thing going for the US's war against the Taliban (and that's the Pakistani Taliban) is the belief - or conspiracy theory - that India are funding them to destroy Pakistan and win the war that's been going on between the two countries since Partition.

It's somewhat reassuring that Lieven doesn't think Pakistan will completely fall apart but still a bit worrying that the only reason for it not doing so is its determination not to let India be the last man standing.

I remember reading Steve Coll's book Ghost Wars a few years ago and was surprised by just how much this conflict is exacerbated by Pakistan's struggle with India over Kashmir.

Essentially, many of the terrorist camps were set up in Afghanistan with ISI assistance to train militants there against India in Kashmir. Afghanistan was also thought by Pakistan's military to give Pakistan "strategic depth" should India ever invade. Presumably the country would be able to then act as a kind of Ho Chi-Minh Trail from which its military could launch attacks against Indian forces - or something like that. But, as Ahmed Rashid has pointed out the effect has been for the Afghan Taliban to instead use Pakistan as strategic depth against US/NATO occupation. According to Lieven this is widely endorsed by the Pakistani public in general.

So, it's a big mess...
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 24th May 2011, 10:43 PM   #24
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Here's a review of Lieven's book and another one on Pakistan that got me interested:

Quote:
IT IS a shame that these books should be published at a time when the world is riveted by events in the Middle East. Pakistan’s population is more than half the size of the entire Arab world; for most of the past three decades it has been involved in a war with a superpower, first against it, and now on the same side as it; it suffers from an Islamic insurgency that has killed 30,000 people over the past four years; it is regarded by students of geopolitics as the most likely location of nuclear conflict; and the reasons why it does not work as a country are many and fascinating.
Well, it's lucky for the two books that Osama bin Laden's assassination put Pakistan back in the spotlight as well as the recent terrorist attacks such as at the Karachi military base.

http://www.economist.com/node/18526715
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 25th May 2011, 03:16 AM   #25
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Thanks for sharing that book, and making those points, I intend to read it, and do more research on them. It seems like a great time to get interested in world events, Osama is gone, democracy is actually a topic in the middle east, social networking is helping the youth organize, the information revolution is in full swing, the embarrassing fortunes of the Republicans is doing wonders for the forces of rationalist government. It's a good time! These things affect my heart but not my cynical soul

I wouldn't say the India CT is the only thing motivating the Pakistanis against the Taliban. They wouldn't be allowing the Taliban to terrorize them just because there's no evidence it was the Indians. It's certainly a sad fact that it appears to boost their morale so much, but that's really besides the point. The taliban are openly terrorizing them to gain control and they don't like it, they will fight against them no matter what.

Another police station today

Quote:
“We will continue attacks on security forces until an Islamic system is implemented in Pakistan, because the Pakistani system is un-Islamic,”

There appears to be a lot of angles that need addressing simultaneously if we are going to work with anyone.

The wares of wikileaks...

Quote:
The 9/11 attack was a Jewish conspiracy, the CIA runs the American media, MI-5 runs the BBC: commonplace conspiracy theories on the Internet and, as a U.S. military officer found out while he attended a course at one of Pakistan's premier military education institutes, common too among senior officers of the Pakistan military.
And they say conspiracy theories are harmless. I would rather prefer this not be the case.

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Old 25th May 2011, 05:08 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
I wouldn't say the India CT is the only thing motivating the Pakistanis against the Taliban. They wouldn't be allowing the Taliban to terrorize them just because there's no evidence it was the Indians.
Many Pakistanis blame not the Taliban for the terrorist attacks, but Jews.
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Old 28th May 2011, 04:05 AM   #27
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How many?
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Old 28th May 2011, 06:40 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
How many?
It's a popular enough conspiracy theory there that even the Pakistani army publicly blames Israel for Taliban atrocities:
Quote:
The military on Tuesday dropped pamphlets with images of Taliban brutality, before a possible military operation in North Waziristan. The pamphlet gave a detailed account of Taliban power deriving from links with “anti-Islamic (Indian) RAW and (Israeli) Mossad intelligence agencies and Indian consulates in Afghanistan.” It also informed the tribal people about the Taliban’s source of income, which is mainly generated from drug smugglers and “contacts” (India and Israel).
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...3-3-2010_pg7_2

Winning hearts and minds by blaming the Jews, as well as India of course.
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