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Tags Benghazi , Benghazi attack , terrorism incidents

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Old 8th May 2013, 01:08 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Why can't you answer my questions?

What, exactly, is the issue with SOCAFRICA denying authorization for the four Special Forces soldiers in Tripoli to go on the 6:30 AM flight? Be specific.

Why do you think he kept talking about the lack of fighters and why did he not correct the questioner when the questioner talked about "if the military had allowed a jet to fly over" when he was very specifically told why no fighter was available for a Benghazi mission?
I'm interested in hearing 16.5's answer to these questions, which I notice have remained unanswered.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:16 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Gregory Hicks, the deputy chief of mission in Libya during the Sept. 11, 2012, attacks, testified before a House committee that he was frustrated when the U.S. military turned down a request to dispatch four Special Operations troops from Tripoli to Benghazi the next morning, saying he felt they were urgently needed to help evacuate Americans.

“People in Benghazi had been fighting all night,” he said. “They were tired, exhausted. We wanted to make sure the airport was secure for their withdrawal.”
Which confirms exactly what I said earlier in this thread about how they knew that those four troops would not have been able to help during the actual attack on the Annex, and that they would have been sent knowing that Benghazi was already in the process of evacuation.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:18 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Gregory Hicks, the deputy chief of mission in Libya during the Sept. 11, 2012, attacks, testified before a House committee that he was frustrated when the U.S. military turned down a request to dispatch four Special Operations troops from Tripoli to Benghazi the next morning, saying he felt they were urgently needed to help evacuate Americans.

“People in Benghazi had been fighting all night,” he said. “They were tired, exhausted. We wanted to make sure the airport was secure for their withdrawal.”
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm interested in hearing 16.5's answer to these questions, which I notice have remained unanswered.
That "is the issue with SOCAFRICA denying authorization for the four Special Forces soldiers in Tripoli to go on the 6:30 AM flight?"

Last edited by The Big Dog; 8th May 2013 at 01:26 PM. Reason: Making things easier for the pedants
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:22 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
That is why Hicks asked for the Special Ops troops.
Which wasn't one of the two questions.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:24 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
That is why Hicks asked for the Special Ops troops.
Like ANTPogo says, your answer did not belong to any of the questions.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:25 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
No, it means you make an estimate based on the information that you think is the most reliable, and you probably also add the disclaimer that the issue is still being investigated and the estimate could change, and then change that estimate based on the new information you learn in the course of that investigation.

Like this.
If they had wanted to use the most reliable information then they should have used the information given to them by the people who were actually there. The ones who have said that there was no protests going on at the location and hadn't been any all day long.

The narrative being pushed wholeheartedly by the administration for a week was that it was because of the video and that it had nothing to do with the date. They later reversed that opinion but only after the news cycle had moved on to other things and the evidence was overwhelmingly against their first position. It reeks of playing politics just before an election, after all, who would want to be the guy who missed a terrorist attack and didn't even attempt to send the help being requested by the people under attack?
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:26 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Like ANTPogo says, your answer did not belong to any of the questions.
Lets agree to disagree.

Thanks.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:26 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
If they had wanted to use the most reliable information then they should have used the information given to them by the people who were actually there. The ones who have said that there was no protests going on at the location and hadn't been any all day long.
Again, you're conflating "there was no protest against the video outside the consulate which preceded the attack on the consulate" and "the video had nothing to do with the motivations for the attack on the consulate".
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:30 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Lets agree to disagree.

Thanks.
Let's not, and let's have you answer the questions, or admit that you can't/won't.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:32 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Lets agree to disagree.

Thanks.
Your edit still isn't any kind of answer.

What, precisely, do you think is the problem with the denial of authorization for four pistol-armed troops on a non-combat assignment to travel to the Benghazi airport to help with the evacuation and instead having them stay in Tripoli where the potential security issue was still unclear, such that this denial of authorization needs to be brought up in Congressional hearings?
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:33 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Let's not, and let's have you answer the questions, or admit that you can't/won't.
Let me make it easy, friend:

The "the issue with SOCAFRICA denying authorization for the four Special Forces soldiers in Tripoli to go on the 6:30 AM flight" is that Gregory Hicks, the deputy chief of mission in Libya during the Sept. 11, 2012, attacks, testified before a House committee that he was frustrated when the U.S. military turned down a request to dispatch four Special Operations troops from Tripoli to Benghazi the next morning, saying he felt they were urgently needed to help evacuate Americans.

“People in Benghazi had been fighting all night,” he said. “They were tired, exhausted. We wanted to make sure the airport was secure for their withdrawal.”


I've answered it as best I can. Thanks for asking, again.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:35 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Let me make it easy, friend:

The "the issue with SOCAFRICA denying authorization for the four Special Forces soldiers in Tripoli to go on the 6:30 AM flight" is that Gregory Hicks, the deputy chief of mission in Libya during the Sept. 11, 2012, attacks, testified before a House committee that he was frustrated when the U.S. military turned down a request to dispatch four Special Operations troops from Tripoli to Benghazi the next morning, saying he felt they were urgently needed to help evacuate Americans.

“People in Benghazi had been fighting all night,” he said. “They were tired, exhausted. We wanted to make sure the airport was secure for their withdrawal.”


I've answered it as best I can. Thanks for asking, again.
Four guys not equipped to secure an airport?

And what about the second question? You can use normal sized font if you want.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:35 PM   #213
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Back to the testimony:

"Earlier you talked about the ARB fixed blame on mid-level, or those career employees, not those at a senior level or the political appointees, is that correct?"

Nordstrom: That's correct. Ambassador Pickering asserted that it was made at the assistant secretary level and below. That's at variance with what I've personally seen.

Meadows: So you personally believe that the decisions are made at a much higher level. Mr. Hicks, I see you're nodding your head, is that correct?

Hicks: Yes, I believe so.

Meadows: So the ARB in looking to place blame in those career employees ignored a whole lot of the, what you would say, the decision makers in terms of assigning blame, correct?

Nordstrom: Absolutely.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:36 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
I've answered it as best I can. Thanks for asking, again.
So, you're asserting that the military overriding a diplomat about the best place for four pistol-armed military personnel on a non-combat assignment to be during a chaotic crisis where there were still a lot of unknowns about the security situation of the Tripoli embassy is a matter that requires Congressional hearings to investigate?
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:38 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Back to the testimony:

"Earlier you talked about the ARB fixed blame on mid-level, or those career employees, not those at a senior level or the political appointees, is that correct?"

Nordstrom: That's correct. Ambassador Pickering asserted that it was made at the assistant secretary level and below. That's at variance with what I've personally seen.

Meadows: So you personally believe that the decisions are made at a much higher level. Mr. Hicks, I see you're nodding your head, is that correct?

Hicks: Yes, I believe so.

Meadows: So the ARB in looking to place blame in those career employees ignored a whole lot of the, what you would say, the decision makers in terms of assigning blame, correct?

Nordstrom: Absolutely.
I see the word "believe" there a lot, and no actual evidence cited.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:38 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
You should let Nordstrom know how you feel.
And the family of dead American troops sent to Iraq based on lies? Nordstrom has every right to demand answers and accountability. When do we get accountability on the dead soldiers? What about their families? Where is the outrage over that?

I have no beef with Nordstrom. I have a beef with those who turn a blind eye to atrocity when its from their side but go ape **** crazy when the Obama administration gives some faulty information.

I see no moral consistency. I'm perfectly happy to condemn anyone who lied or covered up facts that led to the death of Americans. Are you?
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:39 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Are they scheduled to testify at the hearings? And why aren't any lawyers other than the partisan hacks who demanded that Scooter Libby get pardoned and that lied to Congress about Valerie Plame involved?
What does that have to do with Benghazi?

Quote:
If it was his call, he wouldn't have needed authorization, now would he? And considering that his group was just an advisory survey team armed with pistols, and Embassy Tripoli had just sent all of its own protection to Benghazi to assist there, what, exactly, is the issue with SOCAFRICA denying authorization for them to go on the 6:30 AM flight?
I admit missing those facts.

Quote:
That's your inference. Hicks' quote is elided in the transcript, so we don't know. I'm curious as to why it was edited, and what the rest of his reply was.

Aren't you?
Yes, me too, although 'why' isn't the top of my concern; the rest of his reply is.

Is the whitehouse paying you to carry their water on the demean, deny, and obfuscate action now ongoing? If not they should be.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:40 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Four guys not equipped to secure an airport?

And what about the second question? You can use normal sized font if you want.
Not secured to "secure an airport" WTF? Take it up with Hicks, friend.

What about the second question? Why did Hicks "not correct" the questioner? Hell if I know, bro.

What he said was the U.S. might have prevented the night’s second deadly attack if the military had been able to get a fighter jet to Benghazi as soon as possible.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:40 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Back to the testimony:

"Earlier you talked about the ARB fixed blame on mid-level, or those career employees, not those at a senior level or the political appointees, is that correct?"

Nordstrom: That's correct. Ambassador Pickering asserted that it was made at the assistant secretary level and below. That's at variance with what I've personally seen.

Meadows: So you personally believe that the decisions are made at a much higher level. Mr. Hicks, I see you're nodding your head, is that correct?

Hicks: Yes, I believe so.

Meadows: So the ARB in looking to place blame in those career employees ignored a whole lot of the, what you would say, the decision makers in terms of assigning blame, correct?

Nordstrom: Absolutely.
Shall we take this as an admission that you will never give a rational answer to the first question, nor any answer at all to the second?
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:41 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Let's not, and let's have you answer the questions, or admit that you can't/won't.
Good luck. There are a lot of questions being ignored. I still don't understand his response to my post. He refuses to clarify his position.

Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Exactly. It's the same nonsense as 9/11. A malevolent presidential administration was indifferent to Americans in harms way and they did everything they could to have them die... or something. I don't know but its got CT written all over it.

Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Just so we are clear here, using your analogy, we never should have had the 911 Commission hearings?

Interesting.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:42 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Not secured to "secure an airport" WTF? Take it up with Hicks, friend.
Armed with pistols in an unclear situation?

A diplomat expressing his wishes should override military considerations?

Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
What about the second question? Why did Hicks "not correct" the questioner? Hell if I know, bro.
You are free to speculate.

I think it's pretty obvious why he didn't.

Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
What he said was the U.S. might have prevented the night’s second deadly attack if the military had been able to get a fighter jet to Benghazi as soon as possible.
And they weren't able to, so what's Hick's deal do you think?

I think it's pretty obvious what his deal is.

Finally, I'd like to add a personal question which you are free to ignore and I won't press you on it should you chose not to answer:

Did you lose someone close to you at Benghazi? It seems you have a personal axe to grind here and are willing to cast rationality out the window for a chance for revenge. That's just my impression, and if you did lose someone, I will bow out of this discussion.

Last edited by uke2se; 8th May 2013 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:43 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Shall we take this as an admission that you will never give a rational answer to the first question, nor any answer at all to the second?
Sure, if you wish, because no one at all is going to see that huge font I used answering the question as best i could.

Thanks for asking about me though.

I can see you are truly concerned with the ONGOING TESTIMONY.

Thanks for posting.

Last edited by The Big Dog; 8th May 2013 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:44 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Not secured to "secure an airport" WTF? Take it up with Hicks, friend.
And what was his military expertise and authority that would override SOCAFRICA's assessment, again?

Quote:
What he said was the U.S. might have prevented the night’s second deadly attack if the military had been able to get a fighter jet to Benghazi as soon as possible.
And he knew exactly why that couldn't and didn't happen, because he was explicitly told. So why does he keep talking about it?
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Last edited by A'isha; 8th May 2013 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:45 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by AlBell View Post
Is the whitehouse paying you to carry their water on the demean, deny, and obfuscate action now ongoing? If not they should be.
Shill gambit - RationalWiki Very popular among conspiracy theorists. Amazing it pops up twice in this thread.

Quote:
The shill gambit is a type of ad hominem and poisoning the well wherein one party dismisses the other's arguments by proclaiming them to be on the payroll of some agency. It usually goes something like this:

Alice: There is absolutely no evidence that explosives were planted in the Twin Towers

Bob: Ah, I knew it, another Bush administration shill spreading disinfo! Go spew your lies somewhere else, shill!
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:46 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
I can see you are truly concerned with the ONGOING TESTIMONY.
Why should we be concerned with it, since he's merely repeating the exact same stuff he said and that we had already been discussing in this thread before today's hearing started?
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:46 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Sure, if you wish, because no one at all is going to see that huge font I used answering the question as best i could.

Thanks for asking about me though.

I can see you are truly concerned with the ONGOING TESTIMONY.

Thanks for posting.
I am concerned with Republicans trying to use the death of four Americans as a political weapon against the Obama administration. I am concerned about that because I think it's about as low as I've seen Republicans go - and that's really saying something.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:49 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I am concerned with Republicans trying to use the death of four Americans as a political weapon against the Obama administration. I am concerned about that because I think it's about as low as I've seen Republicans go - and that's really saying something.
The same Republicans who NEVER condemn the Bush admin for lying to get us into a war.

The Benghazi incident deserves investigation and if there was malfeasance, negligence and/or cover up it should be brought to the public's attention and people should be held accountable. Wrong is wrong. Now, if we could get the Republican on board with that concept.

Still, IMO, this is looking more and more like CT. I predict this thread will end up in that forum.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:50 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Again, you're conflating "there was no protest against the video outside the consulate which preceded the attack on the consulate" and "the video had nothing to do with the motivations for the attack on the consulate".
No I am not. That's what the people on the ground have said in no uncertain terms and have been saying it from the beginning.

The president is the one who conflated the video protests in Cairo and elsewhere with the attack in Benghazi a full week later. Not me.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:50 PM   #229
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More testimony:

Hicks, who now works as a State foreign affairs officer for government affairs, says has been "effectively demoted from deputy chief of mission to desk officer."
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:53 PM   #230
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Confirmation of the role of Ansar al Sharia, reference to the Twitter feed:

Before long, embassy workers learned that "the ambassador was in a hospital controlled by Ansar al-Sharia, the group whose twitter feed said it was leading the attack on the consulate." Hicks said.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:57 PM   #231
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Testimony regarding the Fighter Jets:

At about 10:45 or 11:00, we confer and I asked the defense attache who’d been talking with AFRICOM and with the Joint Staff: Is anything coming? Will they be sending us any help? Is there something out there? And he answered that the nearest help was in Aviano, and the nearest — where there were fighter planes. And he said that it would take two to three hours for them to get on site, but that there also were no tankers available for them to refuel. And I said, thank you very much, and we went on with our work.
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Old 8th May 2013, 01:59 PM   #232
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Questions regarding security in Tripoli, and discussion of the Special ops forces:

In Tripoli, we had — the defense attache had persuaded the Libyans to fly their C-130 to Benghazi. We wanted to airlift — we had — since we had consolidated at the annex, and the Libyan government had now provided us with external security around our facilities, we wanted to send further reinforcements to Benghazi. We determined that Lt. Colonel Gibson and his team of special forces troops should go. The people in Benghazi had been fighting all night. They were tired. They were exhausted. We wanted to make sure the airport was secure for their withdrawal.
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Old 8th May 2013, 02:03 PM   #233
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Just curious, but has the thread now become a "greatest hits" thread?
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Old 8th May 2013, 02:04 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
No I am not. That's what the people on the ground have said in no uncertain terms and have been saying it from the beginning.

The president is the one who conflated the video protests in Cairo and elsewhere with the attack in Benghazi a full week later. Not me.
Again, the fact that there were no protests about the video before the attack does not mean that the video was not at least partially motivating the attack. I cited several news articles where reporters went to Benghazi and talked to witnesses and participants in the consulate attack, and who reported that the video was mentioned during the attack by those attackers.

Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Confirmation of the role of Ansar al Sharia, reference to the Twitter feed:

Before long, embassy workers learned that "the ambassador was in a hospital controlled by Ansar al-Sharia, the group whose twitter feed said it was leading the attack on the consulate." Hicks said.
Have you even been reading what has been posted? That's not a "confirmation of the role of Ansar al Sharia" (something which doesn't even need "confirming" at this stage), but merely a reference to the email that went out reporting that Ansar al-Sharia purportedly claimed responsibility over twitter, but which did not actually come from their official twitter feed. The lack of that claim on their twitter feed and facebook page combined with their immediate denials in the days after the attack muddied the issue of their participation until the statements from witnesses and examination of video cleared things up.
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Old 8th May 2013, 02:05 PM   #235
A'isha
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
Just curious, but has the thread now become a "greatest hits" thread?
It certainly seems to be very environmentally-conscious, what with all the recycling of the same statements over and over.

Are we ever going to hear any of these supposed "new disclosures"?
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Old 8th May 2013, 02:10 PM   #236
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Interesting reference to the first talking points memo drafted and distributed on 9/14/12:

The CIA’s Office of Terrorism Analysis prepared the first draft of a response to the congressman, which was distributed internally for comment at 11:15 a.m. on Friday, September 14 This initial CIA draft included the assertion that the U.S. government “know[s] that Islamic extremists with ties to al Qaeda participated in the attack.” That draft also noted that press reports “linked the attack to Ansar al Sharia. The group has since released a statement that its leadership did not order the attacks, but did not deny that some of its members were involved.”

The references to Ansar al Sharia were deleted at the request of State Department spokesman Victoria Nuland
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Old 8th May 2013, 02:10 PM   #237
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What is the nature of the accusations? What's the point here? Is this like the never ending request by 9/11 truthers "let's get to the bottom of this" or is there a specific allegation of negligence, malfeasance or cover up. I apologize for not knowing. This is a sincere question and not an attempt at gotcha. I realize the truthers statement could be interpreted as provocative but that's not my intent. That's how I see this entire affair. But I'm happy to be disabused of that.
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Old 8th May 2013, 02:13 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Interesting reference to the first talking points memo drafted and distributed on 9/14/12:

The CIA’s Office of Terrorism Analysis prepared the first draft of a response to the congressman, which was distributed internally for comment at 11:15 a.m. on Friday, September 14 This initial CIA draft included the assertion that the U.S. government “know[s] that Islamic extremists with ties to al Qaeda participated in the attack.” That draft also noted that press reports “linked the attack to Ansar al Sharia. The group has since released a statement that its leadership did not order the attacks, but did not deny that some of its members were involved.”

The references to Ansar al Sharia were deleted at the request of State Department spokesman Victoria Nuland
Why is it interesting? This is what makes this such CT in my opinion. Vague "interesting" testimony. The apparent "squibs" evident during 9/11 are "interesting" to truthers, but so what? What is it supposed to demonstrate or is this a case of connect the disparate dots?
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Old 8th May 2013, 02:20 PM   #239
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I will be adding nothing interesting or valuable to this thread. Just these hideously snide observations from a far away land, after posting which I will relurk for another year or so.
  1. 46* US troops dead so far this year in Afghanistan, so that's a shame but these other dead dudes, in this other warzone?
  1. I read the first fifty posts of this thread last night. I didn't understand most of the technical details of the goings-on but got the gist and really enjoyed the use of bolding and size by various participants. "This can only get better!" I thought, betting myself a large slug of gin that there would be a MASSIVE reply to someone by the end of today.
CHEERS!

*This might be inaccurate but it's more than four. Sorry about the list numbering scheme. Math is hard!
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Old 8th May 2013, 02:25 PM   #240
The Big Dog
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"The hearing is closed, but the investigation is not over," said Rep. Darrell Issa, the chairman on the House Oversight Committee.

I am sure every is looking forward to the complete transcripts.

Thanks to everyone who posted.
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