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Tags Benghazi , Benghazi attack , terrorism incidents

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Old 8th May 2013, 02:26 PM   #241
A'isha
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Interesting reference to the first talking points memo drafted and distributed on 9/14/12:
You may find it "interesting", but it's also not new. This is straight out of the 43-page interim report released back in April by House Republicans.

Quote:
This initial CIA draft included the assertion that the U.S. government “know[s] that Islamic extremists with ties to al Qaeda participated in the attack.” That draft also noted that press reports “linked the attack to Ansar al Sharia. The group has since released a statement that its leadership did not order the attacks, but did not deny that some of its members were involved.”
Which is exactly what I've been saying.
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Old 8th May 2013, 02:29 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
"The hearing is closed, but the investigation is not over," said Rep. Darrell Issa, the chairman on the House Oversight Committee.
Naturally.

Quote:
I am sure every is looking forward to the complete transcripts.

Thanks to everyone who posted.
So where were the "new disclosures"?
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Old 8th May 2013, 02:32 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
"The hearing is closed, but the investigation is not over," said Rep. Darrell Issa, the chairman on the House Oversight Committee.

I am sure every is looking forward to the complete transcripts.

Thanks to everyone who posted.
Smoking gun?
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Old 8th May 2013, 02:59 PM   #244
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I've never figured out what the motivation would have been for Obama and State department people to lie about Bengazi. If you allow your ambassador and/or other members of your diplomatic staff to get killed, you screwed up. How is it less of a screw-up if they were killed by a spontaneous riot than by a coordinated attack? If anything, losing them to a spontaneous riot would be a worse failure of security than losing them to a coordinated attack.

Clearly the initial story about Bengazi was incorrect, but I can't think what the motivation would have been to lie. I think I have to apply Hanlon's Razor here.
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Old 8th May 2013, 03:11 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by jj View Post
There we have it, an admission that this waste of time is knowingly political in nature, and intended to disrupt government activities.
The bolded is exactly what the initial 'blame it on a utube clip' was to best insure Obama re-election and Hilary 2016 still being possible.

I take that's ok with you since you like both those things?

Finally, what do you ever see in media, involving politicians, that isn't knowingly political in nature? And at least some can imo be argued as intended to disrupt government activities.
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Old 8th May 2013, 05:36 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I've never figured out what the motivation would have been for Obama and State department people to lie about Bengazi. If you allow your ambassador and/or other members of your diplomatic staff to get killed, you screwed up. How is it less of a screw-up if they were killed by a spontaneous riot than by a coordinated attack? If anything, losing them to a spontaneous riot would be a worse failure of security than losing them to a coordinated attack.

Clearly the initial story about Bengazi was incorrect, but I can't think what the motivation would have been to lie. I think I have to apply Hanlon's Razor here.
A possible motive would be to spin it as the fault of a right wing loons video (which they can't control) instead of a left wing security failure (which they can control, at least to some extent). Seriously, on 9/11 of all days the closest security backup forces are in northern Italy and all they had were 9mm pistols? Who thought that that was a good idea? Especially since the protests in Cairo were an ongoing concern for at least 3 hours before the attack in Libya.
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Old 8th May 2013, 05:54 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by AlBell View Post
The bolded is exactly what the initial 'blame it on a utube clip' was to best insure Obama re-election and Hilary 2016 still being possible.

I take that's ok with you since you like both those things?
Disregarding the fact that Cheney had many more failures, W had many more failures, and even George HW had more failures than Obama, the obviously dishonest political attempt to somehow blame this on Hillary for purely political reasons is entirely evident. It's interesting how the myriad failures of the 'W' years in terms of security (You do recall 9/11, after all.) are excused away as fog of war, but now, the same people who repeatedly made that excuse for 'W' are demanding omniscience on Obama's part, and are actually focusing on Hillary, without evidence or cause, purely as an act of political deceit.

As to your presumption as to what I like, that fails on the previous rhetorical misconduct, assumption of facts not in evidence, suborned logic, straw men, and so on in the first sentence of your anti-freedom polemic. It, furthermore, assumes more facts not in evidence, and is a very thinly veiled personal attack.
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Old 8th May 2013, 05:56 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
A possible motive would be to spin it as the fault of a right wing loons video (which they can't control) instead of a left wing security failure (which they can control, at least to some extent).
Look, a conspiracy theory! And this after a right-wing congress cut money for defense of embassies.

Note, Sam, I don't necessarily think you're putting this forth, but now we have to wait to see who picks it up and runs with it.
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Old 8th May 2013, 05:58 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
Who thought that that was a good idea? Especially since the protests in Cairo were an ongoing concern for at least 3 hours before the attack in Libya.
This is an imporant and almost completely overlooked point. Benghazi was far from the only diplomatic compound with issues that night. How much security do you send and where?
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Old 8th May 2013, 06:03 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
A possible motive would be to spin it as the fault of a right wing loons video (which they can't control) instead of a left wing security failure (which they can control, at least to some extent).
Local witnesses in Benghazi said that the attackers stated it was because of the video, and there was also a severe security failure. Why do you think it had to be one or the other?

Quote:
Seriously, on 9/11 of all days the closest security backup forces are in northern Italy and all they had were 9mm pistols? Who thought that that was a good idea?
No one, since that's not true.

The closest fighters were in northern Italy. The closest backup security force was Charlie Company, 1st Battalion, 10th Special Forces Group, on a training mission in Croatia. This group is specifically for responding to important threats within their geographic area, and Obama ordered them to deploy at 2:39 AM, Benghazi time (20 minutes later, he also ordered the deployment of Delta Force from the US). Because ordering a deployment like that doesn't exactly work the way that it does in movies, it took time to assemble the groups, vehicles, transport aircraft, and mission plans. The two groups arrived at staging bases in Italy late the evening of the 12th of September, Benghazi time. In the meantime, a Marine team in Spain had also been ordered to deploy, and arrived directly in Tripoli at about the same time.

The men with 9mm pistols were a small four-man group assigned to survey security around the Middle East, and were not part of any "backup" group or either of the two above groups, and were already in Tripoli when the attacks happened.
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Old 8th May 2013, 06:03 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
This is an imporant and almost completely overlooked point. Benghazi was far from the only diplomatic compound with issues that night. How much security do you send and where?
Especially when blind-faith austerity worshipers have cut your security budget. Let's not forget that, either.
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Old 8th May 2013, 06:08 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by jj View Post
... off topic pap elided ...

As to your presumption as to what I like, that fails on the previous rhetorical misconduct, assumption of facts not in evidence, suborned logic, straw men, and so on in the first sentence of your anti-freedom polemic. It, furthermore, assumes more facts not in evidence, and is a very thinly veiled personal attack.
WHATever. I notice you don't deny it. Do you need to discuss with a Park Ranger first?
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Old 8th May 2013, 06:15 PM   #253
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http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/05...-misses/193960

One more data point. Remember who was SecDef under Bush 1, too.
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Old 8th May 2013, 06:22 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by jj View Post
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/05...-misses/193960

One more data point. Remember who was SecDef under Bush 1, too.
"Martosko quotes Cheney saying that the Obama administration's handling of the Benghazi attacks was "a failure of leadership" for not anticipating an attack on September 11"

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Old 8th May 2013, 06:34 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
This is an imporant and almost completely overlooked point. Benghazi was far from the only diplomatic compound with issues that night. How much security do you send and where?
According to Hicks, after the situation in Tripoli was secured, you decide to ask the special forces that were available to go assist security in Benghazi.

Unfortunately they were not permitted to go.

Hicks went though, I don't think he even had a side arm.
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Old 8th May 2013, 06:41 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
According to Hicks, after the situation in Tripoli was secured, you decide to ask the special forces that were available to go assist security in Benghazi.

Unfortunately they were not permitted to go.
Why do you consider Hicks more of an authority on security and military matters than, well, the actual military?
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Old 8th May 2013, 06:44 PM   #257
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Actually, the more I think about it, the more bizarre the story of the 9mm sidearms becomes. Forget the fact that they are alleged only to have pistols, what is really odd is that the Administration leaked that information.

"At least 6 hours after the attacks began, our Special Forces have armed themselves only with pistols. So watch out."

And the reason they released that info? For the sole reason to undercut the testimony at the hearings.

Remarkable, absolutely remarkable.
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Old 8th May 2013, 06:46 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Actually, the more I think about it, the more bizarre the story of the 9mm sidearms becomes. Forget the fact that they are alleged only to have pistols, what is really odd is that the Administration leaked that information.

"At least 6 hours after the attacks began, our Special Forces have armed themselves only with pistols. So watch out."

And the reason they released that info? For the sole reason to undercut the testimony at the hearings.

Remarkable, absolutely remarkable.
Yeeessss... everything is a conspiracy...
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Old 8th May 2013, 06:47 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
"At least 6 hours after the attacks began, our Special Forces have armed themselves only with pistols. So watch out."

And the reason they released that info? For the sole reason to undercut the testimony at the hearings.
No, it's because they weren't on a Special Forces mission. They were on a security survey and advisory tour, something for which they did not need all their combat deployment gear.

The actual people who were deployed were properly armed. Which is why those people were deployed, and these four guys were not.

EDIT: And it wasn't the Administration, but military officials themselves.
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Old 8th May 2013, 06:55 PM   #260
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Is there a reasonably coherent timeline (maybe with notes) of what happened on the net somewhere? I'm confused by who did what, when. If there's one at a trusted source, I'd love to see it.

And a second question. What ever happened to the allegations that the embassy grounds were also home to a "black site" operation by the CIA that shaped the response to the attack. Was that complete crap?
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Old 8th May 2013, 07:00 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Is there a reasonably coherent timeline (maybe with notes) of what happened on the net somewhere? I'm confused by who did what, when. If there's one at a trusted source, I'd love to see it.

And a second question. What ever happened to the allegations that the embassy grounds were also home to a "black site" operation by the CIA that shaped the response to the attack. Was that complete crap?
My suggestion is that you read Hick's opening statement today. It is incredibly moving and very detailed.

The CIA annex was located about a Kilometer away from the consulate grounds. The survivors from the Consulate were moved there, and Ansar al Sharia militia followed them there with heavy machine guns and mortars.
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Old 8th May 2013, 07:07 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Is there a reasonably coherent timeline (maybe with notes) of what happened on the net somewhere? I'm confused by who did what, when. If there's one at a trusted source, I'd love to see it.
The State Department's ARB Report has a detailed writeup of who did what starting on page 18, and there's also a CIA timeline and a Pentagon timeline of events.

My suggestion is that you ignore anything 16.5 says.
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Old 8th May 2013, 07:52 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
The State Department's ARB Report has a detailed writeup of who did what starting on page 18, and there's also a CIA timeline and a Pentagon timeline of events.

My suggestion is that you ignore anything 16.5 says.
Yeah, don't read today's testimony. Here is the opening testimony that ANT doesn't want you to read:

http:Transcript and video

That is what ANT wants you not to do.

And he has been extremely reasonable all day.

A perfect little Administration mouthpiece.

The part I liked best? When he questioned Hick's situational knowledge.

Remember, 16.5 is the bad guy. Hicks? Don't read his testimony.
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Old 8th May 2013, 08:48 PM   #264
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Daily show nailed it tonight. The video hasn't been released as far as I can tell. I'll post it as soon as it's available.

In the meantime: What the promoters of this faux outrage don't want you to know.

The Truth About Attacks on Our Diplomats

Originally Posted by wiki
The UMd. database lists 64 attacks on American diplomatic targets during the George W. Bush administration, including car bombs at the US embassy in Yemen and armed attackers assaulting a US consulate in Saudi Arabia.
No outrage about those. People died but hey, it was Bush not Obama.
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Old 8th May 2013, 08:50 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Yeah, don't read today's testimony. Here is the opening testimony that ANT doesn't want you to read:

http:Transcript and video
Was there a smoking gun? What is your claim that the Obama administration did wrong? I've said over and over, if someone lied, or if there was a conspiracy then I want to know about it and I want the proof and I would like people to be held accountable. What is your evidence?
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Old 8th May 2013, 08:52 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
EDIT: And it wasn't the Administration, but military officials themselves.
Not a valid reason not to impeach Obama.
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Old 8th May 2013, 08:54 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Was there a smoking gun? What is your claim that the Obama administration did wrong? I've said over and over, if someone lied, or if there was a conspiracy then I want to know about it and I want the proof and I would like people to be held accountable. What is your evidence?
They lied about the attack spontaneously arising out of a anti-video protest.

C'mon, keep up Obama fan.

Cool tu quoque in the last post, though!
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Old 8th May 2013, 08:58 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
They lied about the attack spontaneously arising out of a anti-video protest.

C'mon, keep up Obama fan.

Cool tu quoque in the last post, though!
Evidence they lied and were not simply mistaken?
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:01 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Was there a smoking gun? What is your claim that the Obama administration did wrong? I've said over and over, if someone lied, or if there was a conspiracy then I want to know about it and I want the proof and I would like people to be held accountable. What is your evidence?
"President Magarief was insulted in front of his own people, in front of the world. His credibility was reduced. His ability to govern was [damaged]. He was angry... He was still steamed about the talk shows two weeks later. I definitely believe it negatively affected our ability to get the FBI team quickly to Benghazi."
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:03 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Evidence they lied and were not simply mistaken?
The fact that the Administration deleted the reference to Al Quaeda and Ansar al Sharia in the 9/14 talking point memo, as already mentioned in this thread.
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:04 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
The fact that the Administration deleted the reference to Al Quaeda and Ansar al Sharia in the 9/14 talking point memo, as already mentioned in this thread.
So you have nothing of any substance then.
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:06 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
They lied about the attack spontaneously arising out of a anti-video protest.
To what end?

Quote:
Cool tu quoque in the last post, though!
A tu quoque is when you try and justify an action with another. I have said over and over that if there was lying then I would want someone to be held accountable. I have not tried to justify anything. I have demonstrated that outrage is fake. There was no outrage about diplomatic deaths under Bush.
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:06 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
So you have nothing of any substance then.
Please explain how this:

The fact that the Administration deleted the reference to Al Quaeda and Ansar al Sharia in the 9/14 talking point memo, as already mentioned in this thread.

Is nothing of substance. C'mon, I'm fascinated by your response.
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:08 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
"President Magarief was insulted in front of his own people, in front of the world. His credibility was reduced. His ability to govern was [damaged]. He was angry... He was still steamed about the talk shows two weeks later. I definitely believe it negatively affected our ability to get the FBI team quickly to Benghazi."
This isn't evidence of anything except President Magarief's emotions. I'll ask again, do you have any evidence that will stop fox news from saying "if" the president lied (on the Daily Show tonight Stewart documents all of the times FOX has said "if" there was wrong doing. Where is the evidence?
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:08 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
A tu quoque is when you try and justify an action with another. I have said over and over that if there was lying then I would want someone to be held accountable. I have not tried to justify anything. I have demonstrated that outrage is fake. There was no outrage about diplomatic deaths under Bush.
Wrong. Look up tu quoque, it is fallacy. You have used it a dozen times in this thread.
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:10 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Please explain how this:

The fact that the Administration deleted the reference to Al Quaeda and Ansar al Sharia in the 9/14 talking point memo, as already mentioned in this thread.

Is nothing of substance. C'mon, I'm fascinated by your response.
No, that's not proof that Obama lied. That's your claim. Do you have proof that Obama conspired to mislead the American people? Do you even have proof that he lied?
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:11 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
This isn't evidence of anything except President Magarief's emotions. I'll ask again, do you have any evidence that will stop fox news from saying "if" the president lied (on the Daily Show tonight Stewart documents all of the times FOX has said "if" there was wrong doing. Where is the evidence?
Re-read Hick's testimony today.

If you have something other than "the Daily Show" to contradict that assessment (and arguments from incredulity) bring it.

When did the FBI get to Benghazi?
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:13 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Wrong. Look up tu quoque, it is fallacy. You have used it a dozen times in this thread.
I've looked it up and posted the definition dozens of times.

Quote:
Tu Quoque

Translation: "You, also" or "You're another", Latin Type:

I don't claim that two wrongs make a right. I don't claim that anything Bush did excuses Obama. I do claim that the outrage is demonstrably fake. That's my claim and the proof of that is that there was no outrage before.

YOU look it up.
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:14 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
No, that's not proof that Obama lied. That's your claim. Do you have proof that Obama conspired to mislead the American people? Do you even have proof that he lied?
Cool. Thanks for your opinion.

The Administrations claims that the attack spontnelously arose out of n anti-video protest, including Obama's on Letterman and others were false.

That is a fact.

Do you dispute that? Do you dispute that the fact that the Administration deleted the reference to Al Quaeda and Ansar al Sharia in the 9/14 talking point memo, as already mentioned in this thread?

Yes or No?
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:16 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Re-read Hick's testimony today.
I did. I see no smoking gun. It's your claim. Why can't you support it with evidence. Telling others to go read something ISN'T evidence of your claim. Do you have evidence?

Quote:
If you have something other than "the Daily Show" to contradict that assessment (and arguments from incredulity) bring it.
The Daily Show does more than an adequate job of demonstrating how there is no there there.

Quote:
When did the FBI get to Benghazi?
ANTPogo provided a time line. Look it up. Stop asking questions like a typical conspiracy theorist and provide the evidence.
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