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Old 26th July 2016, 11:25 AM   #41
BStrong
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
2 people take 5 hostages, kill one of them and are then in turn killed themselves by police? Yes I can imagine this happens fairly regularly "under the radar" in the same sense that, say, bank robberies happen fairly regularly "under the radar" with about the same number of people taking place and/or getting killed.
Very rare in the criminal world, sop in the terrorist world.
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Old 26th July 2016, 11:29 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Question is .. is there a solution to this ? I mean if we stop people from entering the country, if we can't even deport them, and if we can't jail them for life based on what they might do ..
That's the problem. Persuction of Muslims just because they are Muslims and "Might be radicals" will just end up making a lot more radicals...and no way can you keep them all out.
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Old 26th July 2016, 11:31 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Very rare in the criminal world, sop in the terrorist world.
Hostage taking by bank robbers happens a lot more in the movies and on TV then it ever did in real life. One reason: taking a hostage is kidnapping,and kidnapping will get you a lot more hard time then just bank robbery. Religious wackjobs who are prepared to die for their God don't have that inhibition.
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Old 26th July 2016, 11:53 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
No... just pointing out that your sentence "insane and bigoted people who feel inclined to commit horrors of this kind" should probably read "insane and bigoted Muslims who feel inclined to commit horrors of this kind" because it ain't Methodists, however troubled, who read about ISIS atrocities and say 'hey, I'd like to get in on that'.

Note: That's very different to simply attributing it to Islam.
That's right. ISIS seeks the support of insane and bigoted Muslims. But in murdering priests, or in endorsing and ratifying such an atrocity, it doesn't receive the support of sane and non-bigoted Muslims.

And if I place responsibility for this on ISIS, and you agree, and if you don't attribute this crime indiscriminately to adherents of Islam, as I do not; what on Earth did you find to comment on in my post?
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Old 26th July 2016, 11:59 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's right. ISIS seeks the support of insane and bigoted Muslims. But in murdering priests, or in endorsing and ratifying such an atrocity, it doesn't receive the support of sane and non-bigoted Muslims.

And if I place responsibility for this on ISIS, and you agree, and if you don't attribute this crime indiscriminately to adherents of Islam, as I do not; what on Earth did you find to comment on in my post?
You realize that this coyness is what vast swathes of the public find infuriating, right?

The list of subsets should have read:
Bigoted
insane
Muslim

But you couldn't bring yourself to acknowledge the third one.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:05 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
You realize that this coyness is what vast swathes of the public find infuriating, right?

The list of subsets should have read:
Bigoted
insane
Muslim

But you couldn't bring yourself to acknowledge the third one.
I suppose it depends on whether you think the "bigoted and insane" part matters less than the "Muslim" part.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:07 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
You realize that this coyness is what vast swathes of the public find infuriating, right?

The list of subsets should have read:
Bigoted
insane
Muslim

But you couldn't bring yourself to acknowledge the third one.
What are you on about? Read your own words.
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
That's very different to simply attributing it to Islam.
So are you attributing it to Islam as such or not? Who's being coy and infuriating now? Metacristi will be infuriated at your laxity, I'm sure.

ETA Islam produced this too.
The nationwide French Council of the Muslim Faith (Conseil français du culte musulman or CFCM) denounced the attack as a “terrifying and horrifying act” and expressing its solidarity with “all Catholics of France”.

“[We call on] all leaders of different faiths to meet, exchange and fight against this hateful speech,” the CFCM said.

Their calls were backed by the Muslim group CRCM (Conseil régional du culte musulmam), which announced that it would hold a minute of silence for the victims on Thursday.

Meanwhile, the imam of the mosque in the northern French town where a church was attacked Tuesday said he was "stunned" by the murder of the local priest, who he described as a friend.

"I don't understand, all of our prayers go to his family and the Catholic community," said Mohammed Karabila.

Last edited by Craig B; 26th July 2016 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:12 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What are you on about? Read your own words. So are you attributing it to Islam as such or not? Who's being coy and infuriating now? Metacristi will be infuriated at your laxity, I'm sure.
I attribute it to a fanatical and violent interpretation of Islam,not shared by most Muslims. False Dichotomy,guy.
BUt you inability to admit that Islam does have a major problem with it's fanatical wing is getting to be quite amusing...and is not selling beyond your political circle.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:14 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's right. ISIS seeks the support of insane and bigoted Muslims. But in murdering priests, or in endorsing and ratifying such an atrocity, it doesn't receive the support of sane and non-bigoted Muslims.

And if I place responsibility for this on ISIS, and you agree, and if you don't attribute this crime indiscriminately to adherents of Islam, as I do not; what on Earth did you find to comment on in my post?
This attack would seem to me to directly target Western hearts and minds, in order to make them angry, retaliate against Muslims, and swell the ranks of ISIS. It probably wasn't aimed at Muslim support directly, but rather follows the classical MO of terrorism.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:15 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What are you on about? Read your own words. So are you attributing it to Islam as such or not? Who's being coy and infuriating now? Metacristi will be infuriated at your laxity, I'm sure.
It's not "simply attributing it to Islam" to point out that islam is part of the picture.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:16 PM   #51
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I am being driven crazy that so many people here seem unable to have a position other then "ISLAM IS EVIL!" or Those who not want to admit..for PC reasons....that Islam has a serious problem with it's Extremist Wing. Attributing the motives of these attacks to just about anything but Extreme Islamic Ideology is getting to be pretty silly.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:17 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I attribute it to a fanatical and violent interpretation of Islam,not shared by most Muslims. False Dichotomy,guy.
BUt you inability to admit that Islam does have a major problem with it's fanatical wing is getting to be quite amusing...and is not selling beyond your political circle.
This.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:17 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
This attack would seem to me to directly target Western hearts and minds, in order to make them angry, retaliate against Muslims, and swell the ranks of ISIS. It probably wasn't aimed at Muslim support directly, but rather follows the classical MO of terrorism.
What scares me is that we will see attacks like this in the US with the main motive of electing Trump,which would be the biggest victory imaginable for ISIS and Al Qaeda.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:21 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I attribute it to a fanatical and violent interpretation of Islam,not shared by most Muslims.
Not shared by most, but a significant portion of world Muslims support death for apostasy and punishments for homosexuality.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:22 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What scares me is that we will see attacks like this in the US with the main motive of electing Trump,which would be the biggest victory imaginable for ISIS and Al Qaeda.
Yes, and ISIS knows it.

I think both the right and the left have good points in the political sphere, but the extremes on both sides I want to avoid, and this sort of repeated tragedy can only help one extreme.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:23 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am being driven crazy that so many people here seem unable to have a position other then "ISLAM IS EVIL!" or Those who not want to admit..for PC reasons....that Islam has a serious problem with it's Extremist Wing. Attributing the motives of these attacks to just about anything but Extreme Islamic Ideology is getting to be pretty silly.
Eh? I was told the proper descriptions were

Bigoted
insane
Muslim

You're now saying that should be

Bigoted
insane
Extreme Islamic Ideology.

Fine. No problem.

So you can stop being driven crazy now; there was never any need to be.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:25 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
2 people take 5 hostages, kill one of them and are then in turn killed themselves by police? Yes I can imagine this happens fairly regularly "under the radar" in the same sense that, say, bank robberies happen fairly regularly "under the radar" with about the same number of people taking place and/or getting killed.
We are speaking of france countryside here. Heck even France. We are not speaking on "it is again Friday" in the US. Such situation are rare in france and in western europe in general.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:27 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I attribute it to a fanatical and violent interpretation of Islam,not shared by most Muslims. False Dichotomy,guy.
BUt you inability to admit that Islam does have a major problem with it's fanatical wing is getting to be quite amusing...and is not selling beyond your political circle.
I think you're attributing more of a false dichotomy to him than he really believes. I don't think he'd disagree with the idea that ISIS follows a fanatical and violent interpretation of Islam, which is not shared by most Muslims but which does represent a fanatical wing of Islam that is a major problem. I certainly don't.

It looks to me like he's reacting to the people here who, as you say, seem unable to have a position other then "ISLAM IS EVIL!"

Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
This attack would seem to me to directly target Western hearts and minds, in order to make them angry, retaliate against Muslims, and swell the ranks of ISIS. It probably wasn't aimed at Muslim support directly, but rather follows the classical MO of terrorism.
ISIS certainly wants a full-on confrontation with the West (it's part of their apocalyptic beliefs) and is trying to cause it to happen.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:32 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
We are speaking of france countryside here. Heck even France. We are not speaking on "it is again Friday" in the US. Such situation are rare in france and in western europe in general.
A cleric being murdered in Church in France during a service, by religious opponents, has been a rarity since the Wars of Religion in the seventeenth century, I imagine.

What a hideous return to the worst period of religious history ISIS is trying to bring about.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:33 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What scares me is that we will see attacks like this in the US with the main motive of electing Trump,which would be the biggest victory imaginable for ISIS and Al Qaeda.
ISIS' endgame is an apocalyptic confrontation between the devout and the infidel. I'm increasingly of the opinion that we should partner with them to bring that about as soon as possible. If electing Trump gets us there, what's not to like?
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:38 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
ISIS' endgame is an apocalyptic confrontation between the devout and the infidel. I'm increasingly of the opinion that we should partner with them to bring that about as soon as possible. If electing Trump gets us there, what's not to like?
This is not to like: you may be "electing the Last Trump", which may bring about an "apocalyptic confrontation" too radical for most tastes.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:40 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
ISIS' endgame is an apocalyptic confrontation between the devout and the infidel. I'm increasingly of the opinion that we should partner with them to bring that about as soon as possible. If electing Trump gets us there, what's not to like?
The collateral damage.
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:50 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This is not to like: you may be "electing the Last Trump", which may bring about an "apocalyptic confrontation" too radical for most tastes.
LOL. I doubt it. I think even ISIS wouldn't come to much harm from a Trump presidency, let alone the world at large.

If Hillary promised to give ISIS the final military confrontation they desire, in her first term, would that be a positive or a negative of her candidacy, in your view?
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Old 26th July 2016, 12:50 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THat is the kind of solution that sounds great in a college seminar, but has real problems working in the real world.
Problem is people are not to going to turn the other cheek to these attacks while your long term solution works.
The first two are actually immediately actionable. In my view, current easy access by otherwise non-radical youth in the West to ISIS and other materials online needs to stop. Most likely this cannot be done 100%, and has legal impediments, but is a first area to work on. Personally, I'd like to see teams of hackers take down such sites repeatedly, local ISPs getting pressured or run off by ICANN or denial of IP ranges or some such, and so on. If needed, begin to pressure a country's entire telecommunications system via military means.

Depending on local Constitutional law, ban hate speech. Even in the US, there are such things as fighting words. Some religious statements could be legitimately regarded as such. It is my considered opinion that, as harsh as this might sound, a great deal of what is taught in Islam could be considered such if uttered in sermon, as well as other parts considered an incitement to riot or criminal conspiracy. Use these concepts as far as possible within the law to shut down web sites and social media discourse.

Finally, understand that all military action has a price in the form of oaths taken while possessed of moral outrage.

The broadest covering narrative of them all is that there are times and places it is OK to kill, because reasons. Capital punishment, in this sense, is an enabler of a vicious worldview, regardless of any particular case merits. Abolish it now.

But in general, what might give you the impression that the problem is short term?
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Old 26th July 2016, 01:13 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
This attack would seem to me to directly target Western hearts and minds, in order to make them angry, retaliate against Muslims, and swell the ranks of ISIS.
Couldn't it also be that the motive was simply to kill infidels with no particular consideration for what they might feel about it?
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Old 26th July 2016, 01:17 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think it is a surprise. The recent spate of attacks such as these is aberrant and requires some sort of explanation.
The common explanation is that Europe recently let in about a million of so migrants, some of whom were ISIS supporters, either infilitrated or decided they prefer the paradise later, and they're now doing the trouble.

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Old 26th July 2016, 01:21 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by mbp View Post
Couldn't it also be that the motive was simply to kill infidels with no particular consideration for what they might feel about it?
That's possible, but unlikely, given that they didn't even attempt a mass-casualty spectacular event, but instead killed only the priest, after giving a "sermon"*, and also took hostages.


*According to one of the hostages.
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Old 26th July 2016, 01:34 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What scares me is that we will see attacks like this in the US with the main motive of electing Trump,which would be the biggest victory imaginable for ISIS and Al Qaeda.
Think ISIS are more interested in the other side of the world at the mo'

And it isn't like you don't have enough mass killings without them
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Old 26th July 2016, 02:14 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think it is a surprise. The recent spate of attacks such as these is aberrant and requires some sort of explanation.
Ok.
Islam.
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Old 26th July 2016, 02:33 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
That's possible, but unlikely, given that they didn't even attempt a mass-casualty spectacular event, but instead killed only the priest, after giving a "sermon"*, and also took hostages.
I agree that indicates they were probably putting on a performance of some kind. But it's less clear to me who their intended audience was. It might be the infidels but it could also be their fellow believers or even their god.
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Old 26th July 2016, 02:55 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So you're saying we will probably never know their motivation?
It is a little puzzling in that the term Daesh is a disparaging way of referring to IS.
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Old 26th July 2016, 02:58 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Ok.
Islam.
Islam is in Europe for decades, and situation didn't change much in the last year. So it's not just 'Islam' .. thought it might be 'Islam, given enough time' ..
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Old 26th July 2016, 02:58 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The common explanation is that Europe recently let in about a million of so migrants, some of whom were ISIS supporters, either infilitrated or decided they prefer the paradise later, and they're now doing the trouble.

McHrozni
Except the majority of recent have been either born there or are long term citizens

And they let in refugees
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Old 26th July 2016, 03:29 PM   #74
A'isha
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
It is a little puzzling in that the term Daesh is a disparaging way of referring to IS.
They hate it so much that they threatened to cut the tongues out of anyone that uses it.
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Old 26th July 2016, 03:40 PM   #75
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Hm .. just read interesting article in local newspaper (Czech only, sry), and it was an interview with a psychiatrist. And he says that in cases like this, you can't blame religion or background alone. It's always combination of factors. Religion (or background in general) which at least justifies violence, frustration from unsuccessful life, some sort of mental instability, and also media impulse. It's a long chain, and it's built through the life. He thinks the current wave certainly has a aspects of copycat suicide, which actually has a name .. Werther effect .. but that just triggers person on the edge.
Islam for sure play huge role .. but luckily by default it won't push people to limits. More is needed, and even so, so far really only few labile individuals succumb. Thing is, we can't do much with Islam in general, and we can't do much with psychical lability or people's frustration. Of course we could bribe every possible violent person, to lower his life frustration, but that too would be amoral, and would only promote violent behavior.

We can do something with the media though. But then .. I can imagine not reporting on suicide cases to stop suicide wave .. but not reporting on terrorism would defy purpose of news, especially when it's hot political topic. But then terrorism as a meme lives in media .. it simply would not work in non-connected society.

Not that it gives solution, but I was happy to read something not simplistic as 'ban Islam' for a change ..
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Old 26th July 2016, 04:07 PM   #76
Craig B
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Originally Posted by mbp View Post
Couldn't it also be that the motive was simply to kill infidels with no particular consideration for what they might feel about it?
You really think they cut the throat of a priest, during a service, took congregants hostage and were then killed by the security forces, as they presumably knew they must be - all for the sake of killing a single aged "infidel" of little renown outside his home village? And this without any intent of psychological manipulation?

If that is how they intend to wage war, they are doomed not merely to defeat, but to eternal mockery and humiliation.

No, if this atrocity had any rational purpose, it was intended to create or exacerbate hostility between non-Muslim and Muslim French citizens. This is ISIS' evident goal.
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Old 26th July 2016, 04:20 PM   #77
Corsair 115
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Question is .. is there a solution to this ?

There are several potential solutions. The trouble is that most of them are politically and/or morally unpalatable.
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Old 26th July 2016, 04:34 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by mbp View Post
I agree that indicates they were probably putting on a performance of some kind. But it's less clear to me who their intended audience was. It might be the infidels but it could also be their fellow believers or even their god.
I'd imagine more will be forthcoming in the following few days.

Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
It is a little puzzling in that the term Daesh is a disparaging way of referring to IS.
Perhaps they were using it ironically, sort of like the "Old Contemptibles".
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Old 26th July 2016, 05:09 PM   #79
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Damn Trump voting for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and ordering sanctions and drone assassinations. Yup, he's the problem.
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Old 26th July 2016, 05:12 PM   #80
trustbutverify
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You really think they cut the throat of a priest, during a service, took congregants hostage and were then killed by the security forces, as they presumably knew they must be - all for the sake of killing a single aged "infidel" of little renown outside his home village? And this without any intent of psychological manipulation?

If that is how they intend to wage war, they are doomed not merely to defeat, but to eternal mockery and humiliation.

No, if this atrocity had any rational purpose, it was intended to create or exacerbate hostility between non-Muslim and Muslim French citizens. This is ISIS' evident goal.
Another "rational" purpose would be to use shocking attacks against enemy civilians to undermine support for military operations directed at ISIS targets, and to generally make behaviors they find counterproductive as savagely expensive as possible. How effective this approach will turn out to be remains to be seen.
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