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Old 27th July 2016, 01:23 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You disagree. I get it. The bitchy last sentence amuses me
Now we're both amused. Or bemused.
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Old 27th July 2016, 01:28 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
They are from birth to death in different cultures.

The german of turk origin with their family and friends and neighbors are vastly different in culture than the french of algerian origin with friends and neighbors. As people tend to aggregate and congregate within their culture, there will be an influence from the culture of origin and the local culture.

That is why that "EU muslim" is utterly misleading.
What then are Muslim citizens of EU countries, and how should they be treated? Like Jews before they were emancipated in the USA and then France in the late eighteenth century, or like these Catholics in Britain before Catholic Emancipation?
As to papists, what has been said of the Protestant dissenters would hold equally strong for a general toleration of them; provided their separation was founded only upon difference of opinion in religion, and their principles did not also extend to a subversion of the civil government. If once they could be brought to renounce the supremacy of the pope, they might quietly enjoy their seven sacraments, their purgatory, and auricular confession; their worship of relics and images; nay even their transubstantiation. But while they acknowledge a foreign power, superior to the sovereignty of the kingdom, they cannot complain if the laws of that kingdom will not treat them upon the footing of good subjects.
That's certainly what ISIS, that implacable enemy of the Enlightenment, is trying to achieve.
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Old 27th July 2016, 01:38 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
They are from birth to death in different cultures.

The german of turk origin with their family and friends and neighbors are vastly different in culture than the french of algerian origin with friends and neighbors. As people tend to aggregate and congregate within their culture, there will be an influence from the culture of origin and the local culture.

That is why that "EU muslim" is utterly misleading.
Brazil has a larger population of Arabs than France does, yet it doesn't suffer from terrorist attacks (a foiled plot to bomb Olympics aside). A typical Islamic apologist will jump with joy, showing it's Europe that's at fault.
Realistically though, the difference is probably mostly due to the fact a vast majority of those Arabs are Christians. Muslims number in tens of thousands a most.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...razil#Religion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Brazilians

It could be that "EU Muslim" is misleading, but "EU Arab" is far, far worse. Arab culture is an aggravating factor which worsens the problems initially caused by Islam, but it doesn't appear to increase the risk of terrorism or other unacceptable behavior in the absence of Islam.

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Old 27th July 2016, 01:48 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
There are several potential solutions. The trouble is that most of them are politically and/or morally unpalatable.
That's a more pithy version of my post.
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Old 27th July 2016, 01:50 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
How strange. Apparently this means that Muslims are more decent human beigns than anybody else.
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Old 27th July 2016, 01:52 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
The question is not what muslim believe. The question is what french muslim believe versus the rest of the french population.
With the migrant crisis, that first question might not be irrelevant.
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Old 27th July 2016, 02:27 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
... A typical Islamic apologist will jump with joy, showing it's Europe that's at fault.
Tony Blair must be unchallenged World Champion Islamic Apologist then, because he believes that not merely Europe, but himself personally, is to blame. He must be jumping with joy, but if so, he has been successful in concealing his mirthfulness.
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
"EU Arab" is far, far worse. Arab culture is an aggravating factor which worsens the problems initially caused by Islam, but it doesn't appear to increase the risk of terrorism or other unacceptable behavior in the absence of Islam.
Aye. We need racial as well as religious scapegoats, don't we?
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Old 27th July 2016, 02:59 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Aye. We need racial as well as religious scapegoats, don't we?
You probably need to check what the term "scapegoat" means. It's probably something other than what you think it is.

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Old 27th July 2016, 03:09 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So we've given up attributing any strategy to the Islamist extremists. The purpose of slaughtering a priest in his own church during a service, at the inevitable cost of the lives of the two perpetrators, was simply to kill a single "infidel". You believe that?
Of course it was not.

They hope to generate enough anger to provoke civil troubles, e.g. French people (most probably far right wingers) to attack Muslims or mosques.

They already succeeded in having French right wing politicians, including former president Sarkozy, advocating measures which would restrict human rights or even change the French constitution.

They also do not want the Western powers to soften their military action in Syria and Iraq. On the contrary they hope that they will go to a ground war. In their mythology hey believe that they will beat the Romans (viewed as a symbol of the West) in a great battle in Dabiq (Syria). The fact that one of their propaganda online magazines is named Dabiq is not a coincidence.
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Old 27th July 2016, 03:24 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Tony Blair must be unchallenged World Champion Islamic Apologist then, because he believes that not merely Europe, but himself personally, is to blame. He must be jumping with joy, but if so, he has been successful in concealing his mirthfulness.
To allude to my earlier post, scapegoating is what you and people like you do to European and American leaders in regards to Islamic extremism and terrorism.

There is an element of truth in that the invasion of Iraq led to the chain of events that caused the rise of ISIS, true. If that didn't happen, ISIS would likely arise elsewhere and call itself differently.

A rise of a group like ISIS was, however, a certainty. ISIS is not a problem, it's a symptom of a much larger problem of the rise of fundamentalist Islamists in the Arab world and beyond. It's also a symptom of stern refusal of a large percentage of Islamic minorities in the West to accept Western cultural norms. The element of truth Tony Blair mentions is that the invasion of Iraq likely made (a group like) ISIS to rise sooner than it otherwise would have, but that's the extent of his guilt.

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Old 27th July 2016, 03:27 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
To allude to my earlier post, scapegoating is what you and people like you do to European and American leaders in regards to Islamic extremism and terrorism.

There is an element of truth in that the invasion of Iraq led to the chain of events that caused the rise of ISIS, true. If that didn't happen, ISIS would likely arise elsewhere and call itself differently.

A rise of a group like ISIS was, however, a certainty. ISIS is not a problem, it's a symptom of a much larger problem of the rise of fundamentalist Islamists in the Arab world and beyond. It's also a symptom of stern refusal of a large percentage of Islamic minorities in the West to accept Western cultural norms. The element of truth Tony Blair mentions is that the invasion of Iraq likely made (a group like) ISIS to rise sooner than it otherwise would have, but that's the extent of his guilt.

McHrozni
That's hearsay
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Old 27th July 2016, 03:35 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
That's hearsay
What is? That ISIS would arise elsewhere otherwise?

Have you ever heard of Boko Haram? Same thing, but in a different part of world and without an excuse of a Western intervention.

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Old 27th July 2016, 03:38 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
What is? That ISIS would arise elsewhere otherwise?

Have you ever heard of Boko Haram? Same thing, but in a different part of world and without an excuse of a Western intervention.

McHrozni
ISIS are arguably a direct result of an illegal war.

Their methods are sick as.

But the coalition brought it on themselves
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Old 27th July 2016, 03:41 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
ISIS are arguably a direct result of an illegal war.

Their methods are sick as.

But the coalition brought it on themselves
Neither France nor Germany were not a part of that coalition. Both were trying hard to stop the war from happening. It's slightly disingenuous for you to claim they "brought it on themselves".

That notion aside, how do you explain Boko Haram? That group is essentially identical to ISIS in methodology, justifications and goals, and swore loyalty to ISIS. If ISIS is a product of an illegal war and nothing else, how did Boko Haram arose?

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Old 27th July 2016, 03:45 AM   #135
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They aren't ISIS
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Old 27th July 2016, 03:50 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You probably need to check what the term "scapegoat" means. It's probably something other than what you think it is.

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Here it is.
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Old 27th July 2016, 03:51 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
There are several potential solutions. The trouble is that most of them are politically and/or morally unpalatable.
Ok, let me rephrase the question .. WHAT are the potential solutions ?
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Old 27th July 2016, 03:53 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
That's hearsay
It's not even hearsay. It's a statement sustained only by the requirements of the speaker's ideology.
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Old 27th July 2016, 03:55 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
They aren't ISIS
So in other words, you agree with me on this:

There is an element of truth in that the invasion of Iraq led to the chain of events that caused the rise of ISIS, true. If that didn't happen, ISIS would likely arise elsewhere and call itself differently.

I fail to see how that rest would significantly differ from what we see now.

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Old 27th July 2016, 04:00 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
So in other words, you agree with me on this:

There is an element of truth in that the invasion of Iraq led to the chain of events that caused the rise of ISIS, true. If that didn't happen, ISIS would likely arise elsewhere and call itself differently.

I fail to see how that rest would significantly differ from what we see now.

McHrozni
No. Your second conclusion is hearsay.

What evidence do you have it would have started anyway?
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Old 27th July 2016, 04:02 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Neither France nor Germany were not a part of that coalition. Both were trying hard to stop the war from happening. It's slightly disingenuous for you to claim they "brought it on themselves".

That notion aside, how do you explain Boko Haram? That group is essentially identical to ISIS in methodology, justifications and goals, and swore loyalty to ISIS. If ISIS is a product of an illegal war and nothing else, how did Boko Haram arose?

McHrozni
How did this outfit arise? What responsibility does the Protestant Church in my street have for them? None at all. No more than the mosque in my street has responsibility for Boko Haram or ISIS, in my view.

ETA Where did you get your "and nothing else" from?

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Old 27th July 2016, 04:06 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No. Your second conclusion is hearsay.

What evidence do you have it would have started anyway?
My number 1 reason is that it did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram

At which point the question really becomes what makes you think it it wouldn't have happened?

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Old 27th July 2016, 04:10 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
How did this outfit arise? What responsibility does the Protestant Church in my street have for them? None at all. No more than the mosque in my street has responsibility for Boko Haram or ISIS, in my view.
LRA is a typical example of an actual aberration, what the Boko Haram and ISIS are supposed to be, but aren't. For example, LRA justifies their campaign of violence with the 10 commandments, which is in direct contradiction of at least one of commands. That's how abusing the scriptures for political gain really looks like.

That isn't the case with Boko Haram or ISIS. They can and do quote large parts of scripture that do justify and even command their deeds. Muslims in general tend to agree "there is more than one way to interpret Islamic scriptures correctly", and make use of that to a large extent. The implications of that are clear, even for you. I'm sure you'll pretend otherwise.

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Old 27th July 2016, 04:15 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Close - they want to die while killing infidels. As far as I know that's the only sure way a Muslim can reach paradise.
You are in incorrect. Per the traditions, being "martyred" and therefore going straight to paradise also includes being drowned, falling off a mountaintop, being eaten by wild animals, being stung by a venomous creature, having a wall fall down on you, dying in childbirth, dying of cholera or the Plague, and even dying a natural death in your bed.

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Meaningless. You'd then need to analyse the sometimes/depends group to see how many of those might be willing to act on their beliefs.
Not really, since Corsair 115's post was about who thinks that acts like that are acceptable.
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Old 27th July 2016, 04:23 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
You are in incorrect. Per the traditions, being "martyred" and therefore going straight to paradise also includes being drowned, falling off a mountaintop, being eaten by wild animals, being stung by a venomous creature, having a wall fall down on you, dying in childbirth, dying of cholera or the Plague, and even dying a natural death in your bed.
Sure, thank you for proving my point - there is more than one "correct" interpretation of Islamics scriptures.

For those genuinely ignorant of what that means: ISIS is completely right to say their actions are Islamic and the only way a Muslim should behave. The fact some Muslims "disagree" with that "interpretation" in no way changes that.

In other words, what we consider Islam is basically a motley collection of religions loosely based on the same sets of texts that allow easy passing from one religion to another. But woe to you if you abandon this set of religions for another set of religions, or if you believe in the wrong subset of these religions, because that makes you a hypocrite that needs to be killed. Which subset it wrong is based solely on which subset is the strongest at the time.

Yeah, it's such a ***************. Some people think that because an unproblematic subset currently exist, the whole system is basically fine and really doesn't need any major improvement. My response to them has always been one of contempt.

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Old 27th July 2016, 04:33 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
LRA is a typical example of an actual aberration, what the Boko Haram and ISIS are supposed to be, but aren't. For example, LRA justifies their campaign of violence with the 10 commandments, which is in direct contradiction of at least one of commands. That's how abusing the scriptures for political gain really looks like.

That isn't the case with Boko Haram or ISIS. They can and do quote large parts of scripture that do justify and even command their deeds. Muslims in general tend to agree "there is more than one way to interpret Islamic scriptures correctly", and make use of that to a large extent. The implications of that are clear, even for you. I'm sure you'll pretend otherwise.
McHrozni
I see. If Muslims commit crimes, it's the fault of their religion. If Christians commit the same crimes, it's an aberration. The problem then as you have stated is Islam. Not "extremist Islamism" but the religion in general in all its aspects. The local imam here, or my neighbours, are guilty of the crimes of Boko Haram, but no other Christian is responsible for Mgr Tiso.

As I have indicated, this kind of reasoning was used a couple of hundred years ago to deny political rights to Catholics. To me, if a Muslim states that these crimes are not consistent with his or her religion, and displays that belief in his or her daily life, then I will accept it. I will not say, only the madmen and bigots understand your faith correctly. That is absurd.

Now, the same argument applies to the "Papists". They did indeed accept the supremacy of the Pope over secular rulers. The Pope was indeed hostile to the British state. By any standards that was a problem of the kind you perceive in Islam. If any Catholic claimed to be a loyal subject, you (along with Blackstone) could prove otherwise, on even better grounds than apply to current Islam, which has no "infallible" Pope, but a mass of different interpretations, as you state. (You know the only "right" one, of course. Maybe you should be Caliph!)

But when in 1829 Catholics finally did receive civil rights, no harm whatsoever was caused to the country, or the state, or any of its institutions. The bogey was an illusion.
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Old 27th July 2016, 04:34 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
My number 1 reason is that it did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram

At which point the question really becomes what makes you think it it would have happened anyway?

McHrozni
We are talking about ISIS and you are the one claiming it would happen anyway.

Up to you to prove it
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Old 27th July 2016, 04:36 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
We are talking about ISIS and you are the one claiming it would happen anyway.

Up to you to prove it
I did admit it could go on by a different name. I fail to see how that would change anything though.

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Old 27th July 2016, 04:38 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I did admit it could go on by a different name. I fail to see how that would change anything though.

McHrozni
They wouldn't have been illegally invaded
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Old 27th July 2016, 04:39 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I see. If Muslims commit crimes, it's the fault of their religion.
No, but I'm glad I was right in that you'll pretend there is still something unclear.

If you're still unable to grasp what is it that Muslims are guilty of, even after the post you quoted and post #145, you lack the necessary qualifications (either linguistic or otherwise) to debate these topics. Please either try to grasp what I'm talking about refrain from making further posts and waste valuable bandwidth. Thank you

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Old 27th July 2016, 04:41 AM   #151
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
They wouldn't have been illegally invaded
There would be no easy way to scapegoat the West, you mean. Sure. A group or collection of groups virtually indistinguishable from ISIS woulds till exist though. How does this change anything in a meaningful way?

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Old 27th July 2016, 04:43 AM   #152
A'isha
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Sure, thank you for proving my point -
That wasn't your point.

Quote:
there is more than one "correct" interpretation of Islamics scriptures.
True.

Quote:
For those genuinely ignorant of what that means: ISIS is completely right to say their actions are Islamic and the only way a Muslim should behave. The fact some Muslims "disagree" with that "interpretation" in no way changes that.
Also true. It also means that Muslims who believe the complete opposite from what ISIS believes ard completely right to say their actions are Islamic and the only way a Muslim should behave. The fact that ISIS "disagrees" with that "interpretation" in no way changes that


Quote:
Yeah, it's such a ***************.
It's also the way all religions work.

Quote:
Some people think that because an unproblematic subset currently exist, the whole system is basically fine and really doesn't need any major improvement. My response to them has always been one of contempt.
You say you understand that Islam is a loose collection of effectively separate religions who have different interpretations of the same set of scriptures, then you focus on how ISIS are justified in claiming that their interpretation is the only correct one and call the whole "system" of Islam problematic based on ISIS' interpretation, to the point where you treat anyone who says exactly the same thing you said at the start of your post with contempt.
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Old 27th July 2016, 05:47 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
They also do not want the Western powers to soften their military action in Syria and Iraq. On the contrary they hope that they will go to a ground war. In their mythology hey believe that they will beat the Romans (viewed as a symbol of the West) in a great battle in Dabiq (Syria). The fact that one of their propaganda online magazines is named Dabiq is not a coincidence.
Indeed, so let's march an army to Dabiq and kick their ass, breaking the prophecy.
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Old 27th July 2016, 05:52 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
ISIS are arguably a direct result of an illegal war.

Their methods are sick as.

But the coalition brought it on themselves
I think that's an oversimplification. While the west's actions in the middle east surely didn't help, let's not forget that that region of the world has been a hotbed of war and tyranny for a long time. Add to that the fact that the Shia and Sunni hate each other probably more than they hate us, and that, if you want to play historian, they attacked us first, and this sort of thing was going to happen one way or another.

But the war on Iraq was poorly executed, and perhaps a bad idea to begin with, and it sure helped to bring ISIS about.
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Old 27th July 2016, 07:46 AM   #155
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Also true. It also means that Muslims who believe the complete opposite from what ISIS believes ard completely right to say their actions are Islamic and the only way a Muslim should behave. The fact that ISIS "disagrees" with that "interpretation" in no way changes that
Unless dead bodies are involved. Which happens surprisingly often with Islam.

Quote:
It's also the way all religions work.
Not even close.

Quote:
You say you understand that Islam is a loose collection of effectively separate religions who have different interpretations of the same set of scriptures, then you focus on how ISIS are justified in claiming that their interpretation is the only correct one and call the whole "system" of Islam problematic based on ISIS' interpretation, to the point where you treat anyone who says exactly the same thing you said at the start of your post with contempt.
It's usually polite to read the arguments from the other person and adress them and not something that wasn't said.

Why can't you argue against my points without using logical fallacies? I have an idea why.

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Old 27th July 2016, 07:53 AM   #156
Craig B
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
No, but I'm glad I was right in that you'll pretend there is still something unclear.

If you're still unable to grasp what is it that Muslims are guilty of, even after the post you quoted and post #145, you lack the necessary qualifications (either linguistic or otherwise) to debate these topics. Please either try to grasp what I'm talking about refrain from making further posts and waste valuable bandwidth. Thank you

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Yes, I thought you'd flee the field shouting a few insults over your shoulder as you went. Have a nice day.

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A'isha got similar treatment, I see.

Last edited by Craig B; 27th July 2016 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 27th July 2016, 08:40 AM   #157
Aepervius
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What then are Muslim citizens of EU countries, and how should they be treated?
Like normal citizen.

I was responding to McHronzi and the pew poll putting two vastly different culture in the same poll. Or mashing different answer together.
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Old 27th July 2016, 09:04 AM   #158
Tolls
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Yes, I thought you'd flee the field shouting a few insults over your shoulder as you went. Have a nice day.

ETA
A'isha got similar treatment, I see.
It's a common tactic.
Apparently we are all incapable of understanding him.
That, of course, is not his fault, via an inability to make himself understood, but ours for being complete numpties.
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Old 27th July 2016, 09:27 AM   #159
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Apparently we are all incapable of understanding him.
To be honest I really doubt it's capacity to understand me that's the problem.

The real problem is that some people are so dumbsided by the mantra of "all religions are equal" and the postulate that "Islam is not to blame" they're unwilling to consider the evidence to the contrary.

When faced by the evidence to the contrary they can't refute, they instead pretend they didn't understand it, so they (in their own rather small minds) don't have to address it and don't have to change their opinions.

It's a common tactic, usually reffered to as trolling I believe.

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Old 27th July 2016, 09:29 AM   #160
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I was responding to McHronzi and the pew poll putting two vastly different culture in the same poll. Or mashing different answer together.
Different culture without the apparently problematic religion doesn't lead to any problems. Different culture with the apparently problematic religion does lead to problems.

How do you conclude from that that mashing different cultures is causing confusion?

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(and not McHronzi )
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