ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Christmas incidents , Germany incidents , terrorism incidents

Reply
Old 27th December 2016, 09:41 AM   #241
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,575
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Certainly, if we vet a person and discover they feel like they should blow up a nightclub to protest America, that would be disqualifying. You would agree someone like that should not be allowed entry into the country?

My point was regarding the consequences of how our policies will make people feel. Immigration policy should not be based on how such policy will make people feel, it should be based on what's good for the country. Do you how hard it is for me, a non-rich person, to become a U.K. citizen? And North Korea doesn't want anything to do with me. Should I be mad about that?
Are the U.K. or North Korea engaged in a generations-long effort to dominate regional policy where you live? Are they backing a puppet dictator or abusive military in the multiple countries near where you live? Have they invaded your country or neighboring countries? Have they cooperated with corrupt heads of state in your part of the world up to and including drone and cruise missile strikes to remove the enemies of those corrupt leaders?

The immigration policy issue doesn't exist in a vacuum and "what's good for the country" is probably for us to present ourselves as being mildly aware of our historical behavior and how this policy might be feeding into the exact problem we claim it is a reaction to.

Quote:
If the minority opinion is over 20%, and the opinion is, it's ok to blow people up to protect religious ideology X, yes we're going to factor that in to our immigration policies (or we should). This has nothing to do with "you people". If people from Poland felt this way, I wouldn't want them here.
I have no problem with a framework that seeks to prevent people from coming here who want to blow us up, we should factor in that this could happen from anywhere. Besides, if you want to argue in favor of prioritizing time and resources towards the biggest statistical threat, then we'll have to change the subject from immigration to domestic policy.

Quote:
Can we stop pandering to Islamic people like they're knee-jerk knuckledragging morons? If country X doesn't want Americans, is that going to push you in some direction? Radicalize you? You talk about Muslims like they're two-year olds, ready to fly into a rage at the slightest provocation.
I said it feeds "increasing hostility and alienation." That does not imply I think anyone is a "knuckledragging moron," or a "two-year old." I would appreciate it if you would not exaggerate my position into absurdity.

Quote:
So do a lot of things. I don't go through life tip-toeing around people for fear that some provocation will set them off.
Not asking you to. But if you know a specific attitude or action is likely to draw a negative response, you can't exactly feign ignorance for continuing to encounter said response.

Quote:
In the end, people choose to hate, be pissed off, and be offended.
That's a great argument in favor of doing things that will predictably and reliably do so.

I mean I know poking that guy in the eye every time I see him pisses him off, but he's just choosing to be, so I see no reason to change my behavior at all!

Quote:
We're under no obligation to allow anyone to come here.
That might be a relevant rebuttal in a conversation about whether to have any immigration at all. If we're going to have immigration, I'd prefer we do it on individual merit.

Quote:
If someone doesn't like it, they can go to some other country.
"We don't want you here and aren't letting you in, if you don't like it, go someplace else!"

Uh???
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 09:55 AM   #242
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,520
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
/end debate
Not at all. A line to be added

... I douse my lamp beside the bolted door.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 10:06 AM   #243
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Are the U.K. or North Korea engaged in a generations-long effort to dominate regional policy where you live? Are they backing a puppet dictator or abusive military in the multiple countries near where you live? Have they invaded your country or neighboring countries? Have they cooperated with corrupt heads of state in your part of the world up to and including drone and cruise missile strikes to remove the enemies of those corrupt leaders?

The immigration policy issue doesn't exist in a vacuum and "what's good for the country" is probably for us to present ourselves as being mildly aware of our historical behavior and how this policy might be feeding into the exact problem we claim it is a reaction to.
That is a very good point. I was myopically viewing our policies in isolation, but as you say, they're all interconnected. Our policies regarding the ME are transparently self-serving, and we do have a lot of atoning to make up for. On that point, I think we should take in Syrian refugees and allow immigration from countries we have interfered with/economically exploited, which is practically speaking every country in the world. I still think we should be very careful about immigrants from countries whose belief systems are diametrically opposed to ours (e.g., women's rights, fundamentalism, terrorism, etc.)

Quote:
I have no problem with a framework that seeks to prevent people from coming here who want to blow us up, we should factor in that this could happen from anywhere. Besides, if you want to argue in favor of prioritizing time and resources towards the biggest statistical threat, then we'll have to change the subject from immigration to domestic policy.
Certainly we can multitask. Terrorism has nothing on the tens of thousands dying every year from opiods/heroin. But we should be able to handle both.

Quote:
I said it feeds "increasing hostility and alienation." That does not imply I think anyone is a "knuckledragging moron," or a "two-year old." I would appreciate it if you would not exaggerate my position into absurdity.
I was making a point. There is this view, esp. in liberal circles, that the slightest provocation (e.g., mentioning radical Islam) will cause millions of Muslims to join ISIS. It's a not very flattering stereotype and it feeds into the right-wing view of a war of civilizations (Islamic savages, vs civilized Europeans).



Quote:
Not asking you to. But if you know a specific attitude or action is likely to draw a negative response, you can't exactly feign ignorance for continuing to encounter said response.
But you can't let others outrage dictate your actions. Charlie Hebdo had every right to satirize Islam.



Quote:
That's a great argument in favor of doing things that will predictably and reliably do so.

I mean I know poking that guy in the eye every time I see him pisses him off, but he's just choosing to be, so I see no reason to change my behavior at all!
Which is why I brought up the distinction of harming vs failing to benefit. If I harm you, I should expect some blowback. If you and another person are begging and I give the other person money, you have no justification to be angry.



Quote:
That might be a relevant rebuttal in a conversation about whether to have any immigration at all. If we're going to have immigration, I'd prefer we do it on individual merit.
Would you assign the same risk factor to every immigrant? For example, would a grandmother from Ukraine get the same going over as a thirty year old male from Egypt?


Quote:
"We don't want you here and aren't letting you in, if you don't like it, go someplace else!"

Uh???
My point was, if a person is upset by a country's immigration policies, the solution is rather obvious: don't try to immigrate to that country.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 27th December 2016 at 10:08 AM.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 10:08 AM   #244
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,575
To clarify, I'm not against the idea of more rigorous screening policies. I object to double standards in screening policies. Besides, that's easily outflanked by radicalizing someone in a country we have a low risk policy towards. Like say, any number of western countries that are embracing more and more xenophobic attitudes against even their own natural-born citizens of certain ethnic or religious backgrounds.

The "extreme vetting" thing is a misnomer. We already have that, it's called a refugee visa. It features an 18-24 month wait while a dozen alphabet soup agencies set up camp in the applicant's colon and go through their life with a fine-toothed comb. Meanwhile, all the attacks against us from foreigners have entered the country on work, student, or tourist visas.

Businesses want cheap labor, schools like tuition payments, and the hospitality/entertainment/service industries like customers. They all have lobbyists.

Refugees don't have lobbyists.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 10:11 AM   #245
A'isha
Miss Schoolteacher
 
A'isha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 15,221
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That is quite a different question, as you well know. I would answer "sometimes" to that one, because the end goal isn't specified. Do we bomb the civilians working at an armaments factory of the country we're at war with? Quite possibly. Do we bomb them to defend a religious ideology? Absolutely not.
Except that question wasn't about military actions against civilians. It was specifically about, as the text of the question explicitly says, "an individual person or a small group of persons" targeting civilians.

There was an entirely separate question in the survey covering the military targeting civilians.

__________________
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus

"Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni

Last edited by A'isha; 27th December 2016 at 10:45 AM.
A'isha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 10:21 AM   #246
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Except that question wasn't about military actions against civilians. It was specifically about, as the text of the question explicitly says, "an individual person or a small group of persons" targeting civilians.

There was an entirely separate question in the survey covering the military targeting civilians.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...pskbkd5hjc.gif[/url]
Interesting. It doesn't seem to square with Pew's survey.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 10:28 AM   #247
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,517
Anyone can draw a bar chart. What makes anyone think that the survey was credible? Polling has a lot of traps.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 10:40 AM   #248
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,575
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That is a very good point. I was myopically viewing our policies in isolation, but as you say, they're all interconnected. Our policies regarding the ME are transparently self-serving, and we do have a lot of atoning to make up for. On that point, I think we should take in Syrian refugees and allow immigration from countries we have interfered with/economically exploited, which is practically speaking every country in the world. I still think we should be very careful about immigrants from countries whose belief systems are diametrically opposed to ours (e.g., women's rights, fundamentalism, terrorism, etc.)
I think not supporting the leaders of those countries by selling them billions of dollars of arms. Especially given how often they are used against their own citizens or somehow find their way into the hands of violent militias 3 borders away.

Quote:
Certainly we can multitask. Terrorism has nothing on the tens of thousands dying every year from opiods/heroin. But we should be able to handle both.
I was especially meaning the identifying and prevention of violent acts being performed by people who have lived here their entire lives. But yes, we can and should be able to address more than one problem at a time. The way we 'address' it should represent our values, however. One of those values I was taught was that you judge every individual on their own actions.

Quote:
I was making a point. There is this view, esp. in liberal circles, that the slightest provocation (e.g., mentioning radical Islam) will cause millions of Muslims to join ISIS. It's a not very flattering stereotype and it feeds into the right-wing view of a war of civilizations (Islamic savages, vs civilized Europeans).
Well, that sounds silly, especially the "slightest provocation" part. What I do think is true is that every time someone proposes a policy that targets a particular group of people based on the actions of other members of that same group (a minority of them, at that), the scales tilt just a little more in that direction. It's 'another brick in the wall' so to speak.

Quote:
But you can't let others outrage dictate your actions. Charlie Hebdo had every right to satirize Islam.
Yeah, nobody is immune from being ridiculed and the response to an offense (perceived, real, manufactured, whatever) should be proportional. But immigration policies aren't satire. Especially for refugees or people trying to find some way to escape repressive regimes, I can understand the existential threat they might feel is implied. So while I agree with your statement, it's a bit of a false equivalence.

Quote:
Which is why I brought up the distinction of harming vs failing to benefit. If I harm you, I should expect some blowback.
Further on that same point, a person from a part of the world where life is fraught with danger probably sees a rejection of request for immigration or a lengthy delay as greatly increasing the potential of their being harmed. Not necessarily that the immigration policy directly harms them, but contributes to the likelihood. Since we see this 'slow down the immigration flow from that part of the world' attitude moving forward across most of the developed world, again we have the issue of a broad rejection of how seriously they feel we are taking their plight.

Basically it's not hard to see how one would conclude:

'man, it seems like all the good places to live where I might not have to look over my shoulder all day are telling me to sod off. Aren't these the same countries that make me feel like I have to look over my shoulder all day? Now that I think about it, my 2nd cousin who moved there 3 years ago has been telling me recently they feel like they have to look over their shoulders all day. Who the hell are these people to wag a finger in my face about behaving like a respectable person?'

Quote:
If you and another person are begging and I give the other person money, you have no justification to be angry.
Capuchins reject unequal pay:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg

Two Capuchins have to complete the same task. If you give them both cucumbers, they are happy to do it. If you give one cucumbers and the other grapes, the one getting cucumbers doesn't like this arrangement.

We could probably go around for hours on whether this is 'justified.' That numerous species repeat this basic paradigm (humans included) is rather firmly established, though.

Quote:
Would you assign the same risk factor to every immigrant? For example, would a grandmother from Ukraine get the same going over as a thirty year old male from Egypt?
Yes, for the simple reason that wherever the weak link in the chain is found is where our enemies are going to attack it.

Quote:
My point was, if a person is upset by a country's immigration policies, the solution is rather obvious: don't try to immigrate to that country.
If all countries provided the same opportunities for prosperity, personal security, etc. that might be more 'obvious.'

I also think we can do some 'physician, heal thyself' thinking about this and maybe if we want to reduce immigration from a given part of the world, maybe we shouldn't contribute to making that part of the world such a miserable hell-hole to live in.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 10:44 AM   #249
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I think not supporting the leaders of those countries by selling them billions of dollars of arms. Especially given how often they are used against their own citizens or somehow find their way into the hands of violent militias 3 borders away.



I was especially meaning the identifying and prevention of violent acts being performed by people who have lived here their entire lives. But yes, we can and should be able to address more than one problem at a time. The way we 'address' it should represent our values, however. One of those values I was taught was that you judge every individual on their own actions.



Well, that sounds silly, especially the "slightest provocation" part. What I do think is true is that every time someone proposes a policy that targets a particular group of people based on the actions of other members of that same group (a minority of them, at that), the scales tilt just a little more in that direction. It's 'another brick in the wall' so to speak.



Yeah, nobody is immune from being ridiculed and the response to an offense (perceived, real, manufactured, whatever) should be proportional. But immigration policies aren't satire. Especially for refugees or people trying to find some way to escape repressive regimes, I can understand the existential threat they might feel is implied. So while I agree with your statement, it's a bit of a false equivalence.



Further on that same point, a person from a part of the world where life is fraught with danger probably sees a rejection of request for immigration or a lengthy delay as greatly increasing the potential of their being harmed. Not necessarily that the immigration policy directly harms them, but contributes to the likelihood. Since we see this 'slow down the immigration flow from that part of the world' attitude moving forward across most of the developed world, again we have the issue of a broad rejection of how seriously they feel we are taking their plight.

Basically it's not hard to see how one would conclude:

'man, it seems like all the good places to live where I might not have to look over my shoulder all day are telling me to sod off. Aren't these the same countries that make me feel like I have to look over my shoulder all day? Now that I think about it, my 2nd cousin who moved there 3 years ago has been telling me recently they feel like they have to look over their shoulders all day. Who the hell are these people to wag a finger in my face about behaving like a respectable person?'



Capuchins reject unequal pay:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg

Two Capuchins have to complete the same task. If you give them both cucumbers, they are happy to do it. If you give one cucumbers and the other grapes, the one getting cucumbers doesn't like this arrangement.

We could probably go around for hours on whether this is 'justified.' That numerous species repeat this basic paradigm (humans included) is rather firmly established, though.



Yes, for the simple reason that wherever the weak link in the chain is found is where our enemies are going to attack it.



If all countries provided the same opportunities for prosperity, personal security, etc. that might be more 'obvious.'

I also think we can do some 'physician, heal thyself' thinking about this and maybe if we want to reduce immigration from a given part of the world, maybe we shouldn't contribute to making that part of the world such a miserable hell-hole to live in.
You make good points.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 10:44 AM   #250
A'isha
Miss Schoolteacher
 
A'isha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 15,221
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Interesting. It doesn't seem to square with Pew's survey.
Different surveyed demographics...the one I cited was specifically a survey of Americans of various religious persuasions.

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Anyone can draw a bar chart. What makes anyone think that the survey was credible? Polling has a lot of traps.
It's from Gallup. It's no more suspect than the Pew survey is.
__________________
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus

"Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni
A'isha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 10:48 AM   #251
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,517
Having made a lot of pie charts and bar charts in my day, and having been subjected to a lot of polls and questionairres, neither polling agency has much credibility with me.
I am sure that the bar charts presented give some people comfort.
If that bar chart helps you feel better about yourself, fine, but I suspect that its intent was something else.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 10:55 AM   #252
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,575
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Having made a lot of pie charts and bar charts in my day, and having been subjected to a lot of polls and questionairres, neither polling agency has much credibility with me.
I am sure that the bar charts presented give some people comfort.
If that bar chart helps you feel better about yourself, fine, but I suspect that its intent was something else.
Perhaps the intent was to counter a false narrative that Muslims are more prone to rationalize or justify the use of violence than other religions/belief systems?
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 12:54 PM   #253
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Perhaps the intent was to counter a false narrative that Muslims are more prone to rationalize or justify the use of violence than other religions/belief systems?
Lucky we have a bar chart to correct for the empirical data coming out of Berlin, Nice, Paris etc.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 01:29 PM   #254
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,575
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Lucky we have a bar chart to correct for the empirical data coming out of Berlin, Nice, Paris etc.
I'm all for the use of empirical data, though it is important to not just list the specific metric of interest to you, but look at other similar metrics for a sense of scale and comparison. For that reason, I hope that's a really wide 'etc.' you were intending.

Not including drug cartel-related data, the comparisons of terrorism by region are telling. Europe struggling with a few hundred deaths per year (which I am not discounting the horror or tragedy of) is a blip on the radar. South Asia/Australasia has seen some of the fastest rises in terrorism incidents both in sheer numbers, but also in terms of outpacing the rise seen in other areas. Then we can compare to empirical data in other areas to perhaps prioritize our interests. Like non-terrorism related crimes involving firearms. How about non-violent threats like heart disease? How many news stories did you see this year about deaths from being struck by lightning? Why are things that represent less of a realistic chance of killing you or anyone you know being brought to your attention at a rate so out of proportion with the things that could credibly kill you (or even the incredible things that are still actually more likely)?

What impact on the decisions people make about how to respond to issues we face is this going to have?

If I post condolences for Paris, Nice, Brussels, and Berlin, lots of likes, lots of comments that echo sympathy from people who have the flag overlay. If I post condolences for Aleppo, I'm introduced to a bunch of 'friends of friends' commenters who express dismay at my dismay.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 27th December 2016 at 01:34 PM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 02:45 PM   #255
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 83,989
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If your entire argument is that you think I'm unqualified to make that estimate then please explain who would be qualified.

While you're at it you should also explain what gives you the right to decide who can make such estimates and who can't. You know, pot and kettle thing?

McHrozni
Again I'll ask, why is it you that gets to set the appropriate level of protest?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2016, 06:39 PM   #256
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,758
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again I'll ask, why is it you that gets to set the appropriate level of protest?
What, the meta-question didn't getcha? Pretty sure that was supposed to stop you in your tracks. Of course, then the obvious question would be what gives him the right to demand you explain what gives you the right to decide who can make such estimates and who can't. You know, pot and kettle and...uh...pot again, I guess... thing, you know?
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 12:18 AM   #257
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,569
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again I'll ask, why is it you that gets to set the appropriate level of protest?
For the fifth time, I'm not setting it, I'm estimating it. If you need an explanation about the difference between the two say so. If you are fully aware of the difference then until you acknowledge that I have no reason to indulge this fantasy of yours.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 01:33 AM   #258
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 83,989
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
For the fifth time, I'm not setting it, I'm estimating it. If you need an explanation about the difference between the two say so. If you are fully aware of the difference then until you acknowledge that I have no reason to indulge this fantasy of yours.

McHrozni
The question remains unanswered, why do you get to set the appropriate level of protest for at least a billion people?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 01:34 AM   #259
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,847
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Either that or drive a wedge between terrorists and the rest of Muslim community, and not a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims as they do know.

McHrozni
As they do?

My my Santa didnt bring you a mirror for xmas I assume?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 01:39 AM   #260
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,847
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
We're working hard to eradicate those wordwide. Further,efforts by zillions of nobodies can have little impact there. They might be better goals, but such an effort would be useless against them.

Care for another try?



Try reading my argument for a change and address that for a change.

McHrozni
We are not working hard enough to eradicate those things. Mobilising an unprecedented number of people would certainly have as much if not more impact than your idea that criminals can be protested out of their criminal behaviour.

If we are going to protest criminal behaviour though lets open it up to all murder and get everyone involved. By your logic a billion person protest could end crime by Thursday.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 09:00 AM   #261
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,569
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The question remains unanswered, why do you get to set the appropriate level of protest for at least a billion people?
I answered the question lots of times. If you wish to know how I made the estimate ask that, and I'll answer that one too.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 09:02 AM   #262
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,569
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
We are not working hard enough to eradicate those things. Mobilising an unprecedented number of people would certainly have as much if not more impact than your idea that criminals can be protested out of their criminal behaviour.

If we are going to protest criminal behaviour though lets open it up to all murder and get everyone involved. By your logic a billion person protest could end crime by Thursday.
Really? Please explain how placards and rallies will defeat hunger. I would dearly want to know. Who knows, maybe it's a way to cut down on the grocery bill.

Do the same for crime while you're at it.

Plan B is to read my argument and figure out what I'm talking about. I'll give you a hint: the goal is not to stop the attacks (though that could be a welcome side effect, it's not the main goal). The goal is something else entirely. Cite what it is to prove you red my posts please.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 28th December 2016 at 09:33 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 09:03 AM   #263
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,569
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
As they do?

My my Santa didnt bring you a mirror for xmas I assume?
Ask Santa for a poll or two. AfD and LePen and Trump aren't on the rise because people suddenly became stupid overnight. Yes, they do dtive a wedge between Muslims and others, in addition to w hile host of other problems. That's their intent and the way Islamic terrorism is particularily dangrous. Moreso than most other kinds, I might add. In addition to being especially bloody it also directly undermines the foundations of our society. Islamic inaction is a part of that.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 28th December 2016 at 09:35 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 10:00 AM   #264
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 83,989
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I answered the question lots of times. If you wish to know how I made the estimate ask that, and I'll answer that one too.

McHrozni
Again why do you get to set the appropriate level of protest?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 10:20 AM   #265
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,520
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Plan B is to read my argument and figure out what I'm talking about. I'll give you a hint ...
Oh, you big tease!
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 01:05 PM   #266
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,847
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Really? Please explain how placards and rallies will defeat hunger. I would dearly want to know. Who knows, maybe it's a way to cut down on the grocery bill.

Do the same for crime while you're at it.

Plan B is to read my argument and figure out what I'm talking about. I'll give you a hint: the goal is not to stop the attacks (though that could be a welcome side effect, it's not the main goal). The goal is something else entirely. Cite what it is to prove you red my posts please.

McHrozni
Im pretty sure a three hundred million person rally against hunger would motivate politicians to up their game in addressing it. But hey we dont need to justify mechanisms for how it works do we? After all you just pulled the idea out of your backside. That you've doubled down on it rather than admitting it was a bit silly is certainly telling.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 02:06 PM   #267
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,569
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Im pretty sure a three hundred million person rally against hunger would motivate politicians to up their game in addressing it. But hey we dont need to justify mechanisms for how it works do we? After all you just pulled the idea out of your backside. That you've doubled down on it rather than admitting it was a bit silly is certainly telling.
If you had red my posts you'd know I have done so. Run along now and explaim this theory of yours further, preferably in an appropriate thread. If you agree with it you agree with my point by the way. If that's the case we are no longer in any disagreement.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 02:07 PM   #268
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,569
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again why do you get to set the appropriate level of protest?
You're just trying to make me violate Rule 0, aren't you?
I find that impolite, and more than slightly desperate to be honest. Ask me a question I haven't answered already and you might get an answer.
Or don't and keep pretending you're asking something I can't answer. Your choice. We're done until you acknowledge you're putting words I explicitly rejected in my mouth, and correct that.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 28th December 2016 at 02:24 PM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2016, 02:11 PM   #269
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 8,951
What seems permissible relates to what behaviors one thinks one's peer group would applaud or condemn. Thus, a Dylann Roof, who associated with those who applauded his later actions. Hutus killing Tutsis: "Some militias called themselves the "Army of Jesus" and they believed their mission was to destroy God's enemies (wiki)." This is especially true if the group and its worldview/ideology provides mental short-cuts for dehumanizing those they oppose with common epithets.

So there are two valid questions one can raise wrt Islamic terrorism today: To what degree and in what forms do radicalized Islamic terrorists receive validation, and even helpful hate speech, to provide them with a covering narrative? To what degree does the ideology itself, barring unconventional interpretations, lend itself to, or even explicitly condone, terrorism?
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 02:11 AM   #270
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,847
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If you had red my posts you'd know I have done so. Run along now and explaim this theory of yours further, preferably in an appropriate thread. If you agree with it you agree with my point by the way. If that's the case we are no longer in any disagreement.

McHrozni
My theory that your ridiculous call for three hundred million Muslims to protest terrorism is idiotic? No I think that theory is fine just here.

That you can see the flaws in it for everything except Muslims says it all. That you can always find a special pleading for everything when it come to muslims is astounding.

You insist everybody who disagrees with you hasnt read your posts. Do you really think everyone here struggles with English except yourself? We have read your posts. They're ridiculous.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 02:16 AM   #271
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,847
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
What seems permissible relates to what behaviors one thinks one's peer group would applaud or condemn. Thus, a Dylann Roof, who associated with those who applauded his later actions. Hutus killing Tutsis: "Some militias called themselves the "Army of Jesus" and they believed their mission was to destroy God's enemies (wiki)." This is especially true if the group and its worldview/ideology provides mental short-cuts for dehumanizing those they oppose with common epithets.

So there are two valid questions one can raise wrt Islamic terrorism today: To what degree and in what forms do radicalized Islamic terrorists receive validation, and even helpful hate speech, to provide them with a covering narrative? To what degree does the ideology itself, barring unconventional interpretations, lend itself to, or even explicitly condone, terrorism?
Well on the latter it would seem that unconventional interpretations are exactly what is being discussed so it would be hard to bar them.

The people who most vehemently insist that proper Muslims and proper Islam equates to terrorism are people like we see on this thread. Theyll never be convinced otherwise not even by their wet dream of three hundred million muslims protesting in unison. In fact if it ever did happen they would find a way to turn even that against Muslims
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 04:00 AM   #272
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,569
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
My theory that your ridiculous call for three hundred million Muslims to protest terrorism is idiotic?
Again with this nonesense? Really?

I fully addressed this complaint of yours in post #114. Here's the link for your convenience:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=114

It's in the second segment.

Quote:
That you can see the flaws in it for everything except Muslims says it all. That you can always find a special pleading for everything when it come to muslims is astounding.
There is no special plea. If you think the same mechanic can be applied to, say, hunger then please, make a case for it, as I have for Islamist terrorism. Your entire claim that the same thing can be used for anything else is baseless. Police repression can't effectively fight hunger either - is that a special plea too?

Quote:
You insist everybody who disagrees with you hasnt read your posts. Do you really think everyone here struggles with English except yourself? We have read your posts. They're ridiculous.
Well, given that you (and some others) keep insisting I'm claiming things I've explicitly repudiated in this very thread, and have linked those posts to you repeatedly, then the mildest accusation I can think of is that you have not, in fact, red them. If you think there is something else at play then please, say so.

Truth to be told, I'm quite sure you did read my posts, found them painfully agreeable, and are struggling to write something against them to the point the best you can do is a straw man argument, because I have written something you'll never agree with and can't let go.
I'm right, aren't I?

The same goes for you, Darat.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 29th December 2016 at 04:02 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 04:25 AM   #273
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 8,951
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Well on the latter it would seem that unconventional interpretations are exactly what is being discussed so it would be hard to bar them.

The people who most vehemently insist that proper Muslims and proper Islam equates to terrorism are people like we see on this thread. Theyll never be convinced otherwise not even by their wet dream of three hundred million muslims protesting in unison. In fact if it ever did happen they would find a way to turn even that against Muslims
Nevertheless, I would invite you to actually do the research into what Islam preaches, and devise a way to deal with the life examples of Mohamed (hadith) which believers are encouraged to emulate. Find me that formally moderate Islam that is being twisted, and I'll agree to change my opinion. Not moderate people, mind you; that you get with any creed owing to natural human empathy.

Or take institutional Islam, in other words, those actions and statements made by a large majority of Muslim nations to express their common stance. Surely these are reasoned and moderate(?). In this, we have as examples the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in IslamWP, and the Defamation of Religion and the United NationsWP. Enjoy.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 06:03 AM   #274
A'isha
Miss Schoolteacher
 
A'isha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 15,221
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Nevertheless, I would invite you to actually do the research into what Islam preaches, and devise a way to deal with the life examples of Mohamed (hadith) which believers are encouraged to emulate. Find me that formally moderate Islam that is being twisted, and I'll agree to change my opinion. Not moderate people, mind you; that you get with any creed owing to natural human empathy.
See Andrew Rippin's Muslims: Their Beliefs and Practices (for an overview of those theologies and the Muslim scholars who have written about them, from a Western, non-Muslim perspective) or Khaled Abou El-Fadl's The Great Theft (for an explication of one such theology from the perspective of one of those Muslim scholars).
__________________
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus

"Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni
A'isha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 06:17 AM   #275
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,847
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Again with this nonesense? Really?

I fully addressed this complaint of yours in post #114. Here's the link for your convenience:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=114

It's in the second segment.



There is no special plea. If you think the same mechanic can be applied to, say, hunger then please, make a case for it, as I have for Islamist terrorism. Your entire claim that the same thing can be used for anything else is baseless. Police repression can't effectively fight hunger either - is that a special plea too?



Well, given that you (and some others) keep insisting I'm claiming things I've explicitly repudiated in this very thread, and have linked those posts to you repeatedly, then the mildest accusation I can think of is that you have not, in fact, red them. If you think there is something else at play then please, say so.

Truth to be told, I'm quite sure you did read my posts, found them painfully agreeable, and are struggling to write something against them to the point the best you can do is a straw man argument, because I have written something you'll never agree with and can't let go.
I'm right, aren't I?

The same goes for you, Darat.

McHrozni
The very first word of the part of the post you link to proving that I am misinterpreting you is you agreeing with my interpetation.

You say things, agree to saying them then claim people dont read your posts when they disagree with you, deny saying the things then go back to saying them. Its literally ridiculous.

And you wonder why the worlds muslim population dont want to put on a show for you?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 06:30 AM   #276
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,847
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Nevertheless, I would invite you to actually do the research into what Islam preaches, and devise a way to deal with the life examples of Mohamed (hadith) which believers are encouraged to emulate. Find me that formally moderate Islam that is being twisted, and I'll agree to change my opinion. Not moderate people, mind you; that you get with any creed owing to natural human empathy.

Or take institutional Islam, in other words, those actions and statements made by a large majority of Muslim nations to express their common stance. Surely these are reasoned and moderate(?). In this, we have as examples the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in IslamWP, and the Defamation of Religion and the United NationsWP. Enjoy.
I have an easy way to deal with this. I dont live my life by ancient books or try to replicate the life of people who lived centuries before me. I suggest everyone else do likewise. I certainly dont engage in trying to second guess the meaning of fictional characters in books.

If your book tells you the earth is flat you are wrong. If your book tells you dinosaurs and men coexisted you are wrong. If your book tells you to kill people you are wrong. No interpretation required.

You cannot wiggle out of looking at moderate people because it is the people and their actions that matter. Probably moreso in Islam than certain other religions because of its lack of clear leadership. Im not sure you can so easily disconnect say Catholics from thee actions of the pope or their church.

If I applied your arguments to other principles like say capitalism or democracy would you so quick to tar all their adherents with the same brush as their bad actors?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 08:09 AM   #277
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,569
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The very first word of the part of the post you link to proving that I am misinterpreting you is you agreeing with my interpetation.
Correct, it does. Now read the rest if you will, the response was a bit longer than one word. It specified what the number signified, which you apparently never grasped. Is that really so difficult?

As for the show comment, they would be doing it for themselves, mainly. I'm just a messenger, shooting those isn't typically the best way to solve problems (although I can think of an exception).

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 29th December 2016 at 08:13 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 11:46 AM   #278
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,969
SPIEGEL reports that electronic helper systems in the Truck initiated a full braking a second after becoming aware of objects in the way, likely preventing many more victims and the culprit being "martyred" the way it was intended. SCANIA ad? Awesome anyway.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2016, 01:45 PM   #279
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,847
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Correct, it does. Now read the rest if you will, the response was a bit longer than one word. It specified what the number signified, which you apparently never grasped. Is that really so difficult?

As for the show comment, they would be doing it for themselves, mainly. I'm just a messenger, shooting those isn't typically the best way to solve problems (although I can think of an exception).

McHrozni
A simple admission that 300 million is a stupid number would be far more expedient than trying to convince that you never really meant it.

Now lets settle on a sensible number. Since we are talking about european muslims now according to a later clarification from you.

Woodstock got 400k out of 200m americans and was fairly significant. Thats 10 times the population of muslims in the eu. So 40000 muslims gathering in London would be as significant as woodstock give or take.

So the event you dismiss as insignificant is actually three quarters or more of a woodstock and achieved without much publicity on a single day and without global celebrities.

And it goes largely unreported while a few hundred gathering to protest over syria is painted as an insurgency of extremists.

Now even puting that aside no matter what the number is what are they meant to achieve? Convince isis to give up? Or are you really suggesting that muslims need toto put on a show to convince the bigots and racists of their good intentions. Because they wont do either.

So what exactly are you achieving with your reminding muslims of their need to do something to impress you?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2016, 12:45 AM   #280
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,569
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
A simple admission that 300 million is a stupid number would be far more expedient than trying to convince that you never really meant it.
It's unrealistic to achieve it, but not stupid. The reason I wrote it is because someone here pretended that a one time event of 30,000 Muslims from the world over was a major event against Islamic extremism.

By way of comparison, for every Muslim that rallied againt Islamic extremism in a one time event, over 60 travelled to Mecca on a yearly event of neo-paganism. If that doesn't demonstrate their priorities are a bit off, what would?

Quote:
Now lets settle on a sensible number. Since we are talking about european muslims now according to a later clarification from you.

Woodstock got 400k out of 200m americans and was fairly significant. Thats 10 times the population of muslims in the eu. So 40000 muslims gathering in London would be as significant as woodstock give or take.

So the event you dismiss as insignificant is actually three quarters or more of a woodstock and achieved without much publicity on a single day and without global celebrities.
The said rally was a wordwide event. Why do you only count European Muslims when Muslims from all over the world attended? By that standard we would be talking about over 2 million people. Yes, that would be significant and it would be a major achivement. If it were done yearly, as Woodstock is (right?), then it would work wonders over a decade or so.

Quote:
Now even puting that aside no matter what the number is what are they meant to achieve? Convince isis to give up? Or are you really suggesting that muslims need toto put on a show to convince the bigots and racists of their good intentions. Because they wont do either.
I already addressed that, but since you did show some interest, here I go again. The main danger of Islamic terror isn't the death toll, but the fact every attack drives Muslims further away from Muslims. This isn't due to bigotry, but because the attacks are in the name of Islam, justified by Islamic scriptures and often done by people otherwise not seen as particularily problematic. They decide to read the Koran a bit more, and a little later they drive trucks in festuve crowds. Non-Muslims examine the teachings and find that the justifications are indeed there, clear as they can be. Islamic response to the attacks ranges from "don't blame Islam" to "yes, but Israel..." to "Muslims grievances", it never addresses the teachings, history, context or anything else that explains the attack. In this light more and more peoplw grow suspicious of Muslims. How many welcome the attacks, but wouldn't carry them out themselves? How many are cheering the dead kaffir, and are planning to emulate the attackers?

It's not bigotry, and it's certainly not racism. Muslims have shaken the confidence in them, shaken it badly, and should now work to restore that confidence, for the good of us all. They would benefit the most from it, incidentally, since incidents od what you might call bigotry and islamophobia would fall and might eventually even disappear altogether - irrespective of terrorist attacks. The terrorists lose in this scenario even if the attacks continue unabated. A major, consistent and severe Muslim rejection of the attackers can defeat the terrorists. Nothing else can. I therefore call for a major, consistent and severe pan-Islamic rejection of Islamuc terrorism. What we see now is a minor, inconsistent and mild, before you ask.

I ask again, how on Earth is this controversial??

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 30th December 2016 at 12:49 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:41 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.