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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 4th September 2016, 03:09 PM   #1121
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He might as well have been. He recommended that Jews simply accept Hitler's plan of extermination.

It doesn't surprise me that many Jews have an issue with Ghandi - for these are the same people who killed Jesus.
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Old 4th September 2016, 04:14 PM   #1122
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
It doesn't surprise me that many Jews have an issue with Ghandi
Who said anything about Jews having a problem with Ghandi?

Quote:
for these are the same people who killed Jesus.
The "antizionism" mask slips, and nobody is surprised by what lurks underneath.
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Old 4th September 2016, 11:24 PM   #1123
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Who said anything about Jews having a problem with Ghandi?



The "antizionism" mask slips, and nobody is surprised by what lurks underneath.


So...are you denying that the Jews killed Jesus? It's a fact...ya' just can't deny that (because the Bible says so)! Seriously...Judaism is strange - it's the only religion that murdered its own God! And you really wonder why some people don't like Jews? And...it's the one of the few religions that boasts of killing innocent women and children (unfortunately, the Xtians adopted those books, too).

But...down here in the Bible Belt, the Bible-thumping Xtians believe that God has prepared a special place for Jews where they will burn and cry and suffer for eternity - hell: it will be like Aushwitz to the 100,000,000th power.

Me...I don't believe any of that. But it's fun to tweak your nose with it.
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Old 5th September 2016, 12:12 AM   #1124
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He might as well have been. He recommended that Jews simply accept Hitler's plan of extermination.
Simply ridiculous.

Quote:
My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships, therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for the Jews. (Gandhi, Op. cit.)
Everybody that is not an agressive Zionist is a racist anti semitic for you. If Gandhi was pacifist he would be anti semitic. Sheer fanaticism and intolerance.
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Old 5th September 2016, 01:28 AM   #1125
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The European genocide of the Jews was (and is) used as the justification to occupy Palestine. In the second quarter of the twentieth century only the most idealist Zionists could think that this occupation could be made without resistance and without ethnic cleansing.
At this moment these idealist Zionists are practically unexistent.
This justification has been used in this thread even , if I remember well, by yourself. It amazes me that you pretend to be so naive.
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I have never said the Holocaust is an excuse to kill or steal. If you think I have, quote it.

Having said that, it's important not to minimize the Holocaust. For a people to go through that experience and then to expect them to behave as though it didn't happen is insanely inhumane. The Holocaust is not an "excuse to kill and steal", as you put it, but it a part of the history of Zionism and is an important factor.
Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
I figured if the ....cough cough...Antizionists can post truncated quotes and articles...
Dear Wolrab, it is you that don’t quote correctly. I never said that Mycroft had justified "kill and steal" with the Holocaust. He said that Holocaust is "an important factor" (of what?). Mycroft thinks he is clever and never calls a spade a spade. An excuse becomes “a factor”. And going to Palestine to fight against the Palestinians in order to appropriate their land is “immigration”. Let us call the things by their names, please. When the Zionist went to Palestine after the Second World War he knew perfectly what was to be done, barring a minority of blind idealists.
Nazi’s anti-Semitic policy, specially the called “Holocaust”, was the direct cause of the end of the division between the Zionists and the anti Zionists Jewish leaders. Only a minority remained non-Zionist. Notwithstanding, the idea of Palestine as land of asylum for the escaped of the genocide was false. Only a 10% of the Jews that fled from Europa went to Palestine, even with the restrictions of immigration in USA and other countries and the pressure of the Zionists. (Ilan Pappe, Op. Cit. p. 172).

About the excuse of the Holocaust as justification of the Israeli State and Zionism, see, among many others, the statements of Ben Gurion in Eichmann’s trial about the heroism of the Jewish State in opposition to the “abject submission” of the non-Zionist leadership during the Second World War. And Israel as land of asylum, of course. (Hannah Arendt: Eichmann en Jerusalén, Barcelona, Lumen, 1999, p. 22).

(To be continued).
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Old 5th September 2016, 05:42 AM   #1126
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Dear Wolrab, it is you that don’t quote correctly. I never said that Mycroft had justified "kill and steal" with the Holocaust. He said that Holocaust is "an important factor" (of what?). Mycroft thinks he is clever and never calls a spade a spade. An excuse becomes “a factor”. And going to Palestine to fight against the Palestinians in order to appropriate their land is “immigration”. Let us call the things by their names, please. When the Zionist went to Palestine after the Second World War he knew perfectly what was to be done, barring a minority of blind idealists.
Nazi’s anti-Semitic policy, specially the called “Holocaust”, was the direct cause of the end of the division between the Zionists and the anti Zionists Jewish leaders. Only a minority remained non-Zionist. Notwithstanding, the idea of Palestine as land of asylum for the escaped of the genocide was false. Only a 10% of the Jews that fled from Europa went to Palestine, even with the restrictions of immigration in USA and other countries and the pressure of the Zionists. (Ilan Pappe, Op. Cit. p. 172).

About the excuse of the Holocaust as justification of the Israeli State and Zionism, see, among many others, the statements of Ben Gurion in Eichmann’s trial about the heroism of the Jewish State in opposition to the “abject submission” of the non-Zionist leadership during the Second World War. And Israel as land of asylum, of course. (Hannah Arendt: Eichmann en Jerusalén, Barcelona, Lumen, 1999, p. 22).

(To be continued).
There are examples throughout this thread (and any other conspiracy theory threads) where quotes are posted to prove a point. The problem is the quote is taken out of context or preceding sentences or paragraphs are omitted that demonstrate what the author of the quote meant. I consider this to be intentionally lying.
I never responded to (till this post) or mentioned you. I quoted Mycroft, as is obvious if you look at the very short post: Me red, Mycroft blue:
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I have never said the Holocaust is an excuse to kill or steal. If you think I have, quote it.

Fish in a barrel:

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
...the Holocaust is an excuse to kill or steal.

I figured if the ....cough cough...Antizionists can post truncated quotes and articles...

My opinion on Israel: If I was a Palestinian I would rather live in Israel where I would be one hell of a lot safer, have more freedoms, and not be the victim of the decisions made by the PA or Hamas.
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Old 5th September 2016, 05:42 AM   #1127
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
So...are you denying that the Jews killed Jesus?
I'm denying it's relevant to this thread.

Quote:
But...down here in the Bible Belt, the Bible-thumping Xtians believe that God has prepared a special place for Jews where they will burn and cry and suffer for eternity - hell: it will be like Aushwitz to the 100,000,000th power.

Me...I don't believe any of that. But it's fun to tweak your nose with it.
Yes, you enjoy spouting hatred of Jews. Again, no one is surprised.
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Old 5th September 2016, 07:12 AM   #1128
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those crafty Joooos. Is there anything they can't do?
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Old 5th September 2016, 10:06 AM   #1129
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
About the Zionist refusal to one State in 1929:

The Zionist leaders tactically accepted the British’s proposal meanwhile the Palestininans were against it...
What proposal was this?

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
In these circumstances the “Jewish Home” was inevitably linked to “kill and steal”, this is to say, a war of occupation aimed to the ethnic cleaning of Palestine.
Linked by you, not them.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Was GAndhi an antisemite?
Why not ask, instead, if he was correct?

The false choice fallacy that either all of the criticism of Israel or none of the criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic is a fallacy pushed exclusively by so-called "anti-Zionists".

Right now you have Jules Galen running around calling Jews Christ-killers for fun, you have Caveman1917 posting videos that supposedly show Jews secretly believe non-Jews are beasts or slaves, you yourself are claiming that Jewish immigrants somehow have fewer rights than Arabs, but can't make an argument that's not either nationalist or racist...and you're not even slightly embarrassed by all this.

Nevermind Gandhi, address the racism that's right here.
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Old 5th September 2016, 10:34 AM   #1130
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What proposal was this?



Linked by you, not them.



Why not ask, instead, if he was correct?

The false choice fallacy that either all of the criticism of Israel or none of the criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic is a fallacy pushed exclusively by so-called "anti-Zionists".

Right now you have Jules Galen running around calling Jews Christ-killers for fun, you have Caveman1917 posting videos that supposedly show Jews secretly believe non-Jews are beasts or slaves, you yourself are claiming that Jewish immigrants somehow have fewer rights than Arabs, but can't make an argument that's not either nationalist or racist...and you're not even slightly embarrassed by all this.

Nevermind Gandhi, address the racism that's right here.

I think you are taking yourself too seriously.
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Old 5th September 2016, 10:44 AM   #1131
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
I think you are taking yourself too seriously.
Because...you think racism, at least this specific racism, shouldn't be taken seriously?

That's a disgusting and shameful idea.
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Old 5th September 2016, 11:00 AM   #1132
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Because...you think racism, at least this specific racism, shouldn't be taken seriously?

That's a disgusting and shameful idea.
Hey dude...I just don't think people as confused as yourself should be taken so seriously. FYI, Judaism is not a race...it's a religion: just like Scientology or Mormonism. (Except, the Science Fiction associated with Scientology is a lot better than the fiction associated with Judaism.) And if ya' don't want to be laughed at, then quit identifying with such nonsense.

But...if you do decide to identify with Judaism, please do everyone a favor - don't become one of those blood-sucking Mohels who sexually molest babies. I mean, I thought the Catholics and their priests were repugnant (and their eating God at Mass on Sunday), but when I read about those Jewish Mohels I nearly had a stroke - what a bunch of perverted fiends! Also, if the Jews are trying to live down accusations of a "Blood Libel", then sucking blood from the end of a babies' penis doesn't exactly make that easy, does it?
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Old 5th September 2016, 11:24 AM   #1133
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Hey dude...I just don't think people as confused as yourself should be taken so seriously. FYI, Judaism is not a race...it's a religion: just like Scientology or Mormonism. (Except, the Science Fiction associated with Scientology is a lot better than the fiction associated with Judaism.) And if ya' don't want to be laughed at, then quit identifying with such nonsense.

But...if you do decide to identify with Judaism, please do everyone a favor - don't become one of those blood-sucking Mohels who sexually molest babies. I mean, I thought the Catholics and their priests were repugnant (and their eating God at Mass on Sunday), but when I read about those Jewish Mohels I nearly had a stroke - what a bunch of perverted fiends! Also, if the Jews are trying to live down accusations of a "Blood Libel", then sucking blood from the end of a babies' penis doesn't exactly make that easy, does it?
Anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are two completely different things! Yet somehow when you poke an anti-Zionist, anti-Semitism always seeps out. Sometimes it's just a little, sometimes it's quite a lot.
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Old 5th September 2016, 02:05 PM   #1134
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are two completely different things! Yet somehow when you poke an anti-Zionist, anti-Semitism always seeps out. Sometimes it's just a little, sometimes it's quite a lot.
Wait...first it was racism, and now it's aniti-semitism? What is it? Are you still confused? I mean, even using the term "Anti-semitism" betrays your confusion because "Semitic" does not refer to either a race or religion - but a language group that includes Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic and many others.

Naw...I'm making fun of Judaism...because it needs the mocking. And there's a lot to mock about the silly beliefs, cults and traditions associated with this religion. Judaism is not a set of beliefs a rational person would use to guide his/her life, and it's certainly not a solid foundation of principals on which to form a country. But is happens anyways....and people wonder why it all goes wrong.

So...don't try to cry and whine and snivel that life is so unfair when Judaism gets mocked - it's not different from the Catholics, Mormons, Scientologists, Muslims and Hindus that get mocked for their stupid beliefs.

And you are a Jew, aren't you Mycroft? I mean, I figured you'd have to be because you got the biggest case of Butthurt I have ever seen a forum poster display - and the only way I figure you could get to that state is if somehow it is very personal to you. And if you are a Jew, just know that I'll think less of you for it - for you will have shown your willingness to embrace religious nonsense as a life's guide.
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Old 5th September 2016, 03:15 PM   #1135
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Wait...first it was racism, and now it's aniti-semitism? What is it? Are you still confused? I mean, even using the term "Anti-semitism" betrays your confusion because "Semitic" does not refer to either a race or religion - but a language group that includes Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic and many others.
The term antisemitism, as a general rule, refers specifically to Jews and is widely considered to be a form of racism.

Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Naw...I'm making fun of Judaism...because it needs the mocking. And there's a lot to mock about the silly beliefs, cults and traditions associated with this religion. Judaism is not a set of beliefs a rational person would use to guide his/her life, and it's certainly not a solid foundation of principals on which to form a country. But is happens anyways....and people wonder why it all goes wrong.
There is plenty to mock and criticize. That doesn't mean that such is always a meaningful response to what was said or that it's on topic. With that said, personally, I do doubt that the Jews killed Jesus to a fairly similar extent to my doubt that Jesus existed in a similar form to what the NT claims in the first place, but also find that claim to be of limited value to this thread. There could have been relevance had you been referring to the long-term and religiously based discrimination against the Jews, of course, but you fairly clearly were not using the comment as such and if it was just intended as mocking, as you've confirmed, your defense here isn't really much of a defense.
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Old 5th September 2016, 03:46 PM   #1136
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Oh Jeebus…

Jules,

Anti-Semitism is a subset of racism. The only one who finds that confusing is you.

Aridas has already covered the definition of anti-Semitism. The actual practice of hating Jews doesn’t go away just because you try to change the definition of the word that describes it.

Nobody here is arguing for or against any religion except you and Caveman1917. Believing in a religion be it Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or whatever doesn’t take away from the rights of the believer in exactly the same way that not believing in a religion, be it Judaism, Islam, Christianity, etc. should not take away from your rights.

My personal opinion is that arguing religion is pointless because unless those arguing belong to the same sect of the same religion, they won’t share enough common reference points to make it worthwhile, and even then it would only matter to those people who belong to that same sect of that same religion.

What’s my religion? Again, I’m a bit flummoxed that those who are absolutely positively not-bigoted in any way somehow need to classify everyone. When I use religion to make a point, then you should wonder about it.
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Old 5th September 2016, 05:32 PM   #1137
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Simply ridiculous.
So you don't know the truth, then.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/gandh...and-cowardice/

"Hitler is not a bad man. […] The Germans of future generations will honor Herr Hitler as a genius, as a brave man, a matchless organizer and much more.” – Gandhi

“If I were a Jew and were born in Germany … I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German may, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon. … And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy. … The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant.” - Ghandi

Ghandi may not have wanted the holocaust. But he wanted the Jews to do nothing to resist it. He may not have been motivated by malice, but it wouldn't have made any difference if he was.
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Old 5th September 2016, 08:21 PM   #1138
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Oh Jeebus…

Jules,

Anti-Semitism is a subset of racism. The only one who finds that confusing is you.

Aridas has already covered the definition of anti-Semitism. The actual practice of hating Jews doesn’t go away just because you try to change the definition of the word that describes it.

Nobody here is arguing for or against any religion except you and Caveman1917. Believing in a religion be it Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or whatever doesn’t take away from the rights of the believer in exactly the same way that not believing in a religion, be it Judaism, Islam, Christianity, etc. should not take away from your rights.

My personal opinion is that arguing religion is pointless because unless those arguing belong to the same sect of the same religion, they won’t share enough common reference points to make it worthwhile, and even then it would only matter to those people who belong to that same sect of that same religion.

What’s my religion? Again, I’m a bit flummoxed that those who are absolutely positively not-bigoted in any way somehow need to classify everyone. When I use religion to make a point, then you should wonder about it.
Not really, since what you are discussing is where religion meets politics. And I have found discussing such matters with a religious apologist is no more fruitful than discussing High-rise Architecture with a "9/11 Truffer".
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Old 5th September 2016, 09:06 PM   #1139
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Not really, since what you are discussing is where religion meets politics.
That's everywhere there is religion. Religion is political. One doesn't need to be religious to recognize that.

People who are religious are still people. Muslim, Jew, Christian, Sikh, whatever. Even if you don't like their beliefs, they still have rights and disrespecting them is still asshat behavior.

Saying you hate a lot of groups of people is not an acceptable excuse for hating any one group of people.

Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
And I have found discussing such matters with a religious apologist is no more fruitful than discussing High-rise Architecture with a "9/11 Truffer".
You're generally the one who makes conversations unfruitful.
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Old 6th September 2016, 12:40 AM   #1140
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What proposal was this?
Parity of representation. “Parity can be defined as guaranteed quantitatively equal access to certain elective positions.” (Mariette Sineau: “Institutionalizing Parity: The French Experience”, International IDEA, 2002)

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Why not ask, instead, if he was correct?
Because Gandhi’s assertion is that the Jews had not the right to occupy the land of the Palestinians and the resistance against Zionists was fair, leaving aside their methods. This was my very idea that you blamed for anti-Semitic. Now you see what ridiculous it sounds when applied to Gandhi. Yes, it is ridiculous that every time that one criticise the Zionism you claim “Anti-Semite, anti-Semite!” It is worse than ridiculous. It is the intent of consummate the impunity of Zionism.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Right now you have Jules Galen running around calling Jews Christ-killers for fun, you have Caveman1917 posting…
It is my custom to answer for my own words only. That the antisemitism exists is an obvious thing. In Spain we say that you have discovered the garlic soup.
To blame the Jews for “they have killed the Lord” is the basis of all Christian anti-Semitism that begins with Paul, Luke and specially John. This is historically false (Jews had not the power to crucify at this time, etc.) and ethically disgusting.
I have not seen the videos that you mentioned.
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Old 6th September 2016, 12:46 AM   #1141
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So you don't know the truth, then.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/gandh...and-cowardice/

"Hitler is not a bad man. […] The Germans of future generations will honor Herr Hitler as a genius, as a brave man, a matchless organizer and much more.” – Gandhi

“If I were a Jew and were born in Germany … I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German may, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon. … And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy. … The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant.” - Ghandi

Ghandi may not have wanted the holocaust. But he wanted the Jews to do nothing to resist it. He may not have been motivated by malice, but it wouldn't have made any difference if he was.
Therefore, it was ridiculous to say that Gandhi wanted the genocide. Simply, he was a consistent pacifist. I am not. But I quoted Gandhi because his concept of what is right was similar to mine in this case and he justified the resistance agiainst Zionists.

The first quote surprises me because it is contradictory with what Gandhi wrote in other articles. For example: "But the German persecution of the Jews seems to have no parallel in history. The tyrants of old never went so mad as Hitler seems to have gone. " (Op. cit.). I suspect your quote is out of context. Can you precise it? Thanks.

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Old 6th September 2016, 01:06 AM   #1142
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Here the full quote.

Whatever Hitler may ultimately prove to be, we know what Hitlerism has come to mean, It means naked, ruthless force reduced to an exact science and worked with scientific precision. In its effect it becomes almost irresistible.
Hitlerism will never be defeated by counter-Hitlerism. It can only breed superior Hitlerism raised to nth degree. What is going on before our eyes is the demonstration of the futility of violence as also of Hitlerism.
What will Hitler do with his victory? Can he digest so much power? Personally he will go as empty-handed as his not very remote predecessor Alexander. For the Germans he will have left not the pleasure of owning a mighty empire but the burden of sustaining its crushing weight. For they will not be able to hold all the conquered nations in perpetual subjection. And I doubt if the Germans of future generations will entertain unadulterated pride in the deeds for which Hitlerism will be deemed responsible. They will honour Herr Hitler as genius, as a brave man, a matchless organizer and much more. But I should hope that the Germans of the future will have learnt the art of discrimination even about their heroes. Anyway I think it will be allowed that all the blood that has been spilled by Hitler has added not a millionth part of an inch to the world’s moral stature.

Harijan (22 June 1940), after Nazi victories resulting in the occupation of France.

It is quite different. I advise you to select better your sources. The guy and the paper you chose seems sheer libel.
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Old 6th September 2016, 06:09 AM   #1143
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Therefore, it was ridiculous to say that Gandhi wanted the genocide.
I didn't say he wanted the genocide.

Quote:
Simply, he was a consistent pacifist. I am not. But I quoted Gandhi because his concept of what is right was similar to mine in this case and he justified the resistance agiainst Zionists.
If he's a pacifist and you are not, then you really do not have similar concepts of what is right.

Quote:
The first quote surprises me because it is contradictory with what Gandhi wrote in other articles.
In other words, you didn't know.

I'm sure that first quote is from an earlier date than the quotes where he attacks Hitler, and I'm sure his opinion of Hitler changed over time. Nevertheless, my still reveals two things about Ghandi that invalidate him as a moral authority. First, it reveals a blindness to the reality of evil. Second, it reveals a dangerous level of dogmatism in his assertion that Jews should have chosen collective suicide over resistance.

Ghandi may have been friendly to the Jews, but he was no friend of the Jews.
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Old 6th September 2016, 06:12 AM   #1144
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Because Gandhi’s assertion is that the Jews had not the right to occupy the land of the Palestinians and the resistance against Zionists was fair, leaving aside their methods. This was my very idea that you blamed for anti-Semitic.
Ghandi insisted that the Jews should have let Hitler kill them all in the name of pacifism. But he says that Palestinians had the right to resist Zionism, when the methods for resistance cannot be left aside. That's hypocrisy of the highest levels. If that's not actually antisemitism, the distinction makes no practical difference.
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Old 6th September 2016, 08:10 AM   #1145
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If he's a pacifist and you are not, then you really do not have similar concepts of what is right.
We coincide in the ends -free Palestine-, but not the means -pacific resistance-.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In other words, you didn't know.

I'm sure that first quote is from an earlier date than the quotes where he attacks Hitler, and I'm sure his opinion of Hitler changed over time. Nevertheless, my still reveals two things about Ghandi that invalidate him as a moral authority. (...)
Ghandi may have been friendly to the Jews, but he was no friend of the Jews.
I am afraid you don't realize that I have given you the full quote -my comment of 10:06 AM-. The full paragraph has a very different meaning than your source pretended. This was a stupid exercise of manipulation aimed to give a false idea of Gandhi's outlook on Nazism.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ghandi insisted that the Jews should have let Hitler kill them all in the name of pacifism. But he says that Palestinians had the right to resist Zionism, when the methods for resistance cannot be left aside. That's hypocrisy of the highest levels. If that's not actually antisemitism, the distinction makes no practical difference.

As I have told you Gandhi was a consistent pacifist that led a successful struggle against the colonialism in India with peaceful means. He thought that a military victory is worse than a peaceful defeat. He therefore recommanded the peaceful resistance against any tyrany. This conviction was based on spiritual assumptions drawn from Buddist and Hinduist moralities and extended to many other religious and laicists leaders. You can think that the refusal to kill or the peaceful resistance are useless or naive, but not hipocrisy at all, because it was his personal rule forever and it required a lot of self sacrifice..
Therefore, Gandhi's thought is usually considered highly moral although hardly appliable.
I recommended you this page: http://www.gandhiserve.org/informati...palestine.html. Maybe this can help you to get a better understanding of Gandhi than you have.

Last edited by David Mo; 6th September 2016 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 6th September 2016, 08:26 AM   #1146
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
We coincide in the ends -free Palestine-
Is Saudi Arabia free? Is Iran free?

Quote:
I am afraid you don't realize that I have given you the full quote
I realize that quite well. But it changes nothing of what I said. Ghandi didn't understand what Hitler was until it was too late, and even then, he still thought the Jews should accept genocide.

Quote:
As I have told you Gandhi was a consistent pacifist that led a successful struggle against the colonialism in India with peaceful means.
That success was dependent upon the fundamental decency of the British, who recoiled at their own violence. The enemies of the Jews have never recoiled at their own violence against the Jews.

Quote:
He thought that a military victory is worse than a peaceful defeat.
There is nothing peaceful about genocide.
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Last edited by Ziggurat; 6th September 2016 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 6th September 2016, 11:12 AM   #1147
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post

Hitlerism will never be defeated by counter-Hitlerism. It can only breed superior Hitlerism raised to nth degree. What is going on before our eyes is the demonstration of the futility of violence as also of Hitlerism.
Just to re-quote this bit as it shows the sheer folly of applying Gandhi's principles universally.

Heh, "the futility of violence"... someone should refer to operations Overlord and Bagration and recognise how the Third Reich was actually defeated. (A mental step that Gandhi was unable or unwilling to take).
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Old 6th September 2016, 11:56 AM   #1148
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Ghandi: If the rest of Europe had just peacefully submitted to Nazi Germany, the Nazis would have given up on oppressing them eventually. Peaceful submission is the right choice.

David Mo: If the rest of Palestine had just peacefully submitted to the Zionist Entity, the Zionists would have given up on oppressing them eventually. Peaceful submission is the right thing to do.
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Old 6th September 2016, 02:32 PM   #1149
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I didn't say he wanted the genocide.



If he's a pacifist and you are not, then you really do not have similar concepts of what is right.



In other words, you didn't know.

I'm sure that first quote is from an earlier date than the quotes where he attacks Hitler, and I'm sure his opinion of Hitler changed over time. Nevertheless, my still reveals two things about Ghandi that invalidate him as a moral authority. First, it reveals a blindness to the reality of evil. Second, it reveals a dangerous level of dogmatism in his assertion that Jews should have chosen collective suicide over resistance.

Ghandi may have been friendly to the Jews, but he was no friend of the Jews.
I'm surprised many Jews didn't try to crucify him.
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Old 6th September 2016, 03:17 PM   #1150
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
I'm surprised many Jews didn't try to crucify him.
Surprised or dissapointed?
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Old 6th September 2016, 03:33 PM   #1151
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
I'm surprised many Jews didn't try to crucify him.
You're not even pretending you're just anti-zionist anymore, are you? Well, good for you. Don't hide your true beliefs.
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Old 6th September 2016, 03:35 PM   #1152
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're not even pretending you're just anti-zionist anymore, are you? Well, good for you. Don't hide your true beliefs.
That's just how he acts when he's feeling "butthurt".
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Old 6th September 2016, 06:50 PM   #1153
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Parity of representation. “Parity can be defined as guaranteed quantitatively equal access to certain elective positions.” (Mariette Sineau: “Institutionalizing Parity: The French Experience”, International IDEA, 2002)
I can’t find a meaningful answer in this. You claimed (per Ian Pape) that Zionists rejected a proposal in 1929. What is the proposal they rejected? Who proposed it?

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Because Gandhi’s assertion is that the Jews had not the right to occupy the land of the Palestinians and the resistance against Zionists was fair, leaving aside their methods.
“Leaving aside their methods” is a huge caveat, don’t you think? Would Gandhi advocate strapping suicide vests to children when there is a negotiation table with empty chairs? To Gandhi the method of resistance was more important than resistance itself, and to twist his teachings in this way is beyond grotesque.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
This was my very idea that you blamed for anti-Semitic. Now you see what ridiculous it sounds when applied to Gandhi.
Gandhi was just a man. He accomplished great things, yes, but he’s still just a man.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
It is my custom to answer for my own words only. That the antisemitism exists is an obvious thing. In Spain we say that you have discovered the garlic soup.
If you want to distance yourself from anti-Semitism you would do better to not ignore its casual presence in your environment rather than to try to make some abstract point about Gandhi.

Since you’ve dropped the issue, can I take that as tacit admission you can’t come up with an example where the Holocaust was used as an excuse to kill and steal?
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Old 6th September 2016, 08:18 PM   #1154
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
It doesn't surprise me that many Jews have an issue with Ghandi - for these are the same people who killed Jesus.
John 3:16, one of the most well known quotes from the bible

Originally Posted by The Gospel of John, Chapter 3 verse 16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Just wanted to show that even the bible itself doesn't support this myth. The whole point of the bible and christian dogma is that Jesus willingly sacrificed himself to pay for mankind's sins, AFAIK. Just goes to show that there's no lie too low for Jew haters to sink to.
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Old 6th September 2016, 08:44 PM   #1155
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Originally Posted by Ivanesca View Post
John 3:16, one of the most well known quotes from the bible



Just wanted to show that even the bible itself doesn't support this myth. The whole point of the bible and christian dogma is that Jesus willingly sacrificed himself to pay for mankind's sins, AFAIK. Just goes to show that there's no lie too low for Jew haters to sink to.
Err... that's actually not much of a counter. That Jesus supposedly willingly sacrificed himself doesn't change that those who actively sought his death and, in the end, were officially responsible for the death were the Jewish officials in the story. There's other points that you can make with the "willing sacrifice" claim, but not the one that you're trying to make. Anyways, hopefully, that's enough of that tangent.
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Old 6th September 2016, 11:52 PM   #1156
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is Saudi Arabia free? Is Iran free?
The first step towards liberty is the end of occupation and segregation.
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Old 7th September 2016, 12:00 AM   #1157
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Just to re-quote this bit as it shows the sheer folly of applying Gandhi's principles universally.

Heh, "the futility of violence"... someone should refer to operations Overlord and Bagration and recognise how the Third Reich was actually defeated. (A mental step that Gandhi was unable or unwilling to take).
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ghandi: If the rest of Europe had just peacefully submitted to Nazi Germany, the Nazis would have given up on oppressing them eventually. Peaceful submission is the right choice.

David Mo: If the rest of Palestine had just peacefully submitted to the Zionist Entity, the Zionists would have given up on oppressing them eventually. Peaceful submission is the right thing to do.
Are you trying to answer my posts? I have only said that Gandhi was not pro-Hitler, that he was not immoral and that he was not anti-Semite. Any problem with this?
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Old 7th September 2016, 12:34 AM   #1158
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I can’t find a meaningful answer in this. You claimed (per Ian Pape(sic)) that Zionists rejected a proposal in 1929. What is the proposal they rejected? Who proposed it?
The proposal was one State with parity of representation. Ilan Pappe don't detail the terms of the refusal. I can imagine it.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Gandhi was just a man. He accomplished great things, yes, but he’s still just a man.
Obviously, but he was not anti-Semite and this was the question I have put here.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If you want to distance yourself from anti-Semitism you would do better to not ignore its casual presence in your environment rather than to try to make some abstract point about Gandhi.
I will distance myself from the anti-Semites when the debate so requires. I have done it twice at least in this forum. If you have a wide concept of anti-Semitisme that includes everything, it is your problem.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Since you’ve dropped the issue, can I take that as tacit admission you can’t come up with an example where the Holocaust was used as an excuse to kill and steal?
I have already done it in relation to Ben Gurion. I don’t understand why you insist again and again. Do you think that Ben Gurion and others didn’t “kill and steal” in Palestine?
About the important impact of genocide on Jews of the Diaspora you can see: “In the Shadow of the Holocaust”, by Yosef Grodzinsky. Here: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/in-the...ef-grodzinsky/ .
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Old 7th September 2016, 03:51 AM   #1159
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The first step towards liberty is the end of occupation and segregation.
And the first step to the glorious rule of the proletariat is to kill the bourgeoisie. Except it doesn't work out that way.
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Old 7th September 2016, 06:59 AM   #1160
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And the first step to the glorious rule of the proletariat is to kill the bourgeoisie. Except it doesn't work out that way.
We are not speaking of the class struggle. We are speaking of neo-colonialism.

(My curiosity: who preach "the glorious rule of the proletriat to kill the bourgeoisie"?)
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