IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

Reply
Old 27th September 2021, 01:39 PM   #2041
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
So you agree that it's bad faith to suggest that not funding Israel's anti-missile system would lead to an escalation of ground troops in Palestinian territory?
The point wasn't about our funding specifically, but about Iron Dome itself. And the absence of Iron Dome likely would lead to an escalation. Iron Dome is, therefore, a morally good thing. Given that Iron Dome is morally defensible and an obvious net good, then the only reasonable objection to funding it is a fiscal one: we shouldn't spend our money on that, but on other things (or not spend it at all). And there is ground there for a rational and even moral position against US funding.

But AOC isn't making any such fiscal argument.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2021, 04:31 PM   #2042
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 13,174
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The point wasn't about our funding specifically, but about Iron Dome itself. And the absence of Iron Dome likely would lead to an escalation. Iron Dome is, therefore, a morally good thing. Given that Iron Dome is morally defensible and an obvious net good, then the only reasonable objection to funding it is a fiscal one: we shouldn't spend our money on that, but on other things (or not spend it at all). And there is ground there for a rational and even moral position against US funding.

But AOC isn't making any such fiscal argument.
The vote itself was about a fiscal point. Nobody thinks the Israelis are not going to fund the Iron Dome themselves if they have to.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2021, 05:35 PM   #2043
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The vote itself was about a fiscal point.
And?

Fiscal responsibility isn't why AOC was crying. Are you actually contesting that? Do you really think that her emotional response was because she's worried about what that will do to the US budget deficit? Of course that isn't why.

Quote:
Nobody thinks the Israelis are not going to fund the Iron Dome themselves if they have to.
Sure. But AOC doesn't want us to be part of it, because she views it as a bad thing. The charitable interpretation is that she's too stupid to understand the point made earlier that Iron Dome actually protects Palestinian civilians.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2021, 08:40 PM   #2044
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,529
In my opinion, AOC (Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez) should have voted "No" on the Iron Dome funding bill (like her colleague Representative Ilhan Omar), instead of just abstaining , which is what she did:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/aoc-se...-funding-bill/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...y-israel-vote/.

I don't think the U.S. of America, which has currently a large and growing deficit, should borrow money to financially support a state (Israel) which illegally occupies the territories of its neighbor Palestine.

This is an old and very deep problem: (almost) unconditional support for Israel has really become a cornerstone of U.S. foreign policy for many years now.

If the occupations and persecutions stopped (and this would be something easy to do), there would be no more rocket fire from Gaza, and the U.S. and Israel could spend a large amont of money they spend on so-called "defense" on other issues, for example climate protection.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 04:45 AM   #2045
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 13,174
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And?

Fiscal responsibility isn't why AOC was crying. Are you actually contesting that? Do you really think that her emotional response was because she's worried about what that will do to the US budget deficit? Of course that isn't why.



Sure. But AOC doesn't want us to be part of it, because she views it as a bad thing. The charitable interpretation is that she's too stupid to understand the point made earlier that Iron Dome actually protects Palestinian civilians.
I've not much interest in the reasons for AOC changing her vote, nor the performative stunts of AOC generally.

If you want to talk about the politics of the decision, there are other congressional reps who voted no, stuck to their vote, and explained their reasoning in clear terms.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 05:54 AM   #2046
webfusion
Philosopher
 
webfusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,004
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post

...If the occupations and persecutions stopped (and this would be something easy to do), there would be no more rocket fire from Gaza, and the U.S. and Israel could spend a large amont of money they spend on so-called "defense" on other issues, for example climate protection.
If it was so 'easy' perhaps Yassir Arafat could have handled it properly and simply closed that chapter during direct negotiations that he conducted at Camp David in 2000.

The sticking point then (and now) is not 'occupations' but rather, a small, 37-acre public park (containing the Foundation Stone of all three Abrahamic religions, now protected under a golden-domed Islamic shrine-cum-mosque) that is known to Jews worldwide as the Temple Mount, our holiest site.

Why did you put scare quotes on the word defense, when specifically Iron Dome (Tamir interceptor system) is for defense? Do you know something about the Tamir rockets that we don't know? Is there any other application for those projectiles other than defense?
webfusion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 08:35 AM   #2047
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
If it was so 'easy' perhaps Yassir Arafat could have handled it properly and simply closed that chapter during direct negotiations that he conducted at Camp David in 2000.

The sticking point then (and now) is not 'occupations' but rather, a small, 37-acre public park (containing the Foundation Stone of all three Abrahamic religions, now protected under a golden-domed Islamic shrine-cum-mosque) that is known to Jews worldwide as the Temple Mount, our holiest site.

Why did you put scare quotes on the word defense, when specifically Iron Dome (Tamir interceptor system) is for defense? Do you know something about the Tamir rockets that we don't know? Is there any other application for those projectiles other than defense?
Quote:
The sticking point then (and now) is not 'occupations' but rather, a small, 37-acre public park (containing the Foundation Stone of all three Abrahamic religions, now protected under a golden-domed Islamic shrine-cum-mosque) that is known to Jews worldwide as the Temple Mount, our holiest site.
The Temple Mount is occupied territory (it is part of the Old City, and therefore, of East Jerusalem), and it should therefore (in principle) be evacuated by Israeli forces, unless some other deal is agreed:
Quote:
During the Six-Day War in 1967, which saw hand-to-hand fighting on the Temple Mount, Israeli forces captured the Old City along with the rest of East Jerusalem, subsequently annexing them as Israeli territory and reuniting them with the western part of the city. Today, the Israeli government controls the entire area, which it considers part of its national capital. However, the Jerusalem Law of 1980, which effectively annexed East Jerusalem to Israel, was declared null and void by United Nations Security Council Resolution 478. East Jerusalem is now regarded by the international community as part of occupied Palestinian territory.[8][9]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Ci...litical_status).

This doesn't mean that Jews living in these areas should be evicted, however.

Quote:
Why did you put scare quotes on the word defense, when specifically Iron Dome (Tamir interceptor system) is for defense? Do you know something about the Tamir rockets that we don't know? Is there any other application for those projectiles other than defense?
I agree that the Iron Dome is purely defensive in nature:
Quote:
Iron Dome (Hebrew: כִּפַּת בַּרְזֶל‎, romanized: Kippat Barzel) is a mobile all-weather air defense system[8] developed by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems and Israel Aerospace Industries.[7] The system is designed to intercept and destroy short-range rockets and artillery shells fired from distances of 4 kilometres (2.5 mi) to 70 kilometres (43 mi) away and whose trajectory would take them to an Israeli populated area.[9][10]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome).

But this is of course far from being true for all expenditures and activities of the Ministry of Defense of Israel, Mossad, the United States Department of Defense and the CIA.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 08:49 AM   #2048
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
If the occupations and persecutions stopped (and this would be something easy to do), there would be no more rocket fire from Gaza
This is one of the stupidest possible conclusions one can reach regarding this conflict.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 09:53 AM   #2049
Hercules56
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,161
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
In my opinion, AOC (Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez) should have voted "No" on the Iron Dome funding bill (like her colleague Representative Ilhan Omar), instead of just abstaining , which is what she did:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/aoc-se...-funding-bill/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...y-israel-vote/.

I don't think the U.S. of America, which has currently a large and growing deficit, should borrow money to financially support a state (Israel) which illegally occupies the territories of its neighbor Palestine.

This is an old and very deep problem: (almost) unconditional support for Israel has really become a cornerstone of U.S. foreign policy for many years now.

If the occupations and persecutions stopped (and this would be something easy to do), there would be no more rocket fire from Gaza, and the U.S. and Israel could spend a large amont of money they spend on so-called "defense" on other issues, for example climate protection.
Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on US aid to Turkey, bearing in mind their continued illegal occupation of northern Cyprus?

What are your thoughts on US aid to Morocco, considering their continued occupation of Western Sahara?

What are your thoughts on China's invasion, occupation and annexation of Tibet?

Or are you only concerned when Jews occupy a territory?
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 09:54 AM   #2050
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This is one of the stupidest possible conclusions one can reach regarding this conflict.
Take for example the 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis:
Quote:
An outbreak of violence in the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict commenced on 10 May 2021, though disturbances took place earlier, and continued until a ceasefire came into effect on 21 May. It was marked by protests and police riot control, rocket attacks on Israel by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and Israeli airstrikes targeting the Gaza Strip. The crisis was triggered[34] on 6 May, when Palestinians began protests in East Jerusalem over an anticipated decision of the Supreme Court of Israel on the eviction of six Palestinian families in Sheikh Jarrah.[35]
...
Around 4,360 rockets have been fired towards Israel from Gaza
...
Caused by
- Planned decision by the Supreme Court of Israel on the eviction of four Palestinian families in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah
- Storming of the al-Aqsa Mosque by Israeli police[1]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_I...lestine_crisis).

As you can see from this wikipedia article, the causes were closely related to the occupation.

It is reasonable to expect that Palestinian violence would subside considerably, should the occupations end.

There might remain some small level of violence by extremists even after a full Israeli withdrawal, which might have to be dealt with through diplomacy, or police or military force.

Last edited by Michel H; 28th September 2021 at 10:02 AM.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 10:05 AM   #2051
Hercules56
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,161
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Take for example the 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_I...lestine_crisis).

As you can see from this wikipedia article, the causes were closely related to the occupation.

It is reasonable to expect that Palestinian violence would subside considerably, should the occupations end.

There might remain some small level of violence by extremists even after a full Israeli withdrawal, which might have to be dealt with through diplomacy, or police or military force.
So you believe firing rockets indiscriminately against civilians is an acceptable and moral response to possible home evictions?

Last edited by Hercules56; 28th September 2021 at 10:20 AM.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 10:17 AM   #2052
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It is reasonable to expect that Palestinian violence would subside considerably, should the occupations end.
History has already proven otherwise with the Israeli withdrawl from Gaza. And Hamas defines all of Israeli territory as occupied, so... when do you figure that occupation should end?

Quote:
There might remain some small level of violence by extremists even after a full Israeli withdrawal, which might have to be dealt with through diplomacy, or police or military force.
Doesn't that describe the current situation?

You're like a parody of yourself.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 10:24 AM   #2053
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on US aid to Turkey, bearing in mind their continued illegal occupation of northern Cyprus?

What are your thoughts on US aid to Morocco, considering their continued occupation of Western Sahara?

What are your thoughts on China's invasion, occupation and annexation of Tibet?

Or are you only concerned when Jews occupy a territory?
The good principles of democracy (and international law) should in principle apply uniformly to all countries, not just Israel. But northern Cyprus, Western Sahara and Tibet do not have the same geopolitical importance as Palestine, and the levels of violence and conflict there are probably much lower.

I am not convinced, by the way, that the U.S (which has a large deficit) should give aid to so many countries. It would probably be more useful that they stop financial aid to Israel (which has a military nature), lift sanctions imposed to so many countries (Iran, for example), join a treaty to ban nuclear weapons, and greatly reduce their military spending, which is essentially causing a lot of trouble in the world.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 10:25 AM   #2054
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Take for example the 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_I...lestine_crisis).

As you can see from this wikipedia article, the causes were closely related to the occupation.
This is also naive.

A few evictions don't really matter. It beggars belief to think that that's really what triggered so much violence. And it almost certainly wasn't. Much more likely the real driving force was internal conflict between Hamas and Fatah about elections, which were scheduled for March after year and years (and years) of being postponed. By stoking conflict with Israel, Hamas was also jockeying for position with the Fatah. And I promise you, Hamas cares a **** of a lot more about its power relative to Fatah than it cares about a few mere evictions.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 10:30 AM   #2055
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
So you believe firing rockets indiscriminately against civilians is an acceptable and moral response to possible home evictions?
No, I did not say that.

I don't make a moral judgment about Palestinian use of violence against an illegal occupation.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 10:33 AM   #2056
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The good principles of democracy (and international law) should in principle apply uniformly to all countries, not just Israel. But northern Cyprus, Western Sahara and Tibet do not have the same geopolitical importance as Palestine
Palestine has NO actual geopolitical importance. There are no resources there, it is not a strategic location. The conflict isn't about geopolitics. It's about antisemitism, and it's about an excuse used by Muslim nations to distract their populations from their own failures.

Quote:
I am not convinced, by the way, that the U.S (which has a large deficit) should give aid to so many countries. It would probably be more useful that they stop financial aid to Israel (which has a military nature), lift sanctions imposed to so many countries (Iran, for example), join a treaty to ban nuclear weapons, and greatly reduce their military spending, which is essentially causing a lot of trouble in the world.
Here's a quick question for you. Suppose that we gave up our entire nuclear arsenal. Does that make Iran more or less inclined to get nuclear weapons of their own?

You might be tempted to answer that it would make them less inclined. But this is the answer that stupid people give.

Even a cursory examination of game theory demonstrates why this is wrong, and why this would make Iran more inclined to develop nuclear weapons. And the obvious reason is that the relative power of one nuclear bomb is higher if there are fewer other nuclear bombs in the world. If the US has no nuclear weapons, then even one nuclear weapon gives Iran nuclear arms advantage over us. In contrast, if we have a large arsenal, Iran cannot actually compete with that. They can get a few nuclear weapons, but they can never hope to match us, let alone exceed us.

Some people don't like to think about these cold hard realities, but they won't go away by ignoring them. The world is not a place where we can all just get along. People won't always be nice to you in return for you being nice to them. Don't be naive about reality.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 10:34 AM   #2057
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I don't make a moral judgment about Palestinian use of violence against an illegal occupation.
Of course not. If you didn't have double standards, you wouldn't have any standards.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 10:37 AM   #2058
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
History has already proven otherwise with the Israeli withdrawl from Gaza. And Hamas defines all of Israeli territory as occupied, so... when do you figure that occupation should end?



Doesn't that describe the current situation?

You're like a parody of yourself.
I think that, for an Israeli withdrawal from occupied Palestinian territories to be successful (and bring real security to Israelis), it should be complete (this means, back to the pre-1967 border, in agreement with U.N. Security Council resolutions), unless some changes are (freely) accepted by the Palestinians.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 11:46 AM   #2059
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Palestine has NO actual geopolitical importance. There are no resources there, it is not a strategic location. The conflict isn't about geopolitics. It's about antisemitism, and it's about an excuse used by Muslim nations to distract their populations from their own failures.



Here's a quick question for you. Suppose that we gave up our entire nuclear arsenal. Does that make Iran more or less inclined to get nuclear weapons of their own?

You might be tempted to answer that it would make them less inclined. But this is the answer that stupid people give.

Even a cursory examination of game theory demonstrates why this is wrong, and why this would make Iran more inclined to develop nuclear weapons. And the obvious reason is that the relative power of one nuclear bomb is higher if there are fewer other nuclear bombs in the world. If the US has no nuclear weapons, then even one nuclear weapon gives Iran nuclear arms advantage over us. In contrast, if we have a large arsenal, Iran cannot actually compete with that. They can get a few nuclear weapons, but they can never hope to match us, let alone exceed us.

Some people don't like to think about these cold hard realities, but they won't go away by ignoring them. The world is not a place where we can all just get along. People won't always be nice to you in return for you being nice to them. Don't be naive about reality.
Quote:
Here's a quick question for you. Suppose that we gave up our entire nuclear arsenal. Does that make Iran more or less inclined to get nuclear weapons of their own?
I would say somewhat less inclined, because the Iranians would appreciate the U.S. concern for human life, but the elimination of all nuclear weapons should be ideally a global effort, accompanied by political steps which reduce tensions (e.g. justice for the Palestinians, independance granted to Taiwan, no more economic sanctions, peace treaty for Korea and so on).
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 12:51 PM   #2060
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I think that, for an Israeli withdrawal from occupied Palestinian territories to be successful (and bring real security to Israelis), it should be complete (this means, back to the pre-1967 border, in agreement with U.N. Security Council resolutions), unless some changes are (freely) accepted by the Palestinians.
Hamas doesn't think that's a complete withdrawl. They aren't going to accept that. So why do you think they will stop attacking Israel?

How can you persist in these delusions?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 12:55 PM   #2061
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I would say somewhat less inclined, because the Iranians would appreciate the U.S. concern for human life
Bwahahahahahahaha!

No. That's just stupid.

Quote:
but the elimination of all nuclear weapons should be ideally a global effort
Ideally, no one would ever want to go to war, everyone would be nice to everyone, and icecream would be a health food.

We do not live in an ideal world.

Quote:
accompanied by political steps which reduce tensions (e.g. justice for the Palestinians, independance granted to Taiwan, no more economic sanctions, peace treaty for Korea and so on).
You can't grant to Taiwan what they already have. They are independent. What they aren't is universally recognized as independent, but it's still a fait accompli.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 01:10 PM   #2062
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,411
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
So you believe firing rockets indiscriminately against civilians is an acceptable and moral response to possible home evictions?
Particulary when the guy you are firing at has a lot more stuff then you he can fire back with.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 01:44 PM   #2063
Hercules56
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,161
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Particulary when the guy you are firing at has a lot more stuff then you he can fire back with.
Yes, the Palestinians' endgame is so logical and intelligent.

Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 02:05 PM   #2064
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Hamas doesn't think that's a complete withdrawl. They aren't going to accept that. So why do you think they will stop attacking Israel?

How can you persist in these delusions?
Conquest, occupation, and support for conquest and occupation is definitely not the solution for peace (in my opinion, at least).

Peace isn't based on constant humiliation of one party by another, it's more an equality and mutual respect thing.

Once Israel has renounced its 1967 conquests (if this happens one day, not sure about that), one may speculate that Hamas might soften its positions, like they already have in the past, or the Palestinians may decide that it is no longer justified to vote for Hamas in elections, and it is necessary from now on to focus on peace and economic development.

Then, Hamas might almost disappear as Palestinian society develops. Of course, if they keep on carrying out violent acts, that would have to be dealt with.

Last edited by Michel H; 28th September 2021 at 02:07 PM.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 02:09 PM   #2065
Hercules56
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,161
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Conquest, occupation, and support for conquest and occupation is definitely not the solution for peace (in my opinion, at least).

Peace isn't based on constant humiliation of one party by another, it's more an equality and mutual respect thing.

Once Israel has renounced its 1967 conquests (if this happens one day, not sure about that), one may speculate that Hamas might soften its positions, like they already have in the past, or the Palestinians may decide that it is no longer justified to vote for Hamas in elections, and it is necessary fom now on to focus on peace and economic development.

Then, Hamas might almost disappear as Palestinian society develops. Of course, if they keep on carrying out violent acts, that would have to be dealt with.
The framework is LAND for PEACE. The Palestinians have a long way to go, before they have proved to the Israelis and the world that they can actually remain peaceful with Israelis. That concept was pretty much destroyed after the 2nd Intifada, which began because Bibi broke through a stupid old rock wall. A people eligible for statehood cannot act with deadly violence every time someone does something they do not like. That's not the recipe for nationhood, but childhood.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 02:24 PM   #2066
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Conquest, occupation, and support for conquest and occupation is definitely not the solution for peace (in my opinion, at least).
Hamas thinks it is, as long as they're the ones doing the conquest.

The incoherence and self-contradictions within your beliefs are really something to behold.

Quote:
Peace isn't based on constant humiliation of one party by another, it's more an equality and mutual respect thing.
You don't actually know anything about Hamas, do you? They're never going to respect Jews. Their aspirations are explicitly genocidal.

Quote:
Once Israel has renounced its 1967 conquests (if this happens one day, not sure about that), one may speculate that Hamas might soften its positions
That's just criminally stupid.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2021, 06:05 PM   #2067
webfusion
Philosopher
 
webfusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,004
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The framework is LAND for PEACE. The Palestinians have a long way to go, before they have proved to the Israelis and the world that they can actually remain peaceful with Israelis. That concept was pretty much destroyed after the 2nd Intifada, which began because Bibi broke through a stupid old rock wall. A people eligible for statehood cannot act with deadly violence every time someone does something they do not like. That's not the recipe for nationhood, but childhood.
That framework must be left behind in the dust.

A different and completely pragmatic paradigm should be introduced and implemented, namely, the NSS (NewState in Gaza/N.Sinai).
By removing all consideration of the West Bank being developed as lands of PalestineState, and focusing on NEOM connecting to N.Sinai/Gaza, there is a realistic goal of a PalestineState in statu nascendi.

Saudi Arabia is salivating at that outcome, as are several other wealthy Arab nations.

Prime Minister Bennett knows this, and has obviously discussed it with Egypt's leader, as well as UAE, Qatar, etc.
Now, to get the Biden Administration to stop pussyfooting around with the "Withdraw to 1967 Armistice Lines" regurgitation and get onboard with a plan that has a chance of working, then we can all move ahead.

By the way, the 2nd Intifada didn't start because of Bibi's actions at all. It was a result of Arik Sharon making his traditional Rosh Hashana pilgrimage to the Temple Mount (which he annually did in honor of his compatriot Motta Gur, who had been the commander of the 55th Paratroopers Reserve Brigade in 1967).
Ehud Barak was the Prime Minister at the time the 2nd Intifada began.

Just to keep the record straight.
webfusion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 05:42 AM   #2068
Hercules56
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,161
Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
That framework must be left behind in the dust.

A different and completely pragmatic paradigm should be introduced and implemented, namely, the NSS (NewState in Gaza/N.Sinai).
By removing all consideration of the West Bank being developed as lands of PalestineState, and focusing on NEOM connecting to N.Sinai/Gaza, there is a realistic goal of a PalestineState in statu nascendi.....
So all the Palestinians in the West Bank will move to the Sinai?

Funny.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 07:36 AM   #2069
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,995
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Conquest, occupation, and support for conquest and occupation is definitely not the solution for peace (in my opinion, at least).
Hamas' original charter states 'this land is our by right of conquest'.
It also explicitly rules out a peaceful solution.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Peace isn't based on constant humiliation of one party by another, it's more an equality and mutual respect thing.
Do you think that Hamas and Islamic Jihad respect Jews? Do you think they want equality with them?
You are delusional if you do.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Once Israel has renounced its 1967 conquests (if this happens one day, not sure about that), one may speculate that Hamas might soften its positions, like they already have in the past, or the Palestinians may decide that it is no longer justified to vote for Hamas in elections, and it is necessary from now on to focus on peace and economic development.

Then, Hamas might almost disappear as Palestinian society develops. Of course, if they keep on carrying out violent acts, that would have to be dealt with.
Israel pulled out of Gaza. What happened then? Hamas took over, and almost immediately started firing rockets into Israel.
Iranian forces are in Syria, close to the Golan Heights, also trying to attack Israel.
As it stands, Israel has no motive at all to withdraw any further, say, from the West Bank.
I don't agree with their occupation of this territory, but I can absolutely understand why they remain there, and that reason is the actions of their enemies.
Hamas is know for siting its rocket launchers in civilian areas, and for forcibly preventing the inhabitants from leaving to escape the inevitable Israeli reprisals. They will continue to carry out acts of violence, in order to provoke an Israeli reaction that will inevitably cause Palestinian Arab civilian casualties. Hamas is not interested in peace, nor in the welfare of Palestinian civilians. It is only interested in war against Israel, and is using its own people as cannon fodder in this war.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 08:16 AM   #2070
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 51,891
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The framework is LAND for PEACE. The Palestinians have a long way to go, before they have proved to the Israelis and the world that they can actually remain peaceful with Israelis. That concept was pretty much destroyed after the 2nd Intifada, which began because Bibi broke through a stupid old rock wall. A people eligible for statehood cannot act with deadly violence every time someone does something they do not like. That's not the recipe for nationhood, but childhood.
Got it they are legally stateless non people and deservedly so.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 09:12 AM   #2071
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,995
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got it
I have noted before that every time you start with this particular phrase, you follow it with something that clearly proves you haven't got it......

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
they are legally stateless non people and deservedly so.
....and you've done it again.
Congratulations, Captain Strawman. You never fail to disappoint.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 11:39 AM   #2072
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 51,891
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I have noted before that every time you start with this particular phrase, you follow it with something that clearly proves you haven't got it......



....and you've done it again.
Congratulations, Captain Strawman. You never fail to disappoint.
It is clear they are not a real nation but a subject people. And they clearly deserve it in his view.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 12:37 PM   #2073
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is clear they are not a real nation but a subject people. And they clearly deserve it in his view.
"Deserve" has absolutely nothing to do with it. The Palestinians do not have what one could describe as a functioning government, particularly in Gaza where Hamas is in command. They may deserve to have one, but they don't actually have one. And no one on the outside can give them one.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 12:38 PM   #2074
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 13,174
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And no one on the outside can give them one.
Yeah, it would be hard to clear the blockade.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 12:42 PM   #2075
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 50,361
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yeah, it would be hard to clear the blockade.
That really doesn't have anything to do with it.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 12:45 PM   #2076
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 13,174
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That really doesn't have anything to do with it.
My attempt at humor, I suppose it wasn't clear.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 01:27 PM   #2077
Michel H
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"Deserve" has absolutely nothing to do with it. The Palestinians do not have what one could describe as a functioning government, particularly in Gaza where Hamas is in command.
And yet they don't seem to have government shutdowns in Gaza. Go figure.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 01:35 PM   #2078
webfusion
Philosopher
 
webfusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,004
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
So all the Palestinians in the West Bank will move to the Sinai?

Funny.
That is YOUR error, laughing at a proposal that has evaluated and considered every element of what the Palestinians themselves have been clamoring for all along.

Namely, a State of their own, with the ability to absorb some 11-million (at last spurious count) of their brethren now stateless worldwide.
A State that is 'contiguous' and has access to the outside world.
A State that provides them with an Islamic character, and is distinctly separated from the Jewish State of Israel.
A State that is economically viable and does not rely on the continued largesse of UNRWA.
A State with borders properly defined and recognized by Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria.

I suggest you stop guffawing for a moment, and read the proposal.
(In it, there is no mention of "all the Palestinians" moving into this NewState).

Just as there is no effort for "all Jews" to move to Israel.
webfusion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 01:40 PM   #2079
webfusion
Philosopher
 
webfusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,004
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
And yet they don't seem to have government shutdowns in Gaza. Go figure.
Well, except when they are waging war, during which food, electricty, water, are in short supply, and citizens of Gaza cannot leave to go overseas on vacation, or to work in Israel, nor can they use the Internet, or cars, and government-affiliated buildings crumble as Israeli jets target them for total destruction.

But, hey, you seem to know what's what.
(Not)
webfusion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2021, 01:49 PM   #2080
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,918
Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
That is YOUR error, laughing at a proposal that has evaluated and considered every element of what the Palestinians themselves have been clamoring for all along.

Namely, a State of their own, with the ability to absorb some 11-million (at last spurious count) of their brethren now stateless worldwide.
A State that is 'contiguous' and has access to the outside world.
A State that provides them with an Islamic character, and is distinctly separated from the Jewish State of Israel.
A State that is economically viable and does not rely on the continued largesse of UNRWA.
A State with borders properly defined and recognized by Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria.

I suggest you stop guffawing for a moment, and read the proposal.
(In it, there is no mention of "all the Palestinians" moving into this NewState).

Just as there is no effort for "all Jews" to move to Israel.
I still think Jordan fulfills all those conditions and is actually that state.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:50 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.