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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 25th October 2021, 10:11 PM   #2281
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why on earth would anyone want to include extortionists in their society?

Have you even thought this through? The moment someone promises violence until they get what they want is the moment I'm resolved to put them all under the earth, or die trying.
Calling an entire people “extortionists” is really something.

Yeah yeah, I know you don’t think Palestinians are people, but still.
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Old 25th October 2021, 10:16 PM   #2282
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
You people sure love your "solutions", don't you?
And you people sure love to speak on behalf of all Jews. And accuse all of your critics of being Nazis. Which…your country’s long-time leader until recently is buds with far-right garbage like Viktor Orban, Donald “there were many fine people with tiki torches at Charlottesville” Trump, and the purveyors of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia.

So, forgive me for not taking anything you say seriously.
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Old 26th October 2021, 08:56 AM   #2283
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What's that supposed to mean?

Are you saying this is what YOU think the outcome should be? Are you saying that this is the inevitable outcome? Are you saying that this is what Palestinians are demanding?

In any case, it's never going to happen.
It is as ridiculous as the idea that a two state solution could ever be worked out with regards to borders. Clearly de facto apartheid state is the ideal solution, like refusing to call Taiwan a country or you anger china.
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Old 26th October 2021, 09:00 AM   #2284
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Calling an entire people “extortionists” is really something.

<personal attack snipped>
Hamas are extortionists. The people of Gaza voted for Hamas. So that's one group you'd agree we should keep out of our society, anyway.
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Old 26th October 2021, 09:25 AM   #2285
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
And you people sure love to speak on behalf of all Jews. And accuse all of your critics of being Nazis. Which…your country’s long-time leader until recently is buds with far-right garbage like Viktor Orban, Donald “there were many fine people with tiki torches at Charlottesville” Trump, and the purveyors of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia.

So, forgive me for not taking anything you say seriously.
Speaking of someone not to be taken seriously... why do you object to Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia, but you're indifferent to religious extremism among the Palestinians? Do you really think a society with such religious extremism can be safely integrated into a democracy? What on earth makes you think that's even possible?
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Old 1st November 2021, 11:08 AM   #2286
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Speaking of someone not to be taken seriously... why do you object to Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia, but you're indifferent to religious extremism among the Palestinians? Do you really think a society with such religious extremism can be safely integrated into a democracy? What on earth makes you think that's even possible?
They can't. That's why we need to ban Muslims from settling in our country.
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Old 1st November 2021, 06:31 PM   #2287
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
And you people sure love to speak on behalf of all Jews.
I've never spoken on behalf of all Jews.

Quote:
And accuse all of your critics of being Nazis.
I've never accused all of my critics of being Nazis.

Quote:
Which…your country’s...
I'm not an Israeli citizen. But I am a Zionist, so I guess that's ok.

Quote:
...long-time leader until recently is buds with far-right garbage like Viktor Orban, Donald “there were many fine people with tiki torches at Charlottesville” Trump, and the purveyors of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia.
I hate Likud, Netanyahu, Trump, Orban and Saudi Wahhabists. However, it's amusing how the same people who demonize Israel for taking allies where they can find them seem to ignore similar behavior among nations they admire, or at least sympathize with.

Quote:
So, forgive me for not taking anything you say seriously.
I officially forgive you.
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Last edited by trustbutverify; 1st November 2021 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 2nd November 2021, 09:19 AM   #2288
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
They can't. That's why we need to ban Muslims from settling in our country.
Can't tell if serious...

But in any case, there's a significant difference between individuals and societies, and between Muslims in general and religious extremists.
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Old 17th November 2021, 04:39 PM   #2289
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Updated: Civil war 'a real possibility' amongst the Palestinians.
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/pa...anarchy-685254

I've been posting a lot in the Kenosha/Kyle Trial thread, and then I ran across this article today, which offers a real insight into what can easily happen in Wisconsin and elsewhere, as anarchy and street violence runs rampant.
A cautionary tale, to be sure.
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Old 20th November 2021, 07:44 AM   #2290
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There aren't too many phrases that produce a single result on Google.
That's right, 1.

"The essays by Joshua Washington and Messeret Woldemichael Kasabian challenge the flaws of Black Lives Matter’s antagonism against Israel"

I will make an attempt to locate the essays in question, it should make an interesting read. (Yesterday, during street protests in Brooklyn NYC after the Kyle Rittenhouse acquittal, I noted the Palestinian flag flying in the crowd. We are in an age of 'intersectionality' to be sure).
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Old 20th November 2021, 03:47 PM   #2291
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BREAKING NEWS: Palestinian Authority is now deploying their Police (Security Forces) in a concerted and directed military-style campaign, against Islamic revolutionaries (armed groups affiliated with the Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, and Hamas) in the city of Jenin.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/317268

Details sketchy, because media is not embedded with the PA forces.
Developing story...
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Old 21st November 2021, 08:28 AM   #2292
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
BREAKING NEWS: Palestinian Authority is now deploying their Police (Security Forces) in a concerted and directed military-style campaign, against Islamic revolutionaries (armed groups affiliated with the Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, and Hamas) in the city of Jenin.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/317268

Details sketchy, because media is not embedded with the PA forces.
Developing story...
Gets a bit complicated when the good guys start attacking each other, doesn't it?
I wonder if there is a term for the subdivision of Good Guys comprised of 'Good Guys who are only good sometimes, but at other times are murderous fundamentalists and gangsters'? No doubt we'll see it used here soon enough.
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Old 6th December 2021, 09:37 AM   #2293
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Meanwhile, in the face of rioting and other violence that our Security Forces encounter on a regular basis, the Israeli Weapons Industries has developed a new protective suit for Police and para-military agencies.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/iw...on-gear-687979

It's not quite StarWars' StormTroopers -- but it comes damn close!
Here's their promo video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0j9QQBwtTA
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Old 7th December 2021, 07:56 PM   #2294
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Speaking of someone not to be taken seriously... why do you object to Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia, but you're indifferent to religious extremism among the Palestinians? Do you really think a society with such religious extremism can be safely integrated into a democracy? What on earth makes you think that's even possible?
Of course some Christian fundies are just as incompatible with democracy as the Islamic crazies.
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Old 7th December 2021, 07:59 PM   #2295
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
One-state solution with Palestinians fully integrated into it as equals.
Which has about as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell, frankly.
It;s the old "Secular Palestinian State" mantra again.
I say again, the problem with the Anti Zionist is they are either living in a fantasy world or they want the total destruction of Israel.
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Old 7th December 2021, 09:23 PM   #2296
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Of course some Christian fundies are just as incompatible with democracy as the Islamic crazies.
They are not influential. The Islamic radicals are.
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Old 7th December 2021, 09:28 PM   #2297
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They are not influential. The Islamic radicals are.
For now.
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Old 7th December 2021, 09:33 PM   #2298
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which has about as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell, frankly.
It;s the old "Secular Palestinian State" mantra again.
I say again, the problem with the Anti Zionist is they are either living in a fantasy world or they want the total destruction of Israel.
Significantly more of a chance than a snowball's in hell. All it will take is one "anti-Zionist" populist in the White House to start that ball rolling.
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Old 8th December 2021, 09:04 AM   #2299
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
For now.
For quite some time now, with no signs that it will change any time soon.
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Old 8th December 2021, 03:04 PM   #2300
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
For quite some time now, with no signs that it will change any time soon.
I'd say the threat is growing. Let's just hope you're right.
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Old 10th December 2021, 10:09 PM   #2301
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I'd say the threat is growing. Let's just hope you're right.
Your link is garbage. It's centered around this supposed threat of "Christian nationalism", but it doesn't even bother to define what that actually is.

That's a tell. Don't ignore it.

Furthermore, our source explicitly states that Christian nationalism is not Christian fundamentalism, which means that even if we overlook its flaws, it doesn't even support your claim.
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Old 14th December 2021, 06:29 AM   #2302
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which has about as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell, frankly.
It;s the old "Secular Palestinian State" mantra again.
I say again, the problem with the Anti Zionist is they are either living in a fantasy world or they want the total destruction of Israel.
Hey why would we demand a secular Palestinian state when Israel isn't one but is a jewish state?
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Old 14th December 2021, 03:24 PM   #2303
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey why would we demand a secular Palestinian state when Israel isn't one but is a jewish state?
Israel is a secular state. It is set up to accomodate Jewish life, customs, traditions, as well as the religious practices of all others. The 'skew' towards Jewish religious observance is natural due to the thousands-of-years connection of Judaism.

The reason Israel is not interested in a Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadist State (rather than a 'secular' governed one) should be obvious to all.
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Old 14th December 2021, 04:18 PM   #2304
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey why would we demand a secular Palestinian state when Israel isn't one but is a jewish state?
Which rabbinical committee decides who is eligible to campaign for PM? Which Jewish Israelis have been executed for apostasy? Which Jewish female Israelis are required by the government to cover their heads at all times in public? Which Israelis have been arrested or deported for being homosexuals? Which Jewish Israeli women have been arrested for being raped?
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Old 15th December 2021, 06:07 AM   #2305
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“Secular” and “Jewish” are not mutually exclusive.
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Old 15th December 2021, 06:08 AM   #2306
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Originally Posted by Aidoneus View Post
“Secular” and “Jewish” are not mutually exclusive.
Ah so it is ethnically pure jews not jewish as a statement of religion then. It is not a theocracy but an ethnostate.
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Old 15th December 2021, 09:13 AM   #2307
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah so it is ethnically pure jews not jewish as a statement of religion then. It is not a theocracy but an ethnostate.
Rule of ponderingturtle again.

Do please show how Israel is an ethnostate. I'm fairly sure there are non-Jews there, as well as Jews of differing ethnicities. You will, presumably, be able to correct this misapprehension about that, yes?
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Old 15th December 2021, 09:15 AM   #2308
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Rule of ponderingturtle again.

Do please show how Israel is an ethnostate. I'm fairly sure there are non-Jews there, as well as Jews of differing ethnicities. You will, presumably, be able to correct this misapprehension about that, yes?
Then what does being a jewish state mean if it is not religious or ethnic in the definition of jewish?
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Old 15th December 2021, 11:32 AM   #2309
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey why would we demand a secular Palestinian state when Israel isn't one but is a jewish state?
How do you define a "secular state"?
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Old 15th December 2021, 12:19 PM   #2310
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How do you define a "secular state"?
One where atheism is the state religion.
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Old 15th December 2021, 03:06 PM   #2311
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How do you define a "secular state"?
What do you think the United States is?
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Old 15th December 2021, 03:09 PM   #2312
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Rule of ponderingturtle again.

Do please show how Israel is an ethnostate. I'm fairly sure there are non-Jews there, as well as Jews of differing ethnicities. You will, presumably, be able to correct this misapprehension about that, yes?
Oh Israel is not an ethnostate. The presence of non-Jews and Jews of differing ethnicities refutes that. There is plenty of racism against Arabs and ethnic and religious vs secular tensions among Israeli Jews, but certainly neither racism, nor ethnic, religious, or intrareligious tensions are unique to Israel.

The West Bank and the Gaza Strip, on the other hand...I think there are some aging South African activists who might know a thing or two about how to describe the situation in those areas.

Last edited by Allen773; 15th December 2021 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 15th December 2021, 03:19 PM   #2313
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They are not influential. The Islamic radicals are.
Not influential? The Republican Party is utterly dominated by them! They've been dominant within that party for the better part of 40 years.

And no, they (the Republican Party) hate democracy. They want that demented reality TV host to be in power indefinitely-WTF?! They think he won the last election for Christ's sake. Don't get them started on liberals or "socialists"...they start spouting violence real quick. As someone who isn't a right-winger, I certainly don't feel safe around them, particularly since, like the militiamen and terrorists in the Middle East and conflict zones around the world, they do love their guns. What can you say...toxic masculinity and violence is a global, cross-cultural, endemic plague, like COVID.

The idea that Islamic radicals (whatever that means, there's an awful lot of oversimplification and ideological flattening that's contained in that phrase) are the sole or even main driver of what plagues the Muslim world is so offensively stupid that I can only assume you and others who say such things are trolling - or worse, projecting. After all, it's near-impossible for religious bigots, or people bigoted against religions, to notice their own unbelievable levels of arrogance, ignorance, and projection.

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Old 15th December 2021, 03:32 PM   #2314
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
What do you think the United States is?
I was asking ponderingturtle. I do not know how his definition might vary from standard definitions. That seems to happen a lot, and it's a source of confusion when not made explicit. And an example isn't a definition.

Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Not influential? The Republican Party is utterly dominated by them! They've been dominant within that party for the better part of 40 years.


Quote:
And no, they (the Republican Party) hate democracy. They want that demented reality TV host to be in power indefinitely-WTF?!
Trump isn't really religious, in case you haven't noticed. You aren't actually proving what you think you're proving.

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The idea that Islamic radicals (whatever that means, there's an awful lot of oversimplification and ideological flattening that's contained in that phrase) are the sole or even main driver of what plagues the Muslim world is so offensively stupid that I can only assume you and others who say such things are trolling - or worse, projecting.
Small problem: I didn't actually say that. This is a straw man.

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After all, it's near-impossible for religious bigots, or people bigoted against religions, to notice their own unbelievable levels of arrogance, ignorance, and projection.
Mmmm... sweet, sweet irony.
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Old 15th December 2021, 03:35 PM   #2315
Allen773
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^ I get it...you are convinced I'm an anti-Semite or something. Maybe I am bigoted against all religions, or just Jews? Or maybe Jews and Christians both?

Please tell me again the nature of my bigotry. I'm struggling real hard over here, I'm just a simple man who thinks Palestinians deserve full and equal rights and that apartheid is wrong.

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Old 16th December 2021, 02:57 AM   #2316
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Not influential? The Republican Party is utterly dominated by them! They've been dominant within that party for the better part of 40 years.

And no, they (the Republican Party) hate democracy. They want that demented reality TV host to be in power indefinitely-WTF?! They think he won the last election for Christ's sake. Don't get them started on liberals or "socialists"...they start spouting violence real quick. As someone who isn't a right-winger, I certainly don't feel safe around them, particularly since, like the militiamen and terrorists in the Middle East and conflict zones around the world, they do love their guns. What can you say...toxic masculinity and violence is a global, cross-cultural, endemic plague, like COVID.

The idea that Islamic radicals (whatever that means, there's an awful lot of oversimplification and ideological flattening that's contained in that phrase) are the sole or even main driver of what plagues the Muslim world is so offensively stupid that I can only assume you and others who say such things are trolling - or worse, projecting. After all, it's near-impossible for religious bigots, or people bigoted against religions, to notice their own unbelievable levels of arrogance, ignorance, and projection.
I often find novel and startling ideas on this forum, but this one takes that to a whole new level.
The claim that the Republican Party has been dominated by Islamic radicals for the last 40 years is....well, words fail me.

Given the fact that blanket American support for Israel has been a major cause of the prolongation of this conflict, and a mainstay of US foreign policy since.. well, forever, I would very much like to know how you square these two things.
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Old 16th December 2021, 04:28 AM   #2317
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I often find novel and startling ideas on this forum, but this one takes that to a whole new level.
The claim that the Republican Party has been dominated by Islamic radicals for the last 40 years is....well, words fail me.
To poke at a context correction and to poke at the link just barely back further in that tangent - Christian nationalists, not Islamic radicals, is more the claim. To poke at a snippet from that link, to go a little further -

Quote:
In our book, Taking America Back for God: Christian Nationalism in the United States, we use several large, national surveys of Americans collected over the last decade to show that about 20 percent of Americans―those we call “Ambassadors”―strongly embrace Christian nationalism.

As a political theology that co-opts Christian narratives and symbolism, Christian nationalism has its own version of the “elect,” those chosen by God. They are “people like us,” meaning conservative Christian, but also white, natural-born citizens. Moreover, in a prosperous nation, only “the elect” should control the political process while others must be closely scrutinized, discouraged, or even denied access. This ideology is fundamentally a threat to a pluralistic, democratic society.

It is important to note that by “Christian nationalists” we don’t necessarily mean all white theologically conservative Christian groups. In fact, we show in our book that traditional indicators of religious commitment and Christian nationalism oftentimes influence people in opposite directions. The threat generally comes from Christian nationalism, embraced by many conservative Christians as well as non-Christians, rather than from all committed Christians.

Though its modern-day proponents might not be so explicit to speak in terms of “the elect” or chosen citizens, throughout our nation’s history and even before, Christian nationalism has sought privilege for and ascribed moral worth to an “us” (white, natural-born, cultural conservatives) over and against a “them” (everyone else). It baptizes a quest for power and privilege in the public sphere predicated on ensuring only certain Americans feel welcome to fully participate in civic life. This includes voting, the cornerstone of any functioning democracy.

While a very small minority of these Americans might ever end up at an insurrection or be in the position to systematically limit fellow citizens’ access to the vote, our research shows that the anti-democratic impulse that motivated the insurrectionists—and their willingness to resort to violence—and recent lawmakers is pervasive to Christian nationalism.

In national data collected just before the 2020 election, we asked Americans about their views on voter access, supposed voter fraud, and voter disenfranchisement. The strength of the link between Christian nationalism and anti-democratic attitudes is stunning.
The view that Christian nationalism is quite influential in the Republican Party isn't exactly new or radical. Still, as Ziggurat pokes at, Trump is a pretty clear example to demonstrate that they're not "utterly dominated" by Christian nationalism, though, regardless of how strong their influence.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Given the fact that blanket American support for Israel has been a major cause of the prolongation of this conflict, and a mainstay of US foreign policy since.. well, forever, I would very much like to know how you square these two things.
IIRC, Allen773 has been very much in the "Palestinian rights need to be respected a LOT more" camp, to put a friendlier spin on it than others have.
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Old 16th December 2021, 07:36 AM   #2318
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
^ I get it...you are convinced I'm an anti-Semite or something. Maybe I am bigoted against all religions, or just Jews? Or maybe Jews and Christians both?
Your expressed antipathy was towards Christians, not Jews.

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Please tell me again the nature of my bigotry.
The irony is that you have your own religion, and you are a fundamentalist. It's just that your religion has nothing to do with the divine, but with politics. Leftist politics is your faith. And it infects your worldview with irrationalities, like citing Trump as an example of religious fundamentalist domination of the Republican party. That's just delusional.

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I'm struggling real hard over here, I'm just a simple man who thinks Palestinians deserve full and equal rights and that apartheid is wrong.
As far as "Palestinians deserve full and equal rights", that's a platitude. It means nothing on its own.

Spaniards and Frenchmen do not have equal rights, at least not equal to each other, because they live under different governments who have different laws. We may say that all Spaniards have equal rights to all other Spaniards under Spanish law, but nobody really worries that Spanish law and French law are different, and that's OK. So who exactly are Palestinians supposed to be equal to? Other Palestinians? I don't think anyone has a problem with that except possibly certain Palestinians. Or do you mean Israelis? In which case why should they? That's the equivalent of Spaniards having equal rights to Frenchman. Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, and so should not have the same rights as Israeli citizens. Arab Israelis are not Palestinians.

And lastly, what exactly do you think their "full" rights are? The right of return? Nope, sorry, that's off the table. How about the right to vote for their own government? Well, that right has been largely denied to them by their own government. Maybe you mean something else, but I've got no idea what it might be.

tl;dr: If you want to discuss Palestinian rights, you're going to have to spell out exactly what you mean by that.
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Old 16th December 2021, 07:39 AM   #2319
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Given the fact that blanket American support for Israel has been a major cause of the prolongation of this conflict
If you think American support is the reason Israel wasn't destroyed by its enemies, I can see the logic. Otherwise... nope. That's just delusional.
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Old 16th December 2021, 08:24 AM   #2320
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you think American support is the reason Israel wasn't destroyed by its enemies, I can see the logic. Otherwise... nope. That's just delusional.
American support is far more critical for allowing Israel to remain a belligerent apartheid state without being sanctioned by the UN.
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