IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags acupuncture

Reply
Old 12th May 2021, 06:00 PM   #1
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,252
My Doctor Prescribed Accupuncture For My Tendinitis

I told him I didn't want it but he keeps persisiting. I finally agreed and had an appointment today, but I cancelled it.

This is a workers comp insurance claim. He has his own floor of the hospital (Occupational Therapy) with the physical therapists, and an accupuncturist as well.

I told him I do not want to be treated for pain, meaning if something isn't helping my condition then I don't want it. I am also highly skeptical of accupuncture. Actually I think it's bull pucky. Obviously, I posted this in the Paranormal forum.

I did some quick research and see some doctors say it can help. Doesn't mean squat to me. I've had some bad doctors in my life.

So what say you all? I think accupuncture is mostly considered woo, especially here at the forum. But has anything changed in recent years?

His therapists mention it too. I feel like I'm getting a sell job, like "Hey we need to get the witch doctor some appointments to validate his or her existence here". I don't want to contribute to that if it's 100% BS.

Edit to add:
I see someuse electric current in conjunction with the needles to "speed up recovery"
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by mgidm86; 12th May 2021 at 06:05 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:03 PM   #2
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I told him I didn't want it but he keeps persisiting.
Tell him you don't want quack medecine and ask for a second opinion if possible. If that's not possible, suggest an exorcism or bloodletting instead.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:06 PM   #3
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 11,217
Ask for some reiki instead as you have a phobia of needles. If he says reiki is bull-puckey, ask him why he thinks acupuncture is any different. If he can't say why and won't stop pushing acupuncture regardless, find another doctor.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:09 PM   #4
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 75,048
"Instead could you prescribe something that is actually better than a placebo?"
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:13 PM   #5
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,252
Haha!

I am getting what I want from him though otherwise, and I have pushed for some of it. MRI for one, I had to bug him a little. And he's a cool guy overall.

He asked one day if I was anti-vax and I said hell no, and we had a great conversation after that.

I don't wanna say he's pushing it super duper hard, but he's mentioned it more than once as an option. Otherwise he seems "normal". I feel I'm getting good care.

I told him I am a skeptic and don't believe in it. I went along with it as a "what the heck" thing but when I woke up today I decided not to go.

I've told him I do not want pain relief, I only want to improve my condition as much as possible.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by mgidm86; 12th May 2021 at 06:17 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:19 PM   #6
p0lka
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
Posts: 2,636
If it's free then it's an opportunity to see if it actually works, curiosity would drag me in..
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:24 PM   #7
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,252
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
If it's free then it's an opportunity to see if it actually works, curiosity would drag me in..

It almost did today but I want more information. Today was to be an "assessment" I realized, and I just don't have time for multiple appointments if it's BS.

Is Johns-Hopkins any kind of reliable source?

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...on/acupuncture

I can reschedule too.

I do my stretches and exercises, I use ice and heat, depending. How would I even know it's helping?
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by mgidm86; 12th May 2021 at 06:26 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:29 PM   #8
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,252
After further reading I'm just not going to do it. "No scientific basis" is enough for me, and that is what I'm seeing amongst all the other claims.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:30 PM   #9
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,448
What a loon! Why doesn't he go back to medical school undergrad biology.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:33 PM   #10
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,252
Thing is the workers comp insurance is going to pay for it. This is in a Kaiser hospital (huge US provider), so not some back street doctor.

I was surprised at that. Like where's the Crystal Therapy room? Why is accupuncture gaining legitimacy in this way?
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:42 PM   #11
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,798
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
If it's free then it's an opportunity to see if it actually works, curiosity would drag me in..
No it isn't.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:53 PM   #12
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,798
Ask the guy for supporting RCT research supporting the benefits with your particular problem.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 06:55 PM   #13
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,252
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No it isn't.

Yep. My Mom has seen the same chiropractor for decades. All these years and you're still not better? In fact, nothing is broken that needs fixing! "I just need an adjustment"

Ya to your wallet.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 07:05 PM   #14
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,252
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Ask the guy for supporting RCT research supporting the benefits with your particular problem.

Will do! I will definitely ask him for evidence (RTC = Randomized Controlled Trials, I gather?).

Weird thing is (to me) they still haven't done imaging. He didn't want to at all, but I pushed. Maybe it doesn't always show anything. Probably just expensive.

Shouldn't that come first? He said, "Sometimes people see too much on an MRI and want everything fixed". Ummm okaaaay. I could see that, kinda maybe. One of his therapists said the same when I told her he said that. Bull pucky, I say.

Auto mechanic is the oppoite - they wanna fix everything! Difference? They get paid cash.

Now the other day he said, "We'll do the Accupuncture, then get you that MRI"

I kinda felt like I had to do the Accu, which is really why I agreed (to get the MRI). Then I thought, if that's the case he'll get in a lot of trouble, especially holding up actual treatment for woo.

I could be totally wwrong on that though. We'll see!

I feel like I have to say the right thing to get what I want with this workers comp thing. Like they are trying to trap me. Really not something I want to worry about when seeking medical care.

ETA:
And thank you to everyone for the responses. This is important to me and this tendinitis is making my life very difficult.

He asked me more than once, "Are you looking for permanent disability?"

"What? NO!!! I want to get better! I'll PAY YOU if you can do that, insurance be damned!"

Frickin weird overall experience.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by mgidm86; 12th May 2021 at 07:08 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 07:11 PM   #15
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,252
I also thought accupuncture did something to the nerves (pressure?). I see that it is still based on Qi. Not even pretending it's medicine.

From my hospital website:

https://thrive.kaiserpermanente.org/...s/acupuncture/

Quote:
Acupuncture is a form of Chinese medicine that has been practiced for centuries. It’s based on the theory that energy, called Qi(say “chee”), flows through and around your body along pathways called meridians.

Acupuncture is done by inserting very thin sterile acupuncture needles into the skin/muscle at certain points on your body. This is done to influence the energy flow.

Seriously? Wow.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by mgidm86; 12th May 2021 at 07:24 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 07:46 PM   #16
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,798
RTC, yes, randomized controlled trials.

Kaiser, and in this area its predecessor Group Health, have some alt-med for a couple reasons. 1) patients bug them for it and it is in essence caving to marketing. And 2) states like WA have legislators influenced by the squeaky woo-wheels that harass them. They passed a law here requiring health insurers to cover some alt med.


Tendonitis is a pretty straight forward diagnosis. Not sure MRIs are routinely ordered for diagnosis. Are you not improving with resting the tendon?

Generally rest and anti-inflammatories are the treatment of choice. Once the area has healed you next go to prevention which involves ergonomics and in the case of feet, SuperFeet inserts. Not cheap but they work instantly.

And those armbands that take the pressure off the inflamed tendon work well.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 12th May 2021 at 07:57 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 07:49 PM   #17
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21,882
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I also thought accupuncture did something to the nerves (pressure?). I see that it is still based on Qi. Not even pretending it's medicine.

From my hospital website:

https://thrive.kaiserpermanente.org/...s/acupuncture/




Seriously? Wow.
Meanwhile over at https://www.health.harvard.edu/healt...th-acupuncture

Quote:
Traditional Chinese acupuncture involves the insertion of extremely fine needles into the skin at specific "acupoints." This may relieve pain by releasing endorphins, the body's natural pain-killing chemicals, and by affecting the part of the brain that governs serotonin, a brain chemical involved with mood.
(Highlighting mine.)

and
Quote:
Does acupuncture really work to quell pain? The evidence is mixed, with some studies showing that acupuncture relieves pain and others showing that it works no better than "sham" acupuncture (procedures designed to mimic acupuncture but to have no real effect, much like a placebo, or "sugar pill," used in medication studies). One of the problems with deciphering these results is that most acupuncture studies have been small. The design of "sham" acupuncture techniques has also varied widely, which complicates any comparison. It's also possible that acupuncture works for some people and not others.
Maybe somewhat closer to the truth.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 07:59 PM   #18
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,798
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Meanwhile over at https://www.health.harvard.edu/healt...th-acupuncture

(Highlighting mine.)

and

Maybe somewhat closer to the truth.
I'm pretty sure what is mixed is the quality of the studies.

If it's all about releasing endorphins why do said 'points' matter?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 08:50 PM   #19
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,252
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
RTC, yes, randomized controlled trials.

Kaiser, and in this area its predecessor Group Health, have some alt-med for a couple reasons. 1) patients bug them for it and it is in essence caving to marketing. And 2) states like WA have legislators influenced by the squeaky woo-wheels that harass them. They passed a law here requiring health insurers to cover some alt med.


Tendonitis is a pretty straight forward diagnosis. Not sure MRIs are routinely ordered for diagnosis. Are you not improving with resting the tendon?

Generally rest and anti-inflammatories are the treatment of choice. Once the area has healed you next go to prevention which involves ergonomics and in the case of feet, SuperFeet inserts. Not cheap but they work instantly.

And those armbands that take the pressure off the inflamed tendon work well.

Yes I believe he also said an MRI isn't always necesary, but I've had this for quite awhile, moreso carpal tunnel. And it's in both arms. It's probably mainly from computer use and I've used both hands with a mouse for decades.

One radiologist a few years ago said my ulna (I think) is a bit long and could be pressuring nerves in the wrist. Another doctor, and some research, makes me question this - short version. But I dunno I seem to have some weird issues.

So I thought an MRI might help. But what do I know? He agreed to do it so <shrug> can't hurt I guess.

I had a nerve conductivity test a few years ago, which was pretty uncomfortable but fascinating, and they diagnosed it as carpal with some tendinitis, as I recall.

The carpal has been around a long time, tendinitis seems a lot newer.

It's very frustrating.

Oh since I stopped doing my repetitive job, the more acute(?) pain is gone. I mean the new pain associated with that job. Now the longer term underlying condition, if you will, is what I'm hoping I can do something about.

I want to get as much care as I can through this workers comp thing, then go to my normal provider. And it was my boss's idea to do workers comp. I didn't come to him, but that's another story.

Thank you for all the advice and information, I really appreciate it.

ETA:
I do the armbands, sleep with a wrist brace, and I had my doctor and therapists approve them. I'm trying to do everything right, and limit my computer use at home too. So I should stop typing for a bit
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by mgidm86; 12th May 2021 at 08:57 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 08:50 PM   #20
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30,932
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Why is accupuncture gaining legitimacy in this way?
Because doctors would rather prescribe something than nothing, and acupuncture at least looks like a medical treatment.

The NZ system of healthcare for injuries means that everything is paid for through central government, and acupuncture gets a sizable portion of a very large budget. $44 million in the year to June 2019.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 09:04 PM   #21
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,252
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Because doctors would rather prescribe something than nothing, and acupuncture at least looks like a medical treatment.

The NZ system of healthcare for injuries means that everything is paid for through central government, and acupuncture gets a sizable portion of a very large budget. $44 million in the year to June 2019.


It's gaining on chiro.

More info on Kaiser website (plus side effects, including possible nerve damage that could be temporary, yikes!)

https://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.or...ng_Healthy.xml
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by mgidm86; 12th May 2021 at 09:16 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 09:24 PM   #22
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 75,048
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Because doctors would rather prescribe something than nothing, and acupuncture at least looks like a medical treatment.
It's also that unless you look pretty deeply into it, it can appear that acupuncture does have legitimate science backing it. You can find plenty of academic papers showing its efficacy. Look a little further, though, and you can see that they're all out of China, where acupuncture and TCM in general is treated as a matter of nationalistic pride by the government. It's easy to miss the conflict of interest, especially if you're a busy physician with limited time to keep appraised of the research in your own field, let alone fields you're less familiar with.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 11:38 PM   #23
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,252
Talked to my Dad tonight about this. He suggests going along with the program to get what I want, which is what I initially did. I said if I have to agree to woo to get further treatment then I'll find another doctor and report this one.

At one point he says "you know how so many people are sheeple"

Yes Dad, thanks for reminding me that you're one of them since you still think the election was probably stolen. You actually have negative evidence for that one!!!

We then had a nice talk about critical thinking.

I need a beer, STAT!
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 12:06 AM   #24
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,798
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Talked to my Dad tonight about this. He suggests going along with the program to get what I want, which is what I initially did. I said if I have to agree to woo to get further treatment then I'll find another doctor and report this one.

At one point he says "you know how so many people are sheeple"

Yes Dad, thanks for reminding me that you're one of them since you still think the election was probably stolen. You actually have negative evidence for that one!!!

We then had a nice talk about critical thinking.

I need a beer, STAT!
Mixed reviews, not bad. I'll toast my wine to your beer.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 01:54 AM   #25
Carrot Flower King
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 1,954
Have a look on Science-Based Medicine, Orac's site (Respectful Insolence) or Edzard Ernst's site: they all have numerous pieces on acupuncture.

Acupuncture is the purest manure of the bovine, which requires belief in various things which cannot be shown to exist - meridians and chi/qi energy to start with.

No decent studies have shown anything beyond placebo; those which do usually come out of China and have many problems in how they are conducted.

Anyone ever tries recommending it to me will rapidly be reported to their relevant professional regulatory bodies and I will refuse to see them again.

As for tendonitis: anti-inflammatories (topical or oral) can help; use of heat or cold also; physio may be required - https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/tendonitis/
Carrot Flower King is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 02:05 AM   #26
Carrot Flower King
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 1,954
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/

https://respectfulinsolence.com/

https://edzardernst.com/

Search for acupuncture on any of them for some takedowns of varying degrees ofinsolence, but always backed with full scientific/medical references and explanations. Orac has done a couple of decent summaries of the history of acupuncture, from which the tl;dr take home is that what is practiced now is not an ancient healing technique at all.

Last edited by Carrot Flower King; 13th May 2021 at 02:07 AM.
Carrot Flower King is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 05:41 AM   #27
Armitage72
Philosopher
 
Armitage72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 6,564
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Yep. My Mom has seen the same chiropractor for decades. All these years and you're still not better? In fact, nothing is broken that needs fixing! "I just need an adjustment"

Ya to your wallet.


My mother worked in a chiropractor's office for a number of years before she retired. Patients would come in for an adjustment to relieve pain, and it would work, but they had to keep coming back or the pain would return. That tells me he was treating the symptoms without touching the actual problem.



Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Acupuncture is the purest manure of the bovine, which requires belief in various things which cannot be shown to exist - meridians and chi/qi energy to start with.

I remember reading at one point that it dates back to when the religious beliefs of physicians prohibited them from cutting open bodies, so the knowledge of living internal anatomy was limited. I may be conflating it with the episode of MASH that had three local doctors who were Buddhists, had never cut open a human body, and were absolutely fascinated watching Charles perform surgery.
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 08:25 AM   #28
Joe Random
Master Poster
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,928
A couple of years ago I had a severe, long-lasting case of tendonitis. The regular ortho docs were of no help - they'd haul me in every four weeks or so, poke at me, and say "yep, still there". And apparently cortisone shots were ruled out for some reason. In desperation I asked my regular PCP if she had any recommendations and she referred me to an acupuncturist. When I said I'd prefer something evidence-based she assured me this particular person was and that it was a very grounded-in-reality practice. I was at my wits end (it was keeping me from being able to fence at all) so I sucked it up and made an appointment. When I got there I saw materials in his office claiming to be able to fix everything from headaches to infertility and my heart sank. I was already there so I went through with the appointment anyway, hoping against hope that there would be some actual physiological improvement. Some warm tingling where he stuck me was the extent of it, and I politely declined to make any follow up appointments.

I'd have even taken some small comfort in a placebo effect, but sticking me with needles didn't even give me that. I spent 9 months doing rehab at an actual, legit physical therapy facility and that slowly (painfully) brought things under control. Thankfully my PCP retired around the same time so I had the perfect excuse to find a new one.
Joe Random is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 08:33 AM   #29
Carrot Flower King
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 1,954
Re #27:

And how long ago is it since Harvey did his pioneering work on anatomy, especially circulation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Harvey

What about Burke and Hare murdering folk in the 1820s to provide corpses for dissection?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Hare_murders

Or the Resurrection Men back in the early 19th century?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_snatching

And note the mention of the Anatomy Act of 1832 in the above.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomy_Act_1832

It has been hundreds of years since any religious compunction agin dissection applied here. I mean, the first edition of Gray's Anatomy was published in 1858.

Last edited by Carrot Flower King; 13th May 2021 at 08:34 AM.
Carrot Flower King is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 09:03 AM   #30
xjx388
Moderator
Moderator
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,187
The fact that so many insurance policies will pay for accupuncture is exactly why doctors offer it. Even Medicare covers it for chronic low-back pain and reimburses about $30 a session for it.

They cover it mainly because it's much cheaper than more invasive treatments. If they can pay $360 for 12 sessions of useless needles and then the patient does not need any other treatment (not because the accupuncture worked, but because they just naturally got better) then I guess they see it as more cost-effective than eliminating payment for accupuncture and doctors going right to the more expensive treatments. It's a practical consideration.

There's also pressure from patients who don't want the more invasive treatments or want an alternative to taking medicines. Doctors kind of go, "It can't hurt and the insurance will cover it, so why not?"
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 09:30 AM   #31
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 23,981
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The fact that so many insurance policies will pay for accupuncture is exactly why doctors offer it. Even Medicare covers it for chronic low-back pain and reimburses about $30 a session for it.

They cover it mainly because it's much cheaper than more invasive treatments. If they can pay $360 for 12 sessions of useless needles and then the patient does not need any other treatment (not because the accupuncture worked, but because they just naturally got better) then I guess they see it as more cost-effective than eliminating payment for accupuncture and doctors going right to the more expensive treatments. It's a practical consideration.

There's also pressure from patients who don't want the more invasive treatments or want an alternative to taking medicines. Doctors kind of go, "It can't hurt and the insurance will cover it, so why not?"
God, look at the new mod sticking up for alt-med woo! This place is going to hell in a hand basket.

/s

--------

My doc said "tendonitis, don't use that arm for six weeks and it will be good." I mentioned that I actually need to use it, some. Her response was "the more you use it the longer it will take to heal, use a band to remind yourself not to use it and relieve some of the pain."

It's been about 6 weeks and I've tried not to use it too much. Still hurts sometimes, but it is slowly getting better. I use the band when I know I'm gong to be using it so that I focus on not using it too much, if that makes any sense.

I would go bonkers if it was chronic and not getting better.

I understand you not wanting to use painkillers, but a lot of them are anti inflammatory, which may actually help you to heal. Also, reducing the pain reduces your reactions to the pain, such as tensing up or wincing.

I have a friend who couldn't recover from a surgery until he finally took the damn pain killers. He was back in the hospital twice before he admitted he wasn't taking them. Once he took them he was better in just a few days.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 09:45 AM   #32
Carrot Flower King
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 1,954
That's a good point, Dr Keith, the differentiation between anti-inflammatories and pain killers per se.

Tendonitis is an inflammatory condition first and pain is secondary to that. Something like ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory first and happens to reduce pain because of that.

Ibuprofen would be the first suggested anti-inflammatory here, whether oral or topical, as it works most of the time.

Personally I have no issue with taking pain killers per se: when my left foot was so badly gouted (yay, let's hear it for side-fx of ACE inhibitors and furosemide!) that I could not weight bear taking codeine gave me rapid relief.
Carrot Flower King is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 09:51 AM   #33
Armitage72
Philosopher
 
Armitage72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 6,564
Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Re #27:

And how long ago is it since Harvey did his pioneering work on anatomy, especially circulation?

What about Burke and Hare murdering folk in the 1820s to provide corpses for dissection?

Or the Resurrection Men back in the early 19th century?

And note the mention of the Anatomy Act of 1832 in the above.

It has been hundreds of years since any religious compunction agin dissection applied here. I mean, the first edition of Gray's Anatomy was published in 1858.

I was thinking more 100 BC, which Wikipedia says is the approximate date of the oldest known historical record of acupuncture. The people in question were prohibited from cutting people open, so they theorized channels of energy flowing through the body that could be manipulated with needles. The theory remained even after the reason for it was gone. As I said, I could be misremembering the religious aspect.

Last edited by Armitage72; 13th May 2021 at 09:53 AM.
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 10:04 AM   #34
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 23,981
Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Personally I have no issue with taking pain killers per se: when my left foot was so badly gouted (yay, let's hear it for side-fx of ACE inhibitors and furosemide!) that I could not weight bear taking codeine gave me rapid relief.
Gout will cure you of any fears of pain killer addiction. Crippling addiction sounds down right gleeful as compared to living with that ******* pain even one more minute.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 10:23 AM   #35
Armitage72
Philosopher
 
Armitage72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 6,564
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Gout will cure you of any fears of pain killer addiction. Crippling addiction sounds down right gleeful as compared to living with that ******* pain even one more minute.

I remember an episode of a medical drama in which the patient had what turned out to be gout in his hand. At one point, he seriously told the doctor that, if he had a knife or axe available, cutting off his own hand would have been preferable to the pain he was having.
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 10:34 AM   #36
Carrot Flower King
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 1,954
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I remember an episode of a medical drama in which the patient had what turned out to be gout in his hand. At one point, he seriously told the doctor that, if he had a knife or axe available, cutting off his own hand would have been preferable to the pain he was having.
When I had sciatica for the first time if I could have got to the kitchen to the knife block, which contains several large, sharp knives, I would have cut my right leg off at the neck of femur...
Carrot Flower King is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 10:40 AM   #37
Carrot Flower King
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 1,954
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I was thinking more 100 BC, which Wikipedia says is the approximate date of the oldest known historical record of acupuncture. The people in question were prohibited from cutting people open, so they theorized channels of energy flowing through the body that could be manipulated with needles. The theory remained even after the reason for it was gone. As I said, I could be misremembering the religious aspect.
OK, but there is no excuse for any of that in Europe (and then on to Murica) since Harvey's time, i.e. several hundred years, and certainly not since the early decades of the 19th century.

And, as I mentioned, Orac has given the supposed history of acupuncture a couple of good goings over and a load of it is not what current exponents claim.

And as for why US-ian insurance companies will pay for it...What is this new fangled "evidence-based medicine" or "science-based medicine"?
Carrot Flower King is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 10:43 AM   #38
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 23,981
Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
And as for why US-ian insurance companies will pay for it...What is this new fangled "evidence-based medicine" or "science-based medicine"?
Low cost way to have the patient wait and see if it gets better, but with added customer service, as laid out by xjx388.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 10:51 AM   #39
Carrot Flower King
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 1,954
^ Yeah, as implied in my sarcastic question, no evidence nor science involved, no treatment, just con jobbery.
Carrot Flower King is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 11:47 AM   #40
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 23,981
Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
^ Yeah, as implied in my sarcastic question, no evidence nor science involved, no treatment, just con jobbery.
I do think it is a problem, but I can see how it makes sense from the insurers point of view. It is a low cost way to get people to wait before actually moving to more expensive treatments without having to deal with "but you have to do SOMETHING" demands when the best treatment is to actually not do anything, at first. This is a minor con-job to get the patient to follow actual science based advice. So, the medical treatment plan is science based: waiting is often the best treatment plan.

I see the problem as legitimizing a long unproven treatment, despite hundreds of years of study. Even if it is cheap, there is no reason to perpetuate it. Come up with something that could be actually useful. Maybe meditation?
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:03 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.