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Old 13th May 2021, 11:58 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I do think it is a problem, but I can see how it makes sense from the insurers point of view. It is a low cost way to get people to wait before actually moving to more expensive treatments without having to deal with "but you have to do SOMETHING" demands when the best treatment is to actually not do anything, at first. This is a minor con-job to get the patient to follow actual science based advice. So, the medical treatment plan is science based: waiting is often the best treatment plan.

I see the problem as legitimizing a long unproven treatment, despite hundreds of years of study. Even if it is cheap, there is no reason to perpetuate it. Come up with something that could be actually useful. Maybe meditation?
I don't know about that. Here in WA State it was believers lobbying the legislators who passed a law mandating insurers cover it.

Perhaps we could hear about TX or any other state, do third party payers cover it?
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Old 13th May 2021, 12:11 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I do think it is a problem, but I can see how it makes sense from the insurers point of view. It is a low cost way to get people to wait before actually moving to more expensive treatments without having to deal with "but you have to do SOMETHING" demands when the best treatment is to actually not do anything, at first. This is a minor con-job to get the patient to follow actual science based advice. So, the medical treatment plan is science based: waiting is often the best treatment plan.

I see the problem as legitimizing a long unproven treatment, despite hundreds of years of study. Even if it is cheap, there is no reason to perpetuate it. Come up with something that could be actually useful. Maybe meditation?

Right. I wasnít trying to argue that acupuncture is legit, just trying to explain the reasons why docs might go ahead and do it.

I know this might shock some people, but not everything in medicine is 100% solidly backed by science. That may be the ideal, but itís hard to do in practice. Like you mentioned, patient demands are a factor. Antibiotics are an excellent example. Yes, doctors should absolutely put their foot down and say, ďNo, I wonít prescribe an antibiotic for your cold.Ē But if they donít, the doctor down the street will and they lose a patient. Most doctors are going to cave and give something like amoxicillin just to please and retain the patient.

Similarly, if doctors donít embrace some alt-med, especially the ones that are covered by a patientís insurance plan, another doctor will.

Iím not at all saying that any of this is a good thing or the way it should be. Itís just the way it is.
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Old 13th May 2021, 12:16 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't know about that. Here in WA State it was believers lobbying the legislators who passed a law mandating insurers cover it.

Perhaps we could hear about TX or any other state, do third party payers cover it?
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
<really good stuff which agreed with me snipped>
Similarly, if doctors donít embrace some alt-med, especially the ones that are covered by a patientís insurance plan, another doctor will.

Iím not at all saying that any of this is a good thing or the way it should be. Itís just the way it is.
I had no idea how to respond to SG, but do you find it common for plans to cover alt-med treatments?
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Old 13th May 2021, 02:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I had no idea how to respond to SG, but do you find it common for plans to cover alt-med treatments?
Accupuncture is covered for limited conditions by workers comp and Medicare.
I've reviewed some policies by commercial insurance plans and they cover for limited conditions as well. But what I've found is that coverage and the conditions covered vary by the plan - BCBS covers for migranes only. Here's Aetna's policy:

Quote:
Note: Some Aetna plans limit coverage of acupuncture to when it is used in a lieu [sic] of other anesthesia for a surgical or dental procedure covered under the health benefits plan, and the health care provider administering it is a legally qualified physician practicing within the scope of his/her license. Some other plans may extend coverage of acupuncture for medically necessary indications, but only when administered by a health care provider who is a legally qualified physician practicing within the scope of his/her license. Please check benefit plan descriptions for details.

Aetna considers needle acupuncture (manual or electroacupuncture) medically necessary for any of the following indications:

Chronic (minimum 12 weeks duration) neck pain; or
Chronic (minimum 12 weeks duration) headache; or
Low back pain; or
Nausea of pregnancy; or
Pain from osteoarthritis of the knee or hip (adjunctive therapy); or
Post-operative and chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting; or
Post-operative dental pain; or
Temporomandibular disorders (TMD).
Further, Texas does allow accupunturists to bill visit codes and certain other physical therapy procedures, which seems rather silly to me. I don't know if insurances will credential them for billing if they don't work for a doctor, though.
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Old 13th May 2021, 03:21 PM   #45
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I'll take anti-inflammatories. I don't like pain killers because I'm afraid of injuring it worse. Maybe I'm wrong. I have no problem with them otherwise, not worried of addiction. If they can help then I'll use them.

I'm now worried that my doctor may forego other options in favor of acupuncture so I will see about getting a different doctor. Then again I may have received all I'm going to get from this insurance claim. May as well go back to my primary.

The idea that providers are offering this as a way to give insurance a cheaper alternative just to placate patients - that is scary. They are legitimizing a practice that helps nobody. What's next?

As for not using your arm to help it heal, my therapists said that the opposite is true and that you do need to use it, at least to some degree, in order for it to heal. But gee, am I to believe that after the acupuncture thing?

I have to do my own research and make sure I'm getting proper care. I'm used to doing that in other areas (auto repair). These days, I tell the doctor my symptoms, they type it into a computer, and they read me the results. That's the care I'm used to these days and not much else.

Which, sadly, is why I'm here. Thanks again for all the information. It's good to be able to get multiple opinions quickly from people that I have at least some faith in. Oops, I said faith. Faith that was earned through evidence!
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Old 13th May 2021, 03:34 PM   #46
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Couple of things. This doc is not going to get in "trouble" if you "report" him. He's undoubtedly following a protocol that is accepted practice for workman's comp claims. If you tell your boss that it hurts to do your job, it makes sense for the boss to suggest you file a workman's comp claim. They are covering their asses (and possibly, they also care about you). It's a sort of body armor for them: If in fact it's the job causing the pain, they need to make sure they have addressed the complaint. "Oh, we blew it off" won't look good if you decide to sue your employer.

You are involved in a process that, while not totally out of your hands, is following an acceptable course of action that shows that your employers are addressing the complaint, even if they can't fix it.

I'm happy to see that you have not posted anymore today. That's because ... surely someone has recommended rest? If they prescribe a course of anti-inflammatories (that you're not allergic to) it's probably a good idea to take them. Sometimes inflammation feeds on itself and quieting down those areas can help (this is not a very scientific way to put it, I know). Oral diclofenac is Rx; there is also a cream (Voltaren) which is over-the-counter. When they work, they work very well. Oral diclofenac was more effective for me for frozen shoulder than ibuprofen, but the ibuprofen also helped some.

I had a good experience with acupuncture, a long time ago. Possibly just because I liked the feeling of being cared for by a nice young man. Also, because the needles stayed in one-half hour, it was boring, so I spent the time doing a 30-minute meditation so who knows, maybe that helped. I was on a course of several sessions for smoking cessation. One time a needle went in and I experienced what felt like a serious electric shock. Something real happened, but it's not what the acupuncturist was going for.
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Old 13th May 2021, 04:16 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
As for not using your arm to help it heal, my therapists said that the opposite is true and that you do need to use it, at least to some degree, in order for it to heal.
This is tricky. You don't want to aggravate the injury, but you also don't want to let your muscles atrophy and your joints get stiff. So, maybe exercise, but not repeating the same motions that caused the injury. Physical therapy may be prescribed.

You asked if Johns Hopkins is a legit source. Yes, it is.

So, is acupuncture really helpful, or does it just activate the placebo effect? I think the placebo effect is useful, as long as it isn't preventing someone from getting a much more effective treatment.
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Old 13th May 2021, 04:18 PM   #48
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Best case scenario, he thinks its psycho-somatic. Worst case, he thinks it works.
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Old 13th May 2021, 05:38 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I told him I didn't want it but he keeps persisiting. I finally agreed and had an appointment today, but I cancelled it.

This is a workers comp insurance claim. He has his own floor of the hospital (Occupational Therapy) with the physical therapists, and an accupuncturist as well.

I told him I do not want to be treated for pain, meaning if something isn't helping my condition then I don't want it. I am also highly skeptical of accupuncture. Actually I think it's bull pucky. Obviously, I posted this in the Paranormal forum.

I did some quick research and see some doctors say it can help. Doesn't mean squat to me. I've had some bad doctors in my life.

So what say you all? I think accupuncture is mostly considered woo, especially here at the forum. But has anything changed in recent years?

His therapists mention it too. I feel like I'm getting a sell job, like "Hey we need to get the witch doctor some appointments to validate his or her existence here". I don't want to contribute to that if it's 100% BS.

Edit to add:
I see someuse electric current in conjunction with the needles to "speed up recovery"

I went to an acupuncturist many years ago on the recommendation of a friend.

In Australia acupuncture is one of many types of treatment the alternative medicine people take on. It's common to see a practice listed as that of a naturopath, displaying an array of different treatment types available. As long as it is alternative it's good.

The practitioner told me about the treatment I would receive. So many needles in different places of my body including my hands - given the condition I had was a nose complaint I thought this odd.

I asked him what my chances of recovery were, to which he replied about 50%. I asked him to describe for me the mechanism of how the treatment worked and he confessed to not knowing. I walked out of there.

Be interested to know what your experience is if you see one of these guys. If you encounter then same vagueness of knowledge I did, the treatment you are given may have an equal chance of clearing up Tinea as Tendinitis.
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Old 13th May 2021, 09:19 PM   #50
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Perhaps the doctor is prescribing it as a treatment that might "work" as a placebo.

Some people are "cured" by acupuncture even when acupuncture has no actual mechanism to cure.

I guess the doctor is being thorough and trying everything before breaking out the big guns (eg MRI, more expensive things).
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Old 13th May 2021, 11:32 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Perhaps the doctor is prescribing it as a treatment that might "work" as a placebo.

Some people are "cured" by acupuncture even when acupuncture has no actual mechanism to cure.

I guess the doctor is being thorough and trying everything before breaking out the big guns (eg MRI, more expensive things).
Some people report improvement after receiving placebo treatment, but when outcomes are objectively measured, they haven't improved at all.
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Old 14th May 2021, 01:20 AM   #52
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I had electroacupuncture (on a doctor's recommendation) for back muscle spasms, which would hapen a few times a day. This was after trying a number of other therapies including massage and voltaren - both gel rubs and injections, which worked to reduce the pain, but didn't stop the spasms from happening.

The electroacupuncture stopped the spasms after a few sessions (four IIRC) and I haven't had any since... that was a few years ago now.

Like the OP, I think acupuncture is woo woo bunkum, but I can see how electrically stimulating muscles might actually do something, after all muscles do respond to electrical stimulus
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Old 14th May 2021, 01:34 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Some people report improvement after receiving placebo treatment, but when outcomes are objectively measured, they haven't improved at all.
Another NIH study:

Both Real and ”Sham” Acupuncture Relieve Knee Pain

I can't think how a double-blind study on acupuncture would be feasible. The clinician knows if they have been trained in acupuncture. I suppose you could find clinicians completely ignorant of acupuncture, then train one group to give "real" acupuncture and the other to give "sham" acupuncture, but don't tell them which is which.

The study you cited measures one thing - how much air can be expelled from the lungs in one second. The subjective part was, the placebo patients found their symptoms reduced. (Not as much as the albuterol group, though).

I can't quite tease out the difference between feeling better and just thinking you feel better. I can see the value of "this might help, try it" being thrown into the mix, but not at the expense of providing treatment with better evidential underpinning. If you have a chronic condition that can't be cured, and meditation or walking on the beach or whatever makes you feel better, IMO it can be a valid component of a treatment plan.

The study cited also said the confidence of the clinician makes a difference. "I think this will work for you" had slightly better results than "It really depends on the patient."

Something real is happening neurologically if a patient feels better. How could it be otherwise?

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Old 14th May 2021, 02:05 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Another NIH study:

Both Real and ĒShamĒ Acupuncture Relieve Knee Pain

I can't think how a double-blind study on acupuncture would be feasible. The clinician knows if they have been trained in acupuncture. I suppose you could find clinicians completely ignorant of acupuncture, then train one group to give "real" acupuncture and the other to give "sham" acupuncture, but don't tell them which is which.

The study you cited measures one thing - how much air can be expelled from the lungs in one second. The subjective part was, the placebo patients found their symptoms reduced. (Not as much as the albuterol group, though). Researchers also had scripts to follow.

I can't quite tease out the difference between feeling better and just thinking you feel better. I can see the value of "this might help, try it" being thrown into the mix, but not at the expense of providing treatment with better evidential underpinning. If you have a chronic condition that can't be cured, and meditation or walking on the beach or whatever makes you feel better, IMO it can be a valid component of a treatment plan.
Yes, but money changes everything. If doctors can get paid for providing an accupuncture treatment, then a lot of them will offer accupuncture treatments. Especially if there is little to no cost to the patient. They will do that because the knee injection that will actually work has a lot of hurdles to cross -pre-authorization, cost to patient, risk of the procedure, etc.

It's hard for me to necessarily blame the doctors for doing this. Think of it like this: Insurance companies issue coverage policies. These policies often have detailed rationale citing medical studies examining the evidence. The policy usually says either (there are other reasons too) "Covered as medically necessary under these conditions," or it says, "Not covered because the procedure is considered investigational or experimental." Now, don't let those research citations fool you because the policy decision is often at odds with the research; I mean, it's been well established here that there is no evidence supporting accupuncture yet most insurances consider it medically necessary for a few conditions. Meanwhile, other treatments (usually more expensive) for which there is at least some evidence that supports a benefit, are considered experimental and not covered.

I guess my point is that doctors are kind of conditioned into making medical decisions based on what insurance companies think is medically necessary. I'm not saying this is right; I'm just saying that's what happens. "BCBS says it's medically necessary? I didn't think there was enough evidence for it but if they say so that's good enough for me."

Yes, there is too much thinking about money in all this, but I say hate the game, not the players.
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Old 14th May 2021, 02:22 PM   #55
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I don't think a placebo will work on someone like me who is extremely skeptical of the procedure. And I don't like being BSd. I have told him many times that I do not "believe" in acupuncture yet he keeps recommending it.

My confidence in this doctor's judgment has taken a huge hit and that is not good for a patient.

I'll get as much care as I can from this, then move on to my own provider.

Receiving medical care should not be like this. All the ********, the tiptoeing through questions for fear of being denied care. Must suck being a doctor at times.

I feel like my auto mechanic is more honest and that isn't good. Of course he gets paid cash.

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Old 14th May 2021, 06:17 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes, but money changes everything. If doctors can get paid for providing an accupuncture treatment, then a lot of them will offer accupuncture treatments. Especially if there is little to no cost to the patient. They will do that because the knee injection that will actually work has a lot of hurdles to cross -pre-authorization, cost to patient, risk of the procedure, etc.
Amen to that. My mom spent 2 hours in the ER and we received a "This Is Not a Bill" statement. Under "Amount Facility Charged," the amount was $26,428! But then they settled with Medicare for $649.16, and and we were billed $162.31.

Question, do uninsured people get a bill for the full $26,000?

The imaging alone was listed at about $20,000. Is there some internal reason to do this? Is this amortization for the machines?

I think she may have raised a ruckus when she realized they were preparing to admit her. She'd had two CT scans (head and neck), clotting tests, X-rays of her ankle and chest, an EKG, IV fluids, and was hooked up to one of those machines that displays vital signs. Nothing broken, and I could not see admitting her if I wasn't allowed to be with her. She has dementia, and my instinct was to get her out of there. My brothers agreed. I'm grateful for the care she got and I'm sure it was proper protocol, though they didn't actually treat the ankle sprain.

The sprain looked worse by the day. Her lower leg turned a dark purple and it was so swollen with blood that it eventually pushed off some of her skin, creating open wounds. I never knew a sprain could do that. But it's her body healing itself. Even at age 96. She got the conventional treatment but the main ingredient is time.

The MRI itself might have a healing effect in some people, per the Harvard Gazette:

Depressed get a lift from MRI


Quote:
Twenty-three people with bipolar depression (77 percent) felt better after scanning than before it. Only three (30 percent) of those who received sham scans said they felt better. Four of the healthy comparisons (29 percent) reported that the scans elevated their moods.
A couple of caveats, these were people getting their heads scanned, not their hands. And this was a small group back in 2004.
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Old 14th May 2021, 06:28 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I don't think a placebo will work on someone like me who is extremely skeptical of the procedure. And I don't like being BSd. I have told him many times that I do not "believe" in acupuncture yet he keeps recommending it.

My confidence in this doctor's judgment has taken a huge hit and that is not good for a patient.

I'll get as much care as I can from this, then move on to my own provider.

Receiving medical care should not be like this. All the ********, the tiptoeing through questions for fear of being denied care. Must suck being a doctor at times.

I feel like my auto mechanic is more honest and that isn't good. Of course he gets paid cash.

I don't understand your fear of being denied care. Apparently you have the support of two different insurance companies. Other than recommending acupuncture, what else makes you mistrust this doctor?

What do you think caused this flareup?

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Old 15th May 2021, 04:58 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I don't understand your fear of being denied care. Apparently you have the support of two different insurance companies. Other than recommending acupuncture, what else makes you mistrust this doctor?

What do you think caused this flareup?

I've already answered these questions.

You answered a few of them as well...

Quote:
I think the placebo effect is useful, as long as it isn't preventing someone from getting a much more effective treatment.
Now I must question whether or not it is. It would be no different to me than if he'd offered crystal therapy.

He did not prescribe a placebo, he prescribed acupuncture as if it is vaild medicine. He never addressed my skepticism about it at all. If he had said, "Yes it's probably bull but who knows maybe it will work", then maybe I'd feel differently.

I must question his judgment across the board from now on.

Edit:
Oooh I just received a survey in the mail asking about my doctor! I have nothing to say yet, and I will hold off on participating for awhile. Jury is still out. I like him overall. We'll see how the next visit goes.
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Old 15th May 2021, 06:27 PM   #59
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I've been to both a physiotherapist and a doctor who seemed good until they recommended dry needling or acupuncture.

When I said I didn't believe in it, they said something along the lines of, "Well, some people think it works for them". As if the laws of physics change in that person's proximity.

I think the doctor may be testing you.

I've seen people say, "I didn't believe it could work, but it did".

If they knew how well you know it doesn't work, he might think differently.

He may be testing if you are willing to put the treatment to the test.

I was in an earlier appointment with a physiotherapist, and they did massage and recommended exercises, then offered dry needling. I was already on the bench/stretcher, so I decided to see for myself.

I didn't feel a thing and it didn't change a thing about my ailment.

At least now I can say, I've tried it, and it doesn't work.
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Old 15th May 2021, 06:41 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
If it's free then it's an opportunity to see if it actually works, curiosity would drag me in..
It isn't free.

Just because someone else is paying for it doesn't mean it's free, and you pay for it in the long run indirectly through higher insurance premiums.
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Old 15th May 2021, 07:37 PM   #61
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I've never had acupuncture and they don't cover this in my state. Having worked in an acute rehabilitation center 20 years ago we were trained to be aware of the dermatomes of spinal cord injured patients because if something was left in the bed they might be rolled over on it and it could cause autonomic dysreflexia.

I think if the acupuncturist knew about the different areas of dermatomes on the skin that it could theoretically help with chronic pain. I'm sure results would vary depending on the source of the pain, complexity of the nerve damage , and many other factors. I would at least try it to see how it worked or ask for a massage instead, massages fix many things , or at least you won't care as much afterwards.
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Old 17th May 2021, 12:08 AM   #62
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The study you cited measures one thing - how much air can be expelled from the lungs in one second. The subjective part was, the placebo patients found their symptoms reduced. (Not as much as the albuterol group, though).

I can't quite tease out the difference between feeling better and just thinking you feel better...
The difference is in actual measured outcomes. You could be tested and get a result of a certain volume of air expelled. Then you receive the placebo treatment and get tested again. You expel the same volume of air, but you believe you did better in the test than you did pre-treatment.

The danger here is in thinking that your condition has improved when it actually hasn't. It may lead to complacency and not seeking needed treatment in the future because "I'm fine!"
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Old 18th May 2021, 03:47 PM   #63
mgidm86
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Quote:
minoosh
I can't quite tease out the difference between feeling better and just thinking you feel better...

Feeling better isn't the goal. Physical improvement (being better) is. They are not the same.

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I've been to both a physiotherapist and a doctor who seemed good until they recommended dry needling or acupuncture.

When I said I didn't believe in it, they said something along the lines of, "Well, some people think it works for them". As if the laws of physics change in that person's proximity.

I think the doctor may be testing you.

I've seen people say, "I didn't believe it could work, but it did".

If they knew how well you know it doesn't work, he might think differently.

He may be testing if you are willing to put the treatment to the test.

I was in an earlier appointment with a physiotherapist, and they did massage and recommended exercises, then offered dry needling. I was already on the bench/stretcher, so I decided to see for myself.

I didn't feel a thing and it didn't change a thing about my ailment.

At least now I can say, I've tried it, and it doesn't work.

I already told him many times that it's a crock. I don't have to say I tried it to proclaim it does not work. Their own website states that it is only a "theory".

Thank you everyone for the responses. I will not be doing acupuncture, and if I don't hear what I want at my next visit I will consider telling the insurance person that I want another doctor.

Thank you.
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Old 18th May 2021, 07:56 PM   #64
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Cochrane Database: Acupuncture and related interventions for the treatment of symptoms associated with carpal tunnel syndrome
Quote:
Search methods
On 13 November 2017, we searched the Cochrane Neuromuscular Specialised Register, CENTRAL, MEDLINE, Embase, AMED, CINAHL Plus, DARE, HTA, and NHS EED. In addition, we searched six Korean medical databases, and three Chinese medical databases from inception to 30 April 2018. We also searched clinical trials registries for ongoing trials....

Authors' conclusions
Acupuncture and laser acupuncture may have little or no effect in the short term on symptoms of CTS in comparison with placebo or sham acupuncture. It is uncertain whether acupuncture and related interventions are more or less effective in relieving symptoms of CTS than corticosteroid nerve blocks, oral corticosteroids, vitamin B12, ibuprofen, splints, or when added to NSAIDs plus vitamins, as the certainty of any conclusions from the evidence is low or very low and most evidence is short term. The included studies covered diverse interventions, had diverse designs, limited ethnic diversity, and clinical heterogeneity. High‐quality randomised controlled trials (RCTs) are necessary to rigorously assess the effects of acupuncture and related interventions upon symptoms of CTS. Based on moderate to very‐low certainty evidence, acupuncture was associated with no serious adverse events, or reported discomfort, pain, local paraesthesia and temporary skin bruises, but not all studies provided adverse event data.
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Old 18th May 2021, 11:52 PM   #65
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Whereas I cannot buy the meridian/energy thing, there is no doubt that parts of the nervous system that provide pain and other sensations to the brain are inter-connected.

How do I come to this conclusion? Have you ever had an itch in one part of your skin, and scratched it, and simultaneously felt an itch develop in a point on your skin in another part of your body? This happens frequently, and even without an itch, the same phenomena can be induced by simply pinching, say the skin of your upper thigh and feeling a sensation in the surface of the skin on the side of your chest. The actual cause and effect locations of these sensations seem to be persistent and not randomised.

Does any of this relate in any way to acupuncture, or its effectiveness? Haven't got a clue.
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Old 19th May 2021, 12:25 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
Whereas I cannot buy the meridian/energy thing, there is no doubt that parts of the nervous system that provide pain and other sensations to the brain are inter-connected.

How do I come to this conclusion? Have you ever had an itch in one part of your skin, and scratched it, and simultaneously felt an itch develop in a point on your skin in another part of your body? This happens frequently, and even without an itch, the same phenomena can be induced by simply pinching, say the skin of your upper thigh and feeling a sensation in the surface of the skin on the side of your chest. The actual cause and effect locations of these sensations seem to be persistent and not randomised.

Does any of this relate in any way to acupuncture, or its effectiveness? Haven't got a clue.
Maybe once acupuncture has been a round for a few years something like this could be tested.
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Old 19th May 2021, 06:18 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
Whereas I cannot buy the meridian/energy thing, there is no doubt that parts of the nervous system that provide pain and other sensations to the brain are inter-connected.

How do I come to this conclusion? Have you ever had an itch in one part of your skin, and scratched it, and simultaneously felt an itch develop in a point on your skin in another part of your body? This happens frequently, and even without an itch, the same phenomena can be induced by simply pinching, say the skin of your upper thigh and feeling a sensation in the surface of the skin on the side of your chest. The actual cause and effect locations of these sensations seem to be persistent and not randomised.

Does any of this relate in any way to acupuncture, or its effectiveness? Haven't got a clue.
While this is more or less true, it is in no way related to acupuncture. Acupuncture purports that specific locations correspond with specific organs along specific meridians. The kind of "phantom" itch you are referring to is essentially random.
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Old 26th June 2021, 09:11 PM   #68
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Well I got another doctor for a second opinion. I could tell within 30 seconds of entering the office what was going to happen, and I was correct.

He recommended acupuncture. His answers to my doubts:

- actually there are studies...

me: nothing better than placebo, I've been at this a long time. I'm an ISFer dammit!

- well we can check the box off on the form saying you tried it, then go forward. People also have a better response if they believe it's going to help.

Me: and I obviously don't believe it, so how's that grab ya, doc? I told him why I think they prescribe it (to shut people up while the body heals due to other means, stuff like that heh).

He says I can stop anytime. I felt like I had to do it so I agreed to try it.

Legitimizing this BS one patient (who's afraid he'll be denied treatment) at a time I guess. First medicine I've ever been prescribed where the doctor cannot explain how it works, at all.

I didn't read the rest of the thread. I'll let you know how it goes. Last time I agreed to do it but I cancelled it and went for a new doctor. I already want to cancel this one.

Who can I complain or inquire about this? AMA? How is acupuncture considered medicine? Dubya tee eff?
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Old 26th June 2021, 09:16 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

This link isn't working, at least right now. I found this one:

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr...1215.pub2/full

Thanks! Didn't see this before.

Ya sure, acupuncture, meanwhile I'll be in pain that much longer.
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Old 26th June 2021, 10:20 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
This link isn't working, at least right now. I found this one:

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr...1215.pub2/full

Thanks! Didn't see this before.

Ya sure, acupuncture, meanwhile I'll be in pain that much longer.
Interesting, my link still works for me but yours leads to the same place. You should bring this to the attention of the docs treating you. They should understand the significance of a Cochrane Review.
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Old 27th June 2021, 05:02 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post

Legitimizing this BS one patient (who's afraid he'll be denied treatment) at a time I guess. First medicine I've ever been prescribed where the doctor cannot explain how it works, at all.

That's exactly how I feel about it, and I am dumbstruck that others can embrace the treatment, given this limitation. I am equally amazed that the "doctors" can apply a treatment, without any knowledge of the mechanism behind it.

If some studies have been been done, indicating that some effect of the treatment on a medical condition, if needles were inserted in certain places, then it's possible that a negative effect may also occur.
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Old 29th June 2021, 03:27 PM   #72
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Good point, Thor 2. I really do not want to do it.

I don't know if I should fight this or give in. It is my nature not to go along with bull.

Could a doctor or insurance company tell me, "Well you didn't try acupuncture so I can't recommend further treatment"? That's my only concern with saying no.

If not then I would absolutely cancel. Or maybe I'll drop the comp claim and go to my primary doctor.

I need to think about this. It's not like I can just get the doctor on the phone and have a debate before the appointment.

!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 29th June 2021, 05:06 PM   #73
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Well the AMA do have something to say on the subject of complementary medicine which includes acupuncture.

https://www.ama.com.au/position-stat...-medicine-2018


One excerpt:

Quote:
1.7. There is limited efficacy evidence regarding most complementary medicine and some have the potential to cause adverse reactions or interact with conventional medicine. Unproven complementary medicines and therapies can also pose a risk to patient health either directly through misuse or indirectly if a patient defers seeking medical advice.
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Old 4th August 2021, 04:46 PM   #74
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Update:

I had an EMG today (nerve test). Why did I have this test? Because I asked about it!

Nobody suggested it to me. I'd had one several years ago, and when I mentioned it to the Doc he said, "Hey good idea let's do that again, see if anything has changed"

I'm my own doctor, folks.

So I get approval for the test from insurance. But nobody contacts me for an appointment, even though I have another office visit approaching. And I'm in pain by the way, hello?

So I called. They said "I don't see that you have been approved"

Me "Look again. I received approval in the mail three weeks ago"

click click "Oh yes I see you did. Okay let's make an appointment!"

Me "Ya glad I thought of it". Appointment made for next week (today). Gee wasn't that easy? It's even in their own office! So difficult!

Next day I called again and rescheduled the office visit. Why visit before any tests? So they can bill the insurance of course! I switched doctors, so this new guy needs to cash in. Well what else am I supposed to think at this point?

And guess what? I have not received an appointment for acupuncture either. Not complaining, although once again, they dropped the ball.

EMG guy says I have some carpal, but also something maybe going on in my neck which can cause a lot of these symptoms. After he goes over the results more thoroughly he will possibly recommend an MRI to check that area.

An MRI! Where have I heard that before? Who has been asking about getting an MRI for the past four months? Oh I remember...I have!!!

If I were my own doctor I would have had the EMG and the MRI months ago, and would be a lot farther along than this. Gawdamn and I thought acupuncture was my biggest concern!

I'm angry but at least I see how things work. You gotta be your own advocate.
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Old 4th August 2021, 05:30 PM   #75
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How did they find something in your neck while testing your hand/wrist/arm? Just curious.
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Old 5th August 2021, 05:45 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No it isn't.
having had some success with it years ago, what exactly is the objection. My case was a pinched nerve that was improved by the treatment. Again the basis for the objection please.
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Old 5th August 2021, 05:47 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I also thought accupuncture did something to the nerves (pressure?). I see that it is still based on Qi. Not even pretending it's medicine.

From my hospital website:

https://thrive.kaiserpermanente.org/...s/acupuncture/




Seriously? Wow.
Not in my case, they did something called moxa which involved heat being applied as well. Basically relaxed the area around the pinched nerve causing improvement. Only needed to go once.
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Old 5th August 2021, 06:28 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How did they find something in your neck while testing your hand/wrist/arm? Just curious.
The older I get, the more painfully aware I become that everything to do with my arm starts in muscle groups in my neck and shoulder area.
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Old 5th August 2021, 07:51 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The older I get, the more painfully aware I become that everything to do with my arm starts in muscle groups in my neck and shoulder area.
the pinched nerve in question was in my greater neck area.
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Old 5th August 2021, 08:02 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by jollyroger85 View Post
the pinched nerve in question was in my greater neck area.
The neck suburbs, as it were.
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