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Old 7th August 2021, 12:36 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
So, that is TCM... and that is their country. I use some or have used a few supplements made from animal species.

I have been taking a Thyroid support since 2002, made with Bovine ingredients, yep desiccated thyroid medicine is that. And for some years I took some Deer Antler medicine for mood enhancement and other health issues and then I found DHEA.

Desiccated thyroid support has been used decades before modern medicine labs came in with their synthetic drugs. I could write a book on this issue too.

This is about Acupuncture, a Needle. How many animals in the Needle.

As usual, so so many closed minds to other medicines in the world. And the clueless people here. Amazing. But true.
You stated that "It's only been the standard of care/medicine in China for 3000 yrs or so."

The only type of "medicine" that matches that description is TCM not acupuncture.
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Old 7th August 2021, 03:27 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
As usual, so so many closed minds to other medicines in the world. And the clueless people here. Amazing. But true.
Or, some of us have actually looked into a load of things to do with medicine, healthcare, effeciveness and evidence and have seen that the likes of acupuncture do not work and have no basis in physics, anatomy or physiology.

Which is exactly what I did.
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Old 7th August 2021, 06:54 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Or, some of us have actually looked into a load of things to do with medicine, healthcare, effeciveness and evidence and have seen that the likes of acupuncture do not work and have no basis in physics, anatomy or physiology.

Which is exactly what I did.
Me too.

I recommend a book called Trick or Treatment in fact. It is a brilliant investigation into ACM and it's written jointly by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst. Ernst especially is noteworthy as he is a doctor who uses Complimentary medicine, but only that which has been shown to have some efficacy.
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Old 7th August 2021, 08:44 AM   #124
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^ I'll second that one, Mark.

Britt Hermes' takedowns of naturopathy (there's a good one in Pseudoscience - The conspiracy against science, edited by Allison and James Kaufman, along with a lot of other goodies), from the perspective of a former naturopath who realised that it was mostly a load of old bollocks and can explain why from within, are also worth a read.
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Old 8th August 2021, 02:51 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Me too.

I recommend a book called Trick or Treatment in fact. It is a brilliant investigation into ACM and it's written jointly by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst. Ernst especially is noteworthy as he is a doctor who uses Complimentary medicine, but only that which has been shown to have some efficacy.
Thirded, an excellent overview of the subject by people who really know the subject. Ernst especially, he was Britain's first Professor of Complementary Medicine and spent the early part of his career with the express intention of providing irrefutable evidence of the effectiveness of CAM. What makes him so unusual is that when the actual results lead him in the opposite direction he followed that evidence.
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Old 8th August 2021, 02:59 AM   #126
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Complementary.
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Old 8th August 2021, 03:23 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Complementary.
Thank you! Changed.
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Old 9th August 2021, 12:07 AM   #128
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Complimentary medicine is the kind that tells you you're looking a lot better today.
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Old 9th August 2021, 01:21 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Complimentary medicine is the kind that tells you you're looking a lot better today.
That applies equally to complementary medicine!
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Old 9th August 2021, 01:25 AM   #130
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I've said it before, but I regard alternative medicine as what you take instead of medicine, and complementary medicine as what you take alongside your medicine that you then attribute your recovery to.
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Old 10th August 2021, 09:43 PM   #131
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Went to Doc today. Neck MRI appointment will be made.

The doctors assistant took care of me today. I mentioned I had to be proactive in getting this EMG appointment, he said they had system issues recently.

Doc also mentioned acupuncture (I said I'd only be back to this thread if he did).

He asked me how the acupuncture was going and I told him I was never contacted about that. Same as the EMG. We briefly discussed acu. I suggested we wait until the MRI to start trying things and he agreed.

Glad I thought of it

Why would these guys prescribe acu before even knowing what's wrong? Rhetorical question.

By the way my second test was called a Needle Electro Myocardial something I think. Can't remember for sure. It tests to see how much current the muscle generates once stimulated.

So my recommendation of an EMG resulted in a doctor recommendation of a neck MRI which I suggested to my previous doctor 3 months ago.

It makes sense to me (layman) because this pain has been going on for a very long time and some of it just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe this is what has been throwing off the doctors.

Tip of the hat to the EMG dude...he was very cool, professional and explained a lot.

Someone wanna chase that mosquito out of here? It's so annoying.
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Old 11th August 2021, 03:26 AM   #132
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Glad you're finally getting something sensible.

Someone of a cynical turn of mind (Me? With my reputation?), might wonder about the medic thinking about vague pain which would clear itself up, so suggest something, like placebo, which many folk don't know is just a theatrical placebo, to keep patient happy and make them think Something Is Being Done.
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Old 25th October 2021, 06:38 PM   #133
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I'm discovering it is more along the lines of "Oh it's a workers comp insurance claim, give him the cheap stuff" And you are right that many people will heal all by themselves over time, so they may think that acupuncture worked.

I didn't get an attorney so I will say a little more here now. I finally got the MRI. Should get a diagnosis any day. I have the images and it's pretty cool. Much clearer than my MRI 10 years or so ago.

My insurance rep wanted to sign me up for a 3 person panel to discuss my case and see if I'm receiving adequate care. Sounded like a good idea at first, but who are these three people? Insurance employees? **** that. If I need help I'll go straight to an attorney at this point.

They've blown a lot of smoke up my arse so no, you can shove your panel. Every time I talk to this rep things get worse for me so I stopped answering his calls altogether.

The doctor asked if I wanted more physical therapy. Dude, why are you asking me? Do you think I need it, "doctor"?

So I said sure give me two appointments just so I can bounce some questions off of them. The doctors never answer my questions. Should I do this, should I sleep with my arm like this? Nothing. Ever.

Anyways, they set me up with 8 appointments instead of two. Hard not to be cynical and think they are padding their bill to the insurance company. I don't need 8 therapy appts. I had 6 some months ago.

If after the MRI I need surgery or something then maybe therapy would be good. WTF man?

I ended up cancelling my two therapy appointments for other reasons. After the MRI diagnosis I will decide what to do next.

Oh ya, then there's this:

Doctor: "Yes you do have some carpal tunnel syndrome"

Me, "Okay and...?"

Crickets. Time to kick some more ass I guess.
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Old 25th October 2021, 06:45 PM   #134
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The insurance and bill padding are just as bad as the prescribed acupuncture. My sympathies. You're doing well to navigate this mess.
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Old 26th October 2021, 03:18 PM   #135
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Workers comp sucks. I’d suggest you get a lawyer, but the lawyers who handle workers comp suck, too. At some point you may need one, though.
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Old 26th October 2021, 05:59 PM   #136
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My Doctor Prescribed Accupuncture For My Tendinitis

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Workers comp sucks. I’d suggest you get a lawyer, but the lawyers who handle workers comp suck, too. At some point you may need one, though.

The whole WC industry is nothing but money grubbing. The doctors who agree to be a part of it…the therapy companies who take those patients…the administrators who have the insurance company’s profits in mind…the lawyers who represent patients who have been abused by the system…

No one is thinking of the patient and their recovery. What they want is their piece of the pie.

But of all those, I would trust a good WC patient lawyer above anyone else. They know how to work the system and get the best they can for the patient. Sure, they are mostly self-interested but they get the maximum for their patients.

But seriously…the whole system needs to be purged. The incentives need to be rejiggered and the focus needs to be on the patient and their recovery.

Ha! Like that will ever happen….
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Old 26th October 2021, 07:25 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The whole WC industry is nothing but money grubbing. The doctors who agree to be a part of it…the therapy companies who take those patients…the administrators who have the insurance company’s profits in mind…the lawyers who represent patients who have been abused by the system…

No one is thinking of the patient and their recovery. What they want is their piece of the pie.

But of all those, I would trust a good WC patient lawyer above anyone else. They know how to work the system and get the best they can for the patient. Sure, they are mostly self-interested but they get the maximum for their patients.

But seriously…the whole system needs to be purged. The incentives need to be rejiggered and the focus needs to be on the patient and their recovery.

Ha! Like that will ever happen….
Your dream is no more fantastic than acupuncture actually working.
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Old 6th November 2021, 03:58 PM   #138
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Copy and pasting because quote function randomly stops working with Firefox. Now I remember why I ditched it before, and it only happens here.


Quote:
Quoted from xjx388


The whole WC industry is nothing but money grubbing. The doctors who agree to be a part of it…the therapy companies who take those patients…the administrators who have the insurance company’s profits in mind…the lawyers who represent patients who have been abused by the system…

No one is thinking of the patient and their recovery. What they want is their piece of the pie.

But of all those, I would trust a good WC patient lawyer above anyone else. They know how to work the system and get the best they can for the patient. Sure, they are mostly self-interested but they get the maximum for their patients.

But seriously…the whole system needs to be purged. The incentives need to be rejiggered and the focus needs to be on the patient and their recovery.

Ha! Like that will ever happen….

I agree 5000%. That has been my suspicion from the very first question my doctor asked me, which was verbatim "So, you're looking for permanent disability?"


No! Rule of so, *******!
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Old 6th November 2021, 04:20 PM   #139
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I'm constantly surprised how there are so many words in american english to do with being treated medically that I don't understand.
I suppose the nhs has spoiled me, it's surprising.
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Old 20th November 2021, 05:37 PM   #140
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To every doctor and insurance douchebag I have dealt with since all of this started: I was right all along, and you suck, every single one of you.

MRI results show there is definitely a problem. The quick version is that the nerves coming out of one of my vertebrae have pressure on them caused by a narrowing of where they protrude. I have the technical stuff on my desk now but I'm not sure what is what at the moment, so I'm keeping it simple. Too tired.

Point is that some (or a lot, not sure yet how much) of my arm pain and problems is being caused by this. There are different treatment options and all of them have been submitted to insurance. I will choose what to do about it at my next appointment.

And guess what? Acupuncture is not on the list of treatments LOL. What a ******* scam this is.

Again - they initially threw acupuncture at me without even knowing what the problem was. Now that they know the problem acupuncture is not mentioned. These are large medical providers, kaiser Permanente was the first. This is mainstream.

Of course they are trying to talk me into the lower cost stuff they can do themselves in their clinic. I'm thinking of seeing a neurologist for advice on my own dime if necessary.

And hey Doc, what the hell good would the acupuncture have done that you wanted me to do? Where would you have stuck me...my arms? I'm gonna ask next visit.

What a ******* joke. I feel sorry for people who just listen to these quacks and do whatever they say.

Finally to all the woosters in this thread - well one or two - piss off. Seriously, you are useless. You can listen to your witch doctors and friends of friends all you want. I pushed through all of that ********, demanded real medicine and got real answers. Grape seed extract will not cure my problem.

I feel sorry for anyone stupid or desperate enough to listen to these cranks. You are the reason JREF was founded. Just shut the **** up and let the adults in the room talk. Your advice harms people and it would have harmed me by keeping me from proper treatment. I can not properly express myself due to forum rules. Go play in traffic with razor blades, m'kay? **** you.
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Old 21st November 2021, 05:41 AM   #141
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Wow!

There is some serious ******* up going on with your care (or lack of...). Glad the MRI has finally shown up the nature of the problems and given pointers to actual treatment.

Just to reinforce a point you make, which has already been made up thread: there is absolutely NO excuse for a qualified medic (or physio or nurse or...) recommending acupuncture at all, as they should all know that not only does it not work, that there is no decent evidence for it working, but also that the supposed mechanism for its supposed action is pure and utter manure of the bovine and then that suggesting use of something which can, at best, only have placebo effects is unethical. This is barely any better than suggesting homeopathy...
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Old 21st November 2021, 10:32 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Your advice harms people and it would have harmed me by keeping me from proper treatment.
This the appeal of skepticism. Skeptics are the consumer advocates in the marketplace of ideas. Previously the prevailing wisdom was, "Well, what harm does fringe thinking do?" Over the past few years we've seen what political and social harm it can do. But specifically in terms of medical quackery, we see people who potentially have life-threatening illnesses who have limited time left and limited resources. Urging them to throw away those precious limited resources on methods known not to work is callous, selfish, and immoral.

When it bubbles up into serious medicine, where providers and payors are motivated to apply ineffective treatments rather than pay for proper diagnoses and treatment, it borders on fraud. We trust our healthcare providers to do what's in our best interests. We trust our healthcare payment system to treat us as paying customers instead of profit centers.

I'm glad you're on a better road to diagnosis, treatment, and recovery. I'm sorry you had to deal with such quackery. Quite a lot of Americans share your frustration and can easily sympathize.
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Old 7th December 2021, 12:55 AM   #143
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Any ideas on how/whom I could complain about this or make some kind of a difference? I am disgusted by this experience and would be interested in exposing these practices.

I have an appointment tomorrow to go over my treatment options.

In other news:

A few weeks ago my 75 year old Mom had a so-called Widow Maker heart attack and survived. She should recover "fully". I drove to Oregon to see her and she's back at her normal "duties" (sewing, cooking, being irritated by my Step-Dad) though she tires more easily, which is expected. She is improving slowly in that regard.

She called 911, the EMTs picked her up at her house, and by the time they got to the hospital a few miles away she was ready for surgery. Gowned up, they gave her nitroglycerin, and the operating room was ready for her when they got her there.

They told her, "Hang on, we're gonna be driving fast!" I'd like to thank them. They saved her life and I'm tearing up thinking about it now.

They wheeled her straight in, put in a few stints, and she was awake the entire time.

This thread is even more upsetting to me now. Thankfully she had doctors and not woosters like I've had.

Science for the ******* win! Thank you, science, for giving me back my Mom!


Carrot and Jay, thank you for your comments.
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Old 7th December 2021, 01:11 AM   #144
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I am going to mention names here in case I didn't before.

My first provider was Kaiser Permanente, which is a giant in this country. They are the ones who asked me, first question, "So, you're looking for permanent disability?" They also pushed acupuncture to the point that I sought a second doctor.

It says right on their website (I posted it earlier) that acupuncture is not proven and is probably baloney. Yet it was recommended to me and actually pushed.

The other is Allied Pain and Spine Institute. Joe Montana says they're great. I'm sure they are if you are a paying customer like Joe. I say not so much, although I DID get them to work with me eventually, but only because I learned this game and told them I wouldn't tolerate anymore crap.

If I didn't complain and insist I would have never had the MRI or the nerve test. Both were my suggestion.

The insurance provider is called State Compensation Insurance Fund, or as it says on some of their literature, State Fund. They are the worst supposedly and the only company that is, so I hear, forced to work with the type of business I am working for, which is a pot dispensary. I do graphic design and make videos for them. I'm not in the store.

I hope people who see this thread will re-evaluate their feelings on these woo practices and realize that this stuff can be dangerous.

Take your car to a mechanic and they will list every mother frickin thing they can find wrong with your car. That is how medical care should be, or at least within reason.
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Old 7th December 2021, 04:19 AM   #145
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I do not know how the relevant systems work in the US, what with being in the UK, but there are 2 possible components to any complaint.

You may wish to complain about the conduct and policies of an organisation (say, Kaiser). I would expectthem to have available a mechanism for "customer" complaints, either accessible from their website or by ringing whichever office.

Second is a complaint against individual doctors, which, I expect, would have to go through the particular licensing board for your state. It would be helpful to obtain copies of the relevant rules and regulations. Making any complaint as specific as possible is better for you, so you minimise the chances of being written off without being taken seriously. Over here such a thing would involve reference to our NICE guidelines, which clinicians of all disciplines are obliged to follow - you don't have that, so finding something in the rules and regs about best clinical practice or evidence-based practice might be a way to go.


I probably don't need to tell you this, but try to keep your complaints as succint and concise as possible, don't over do the anger but maybe save a section of the complaint for how this has affected you and made you feel. Re-read and edit, get someone else you trust to read it. Do avoid personal insults, libel and all swears, naturally, no matter how hard this is (I am generally on my 5th or 6th re-write before I can think about sending a complaint, just to get all the rubbish in my head out of the way).

From my reading of blogs like Orac's Respectful Insolence, it appears that licensing bodies over there are reluctant to act, so don't expect too much.

Why, yes, part of my last job did include being a NHS complaints investigator...
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Old 7th December 2021, 02:36 PM   #146
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Glad your mum is OK.
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Old 12th December 2021, 12:43 AM   #147
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Thanks Carrot and Orphia! Mum is doing great (I love the term "Mum"), and ya I'm pretty good at writing professional letters, I'm just a potty mouth in this thread

Briefly since my tendinitis is bothering me (grrrrr!), I went to the doctor Tuesday to see which treatments we could try. Guess what they said?

"I sent the stuff in to your insurance a month ago and have heard nothing at all. Radio silence. I'd give you the epidural right now if I could"

This is my shocked face

A whole month of no progress. Again! I should have known better than to wait.

I emailed the insurance rep, he got back to me that day, said he would call the doctors immediately. Then he sends me a PDF of the history of their correspondence with each other (Dr and insurance) and said I should call him ASAP.

My thought is that I am not an administrator and I don't need your excuses. YOU figure it out, I'm the patient! Doc says he sent requests, insurance says they never received them.

So instead I called the doc and asked if any progress had been made with the requests. It was late Friday so I will hear back on Monday. The woman said, "Your insurance agent seems kind of...." I said "weird?", and she laughed, agreeing without agreeing officially. He is.

Three things are up for approval - an epidural to the neck to see how much the nerves in my neck are affecting things, a shot to the elbow to relax that area, and a shot to the carpal area. All I would say are diagnostic. Let's see what helps and go from there.

I will also call the insurance guy on Monday. I would have Friday but I was not feeling very patient and I might have lost my temper.

Score card:

It has now been 8 months and only the nerve test and MRI have been performed, and only because I persisted.

I think Allied Pain is doing an okay job really. Other than the initial acupuncture recommendation, I think they have played it fair, unless they are the reason the insurance requests aren't "getting through". I doubt it though.


Thanks again for the helpful comments, I'm reading every one of them. I hope this thread can help someone else somehow.
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Old 10th January 2022, 08:47 PM   #148
mgidm86
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I started this thread in May 2021, but I started seeing the doctors earlier, around end of March.

I finally had my first treatment today, almost 10 months later! Sigh.

It was a shot into my carpal tunnel. A steroid. My 2 middle fingers are now somewhat numb and tingling from a numbing agent that was also in there. That should last about 12 hours total.

I got to watch this via sonogram. This other doctor, who is also an anesthesiologist did a good job and used the sonogram to move the needle where it needed to go. I could see the drug as a dark area in the picture. Pretty cool, and the only pain was the initial jab into the underside of my wrist.

She put the needle in from the side sort of, and moved it in and out across my carpal band/ligament crap I have to look the names up again.

My regular doctor said he could do it but that this other woman was a "guru" and he recommended her instead. That's advice I appreciate! Of course I don't want the guy that doesn't wanna do it to do it!

I won't feel any effects from today's shot for about 5 days.

In 3 weeks we will most likely try the injection that goes in my elbow. That will probably be more effective (my opinion).

The third injection we were going to try was to be in my spine, like an epidural. The insurance declined that, and from my reading of their reasons it seems that this procedure could be too risky given my symptoms. My doctor disagrees though and is resubmitting that. The nerve test showed a problem in my neck and that could be a big part of my problem.

But we'll see how these other two injections work out first.

He ******* still recommended acupuncture again and I said absolutely not. He asked why (I guess he forgot my reasons). I am going to bring him my research on the effectiveness of acupuncture for tendinitis and let him read it for himself.

As I left the exam room I noticed a certificate of acupuncture hanging in the hallway. I also said "no" to chiro to adjust my joints.

I asked him if he wanted a crystal shoved up his ass instead of money for the visit....okay I didn't. ARRRG!!!

So I am FINALLY getting some actual doctor-stuff performed.

Edit to add:
My doctor didn't know why the epidural was declined. I told him I skimmed the three page report they sent me and he says "Oh let me check that out". He then skimmed it in front of me on his computer.

Moral of that story is he didn't know a damn thing about it until I TOLD HIM. Then he said "Okay well I'm going to resubmit this"

So once again, be your own advocate!!!!!
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Old 10th January 2022, 08:52 PM   #149
arthwollipot
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Is your doctor of Chinese descent? Pretty much every paper that finds positive effects of acupuncture is Chinese.
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Old 10th January 2022, 08:54 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
...
As I left the exam room I noticed a certificate of acupuncture hanging in the hallway. I also said "no" to chiro to adjust my joints.

I asked him if he wanted a crystal shoved up his ass instead of money for the visit....okay I didn't. ARRRG!!!

So I am FINALLY getting some actual doctor-stuff performed.
Interesting.

Look what I found, maybe you found it also:

SBM: Puncturing the Acupuncture Myth; Harriet Hall on October 21, 2008
Quote:
Note: This is slightly revised from an article I originally wrote as a “SkepDoc” column for Skeptic magazine. It was pre-released online in eSkeptic and it has already generated a lot of comments, including “a truly amazing piece of peurile pseudo-intellectualism,” “an ad hominem attack on one form of alternative medicine so beset by poor thinking that one must come to the conclusion this woman might just be paid to write such propaganda,” and “twaddle wrapped in swaddling rhetoric.” (I treasure comments like those as evidence that my critics are so bankrupt of real arguments that they have to dip into the insult pouch for ammunition.)
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Old 10th January 2022, 10:24 PM   #151
Orphia Nay
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Glad you're finally getting some real medicine.
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Old 20th January 2022, 01:00 AM   #152
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Is your doctor of Chinese descent? Pretty much every paper that finds positive effects of acupuncture is Chinese.
Nope none of these people are. First old doc was a white dude, current doctor seems to be Italian descent, but young American dude.

Today I went to my QME appointment (Doctor that examines me and the care I've received, impartially) trying not to feel too cynical or defensive. It turned out well, the doctor agreed that the treatment was not awesome.

The Dr that did my exam today was very good, partly because he said everything I'd hoped he'd say, that my treatment had been poor until recently. But he was also very thorough and sharp.

This guy was at least 80 years old maybe closer to 90. He pointed out that my neck epidural was rejected because my doctor submitted it to be done in the wrong area of my neck, he wrote the wrong "Cs"! So now I can tell my doctor about that! Gotta laugh sometimes.

Also, this doctor mentioned acupuncture too! He asked why I refused it and I gave one or two reasons, placebo, bla bla, and he mentioned that about 1/3 of people have positive results and I replied respectfully bla bla, and we moved on. I liked him he was cool.

There were alternative medicine practices next door to him in this corner mall building. I walked up thinking....well you know. Ah $#!^

He spoke his final report into his little recorder for transcription as I sat there, which I thought was totally cool, and he asked for my corrections as he did. Boom, there's your report! I liked it!

So to wrap up that question, all 3 of the "main" doctors I've seen recommended acupuncture...two white dudes and one might-as-well-be white dude At least two had acupuncturists on their staff.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Interesting.

Look what I found, maybe you found it also:

SBM: Puncturing the Acupuncture Myth; Harriet Hall on October 21, 2008
I have that loaded in a tab now and will read it when I'm more sober tomorrow! Thank you!


Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Glad you're finally getting some real medicine.
Thank you!

So about the carpal tunnel shot I mentioned - it's actually doing some good, for pain at least I mean. I should be hurting by now while I type this and mouse around but I'm not. I notice the effect only in my hand near and below the wrist, nowhere above. Maybe a little above, but I dunno. Hmmm. It took almost a week for the effect to take...effect.

So that's interesting. Just noticed the no-pain thing yesterday I think. In a few weeks I get the elbow area done.

It's kind of a trip to have no pain in the wrist and hand, like wow I forgot what it was like to feel normal!

By the way everything I say here is on the record somewhere already. It can't come back to bite me later.
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Old Yesterday, 10:03 PM   #153
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Holy crap, I mentioned this on my facebook, and PILES of actual medical professionals, including an epidemiologist came freaking out in defense of quacupuncture, chiroquactic, homeopathy and all sorts of nonsense

Is it not politically correct to be against s/cam "medicine" anymore?
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Old Yesterday, 10:07 PM   #154
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This has been really telling to me as I always note the similarities between left wing and right wing science denial.

The real issue is that people are so polarized they are willing to throw out science that isn't on their side.

To kind of paraphrase something matt dillahunty used to see before he went full religion again, these people don;t care whether or not their beliefs are true and they don't care about having as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible

I remember the JREF, I remember how hard Randi fought these quack medicine scumbags....sad now, who will stand up?

Our used to be allies are now pleased as punch to throw out the science if it doesn't fit their politics
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