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Tags Coronavirus , Coronavirus conspiracies , diseases , medical conspiracies

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Old 18th November 2021, 03:19 PM   #3041
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
I bought and am reading the book that Bubba linked. The premise behind the therapeutic effect is that the hydroxyl radical borrows its electron from ferrous Iron, which is apparently used by all or most viral pathogens:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3676888/

And then it induces apoptosis in virus cells (and apparently tumor cells as well).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...9158499700292X

So while hydroxy radicals are dangerous, the presumption is that it targets pathogenic cells.


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It is H2O2

It's a really strong oxidising agent, which is why it bleaches things. I'm sure it will inactivate coronavirus, the thing is it will also oxidise and corrode the linings of the airways as well, which isn't conducive to healthy living.

What is your level of formal education in biology or chemistry? My highest biology qualification is a GCSE and an A-level in chemistry, so pretty low, but enough to know that inhaling hydrogen peroxide is a bad idea.


ETA: just searched for videos to prove my point and guess what, a teenager produced this:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 18th November 2021, 03:32 PM   #3042
Tippit
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It is H2O2

It's a really strong oxidising agent, which is why it bleaches things. I'm sure it will inactivate coronavirus, the thing is it will also oxidise and corrode the linings of the airways as well, which isn't conducive to healthy living.

What is your level of formal education in biology or chemistry? My highest biology qualification is a GCSE and an A-level in chemistry, so pretty low, but enough to know that inhaling hydrogen peroxide is a bad idea.


ETA: just searched for videos to prove my point and guess what, a teenager produced this:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

High school biology. Youíre aware that H2O2 is used as an antiseptic in medicine, and bleach (NaOCl) isnít. Why do you think this is? Note that I am not recommending H2O2 therapy, Iím just reading about the science.


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Old 18th November 2021, 03:41 PM   #3043
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
High school biology. You’re aware that H2O2 is used as an antiseptic in medicine, and bleach (NaOCl) isn’t. Why do you think this is? Note that I am not recommending H2O2 therapy, I’m just reading about the science.


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It is no longer recommended for treating open wounds and never recommended for ingesting. It kills living cells. As has been explained, the unstable oxygen atom latches on an oxidizes the first molecule it can find. This is also why O2 is fine to breath in while O3 is toxic and can kill you.

Might be a good idea to find a good high school kid who can give you a crash course in basic chemistry.
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Last edited by Susheel; 18th November 2021 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 18th November 2021, 05:05 PM   #3044
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keeping hydrogen peroxide in check

Catalase is an enzyme that converts hydrogen peroxide into water and oxygen. "A catalase is one of the crucial antioxidant enzymes that mitigates oxidative stress to a considerable extent by destroying cellular hydrogen peroxide to produce water and oxygen. Deficiency or malfunction of catalase is postulated to be related to the pathogenesis of many age-associated degenerative diseases like diabetes mellitus, hypertension, anemia, vitiligo, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, bipolar disorder, cancer, and schizophrenia." link
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Old 18th November 2021, 05:27 PM   #3045
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
I place such public health precautions in the same category as other health code mandates - because some people are too stupid and selfish not to endanger the health of others. You don't have to **** in the public toilet if you think "the gays" are infecting them with HIV, but that doesn't mean you get to **** on the sidewalk outside the restaurant.
That reminds me - I really should work out how to get my evidence of vaccination showing in my Check In app. I don't tend to go to the places that require it, but I should do it anyway, just as a precaution.

Maybe tomorrow.
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Old 18th November 2021, 05:41 PM   #3046
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That reminds me - I really should work out how to get my evidence of vaccination showing in my Check In app. I don't tend to go to the places that require it, but I should do it anyway, just as a precaution.

Maybe tomorrow.

... In case you should actually come in touch with the police state. I feel you.
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Old 18th November 2021, 05:48 PM   #3047
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
... In case you should actually come in touch with the police state. I feel you.
Yeah, it's really tough getting along in the Police State.
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Old 18th November 2021, 06:09 PM   #3048
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Corona Virus Conspiracy Theories Part III

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Catalase is an enzyme that converts hydrogen peroxide into water and oxygen. "A catalase is one of the crucial antioxidant enzymes that mitigates oxidative stress to a considerable extent by destroying cellular hydrogen peroxide to produce water and oxygen. Deficiency or malfunction of catalase is postulated to be related to the pathogenesis of many age-associated degenerative diseases like diabetes mellitus, hypertension, anemia, vitiligo, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, bipolar disorder, cancer, and schizophrenia." link

My takeaway from that paper is that catalase deficiency may lead to degenerative diseases, not that H2O2 doesnít cause apoptosis in pathogenic cells.

Itís apparent that lots of chemotherapies have adverse effects, but itís typically only the patentable ones that get studies.

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Old 18th November 2021, 08:19 PM   #3049
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
... In case you should actually come in touch with the police state. I feel you.
You have absolutely no idea what a police state is.
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Old 18th November 2021, 09:03 PM   #3050
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
You have absolutely no idea what a police state is.

Would you mind explaining please, as it sounds like you know what a police state is.?
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Old 18th November 2021, 09:07 PM   #3051
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
... In case you should actually come in touch with the police state. I feel you.
Hey, CE! Glad you're back! Didja hear the latest? Bubba wrote a book! And Tippit says he can read it! Gosh, those guys, what a brain crane!

Almost as smart as you? Eh? Huh? Better keep in shape, buddy!

If ya wanna stay on my team.
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Old 18th November 2021, 09:55 PM   #3052
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Would you mind explaining please, as it sounds like you know what a police state is.?
The general definition is a country in which the police or other similar agencies have control, and the judiciary and democratic processes of legislation are undermined or severely weakened.
You knew this, of course, but I'm going to do you the courtesy of pretending you weren't just trying to lay a very clumsy and obvious heffalump trap.
In case you, Tippit and CE are going to try to gleefully pounce on this definition, and say 'LOOK! LOOK! THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING! VACCINE MANDATES!!!CONCENTRATION CAMPS!!!!' or words to that effect, let me elaborate.
In a functioning democracy, laws are passed by elected representatives. Not true of a police state.
These laws, and that process, entail the assent of the majority of the population. Not true of a police state.
These laws are passed with the aim of protecting the majority from harm by actions of a minority. This, as I have noted before, is true of any functional civilised society. All laws involve the restriction of freedom, because the safety of the majority outweighs the rights of individuals to put others at risk. The line where this is drawn is the subject of ongoing debate in many countries, and this is rightly so.
As an example: Bubba, you have talked about the possibility of 'evil psychos' contaminating vaccines during the manufacturing process. This, I hope you will agree, is wrong, and harmful to others, and therefore the freedom of evil psychos to poison people should be restricted. This is not totalitarianism: this is civilisation. The alternative is to allow these people complete liberty to poison and contaminate away to their hearts' content. I trust this is not a situation you would welcome.
It is the same for public health measures. We do not have the right to put others at risk by our actions. Indeed, the opposite is true: we have an obligation to protect others. This must necessarily mean the we accept limits to our personal freedoms. My right to swing my arm ends where your nose begins, as the saying goes. All societies do this, and must do this in order to function.
Deciding at what point these restrictions become less about protecting the community, and where they become oppressive, is the duty of all responsible citizens of a country. This is a debate that must take place, but simply screaming about police states every time a measure- no matter how innocuous, like mask-wearing, or how temporary, like lockdowns- aimed at protecting public health is enacted, is neither productive nor indicative of a mature and reasoned approach. It also weakens democracy, by devaluing the essential process of debate and scrutiny of legislation that is part of such a society.
Lastly, I will point out that, in the UK at least, public health measures have enjoyed the support of the great majority of the public. This shows that these measures are the result of democracy- the will of the majority. I would caution against claiming that this is a result of brainwashing. Arguing the the public is too stupid to be allowed a say in the running of their own country is the first step to arguing in favour of autocracy.
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Old 18th November 2021, 10:19 PM   #3053
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The general definition is a country in which the police or other similar agencies have control, and the judiciary and democratic processes of legislation are undermined or severely weakened.
You knew this, of course, but I'm going to do you the courtesy of pretending you weren't just trying to lay a very clumsy and obvious heffalump trap.
In case you, Tippit and CE are going to try to gleefully pounce on this definition, and say 'LOOK! LOOK! THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING! VACCINE MANDATES!!!CONCENTRATION CAMPS!!!!' or words to that effect, let me elaborate.
In a functioning democracy, laws are passed by elected representatives. Not true of a police state.
These laws, and that process, entail the assent of the majority of the population. Not true of a police state.
These laws are passed with the aim of protecting the majority from harm by actions of a minority. This, as I have noted before, is true of any functional civilised society. All laws involve the restriction of freedom, because the safety of the majority outweighs the rights of individuals to put others at risk. The line where this is drawn is the subject of ongoing debate in many countries, and this is rightly so.
As an example: Bubba, you have talked about the possibility of 'evil psychos' contaminating vaccines during the manufacturing process. This, I hope you will agree, is wrong, and harmful to others, and therefore the freedom of evil psychos to poison people should be restricted. This is not totalitarianism: this is civilisation. The alternative is to allow these people complete liberty to poison and contaminate away to their hearts' content. I trust this is not a situation you would welcome.
It is the same for public health measures. We do not have the right to put others at risk by our actions. Indeed, the opposite is true: we have an obligation to protect others. This must necessarily mean the we accept limits to our personal freedoms. My right to swing my arm ends where your nose begins, as the saying goes. All societies do this, and must do this in order to function.
Deciding at what point these restrictions become less about protecting the community, and where they become oppressive, is the duty of all responsible citizens of a country. This is a debate that must take place, but simply screaming about police states every time a measure- no matter how innocuous, like mask-wearing, or how temporary, like lockdowns- aimed at protecting public health is enacted, is neither productive nor indicative of a mature and reasoned approach. It also weakens democracy, by devaluing the essential process of debate and scrutiny of legislation that is part of such a society.
Lastly, I will point out that, in the UK at least, public health measures have enjoyed the support of the great majority of the public. This shows that these measures are the result of democracy- the will of the majority. I would caution against claiming that this is a result of brainwashing. Arguing the the public is too stupid to be allowed a say in the running of their own country is the first step to arguing in favour of autocracy.


OkeeDokee. Sounds about right.


What was the name of that Jim Carey flick where everyone around him was acting except him, and the world was watching his entire life on TV...?

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Old 18th November 2021, 10:41 PM   #3054
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Quote:
You knew this, of course, but I'm going to do you the courtesy of pretending you weren't just trying to lay a very clumsy and obvious heffalump trap.


Actually no. I've never heard anyone describe it. So I asked Susheel.

Your description is ok, generally. I'd quibble that evil psychos are farther along than you realize, as they control enough of the info flow to stay out of sight, mostly, which is why your post reminded me of Jim Carey in "The Truman Show"

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Old 18th November 2021, 10:43 PM   #3055
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
... In case you should actually come in touch with the police state. I feel you.

Congratulations on the success of the German anti-vaxxers!

Quote:
Summary
- Germany's Covid cases hit another high with 65,371 daily cases recorded
- Chancellor Angela Merkel has said a fourth wave of Covid is "hitting us with full force"
- German MPs vote in favour of a new set of measures, including access to public transport only for people who have been vaccinated or tested
German Covid cases hit new high after Merkel warning (BBC, Nov 18, 2021)
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Old 18th November 2021, 10:52 PM   #3056
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
My takeaway from that paper is that catalase deficiency may lead to degenerative diseases, not that H2O2 doesnít cause apoptosis in pathogenic cells.

Itís apparent that lots of chemotherapies have adverse effects, but itís typically only the patentable ones that get studies.

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Because to be a chemotherapy the chemical needs to *reach* the cells.

And your body has myriad ways of getting rid of H2O2 because it is a dangerous side product of the oxygen pathway in your mitochondria.
Barring actually injecting it directly into a cancer there is no way that chemical gets anywhere in your body.
And then it would only really affect a cancer that either lack peroxidase or by injecting it in lethal amounts.

The reason you can use it as an antiseptic is because it will only damage things on the surface of the skin, whereas our body has no such defense mechanism against bleach, which would then leak into your blood and do actual harm.

I am still appalled that you, with your clear lack of knowledge of basic biochemistry, let alone actual immunology, claim to know better than those who have studied in this field.
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Old 18th November 2021, 10:59 PM   #3057
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Congratulations on the success of the German anti-vaxxers!




Quote:
Summary
- Germany's Covid cases hit another high with 65,371 daily cases recorded
- Chancellor Angela Merkel has said a fourth wave of Covid is "hitting us with full force"
- German MPs vote in favour of a new set of measures, including access to public transport only for people who have been vaccinated or tested
German Covid cases hit new high after Merkel warning (BBC, Nov 18, 2021)


What will the number look like if they reach 99% vaxxed ?
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Old 18th November 2021, 11:01 PM   #3058
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Anti-vaxxers cry "Police State!" when they are told to get vaccinated to reduce the spread, and they cry it when we need to have a lockdown because they accelerated the spread.
They win either way - until ttey die.
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Old 18th November 2021, 11:19 PM   #3059
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
What will the number look like if they reach 99% vaxxed ?
Smaller.
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Old 18th November 2021, 11:19 PM   #3060
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Draw your conclusions

COVID - This pivotal moment - Are YOU willing to fight for freedom?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PLXIXTRFds
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Old 18th November 2021, 11:55 PM   #3061
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Would you mind explaining please, as it sounds like you know what a police state is.?
Better still...why dont you come to India? You remember that North Indian state you lauded for their no-vaccine Covid management? I will take you through a tour of that state and hook you up with some of my friends who work for Tribal rights and the emancipation of those suffering casteist oppression. And i am talking real rights, the right to existence, and not some spoilt "why can't I have my own way" temper tantrum that you think it is. You can then experience what Police State excesses actually mean.
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Old 19th November 2021, 12:12 AM   #3062
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Turns out it's not the government closing shops any more, it's protestors.

Quote:
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NEWS ALERT: Weíre so happy to have our door open, and itís great to be able to share the space with you again.

That said, weíre choosing to close tomorrow 20 November while the planned protest takes place. Over the last few weeks weíve found the protests increasingly difficult for our customers and our staff so weíre taking a bit of a breather tomorrow arvo.

But weíll be open again from 5pm tomorrow afternoon until 10pm. And then back to normal trading again from Sunday.

Enjoy your weekend and we look forward to seeing you back in the shop soon
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Old 19th November 2021, 12:14 AM   #3063
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Actually no. I've never heard anyone describe it. So I asked Susheel.

Your description is ok, generally. I'd quibble that evil psychos are farther along than you realize, as they control enough of the info flow to stay out of sight, mostly, which is why your post reminded me of Jim Carey in "The Truman Show"
Would you agree that it is necessary to control and restrict the attempts of evil psychos do do bad things?

Your blithe dismissal of democracy and human rights is noted.
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Old 19th November 2021, 12:23 AM   #3064
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
COVID - This pivotal moment - Are YOU willing to fight for freedom?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PLXIXTRFds
My conclusions? You have argued very strongly in the past about drawing conclusions. What made you change your mind?
Anyway, here are a few of my own:
1. I have no interest in wasting time on YouTube conspiracy theory videos. If you can't be bothered providing a summary, I can't be bothered watching it.
2. Nothing I have seen so far, anywhere around the world, as part of the response to Covid, has led me to believe that our freedoms are at risk.
3. That is, apart from the actions of anti-vaxxers, Trumpist insurrectionists and QAnon believers, who are profoundly anti-democratic and anti-freedom.
4. You yourself have no idea what freedom is, nor have you any intention of fighting to defend it.
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Old 19th November 2021, 01:03 AM   #3065
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Your description is ok, generally. I'd quibble that evil psychos are farther along than you realize, as they control enough of the info flow to stay out of sight, mostly, which is why your post reminded me of Jim Carey in "The Truman Show"
This is hilarious, coming as it does from someone whose own sources are a byword for bias and unreliability.
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Old 19th November 2021, 04:55 AM   #3066
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Because to be a chemotherapy the chemical needs to *reach* the cells.
The only sources I've been able to find that use the term "H2O2 therapy" have been quack alternative medicine sites.
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Old 19th November 2021, 05:00 AM   #3067
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This is hilarious, coming as it does from someone whose own sources are a byword for bias and unreliability.
Remember that Bubba is the one who claimed that maps show special alignments of place names because... reasons - but was never able to actually show a single one of these secret, in plain sight alignments that supposedly mean that super-villains control everything.
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Old 19th November 2021, 05:19 AM   #3068
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smYOb0uOnRA
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Old 19th November 2021, 05:24 AM   #3069
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
The only sources I've been able to find that use the term "H2O2 therapy" have been quack alternative medicine sites.
Exactly my point.
Sure, in a petridish cancer cells (like all other cells) will die if you douse them with H2O2.

That does not mean that it's a viable chemotherapy.
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Old 19th November 2021, 05:24 AM   #3070
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Remember that Bubba is the one who claimed that maps show special alignments of place names because... reasons - but was never able to actually show a single one of these secret, in plain sight alignments that supposedly mean that super-villains control everything.
Bubba has claimed knowledge over the years of many, many secrets that all-powerful organizations (NWO?) are keeping from the public in order to control us. Strangely, these all-powerful organizations have made no effort to prevent Bubba's dissemination of this info. A person can only wonder why that may be. Perhaps it is to the NWO's advantage to have some people falsely believe that they are not being controlled like the gullible masses. The Bubbas of the world may actually be witlessly aiding and abetting the very organizations they think they are opposing.
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Old 19th November 2021, 05:26 AM   #3071
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Exactly my point.
Sure, in a petridish cancer cells (like all other cells) will die if you douse them with H2O2.

That does not mean that it's a viable chemotherapy.
Same with bleach. Thank you Donald Trump, MD.
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Old 19th November 2021, 05:32 AM   #3072
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Remember that Bubba is the one who claimed that maps show special alignments of place names because... reasons - but was never able to actually show a single one of these secret, in plain sight alignments that supposedly mean that super-villains control everything.
Including at least one place that didn't even exist.

Then there's 'pneunomia', of course, which he posted twice.
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Old 19th November 2021, 07:26 AM   #3073
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
I bought and am reading the book that Bubba linked. The premise behind the therapeutic effect is that the hydroxyl radical borrows its electron from ferrous Iron, which is apparently used by all or most viral pathogens:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3676888/

And then it induces apoptosis in virus cells (and apparently tumor cells as well).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...9158499700292X

So while hydroxy radicals are dangerous, the presumption is that it targets pathogenic cells.


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That's a first.
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Old 19th November 2021, 08:27 AM   #3074
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It's cute watching conspiracists pretend to understand science. It's the gullible leading the ridiculous.

It's hard to believe that people actually bother to go to school for this stuff.
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Old 19th November 2021, 08:32 AM   #3075
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Same with bleach. Thank you Donald Trump, MD.
As others have noted, high explosives also can kill a virus in a petri dish, but we shouldn't put TNT in our Vick's vaporizers and inhale.
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Old 19th November 2021, 08:37 AM   #3076
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
As others have noted, high explosives also can kill a virus in a petri dish, but we shouldn't put TNT in our Vick's vaporizers and inhale.
You can't tell me what to do, fascist!


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Last edited by Foster Zygote; 19th November 2021 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 19th November 2021, 08:57 AM   #3077
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
High school biology. Youíre aware that H2O2 is used as an antiseptic in medicine, and bleach (NaOCl) isnít. Why do you think this is? Note that I am not recommending H2O2 therapy, Iím just reading about the science.

Sure it is. Never heard of Dakin's solution, have you?
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Old 19th November 2021, 09:03 AM   #3078
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Sure it is. Never heard of Dakin's solution, have you?
It's almost as if a high school biology education isn't adequate to establish one's expertise over medical science.
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Old 19th November 2021, 09:42 AM   #3079
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Since "excess deaths" are the difference between deaths and expected deaths, and since expected deaths is, by definition, an estimate, and since estimates can be gamed for political purposes, I find your logic to be less compelling
estimates are not wild guess works. Your definition of "estimate" seems like arguments Creationists put forward regarding Scientific Theories, which they think are just "wild guesswork".

EXPECTED DEATHS are the average of previous years, usually adjusted for population change.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...cess_mortality

" Eurostatís excess mortality indicator is expressed as a percentage of additional deaths in a month compared to a baseline period. In 2020, the baseline is given by average monthly deaths in the period 2016-2019. The higher the value, the more additional deaths have occurred compared to the baseline. A negative value means that fewer deaths occurred in a particular month compared with the baseline period."


So your whole NONSENSE about gaming the statistics of "expected deaths" is just total negationist nonsense.



Quote:
than the idea that, due to monetary incentives if nothing else, Covid deaths have been inflated, and Influenza deaths have been deflated.
that's just plain old Conspiracy Theory of the worst kind. Dumb conspiracy theory, btw.

And again, Excess Deaths PROVE it wrong, and just like the common Conspiracy Theory Tinfoil hat wearer, you donīt understand how the statistics work and then INVENT new excuses to not accept them.

In your case, since Excess Death statistics from Brazil and USA prove you wrong, you obviously must claim the statistics were GAMED.

Pathetic.
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Old 19th November 2021, 09:52 AM   #3080
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
The adenoviral vector vaccines are allegedly less effective than the mRNA vaccines. You can research this on your own if you want, I'm not going to google it for you.
You said LARGELY INNEFECTIVE. When I call you on that, you change your wording to just say "less effective" than mRNA vaccines.


btw
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...ines/100500394
"It found that, 14 days after a second dose of AstraZeneca or Pfizer, those vaccines were, on average, about 67 per cent and 80 per cent effective against testing positive for COVID-19.

Both vaccines' effectiveness reduced slightly over time, but Pfizer's effectiveness appeared to drop faster than AstraZeneca's. After a few months, the effectiveness levels converged."


And it's 67%. It's near the 70% mark, not 60%, just in case you are those ones that see a price of $199.99 and think "wow, just 100!!"
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