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Old 15th March 2017, 12:51 PM   #2041
Red Baron Farms
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Vixen,
Perhaps if you considered the idea that the Bible is the "word of God" is its own form of idolatry?

God didn't write the Bible, we did.

And it doesn't document our fall from grace. Rather it documents the rise of human civilization from brutish animals and their search for meaning in life. Our search for God. In many ways we are still searching for that symbolic tree of life. And not just physically to live forever, but to place a meaning for our existence beyond that of the animals at our core being.

There is so much to learn from the Bible, but you learn little from it if you get stuck in antiquated inconsistent dogma.
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Old 16th March 2017, 03:49 AM   #2042
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No it is not.
Yes it is. A god such as the one proposed by the creationists is contradictory in every aspect to the one in the bible. If we assume that a god does exist and that the bible reflects his attributes correctly then we can't conclude that said god is all knowing, all present, or all powerful. Because those attributes contradicts what's in the bible. Also, using the bible since we're still assuming it reflects his attributes accurately, we can also conclude that God isn't all loving nor just. Which is kind of the point of the thread.

And it's impossible for the proposed god that's all present and all powerful to exist because we'd have detected it already. And, no, saying that it exists outside the universe doesn't help your case. Besides, if anything exists outside the universe it might as well not exist at all.


Originally Posted by Vixen
Just as the earth is held in perfect tension in the universe, and our consciousness works co-terminously with our subconscious (we have dreams, impulses, desires), so on the spiritual level we have a balance of forces, which could be summed up as 'father son and holy ghost' as the metaphorical highly abstract concept of forces working within and between each other.
I'm not sure that this actually means anything, so I'm just going to assume that it doesn't actually mean anything.

Originally Posted by Vixen
As many people never use their full consciousness, they have no words to describe something they rarely notice, except at times of great joy or sorrow, but is always there.
More gibberish, and gibberish that's wrong.

Originally Posted by Vixen
Homo sapiens have been on the earth >250K years. In that time we have constructed highly advanced civilisations.
Yes, thanks to materialistic sciences that you sneer at. How ungrateful of you.

Originally Posted by Vixen
I see no reason why we should leave development of our higher consciousness dormant, just because a few atheists demand we conform to a 'secular' society .
...What? How does what you claim, in any way, match reality?

Originally Posted by vixen
A society full of material worship, where money and trainers are king and we worship football heroes, pop stars and celebrity film stars.
First off, atheists don't worship material things. Atheists worship nothing. Also the society, such as the one you speak of, is born out of anti-intellectualism and I'm not going out on a limb when I say that most atheists don't think very highly of people that worship 'football heroes, pop star and celebrity film star' as you put it. But you know what organization works tirelessly to promote anti-intellectualism? Religion.

Originally Posted by Vixen
Yes pagan gods were based on nature. The ancient Finnish god, Ukko was a god of thunder not dissimilar to Thor. We had some truly terrible fearsome gods whose name even today is a considered a swear word. There is a heavy metal nightclub in Helsinki named after him.
YHWY, the inspiration for the father god of Christianity, is a composite character made up of gods from older religions, some of which were nature gods. So God is a pagan god by default. And anyone that would commit genocide or command, allow, and permit it to be done in his name (as chronicled in the bible) I would call evil.

Therefore God is an evil pagan god.
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Old 16th March 2017, 05:45 PM   #2043
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Well done Mudcat you dealt with Vixen most effectively. I would like to just add something in response to the following:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixen
Just as the earth is held in perfect tension in the universe, and our consciousness works co-terminously with our subconscious (we have dreams, impulses, desires), so on the spiritual level we have a balance of forces, which could be summed up as 'father son and holy ghost' as the metaphorical highly abstract concept of forces working within and between each other.

This talk of perfection is typical of lay people not scientists. There is nothing perfect in the universe. If something was perfect, (say the Earth's orbit was a perfect circle for example), that would be something we could point at as evidence of God.
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Old 16th March 2017, 06:45 PM   #2044
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's putting a rather literalist, almost autistic, slant on it. He was born a baby because he took human form. After his circumcision, aged 12 days, we don't hear about him again until he gets lost for three days and his worried parents find him spouting off in the synagogue pitting his wits against the Jersulaem rabbis. Then there is another jump to age circa 31 when he gets baptised and begins his mission.
Apparently, there exists writings about Yeshua but they weren't included in the one book of collated tales, so you're wrong that "we don't hear about him again until..."



Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Homo sapiens have been on the earth >250K years. In that time we have constructed highly advanced civilisations. I see no reason why we should leave development of our higher consciousness dormant, just because a few atheists demand we conform to a 'secular' society .
"A few"? It may come as a surprise to you, but I'd bet that nearly every atheist 'demands' we all conform to a 'secular' society; there are many thousands of theists who 'demand' the same, by the way. You really have it backwards — there are a few (probably conservative and fundamentalist) theists who 'demand' we conform to a 'religious' society.


Quote:
A society full of material worship, where money and trainers are king and we worship football heroes, pop stars and celebrity film stars.
LOL Yeah, if you're talking about the United States, tell me — who again makes up the largest percentage of the population: theists or non-theists? So is it really all those nasty atheists who are material worshipers who make football stars kings and such? If what (I think) you're trying to say is true, then the prisons, for example, would be overflowing with those nasty atheists, but the opposite is true. In fact, from what I understand, there are plenty of jailhouse conversions to religion but not many who fall away from the faith.


Quote:
Yes pagan gods were based on nature. The ancient Finnish god, Ukko was a god of thunder not dissimilar to Thor. We had some truly terrible fearsome gods whose name even today is a considered a swear word. There is a heavy metal nightclub in Helsinki named after him.
So? All gods are made up, including yours. Whatever kind that may be. Some are based on nature, some on humans, some on animals, some on... on and on.
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Old 16th March 2017, 06:50 PM   #2045
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We know Jesus Christ saved humanity and that is why God is good.

Thank you Jesus!
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Old 16th March 2017, 07:23 PM   #2046
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
We know Jesus Christ saved humanity and that is why God is good.

Thank you Jesus!
Saved em from what, exactly?
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Old 16th March 2017, 07:25 PM   #2047
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
We know Jesus Christ saved humanity and that is why God is good.

Thank you Jesus!
How do you know that?
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Old 16th March 2017, 07:30 PM   #2048
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
How do you know that?
His preachers told him so according to a book they may or may not have read. What else?
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Old 16th March 2017, 07:34 PM   #2049
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Saved em from what, exactly?
From what he is going to do to you if you do not let him save you..........

*need hell fire emoticon*
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Old 16th March 2017, 07:40 PM   #2050
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It's the jesus protection racket. That's a nice life you got there. Would be a pity to see it burn up, if ya know what I mean.
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Old 16th March 2017, 08:07 PM   #2051
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Old 16th March 2017, 08:09 PM   #2052
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
His preachers told him so according to a book they may or may not have read. What else?
Please allow him to answer for himself. Thanks.
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Old 16th March 2017, 09:21 PM   #2053
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
We know Jesus Christ saved humanity and that is why God is good.

Thank you Jesus!
Saved humanity from what exactly? Here, again, Christians find themselves at odds with their own "Holy Book" because Jesus (that one guy in the bible that Christians apparently never listen to) said that you could keep your sins, you'd just be considered least in the kingdom of heaven.

But Christians seem to think that Jesus saves humanity from hell, which I suppose is real nice of him... Except that he didn't because you can still be cast into hell if you don't accept Jesus as your savior which could mean that you're going to be tortured for all eternity for exercising that free will that God supposedly gifted you with or simply cut off from God for the rest of eternity.

But what is eternal life with God like? Well if the bible is any indication, then you get to spend all eternity praising and worshiping a capricious and mean spirited bully without any rest from morning to night. I submit to you that that is true hell.

So why are you praising such a thing as good again?
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Old 16th March 2017, 09:43 PM   #2054
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
We know Jesus Christ saved humanity and that is why God is good.

Thank you Jesus!

I have to admit I really struggle with this Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins idea.

The Catholic Church screws this up a bit by insisting the sinners make confessions and pay for their sins again - money in the box and some hail Marys.

They also have this purgatory thing were the soul goes to suffer for a while to be cleansed before getting to the good place.

For a good while a shorter stay in purgatory could be arranged by buying "indulgences" from the church - good money spinner that one.

So as I see it Jesus dying on the cross wasn't the complete deal but only part way.

Can you wrap this up for us The Big Dog into some coherent form?
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Old 16th March 2017, 09:47 PM   #2055
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post

But what is eternal life with God like? Well if the bible is any indication, then you get to spend all eternity praising and worshiping a capricious and mean spirited bully without any rest from morning to night. I submit to you that that is true hell.

Yes well I think I could do that for maybe half a day and then say "Get me out of here."
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Old 16th March 2017, 10:03 PM   #2056
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I have to admit I really struggle with this Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins idea.

The Catholic Church screws this up a bit by insisting the sinners make confessions and pay for their sins again - money in the box and some hail Marys.

They also have this purgatory thing were the soul goes to suffer for a while to be cleansed before getting to the good place.

For a good while a shorter stay in purgatory could be arranged by buying "indulgences" from the church - good money spinner that one.

So as I see it Jesus dying on the cross wasn't the complete deal but only part way.

Can you wrap this up for us The Big Dog into some coherent form?
There's no coherent form, but there's poetry:

Quote:
Mr. Edwards and the Spider

Robert Lowell

From The Kenyon Review, Winter 1946, Vol. VIII, No. 1

I saw the spiders marching through the air,
Swimming from tree to tree that mildewed day
In latter August when the hay
Came creaking to the barn. But where
The wind is westerly,
Where gnarled November makes the spiders fly
Into the apparitions of the sky,
They purpose nothing but their ease and die
Urgently beating east to sunrise and the sea;

What are we in the hands of the great God?
It was in vain you set up thorn and briar
In battle array against the fire
And treason crackling in your blood;
For the wild thorns grow tame
And will do nothing to oppose the flame;
Your lacerations tell the losing game
You play against a sickness past your cure.
How will the hands be strong? How will the heart endure?

A very little thing, a little worm,
Or hourglass-blazoned spider, it is said,
Can kill a tiger. Will the dead
Hold up his mirror and affirm
To the four winds the smell
And flash of his authority? It’s well
If God who holds you to the pit of hell,
Much as one holds a spider, will destroy,
Baffle and dissipate your soul. As a small boy

On Windsor Marsh, I saw the spider die
When thrown into the bowels of fierce fire:
There’s no long struggle, no desire
To get up on its feet and fly
It stretches out its feet
And dies. This is the sinner’s last retreat;
Yes, and no strength exerted on the heat
Then sinews the abolished will, when sick
And full of burning, it will whistle on a brick.

But who can plumb the sinking of that soul?
Josiah Hawley, picture yourself cast
Into a brick-kiln where the blast
Fans your quick vitals to a coal—
If measured by a glass,
How long would it seem burning! Let there pass
A minute, ten, ten trillion; but the blaze
Is infinite, eternal: this is death,
To die and know it. This is the Black Widow, death.
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Old 17th March 2017, 01:58 AM   #2057
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes well I think I could do that for maybe half a day and then say "Get me out of here."
You're a stronger person than I. I doubt I'd make past the first hour.

You know I've always found it interesting that if there was someone like God with all his personality traits, most people would have no compunction in saying that they have something wrong with them in the head.

And if someone started going around committing genocide and other atrocities that God was said to have done in the Bible, most people would have no compunction in calling them evil (as they should be).

And yet God is considered perfect, divine, and the source of morality. It's enough to make me wonder if religious people were all dropped on their heads as children.
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Old 17th March 2017, 07:27 AM   #2058
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Saved em from what, exactly?
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
From what he is going to do to you if you do not let him save you..........

*need hell fire emoticon*
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It's the jesus protection racket. That's a nice life you got there. Would be a pity to see it burn up, if ya know what I mean.
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Thank you gentlemen. That got my morning of to a good start.
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Old 17th March 2017, 09:38 AM   #2059
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Vixen,
Perhaps if you considered the idea that the Bible is the "word of God" is its own form of idolatry?

God didn't write the Bible, we did.

And it doesn't document our fall from grace. Rather it documents the rise of human civilization from brutish animals and their search for meaning in life. Our search for God. In many ways we are still searching for that symbolic tree of life. And not just physically to live forever, but to place a meaning for our existence beyond that of the animals at our core being.

There is so much to learn from the Bible, but you learn little from it if you get stuck in antiquated inconsistent dogma.
That is a pretty nice response.
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Old 17th March 2017, 01:28 PM   #2060
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
We know Jesus Christ saved humanity and that is why God is good.

Thank you Jesus!
From what?
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Old 17th March 2017, 02:08 PM   #2061
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Vixen,
Perhaps if you considered the idea that the Bible is the "word of God" is its own form of idolatry?

God didn't write the Bible, we did.

And it doesn't document our fall from grace. Rather it documents the rise of human civilization from brutish animals and their search for meaning in life. Our search for God. In many ways we are still searching for that symbolic tree of life. And not just physically to live forever, but to place a meaning for our existence beyond that of the animals at our core being.

There is so much to learn from the Bible, but you learn little from it if you get stuck in antiquated inconsistent dogma.


Nicely said.
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Old 17th March 2017, 02:23 PM   #2062
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
You're a stronger person than I. I doubt I'd make past the first hour.

You know I've always found it interesting that if there was someone like God with all his personality traits, most people would have no compunction in saying that they have something wrong with them in the head.

And if someone started going around committing genocide and other atrocities that God was said to have done in the Bible, most people would have no compunction in calling them evil (as they should be).

And yet God is considered perfect, divine, and the source of morality. It's enough to make me wonder if religious people were all dropped on their heads as children.

You could be forgiven for thinking that, but almost certainly given a severe verbal pummelling as children.

Theists who read their sacred scriptures, (and this is a small percentage of them), have vision that is enhanced by faith, so when they read stuff like God killing all the first born in Egypt, they see this as an act of goodness. How can you argue with that?

Theists have no problem with the idea their God has this need to be exalted and praised continuously. This apparently is the whole reason for our existence. God made us because he had this need to be grovelled to.

The Abrahamic God seems to have some kind of dexterity problem as he can't make things quite right. First the angels and then man - so many turning out bad.

We have to conclude that God is bad:

- He is extraordinarily cruel.
- He has a need for many to grovel to him.
- He is also a bad worker.
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Old 17th March 2017, 02:57 PM   #2063
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Unfortunately, the god of the Bible has painted himself into a corner. Many if not most theists are convinced that God has created us with "free will," and that true free will requires that he cannot prove his own existence. Devotion is no good if we're sure. We must have faith. This strikes one as a dubious conclusion, as we are, in some sense, free even though we are assured that many things exist, and it makes one wonder what kind of ego this god has, that he cannot accept praise and devotion from the certain, but only from those who are free to doubt but too needy or too deluded to do so. Maybe heaven is too small for everyone, so this is a way of culling the candidates. It would explain why Universalism is seen by so many as a heresy.... but be that as it may...it means that God, as most theists would have him, has decreed that he himself can perform only the cheesiest and most dubious of miracles. Here comes poor old God, with this self-inflicted handicap, needing every once in a while to reassure those who are already faithful that he's really on their side, so he burns a bush or heals a psychosomatic illness or imprints Jesus on a slice of toast, but he can't replace a lost toe or pile two stones on top of each other in front of a camera.

For an all wise all knowing all this and all that sort of creator, it seems odd of god to have done such a shoddy job of setting things up.
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Old 17th March 2017, 04:00 PM   #2064
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Please allow him to answer for himself. Thanks.
Say what? Did I, by posting, somehow prevent him from ever responding? I stopped him in some way from typing on a keyboard or viewing your post? Please explain why you decided to express your irritation with my response alone rather than include the others who did the exact same thing. Thanks.
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Old 17th March 2017, 04:11 PM   #2065
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
That is a pretty nice response.
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Nicely said.
Thanks. Your kind words mean a lot to me. Really.
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Old 20th March 2017, 01:10 PM   #2066
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Thanks. Your kind words mean a lot to me. Really.
Don't worry, we'll get back to bullying you after Spring Break.

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Old 20th March 2017, 01:15 PM   #2067
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I think it's fairly clear that this thread is trying to push a Satanist Agenda.
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Old 20th March 2017, 01:37 PM   #2068
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I think it's fairly clear that this thread is trying to push a Satanist Agenda.
Who are you to judge?

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Old 20th March 2017, 02:20 PM   #2069
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I think it's fairly clear that this thread is trying to push a Satanist Agenda.

Yes, I am quite keen to get into some Satanism myself. Am already half way there as a baby eating atheist so might as well go the whole hog.
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Old 20th March 2017, 02:22 PM   #2070
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes, I am quite keen to get into some Satanism myself. Am already half way there as a baby eating atheist so might as well go the whole hog.
Baby eating? Roast them slowly on a spit. It's the only way.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:03 PM   #2071
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Say what? Did I, by posting, somehow prevent him from ever responding? I stopped him in some way from typing on a keyboard or viewing your post? Please explain why you decided to express your irritation with my response alone rather than include the others who did the exact same thing. Thanks.
I guess it's pretty much academic right now, eh?
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:48 PM   #2072
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We have to conclude that God is bad:

- He is extraordinarily cruel.
- He has a need for many to grovel to him.
- He is also a bad worker.
Oh yeah...and he always needs more money! God can create the universe and resurrect the dead, but he just can't seem to handle money - which is the root of all evil (according to Xtians), by the way.
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Old 20th March 2017, 10:01 PM   #2073
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I guess it's pretty much academic right now, eh?
Heh, yeah, looks like. Anyway, no hard feelings. My ire has no reason to be hurled in your direction.
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Old 21st March 2017, 05:17 AM   #2074
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Baby eating? Roast them slowly on a spit. It's the only way.
It's said the Crusaders boiled them.
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Old 21st March 2017, 05:43 AM   #2075
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
It's said the Crusaders boiled them.
Meh. That destroys the flavour.
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Old 21st March 2017, 11:23 AM   #2076
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Meh. That destroys the flavour.
And makes them soggy.
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Old 21st March 2017, 01:21 PM   #2077
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
It's said the Crusaders boiled them.
They should have roasted first so they could make stock.
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Old 21st March 2017, 01:31 PM   #2078
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
It's said the Crusaders boiled them.
Surely just the Brittish Crusaders, right?
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Old 21st March 2017, 01:40 PM   #2079
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Surely just the Brittish Crusaders, right?
I gathered it was "all" of them, a collective sort of thing. IIR, the children were boiled but adults were roasted. How the stock was treated was not mentioned. And don't call me Surely.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:07 PM   #2080
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Surely just the Brittish Crusaders, right?
Didn't they exit the whole thing?
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