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Old 17th March 2017, 07:03 AM   #41
fuelair
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well it is obvious that you did not read the *********** article.
You would be amazed at how many articles many of us do not read for good reason - but in my earlier days I read much on it and made very logical distinctions and decisions based on such - as well as observing the actions and speech of many religious. I tend to avoid articles (etc.) that are essentially special pleading or arguments from credulity (and /or incredulity).............
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Old 17th March 2017, 07:06 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh hell yeah, there is no possible way in hell that the author of that piece you linked would not instantly judge me as horrible.

Which is obviously why that glurge is garbage.

Oh wait, I forgot to check my privilege.
Maybe you can take it on board as carry-on!!! How big is it???
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Old 17th March 2017, 09:40 AM   #43
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I know a ton of great Christians. I even love some of them. Most Christians are not a problem EXCEPT they are the only ones that can fix the problems of the far right's intrusion into our lives and politics. We (atheists) can not. We can point out the problems, explain our issues and make sure we are visible but we hold no power as atheists in the political arena. We are the enemy to some, an annoyance to others and understood by a few.

This doesn't depress me too much as the tide is slowly changing. Patience is our friend and (my opinion) being overly confrontational puts up too many walls. Who was more effective in obtaining civil rights? Martin Luther King or Malcolm X? Both confronted the problems but their styles were miles apart.

Believe me, I am not suggesting we shut up and take it but we need to be very aware of how we sound. Yeah, we shouldn't have to tippy toe around the religious all the time but if we focus on the long game, we will have to tippy toe...often.

For me, the long game is like much of Europe. No gives a flying rip what your religious beliefs are and it has zero influence or impact on the politics. That's my heaven.
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Old 17th March 2017, 09:51 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
I live in Aberdeen. The first Episcopal Bishop in the colonies following the successful War of Independence was created about 200 yards from where I am standing now. The Archbishop of Canterbury had refused him recognition, but the Scottish Episcopal Church had the independence and the right to do it. All of which said this was NOT the Church of Scotland, which was and is Presbyterian. We don't even get Bishops in the House of Lords. Another reason for indyref2
Thank you for the correction!

As I said, it has been some time since I cared much about church history, but I rather liked the idea that the Scottish were willing to help out the rebellious colonies after the War.
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Old 17th March 2017, 04:21 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
EVERYWHERE, obviously.

People who don't think exactly like this guy are "horrible."

The First Universal Church of Check your Privilege.
Enjoy the vacation!! Florida is nice this time of year!!!!!!!!
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:44 AM   #46
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And, relax, fight the compulsion to hurry back!!!!! Work on your tan!!! Try some surfing and some surf and turf!!!
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:00 AM   #47
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I wonder if there is some regional influences on arthwollipot's experiences? When I lived in the South East, the horrible types were much more common than the kind arthwollipot describes in his first post.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:11 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by LarianLeQuella View Post
I wonder if there is some regional influences on arthwollipot's experiences? When I lived in the South East, the horrible types were much more common than the kind arthwollipot describes in his first post.
There certainly are regional differences. If you are comparing the American South East to Australia (iirc, that's where arthwollipot lives), you will find a whole lot more bible thumpers in the US.
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Old 20th March 2017, 02:29 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
There certainly are regional differences. If you are comparing the American South East to Australia (iirc, that's where arthwollipot lives), you will find a whole lot more bible thumpers in the US.

True, we don't have anything like the Bible Belt in Australia. We have a couple of small blobs I suspect. One of these is in Gympie Queensland I think.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:53 PM   #50
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Southern Baptists. if there is a more horrible form of Xtians, then I haven't seen them...yet. The whole Southern Baptists Religion was founded during the time of the American Civil War as a way to justify Slavery. Does that not suck...or what?

With such bad beginnings, it is no wonder that Southern Baptists are such rotten people. Every one of them.
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Old 21st March 2017, 12:55 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Southern Baptists. if there is a more horrible form of Xtians, then I haven't seen them...yet. The whole Southern Baptists Religion was founded during the time of the American Civil War as a way to justify Slavery. Does that not suck...or what?

With such bad beginnings, it is no wonder that Southern Baptists are such rotten people. Every one of them.
Is this really true? I honestly didn't know this! Is this what the Northern /Southern split was about? Wow
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:04 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Southern Baptists. if there is a more horrible form of Xtians, then I haven't seen them...yet. The whole Southern Baptists Religion was founded during the time of the American Civil War as a way to justify Slavery. Does that not suck...or what?

With such bad beginnings, it is no wonder that Southern Baptists are such rotten people. Every one of them.
Hmm, this isn't exactly a ringing endorsement, is it? Where are all the nice Christians?
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:25 AM   #53
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@OP I'd rather encourage believers to see religious history as the (1) track record of humans attempting to codify morals/ethics, what has consistently (2) caused problems is when single interpretations of any particular persuasion go absolutist and swing clubs or swords, and (3) so the best thing is to drop it all and focus on becoming better people. Once the meme that there is a source for foundational fixed authority dies, maybe this will help people to stop attempting to use such nonsense in politics as well.

God-given rights or duties lead to god-mandated trouble.
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Old 25th March 2017, 07:56 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Southern Baptists. if there is a more horrible form of Xtians, then I haven't seen them...yet. The whole Southern Baptists Religion was founded during the time of the American Civil War as a way to justify Slavery. Does that not suck...or what?

With such bad beginnings, it is no wonder that Southern Baptists are such rotten people. Every one of them.
I live right in the buckle of the Bible Belt. The SBC has a whole host of vile official positions, but I know far more good and kind Southern Baptists than I know rotten ones.
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Old 25th March 2017, 02:06 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
I live right in the buckle of the Bible Belt. The SBC has a whole host of vile official positions, but I know far more good and kind Southern Baptists than I know rotten ones.

Interesting that they can live with those "vile official positions" and still indentify as members of the church.
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Old 25th March 2017, 10:43 PM   #56
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Which all supports my belief that a majority of Christians are actually nice, but the nasty ones get all of the attention. You notice the ones that stand out, but you don't notice the ones that are just standing quietly in the background not bothering anybody.

The thing is, the ones that stand out are a tiny minority, and we shouldn't be basing our opinions of all of them on the behaviour of that minority.
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Old 26th March 2017, 03:09 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Which all supports my belief that a majority of Christians are actually nice, but the nasty ones get all of the attention. You notice the ones that stand out, but you don't notice the ones that are just standing quietly in the background not bothering anybody.
Perhaps if, instead of standing quietly in the background not bothering anybody, they did more to dispute and counter the activities of the nasty ones we would notice them more? Just a thought.
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Old 26th March 2017, 09:24 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Perhaps if, instead of standing quietly in the background not bothering anybody, they did more to dispute and counter the activities of the nasty ones we would notice them more? Just a thought.

Well, that is exactly the point of the article linked in the OP.
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Old 26th March 2017, 05:42 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Perhaps if, instead of standing quietly in the background not bothering anybody, they did more to dispute and counter the activities of the nasty ones we would notice them more? Just a thought.
First: you're still blaming the majority for the behaviour of the minority. Blaming them for their inaction, but you're still holding them responsible for bad activities when they aren't.

Second: even if they did do more to counter and dispute the nasty activities, you still wouldn't notice them. Because...

Third: they do.
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Old 27th March 2017, 07:25 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Interesting that they can live with those "vile official positions" and still indentify as members of the church.
Why? It happens all the time. Not just for religions (and denominations thereof, like Catholicism), but with non-religious organizations as well such as political parties or even nationalities.
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Old 27th March 2017, 02:35 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Why? It happens all the time. Not just for religions (and denominations thereof, like Catholicism), but with non-religious organizations as well such as political parties or even nationalities.

Well no argument with that as I have observed it many times myself. Many self indentify with political parties and churches, with scant knowledge about the stance of the party or church on many issues. They just listen to the speeches or sermons and say aye or amen at the end. I just find it interesting that some can just move through life, and almost shield themselves from knowledge.
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Old 27th March 2017, 08:46 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well no argument with that as I have observed it many times myself. Many self indentify with political parties and churches, with scant knowledge about the stance of the party or church on many issues. They just listen to the speeches or sermons and say aye or amen at the end. I just find it interesting that some can just move through life, and almost shield themselves from knowledge.
People are, at heart, lazy. They won't go out of their way to find things out. Most people are content simply cruising through life only acknowledging those things that are put directly in their path.
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Old 27th March 2017, 11:20 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
People are, at heart, lazy. They won't go out of their way to find things out. Most people are content simply cruising through life only acknowledging those things that are put directly in their path.

Once again I find we are in agreement about something arthwollipot. We must stop this, people will begin to talk.
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Old 28th March 2017, 02:46 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Once again I find we are in agreement about something arthwollipot. We must stop this, people will begin to talk.
Yeah, this feels weird.
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Old 28th March 2017, 04:04 PM   #65
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In general, the kindness of Christians seems to inversely proportional to how vocal they are about being Christian.
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Old 28th March 2017, 04:12 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
In general, the kindness of Christians seems to inversely proportional to how vocal they are about being Christian.
This!

I know so many great people that also happen to be Christian / Republican / Muslim / Tech Specialists / outside my tribe. The obnoxious ones tend to be vocal. The rest just quietly live their worldview. I hope they feel the same about atheists like me. I tend to quietly live my worldview, too, when the obnoxious ones let me.
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Old 28th March 2017, 04:33 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by pattylt View Post
This!

I know so many great people that also happen to be Christian / Republican / Muslim / Tech Specialists / outside my tribe. The obnoxious ones tend to be vocal. The rest just quietly live their worldview. I hope they feel the same about atheists like me. I tend to quietly live my worldview, too, when the obnoxious ones let me.
This is at least in part because we define being vocal about religion as obnoxious.

Anyway, a person can have obnoxious views and not talk about them. They're still obnoxious.
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Old 28th March 2017, 04:41 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
In general, the kindness of Christians seems to inversely proportional to how vocal they are about being Christian.
Exactly my experience too.

In fact there are several passages in the New Testament commanding true Christians to not be bombastic about being Christians:

"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven"

"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

Not to mention passages such as:

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves"

"Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other's faults because of your love."

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

"But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere"
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Old 28th March 2017, 04:57 PM   #69
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On the other hand, there's Matthew 28:18-20.

Quote:
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
This was given to me when I was a churchgoer as the reason to evangelise. Because Jesus told us to. The New International Version calls this "The Great Commission".
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Old 29th March 2017, 07:27 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This is at least in part because we define being vocal about religion as obnoxious.
A minor part though. I've never met someone who brought Jesus into normal non-religious conversation and didn't turn out to be a nasty person. Plenty of nice normal people I've met I later incidentally learned were Christians because when I asked them where they were going one day, they said "Church", or something like that.
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Old 29th March 2017, 07:47 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
On the other hand, there's Matthew 28:18-20.



This was given to me when I was a churchgoer as the reason to evangelise. Because Jesus told us to. The New International Version calls this "The Great Commission".
To which many of the Christians I know would respond with the words often attributed to St. Francis, "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary."

Or, as better explained in his actual words:

“It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching.”

“...As for me, I desire this privilege from the Lord, that never may I have any privilege from man, except to do reverence to all, and to convert the world by obedience to the Holy Rule rather by example than by word.”
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Old 10th April 2017, 04:34 PM   #72
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List of 'nice' things the church I belong to does:
Makes 200 meals a month for poor kids at a local school who turn up without lunch.
Raised $40,000 to build a classroom for a school in Timor Leste.
Provides food and assistance for poor and homeless people who turn up regularly at the front door.
Provides financial assistance and emotional/practical support to victims of domestic abuse who come to the church to attend playgroups.
Fixes up houses and yards for older folk in the area who no longer have the capacity to properly look after their property.

This is off the top of my head, and does not include all the individual things that church members are doing to help their community. This is from a 'smallish' church of around 150 people.

Of course, non of this ever makes the 'news'.
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Old 10th April 2017, 04:52 PM   #73
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If you delved into Christian culture you would find that there is plenty of disputation.

The issue is what the media finds newsworthy in relation to Christianity. For example, gay marriage - the media will nearly always find Christians opposing this and give them airtime. Abortion, the same.

On the other hand, when was the last time you saw the media invite a Christian commentator on to speak about economics, injustice, or the poor, even though they are issues that are at the heart of both the Old and New Testaments?
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Old 11th April 2017, 07:17 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I used to be a nice Christian. Now I'm a nice Skeptic.
I'm a nice skeptic who has gladly raised his kids as Evangelical (not what it sounds like. AKA: Catholicism Lite) Lutherans. Hang out with old hippies, get a grounding in the national culture, but not go nuts about it. It's worked.
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Old 11th April 2017, 07:37 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Democracy Simulator View Post
If you delved into Christian culture you would find that there is plenty of disputation.

The issue is what the media finds newsworthy in relation to Christianity. For example, gay marriage - the media will nearly always find Christians opposing this and give them airtime. Abortion, the same.

On the other hand, when was the last time you saw the media invite a Christian commentator on to speak about economics, injustice, or the poor, even though they are issues that are at the heart of both the Old and New Testaments?
The Prosperity Gospel is pretty terrible, but the world could certainly use more Liberation Theology.
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When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus

"Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni
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