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Old 14th March 2017, 04:54 PM   #1401
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If everyone has the same amount of money: When he pays for the work of others and when he is paid for his work is the same it is stupid to use money and useless. It is just to give from one hand and take back from the other. When you give 10 dollars to a fellow and take back from that fellow 10 dollar, it is useless to do that, i don't understand why you can't understand that, that's easy to figure out.
Right, that's why people get paid $8.25 an hour to clean toilets and a brain surgeon might make thousands of dollars an hour.

It doesn't make any sense for someone with extensive training and expertise to get paid the same as someone who may be uneducated and unskilled.

Maybe Gaetan is finally getting it.
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Old 14th March 2017, 05:14 PM   #1402
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Right, that's why people get paid $8.25 an hour to clean toilets and a brain surgeon might make thousands of dollars an hour.

It doesn't make any sense for someone with extensive training and expertise to get paid the same as someone who may be uneducated and unskilled.

Maybe Gaetan is finally getting it.
This is not right that a guy who study more gets more paid. why would it. When the guy studies the toilet cleaner paid his teacher. You don't know what is justice.
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Old 14th March 2017, 07:17 PM   #1403
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Can you be taught how to do brain surgery in 10 minutes?
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Old 14th March 2017, 07:43 PM   #1404
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Can you be taught how to do brain surgery in 10 minutes?
Not ten minute but maybe a couple of hour, just to see how he does it a couple of times it is good enough. What i say is that there is no reason why a toilet cleaner makes less money than a surgeon. That the propaganda rich put in your head but it isn't right.
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Old 14th March 2017, 10:42 PM   #1405
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Not ten minute but maybe a couple of hour, just to see how he does it a couple of times it is good enough. What i say is that there is no reason why a toilet cleaner makes less money than a surgeon. That the propaganda rich put in your head but it isn't right.
What? One can learn neurosurgery in a couple of hours? Is that your claim? Really?
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Old 15th March 2017, 02:58 AM   #1406
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What? One can learn neurosurgery in a couple of hours? Is that your claim? Really?
Come on. A saw, a kitchen knife, some pliers. Tube of superglue to put the bits back.

How hard can it be?
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Old 15th March 2017, 05:16 AM   #1407
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What? One can learn neurosurgery in a couple of hours? Is that your claim? Really?
Well, to be fair, brain surgery of a hundred years ago, the psych ward lobotomy, could probably be taught in a couple of hours. It's all that other doctoring stuff that takes years of schooling to master.
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Old 15th March 2017, 05:54 AM   #1408
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Come on. A saw, a kitchen knife, some pliers. Tube of superglue to put the bits back.

How hard can it be?
All you need for a medical emergency is boiling water.
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Old 15th March 2017, 06:31 AM   #1409
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
All you need for a medical emergency is boiling water.
I thought that was for delivering babies?

Although boiled meat is nasty, I prefer mine roasted.
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Old 15th March 2017, 07:16 AM   #1410
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I thought that was for delivering babies?
It's to make placenta soup to help the mother recover.

Not sure why I felt the need to contribute that.
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Old 15th March 2017, 08:19 AM   #1411
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It's to make placenta soup to help the mother recover.

Not sure why I felt the need to contribute that.
That is because you, like myself, cannot fathom the whole "placenta party" phenomenon. It's just inexplicable.
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:10 AM   #1412
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
This is not right that a guy who study more gets more paid. why would it. When the guy studies the toilet cleaner paid his teacher. You don't know what is justice.
So what is justice?

How about you build my house and provide the building materials? In exchange I'll bring in your mail and mow your lawn.
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Old 17th March 2017, 04:49 AM   #1413
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That is because you, like myself, cannot fathom the whole "placenta party" phenomenon. It's just inexplicable.
And since then I've learned the scientific data doesn't support that eating the placenta helps anything. Meaning all those people who have participated in that ritual are just gullible.
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Old 17th March 2017, 05:18 AM   #1414
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What if Gaetan's utopia was made real by the labor of robot slaves?

We get rid of money and replace it with "consumer credits" which can be traded for housing, clothing and consumer items. Education, transportation and Healthcare are all free,and nothing in particular is required of any individual to live a very comfortable existence.

Then to incentivize individuals to contribute above and beyond, to become the planners, designers, doctors, scientists and teachers that are necessary to maintain and advance our civilization, are rewarded with reproductive credits, allowing them to have more children than the people who don't want to or are unable to produce.
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Old 20th March 2017, 11:59 AM   #1415
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
We get rid of money and replace it with "consumer credits" which can be traded for housing, clothing and consumer items. Education, transportation and Healthcare are all free,and nothing in particular is required of any individual to live a very comfortable existence.

Then to incentivize individuals to contribute above and beyond, to become the planners, designers, doctors, scientists and teachers that are necessary to maintain and advance our civilization, are rewarded with reproductive credits, allowing them to have more children than the people who don't want to or are unable to produce.
Right so now instead if accumulating money, I will work to amass consumer credits?

But how will we feed starving Ethiopians with consumer credits?
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Old 20th March 2017, 02:40 PM   #1416
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Right so now instead if accumulating money, I will work to amass consumer credits?

But how will we feed starving Ethiopians with consumer credits?
Robot slaves. They do all the work.
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Old 21st March 2017, 12:10 AM   #1417
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Robot slaves. They do all the work.
So if I own more robots, I can collect more consumer credits and be "wealthy"?

Doesn't that damage gaetan's no money world?

He seems to assume that a no money worl will chage nothing except that there's no money.
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Old 21st March 2017, 05:18 AM   #1418
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
So if I own more robots, I can collect more consumer credits and be "wealthy"?
Robot slaves provide the labor that produces the wealth to afford a basic wage for everyone regardless of their personal contribution.

You want to spend all your time surfing, playing video games, or watching TV? Go ahead, the robot slaves will make sure the toilet gets cleaned.

On the other hand, if you contribute by becoming a doctor and performing work the robots can't do, or become an engineer who designs better robots, or even an artist who makes music or literature that many people enjoy, you can be compensated above and beyond the basic wage everyone gets.


Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Doesn't that damage gaetan's no money world?
So? We can expand the discussion beyond just telling Gaetan that his ideas won't work.

Gaetan thinks the problem is money itself, but the real problem is that not everyone's needs are met. Getting rid of money doesn't solve that, but increasing the overall productivity of society can.
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Old 21st March 2017, 06:48 AM   #1419
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Robot slaves provide the labor that produces the wealth to afford a basic wage for everyone regardless of their personal contribution.

You want to spend all your time surfing, playing video games, or watching TV? Go ahead, the robot slaves will make sure the toilet gets cleaned.

On the other hand, if you contribute by becoming a doctor and performing work the robots can't do, or become an engineer who designs better robots, or even an artist who makes music or literature that many people enjoy, you can be compensated above and beyond the basic wage everyone gets.




So? We can expand the discussion beyond just telling Gaetan that his ideas won't work.

Gaetan thinks the problem is money itself, but the real problem is that not everyone's needs are met. Getting rid of money doesn't solve that, but increasing the overall productivity of society can.
I don't disagree with that as such. Nevertheless, it is Gaetan's contention that all of those mundane tasks will somehow vanish if money is abolished. Quite obviously, were money abolished, value would simply transfer to other commodities. "My car is broken, can you fix my car?" "Sure, gimme a ham."
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:20 AM   #1420
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Robot slaves provide the labor that produces the wealth to afford a basic wage for everyone regardless of their personal contribution.

You want to spend all your time surfing, playing video games, or watching TV? Go ahead, the robot slaves will make sure the toilet gets cleaned.

On the other hand, if you contribute by becoming a doctor and performing work the robots can't do, or become an engineer who designs better robots, or even an artist who makes music or literature that many people enjoy, you can be compensated above and beyond the basic wage everyone gets.

So? We can expand the discussion beyond just telling Gaetan that his ideas won't work.

Gaetan thinks the problem is money itself, but the real problem is that not everyone's needs are met. Getting rid of money doesn't solve that, but increasing the overall productivity of society can.
I agree that robots could possibly increase society's productivity to some degree. But there are so many tasks that still need to be done that robots cannot do. I think the "wealth" or unequal distribution of resources would simply shift to the people who create and control the robots.
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Old 21st March 2017, 11:20 AM   #1421
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I don't think the unequal distribution of resources is a problem that needs to be solved.

If there are people who don't have food, shelter, Healthcare, etc., those are problems to be solved. If one person is wealthy when others are merely well off? That's not a problem.
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:14 PM   #1422
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The happiest countries have the smaller gap between rich and low income and it says that employment is also a cause of happiness. When you redistribute the money there is low gap between rich and low income and it is the same than to abolish money, it also says that people are happy when they work and you fellows says that no one would work in a no money world then it doesn't make sense according to scientific studies. Why people wouldn't work if it makes them happy.

The U.S. Declaration of Independence inscribed as a fundamental right “the pursuit of happiness,” but Norway has taken that goal most to heart.
The Scandinavian nation of 5 million, known for its spectacular fjords, reindeer and “Midnight Sun,” ranks No. 1 among 155 countries rated for happiness in a United Nations report out Monday.
It helps that Norway, which moved up from fourth place last year to dethrone Denmark, has oil wealth. That boosted the per person annual income, as measured by economic output, to more than $100,000 — nearly double that of the United States. It also helps that it has a low unemployment rate slightly below the U.S. (4.7%) and low income inequality — the gap between the richest and poor citizens is one-third as large as that in the U.S.....Work plays a key role, as unemployment causes a big drop in happiness.

http://jewel92.com/happiest-countrie...where-we-rank/

Last edited by Gaetan; 21st March 2017 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 21st March 2017, 11:04 PM   #1423
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The happiest countries have the smaller gap between rich and low income and it says that employment is also a cause of happiness. When you redistribute the money there is low gap between rich and low income and it is the same than to abolish money
http://jewel92.com/happiest-countrie...where-we-rank/
In Ethiopia, there is little income disparity among people but they are starving and having difficulty in producing food for themselves.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:56 AM   #1424
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Gaetanland isn't even on that list. I wonder why?
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Old 22nd March 2017, 06:32 AM   #1425
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
In Ethiopia, there is little income disparity among people but they are starving and having difficulty in producing food for themselves.
Ethiopia has probably one of the biggest gap between rich and poor.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 07:24 AM   #1426
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Ethiopia has probably one of the biggest gap between rich and poor.
Why don't those Ethiopian "poors" grow their own food?
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Old 22nd March 2017, 09:44 AM   #1427
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Ethiopia has probably one of the biggest gap between rich and poor.
You claim that 1% of the world's population controls 99% of the earth's wealth. That includes the US and other major countries. Why would it be any different in Ethiopia?

Many people in Ethiopia have no money but they don't seem to be as happy and content as you claim they would be in a no money world.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 10:23 AM   #1428
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
You claim that 1% of the world's population controls 99% of the earth's wealth. That includes the US and other major countries. Why would it be any different in Ethiopia?

Many people in Ethiopia have no money but they don't seem to be as happy and content as you claim they would be in a no money world.
In a money world you need investment to buy resources to progress but in a world of no money resources are free and as the scientific study says working makes people happy.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 10:27 AM   #1429
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I'm sure working for nothing whilst starving won't make many people happy
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:51 PM   #1430
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I'm sure working for nothing whilst starving won't make many people happy
The science says that:

Work plays a key role, as unemployment causes a big drop in happiness.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 12:24 AM   #1431
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In a money world you need investment to buy resources to progress but in a world of no money resources are free and as the scientific study says working makes people happy.
And in a money world, those resources include gasoline, electricity, processed foods and materials, etc.

In a no money world, your resources will be unprocessed trees, unpurified water, and a few other things. And this will be because for profit companies will cease to exist in a no money world.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 04:23 AM   #1432
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The science says that:

Work plays a key role, as unemployment causes a big drop in happiness.
Er duh!

I'm sure all those unemployed people would be much happier working for nothing. Before they starve to death anyway. But at least they'd starve happy.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 05:13 AM   #1433
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The science says that:

Work plays a key role, as unemployment causes a big drop in happiness.
Only because people have grown up to believe that their work defines their worth.
If we had a culture that would appreciate what you do in your spare time as much as what you do for a living, there wouldn't be this lack of self-esteem of the unemployed.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 04:52 PM   #1434
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Employment regardless of money or not makes you feel happy, you have more esteem of yourself then everyone in a world of no money would like to work.

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Old 24th March 2017, 12:16 AM   #1435
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Employment regardless of money or not makes you feel happy, you have more esteem of yourself then everyone in a world of no money would like to work.
So how come so many people choose to not work and accept hand outs?

If I could have what I wanted without working, I would choose that too.
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Old 24th March 2017, 03:42 AM   #1436
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This ^^^^^^^^^

I'm quite capable of amusing myself and being happy without work interfering.
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Old 24th March 2017, 04:29 AM   #1437
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
This ^^^^^^^^^

I'm quite capable of amusing myself and being happy without work interfering.
Or doing "work" that nobody wants to pay me for, such as writing my novel or blogging my political beliefs.
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Old 24th March 2017, 05:38 AM   #1438
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
So how come so many people choose to not work and accept hand outs?

If I could have what I wanted without working, I would choose that too.
Then you'll be unhappy according to that scientific study. You'll lose your self esteem.
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Old 24th March 2017, 06:21 AM   #1439
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Only because people have grown up to believe that their work defines their worth.

If we had a culture that would appreciate what you do in your spare time as much as what you do for a living, there wouldn't be this lack of self-esteem of the unemployed.
BINGO!

My impression is that the "job as self worth" premise is a function of mental shorthand that people generally engage in - simplified - if they know what you do they, they know what you are.

It's also somewhat a holdover from the generation that grew up during the depression and later immigrants that entered America w/o job skills.

The only way that group survived and made progress was to do any work that came their way and if it was two jobs, all the better.

People in that economic environment didn't have "free" time to develop other skills in whatever personal interests they may have had.

As an example, you can read Carlos Santana's autobiography, The Universal Tone.

Santana describes the conflicts he had with his Father over his drive to create original music instead of simply working as a musician playing whatever music was popular at the time and place - his father had supported the family as a musician doing exactly that and saw no reason why his son should be any different.

From my personal experience with my father, he did get why I'd want to play music, but when I spent more time learning and practicing than he believed was appropriate he sure made his feelings known. He did not value musical skill, To him, you fooled around with it maybe, but otherwise "get your ass to work."

I often wonder how I might have lived my life if I spent more time studying pentatonic scales rather than ballistic tables.
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Old 25th March 2017, 06:33 PM   #1440
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Then you'll be unhappy according to that scientific study. You'll lose your self esteem.
I don't need self esteem to enjoy myself if I can go golfing and do what I enjoy because you'll be cleaning my toilets and providng my food and housing.
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