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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 24th August 2015, 05:01 PM   #161
dudalb
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Nonsense. Holocaust Denial was started as an attempt to whitewash Nazi Germany. That is it's main purpose. It is no coincidence that most of the founders of the movement were active in extreme right wing politics.
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Old 24th August 2015, 05:11 PM   #162
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
I've mentioned this before, but it's my belief that holocaust denial is based mostly off of shear disbelief.
I would like to put forward that this has been exacerbated by holocaust deniers that seek donations for profit. They will list the extreme versions of anecdotes, like baby bonfires and human soap factories, as though these anecdotes are the only "evidence" of the holocaust. The deniers then put on "a show" how easy it is to discredit these anecdotes, on their websites, and then seek donations to fight the holocaust as a whole.

However, these are mere con artists and if they weren't seeking donations to disprove the holocaust, they would be seeking donations to disprove 9/11, the JFK assassination and so on.

In taxation and other financial schemes, its is the same "players" who keep popping up running the different schemes. With holocaust denial "donation raisers" they can expand their feeding pool, using their original holocaust denial scheme, simply by adding off topic lines that 9/11 is also a government conspiracy and JFK was killed by aliens.

My gut feeling is that the "foot soldiers" of holocaust denial, who are most vocal on forums, generally are self justifying to themselves that their earlier donations had merit (behavioural equity theory) or they are simply playing the "I have special knowledge, and you don't, despite you being more educated" game. (Trolling)

Weird Hindu Holocaust Denial
Some things on the planet are simply insane. A very made French woman who became a Hindu, decided that Hitler was Shiva and promoted Holocaust denial in her Hindu books. We recently had a mad person on the Skeptic Society quoting Hindu religious sayings, who suddenly leaped into a claim that Adolf Hitler was a "good bloke" and the holocaust never happened. This same person was unsure if Germany was in Europe, or at war with Europe.


Savitri Devi aka Maximiani Portas (1905 –1982)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitri_Devi

The Last Man Against Time by Savitri Devi (Bizarre pro Nazi Hindu essay)
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/litsun_4.htm
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Old 25th August 2015, 09:36 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Not so simple after all, I think. I've mentioned this before, but it's my belief that holocaust denial is based mostly off of shear disbelief. Sure, the history of mankind is full wars, conquests, and crusades, but what the Nazis did was unthinkable to such a degree as to be unbelievable. And I'm not just talking about just the number of people they killed but the way in which they did it. If it started back up again, today, would you believe it?

Also while it's also hard someone would make up such horrendous crimes, it's not exactly unheard of. Once again, in that vein, I have to point out that the Jews have made up crimes almost as bad (see Exodus for example) and maintained that as true since antiquity in face of evidence saying it never happened. So while I know the holocaust happened I also wouldn't put it past the Jews to make it up completely or greatly exaggerate it.
No, I think skeptichaggis had it just right. Some casual uneducated deniers may truly find it hard to believe or conceive of I guess, but any reasonably intelligent person who spends a bit of time on the subject would be convinced that it did happen, and that the scale is correct.

I find it laughable that you use a biblical story that few take literally anymore to libel "the Jews" as liars.
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Old 25th August 2015, 08:43 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Not so simple after all, I think. I've mentioned this before, but it's my belief that holocaust denial is based mostly off of shear disbelief. Sure, the history of mankind is full wars, conquests, and crusades, but what the Nazis did was unthinkable to such a degree as to be unbelievable. And I'm not just talking about just the number of people they killed but the way in which they did it. If it started back up again, today, would you believe it?

Also while it's also hard someone would make up such horrendous crimes, it's not exactly unheard of. Once again, in that vein, I have to point out that the Jews have made up crimes almost as bad (see Exodus for example) and maintained that as true since antiquity in face of evidence saying it never happened. So while I know the holocaust happened I also wouldn't put it past the Jews to make it up completely or greatly exaggerate it.
That the holocaust is unthinkable is what makes holocaust denial resonate with a lot of people, but it is based squarely on antisemitism. You should read "Denying the Holocaust" by Deborah Lipstadt. She goes through the history of holocaust denial and how it's rooted in antisemitism.
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Old 26th August 2015, 11:13 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
That was enough to give me cause to pause. This is the same people that have been lying since antiquity about their history, even in face of facts that contradict those lies.
The "Jews", including (supposedly) your mother, have been lyiers since antiquity, so how can they be trusted about the Holocaust? Is that your "question"?
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Old 27th August 2015, 08:24 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Nonsense. Holocaust Denial was started as an attempt to whitewash Nazi Germany. That is it's main purpose. It is no coincidence that most of the founders of the movement were active in extreme right wing politics.
So what you're saying is that it's not possible for someone to come to the belief that the holocaust didn't happen or was greatly exaggerated if they're not antisemitic?

Nonsense indeed.

Originally Posted by rommelrommel View Post

I find it laughable that you use a biblical story that few take literally anymore to libel "the Jews" as liars.
You mean the same bible story that untold numbers of people took as the literal truth for thousands of years and the Jews defended as true even when it was beginning to be exposed as untrue and some continue to do so even face of everything that says that it is untrue?

Yes, how laughable for me to call a group of people known to lie as liars. What was I thinking?
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Old 27th August 2015, 09:17 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
I put that forth and the response was that they had kept meticulous records of the executions.

Me: Yeah, but how do we know that the Nazis were completely honest about how many they had killed and weren't exaggerating in any way to demoralize the Jews at the time?

Mom: It was because the Jews were the ones that were force to keep those records.
I never heard of the Jews themselves forced to keep records. They were, of course, forced to register themselves as Jews in the civic registries.

In addition to what others already said, there are also the transport lists from the other end: the transit camps. You can find (and download) the complete lists of the 19 transports from Dutch transit camp Westerbork to Sobibor at the National Archives. And at the Digital Monument for the Jewish Community in the Netherlands, you can find details on all of the ca. 105,000 Jews with Dutch residency who were massacred in the Holocaust. The information there is all based on the civic registries and transport lists and the like, and contains very few gaps.

Of course, there is no such wealth of paperwork available in all countries where the Holocaust took place, especially not in Russia where the main way was mass shootings by the Einsatzgruppen. There are no meticulous name-by-name lists of those.
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Old 30th August 2015, 08:45 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
So what you're saying is that it's not possible for someone to come to the belief that the holocaust didn't happen or was greatly exaggerated if they're not antisemitic?

Nonsense indeed.
Sadly the vast majority of Holocaust deniers are in fact anti-Semitic loons who came to their belief in the Holocaust hoax out of anti-Semitic animus. The number who are not is miniscule.

Quote:
You mean the same bible story that untold numbers of people took as the literal truth for thousands of years and the Jews defended as true even when it was beginning to be exposed as untrue and some continue to do so even face of everything that says that it is untrue?

Yes, how laughable for me to call a group of people known to lie as liars. What was I thinking?
You do of course realize that for thousands of years the Exodus story was accepted as real history by Christians, Muslims and Jews. So the people uttering it weren't lying. They genuinely thought it happened.

This once again is the familiar and dull trope of the Jews as liars. I wonder is it genetic? (snark) It is a dull old bromide. (Why do you use the phrase "the Jews"?) You do realize that some actual scholars do in fact think the Exodus in some form actually happened.

As for people repeating stories that turn out to be untrue. You do realize that historical folklore can be full of error and nonsense. Let us look at a few examples.

The Persian book called The Book of Kings. Accepted has history by Persians and it is largely complete fiction. The Iliad and Odyssey accepted has describing real events for more than 2000 years and again both are almost entirely fiction. Much of Herodotus is likewise.

I could also mention the fictional early history of Japan and China, again accepted as describing real events for centuries.

So there is absolutely nothing unusual for a folkloric event to be accepted as actually happening for centuries and then it turning out to be dubious.

And actually what are you thinking? Repeating the crap about "the Jews" being "liars", when nonsensical folkloric early history is in fact a rather common feature of cultures and the early histories of religion. (Christianity and Islam anyone.)
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Old 30th August 2015, 09:44 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
So what you're saying is that it's not possible for someone to come to the belief that the holocaust didn't happen or was greatly exaggerated if they're not antisemitic?

Nonsense indeed.
From long experience, about 5% of Holocaust deniers glom onto the idea without having prior antisemitic or pro-Nazi biases. In essence, the conspiracy theory looney tunes crowd.

Quote:
You mean the same bible story that untold numbers of people took as the literal truth for thousands of years and the Jews defended as true even when it was beginning to be exposed as untrue and some continue to do so even face of everything that says that it is untrue?

Yes, how laughable for me to call a group of people known to lie as liars. What was I thinking?
I honestly cannot believe I am reading such garbage. You're generalising from ancient religious texts written, it is believed, in the 6th to 5th Century BCE to the possibility of a people "lying" about current events in the 1940s.

WTF? By your apparent reasoning, nothing said by any Indian, European or indeed anyone with any cultural connection to an ancient or medieval religion, founding myth or invented tradition can be taken seriously since "they" might be "lying". This is racism pure and simple, however inadvertently you stumbled into it.
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Old 30th August 2015, 09:57 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
How do we know that the common estimate of executed Jews is completely accurate?
The same way we know any other common estimate of a historical statistic is accurate, by
a) reading the literature
b) checking the sources

Since those sources come from Nazi, Jewish and non-Nazi/non-Jewish provenances, and can be cross-checked against each other, there is a very high degree of confidence in the figures for each country and each action. This confidence is increased because the figures can be broken down by region and locality and then added up again, providing several methods to cross-check them.

Estimates generally range between 5 and 6 million. The lower end of the estimate range is more realistic.

By comparison to many other statistics for atrocities or war death tolls, this figure is very robust. The margin of error for historical mortality statistics is terrifyingly large.
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Old 30th August 2015, 10:47 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
The "Jews", including (supposedly) your mother, have been lyiers since antiquity, so how can they be trusted about the Holocaust? Is that your "question"?
No, my question is "How was this specific information verified?"

And don't forget that my first thought was that the Nazis, not the Jews, were lying or greatly over exaggerating about the numbers. It seems like a reasonable doubt to have about the whole affair.

I just figured that attempts to verify that they really executed that many were made.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 10:24 AM   #172
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Old 3rd September 2015, 04:19 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
So what you're saying is that it's not possible for someone to come to the belief that the holocaust didn't happen or was greatly exaggerated if they're not antisemitic?
Considering the documented support concerning the holocaust, it is virtually unheard of for a non-racist to consider the holocaust to be a hoax. I have never encountered, nor heard of, a holohoax type who wasn't a racist scumbag. I doubt any exist.

Quote:
You mean the same bible story that untold numbers of people took as the literal truth for thousands of years and the Jews defended as true even when it was beginning to be exposed as untrue and some continue to do so even face of everything that says that it is untrue?
Jews are no more or less dishonest than any other ethnic /religious group. Some people disagree with this statement because they have racist agendas.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 04:24 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
No, my question is "How was this specific information verified?"

And don't forget that my first thought was that the Nazis, not the Jews, were lying or greatly over exaggerating about the numbers. It seems like a reasonable doubt to have about the whole affair.

I just figured that attempts to verify that they really executed that many were made.
Every serious attempt to undermine the historical accuracy of the Shoah has been academically demolished. I'm not aware of any such attempt that wasn't the result of racist motivation.
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Old 5th September 2015, 02:22 AM   #175
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I usually post at RODOH. It is certainly my experience that the denier/revisionists there are either rabidly and openly anti-Semitic, they deny being anti-Semitic but their words say they are lying or they are general CTers who also think 9/11 was a government plot and HIV/AIDS is a conspiracy.

On the other side, of those who argue on forums that the Holocaust did happen come over as being rabidly pro-Jew/Zionism/Israel or anti all CTs as a matter of principle.
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Old 5th September 2015, 10:23 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I usually post at RODOH. It is certainly my experience that the denier/revisionists there are either rabidly and openly anti-Semitic, they deny being anti-Semitic but their words say they are lying or they are general CTers who also think 9/11 was a government plot and HIV/AIDS is a conspiracy.

On the other side, of those who argue on forums that the Holocaust did happen come over as being rabidly pro-Jew/Zionism/Israel or anti all CTs as a matter of principle.
I've encountered many non-holocaust deniers who hated both Zionism and Israel, and were not particularly "pro-Jew". I've never encountered a holocaust denier/"revisionist" who wasn't a racist.
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Old 6th September 2015, 12:23 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Jews are no more or less dishonest than any other ethnic /religious group.
Please recall that my first thought was that the Nazis had lied about or over exaggerated the number they had killed. Not that five million executed is any more acceptable than six, but still... Where would the Nazis fit on your honesty scale?

And yeah, I would consider Jews to be less honest than most because they created this whole story where they accused a people of committing crimes, for which they were innocent of, that were in some ways worse than the real crimes that the Nazis committed. And they promoted it as truth since ancient times and continue to defend it as truth even now in face of mounting evidence that it's not truth.

Where does that fit on your honesty scale?
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Old 6th September 2015, 12:45 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Where does that fit on your honesty scale?
Exactly the same as every other group of people concerning their religious myths. Jews, as a group, are no less or more dishonest than any other ethnic group.

Now, as far as where you fit in on my racism scale...
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Old 6th September 2015, 01:30 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post

Now, as far as where you fit in on my racism scale...
Probably nowhere as Jews aren't a race any more than Christians, Mormons, Scientologists, Catholics, Muslims, or any other religious organization is/are in my view.

Now, about them Nazis. Where would they be on the honesty scale? Is it conceivable to you that they might over exaggerate or outright lie about how many they actually killed? If not, why not?
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Old 6th September 2015, 01:47 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Probably nowhere as Jews aren't a race any more than Christians, Mormons, Scientologists, Catholics, Muslims, or any other religious organization is/are in my view.
Guess again. Racism also applies to ethnic groups, so you fully qualify.
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Old 6th September 2015, 06:24 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Now, about them Nazis. Where would they be on the honesty scale? Is it conceivable to you that they might over exaggerate or outright lie about how many they actually killed? If not, why not?
The Nazis didn't exactly boast about the numbers of Jews killed in the weekly Wochenschau or in Der Stürmer. The numbers that were reported by the Nazis, and we know about, come in two flavours:
1) reports to superiors, like the reports from the Einzatsgruppen. Now, these may have had a reason to exaggerate to please their superiors, like any manager wants to paint himself good to his manager;
2) testimony in Nuremberg. Now, I really don't see a reason to exaggerate there.
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Old 6th September 2015, 01:20 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The Nazis didn't exactly boast about the numbers of Jews killed in the weekly Wochenschau or in Der Stürmer. The numbers that were reported by the Nazis, and we know about, come in two flavours:
1) reports to superiors, like the reports from the Einzatsgruppen. Now, these may have had a reason to exaggerate to please their superiors, like any manager wants to paint himself good to his manager;
2) testimony in Nuremberg. Now, I really don't see a reason to exaggerate there.
I agree that point 2 is the most telling.

In the end, the number of millions doesn't matter to me. It is still one of the worst atrocities of all time. Quibbling about whether it was 5 or 6 million Jews (not to mention the millions of Roma, Catholics, etc. who met the same fate) seems rather silly to me.
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Old 7th September 2015, 12:26 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by BazBear View Post
I agree that point 2 is the most telling.

In the end, the number of millions doesn't matter to me. It is still one of the worst atrocities of all time. Quibbling about whether it was 5 or 6 million Jews (not to mention the millions of Roma, Catholics, etc. who met the same fate) seems rather silly to me.
To add to your parenthesis Or as many forget : homosexual and handicapped.
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Old 7th September 2015, 02:59 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
All I did was ask if the numbers were accurate. And if so, then how was that number was verified. And if not then how many were actually killed and how was that number verified.
You might have come across the fact that the six million figure was mentioned in the Nuremberg judgement, based on the testimony of an SS officer, Wilhelm Hoettl, who said he heard this from Eichmann in 1944. In fact Hoettl said that Eichmann told him 4 million died in the extermination camps and 2 million died elsewhere by shootings or in ghettos.

This is the origin of the 'canonical' 6M figure, and it doesn't come from "the Jews" at all. But the order of magnitude does not rest on the hearsay of one SS officer alone.

Further digging would have revealed that another SS officer, Dieter Wisliceny, also testified at Nuremberg that the same informant, Eichmann, had told him five million Jews had died. He spent a long time with interrogators going through country by country the numbers he had heard, being very careful to distinguish between what he knew with more certainty and what he knew less well, who his informants (multiple) were, and so on.

So already two sources give an estimate range between 5 and 6 million, and they happen to be right - the number is in between 5 and 6 million.

They are right because Hoettl and Wisliceny were not the only two sources giving figures in the years immediately after the war. The 'verification' comes from contrasting these sources, since we are dealing with a transnational event affecting Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Italy, Greece, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Albania, Austria, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Poland, and the Soviet Union.

Firstly, one can see that the states that liberated the killing sites reported estimates of the number of victims, without necessarily distinguishing between Jewish and non-Jewish victims. That is less of a problem when looking at estimates for Treblinka since virtually only Jews died there, more of a problem for Auschwitz at this time, since many Poles died there. The initial estimates were provided by the Soviet and Polish states, not Jews.

The 'official' estimates were overestimates:
Auschwitz 4 million
Majdanek 1.5 million

Together these camps add up to 5.5 million, but the victims were not all Jews, and indeed the exaggerations can be attributed in part to a desire by the Soviet and Polish states not to put too much emphasis on Jewish victimhood and to drown it out in universalised suffering.

Historians, beginning with two Jewish historians, Gerald Reitlinger and Raul Hilberg, in 1953 and 1961, reduced these figures by using Nazi documents to circa 1 million Jewish victims at Auschwitz, and 58,000 out of 78,000 Majdanek victims being Jews. The main work in recent decades was done by Polish historians, Franciszek Piper for Auschwitz and Tomasz Kranz for Majanek, the latter making significant use of a document found by the British historian Steve Tyas.

The other main death camps had almost entirely Jewish victims, and they were estimated in 1945 as follows by the Polish state, based on limited documents and estimating numbers of transports per day multiplied by how long the camp functioned:
Belzec 600,000
Sobibor 250,000
Treblinka 781,000
Chelmno 345,000
Total, 1,726,000

These camps claimed mostly Polish Jewish victims. So Polish Jewish and Polish historians checked them by looking at the known deportations. Western historians and West German courts also started using the Korherr report, a very important Nazi document, so Chelmno was reduced to 152,000 based on this source. The same British historian Steve Tyas mentioned above found an intercepted Nazi radio message with cryptic numbers for B, S, T and L (for Lublin, ie Majdanek) that then reduced the other camps to 1.274 million for 1942, and correspondingly reduced the total.

The initial method wasn't so ludicrous - Belzec went from 600,000 to 434,000, which is 85%, and instead of it being thought - by those not studying the regions properly and just going on the attention grabbing big camps - that nearly all victims from the affected regions had died in Belzec, historians (often German) noticed that many had been shot on the spot alongside deportations.

In 1945-46, Polish Jewish historians who had survived the war compared and contrasted the number of Jews estimated prewar with the number of Jews counted as survivors, and factored in survivors still living elsewhere, e.g. exiles in the USSR, to estimate 3 million Jews died in Poland. Other calculations relied on overestimates of the number of exiles in the USSR and came up with 2.7 million.

This 'subtraction' method was quite standard, and made sense in the immediate aftermath. It was supplemented by war crimes investigations by the Polish and Soviet states, and by historical research, increasingly by an international community of historians including non-Jews as well as Jews.

At Nuremberg, the prosecution mentioned one of the earliest country-by-country estimates calculated by the Institute of Jewish Affairs using the 'subtraction' method. This estimated 5.7 million missing, of whom it was thought at least 4.5 million had been killed. The estimate worked with very limited information from the press at a very early stage (July 1945).

Country by country, the estimates were corrected based on state-led war crimes investigations, missing persons enquiries, repatriation ministry statistics, historical research using Nazi documents, and have gone on being corrected to this day. Germany, for example, created a memorial book in the 1980s using the full statistical and archival apparatus of the German state crosschecking all names, and then after reunification updated it with newly available information.

There have been many overall calculations since the first one in July 1945, all going country by country, based on more and more information, combining addition and subtraction methods to check them against each other. For example, Gerald Reitlinger came up with one of the lowest estimates in 1953, calculating 4.2 to 4.5 million victims, but he was excessively conservative, especially regarding Poland and the Soviet Union. Raul Hilberg calculated 5.1 million in 1961. These were both before the end of the Cold War, which made examining the USSR and looking at detailed sources for the East Bloc much easier.

One problem in many calculations is defining the territories since there have been so many border changes. A 1991 study by German historians offered very good country level estimates, but the editor, Wolfgang Benz, then ignored border changes and overlaps, and simply added the numbers provided by specialist contributors up to 6.2 million. Without the overlaps the number would have been more like 5.7 million.

So there is now general acceptance, after multiple calculations, that the number is between 5 and 6 million.

By comparison to calculations regarding other incidences of mass death, this is pretty good - nobody knows the absolutely exact numbers for the Great Leap Forward, for the Soviet Union, for the Holodomor, for the Armenian Genocide. The variations for the USSR and China dwarf the magnitude of the Holocaust. One can produce wildly varying numbers for the Rape of Nanjing depending on how you define that incident.

Your mother's offhand remark, by the way, is true only for a very narrow slice of the Holocaust. Jewish councils had to provide statistical data on mortality in the bigger ghettos like Warsaw, Lodz and Theresienstadt. The records survived the war. They add up to about 150,000 deaths from starvation and disease in these three ghettos. But far from wanting to exaggerate the numbers, the Jewish councils recording the data would have had an incentive to downplay them in order to pretend some Jews were alive and claim rations. Except that wouldn't have worked so well, as the Nazis were undersupplying the ghettos with food, causing the starvation in the first place, and the exact division of rations was delegated to the Jewish councils. So the records are evidently accurate, based on checking them fairly thoroughly (these are some of the most-studied places in the Holocaust). The councils also recorded the numbers deported from these ghettos to the death camps - but the numbers were cross-checked by the Nazis, since the Nazis ran the railways, not the Jewish councils.
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Old 7th September 2015, 06:20 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
And yeah, I would consider Jews to be less honest than most because they created this whole story where they accused a people of committing crimes, for which they were innocent of, that were in some ways worse than the real crimes that the Nazis committed. And they promoted it as truth since ancient times and continue to defend it as truth even now in face of mounting evidence that it's not truth.

Where does that fit on your honesty scale?
Excuse me if I'm a bit dumb and missed some random post, but are you saying Jews are worse than nazis because bible?,
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Old 7th September 2015, 06:24 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Excuse me if I'm a bit dumb and missed some random post, but are you saying Jews are worse than nazis because bible?,
The crimes are not specified. Maybe he should do that first? I mean. It is not certain that information of the bible is meant in these crimes.
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Old 7th September 2015, 11:11 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Excuse me if I'm a bit dumb and missed some random post, but are you saying Jews are worse than nazis because bible?
Um... No? I might think that the Jews are a pack of liars because of the various lies they put forth as truth, but being liars doesn't earn them the death penalty and doesn't make them worse than people who were terrible war criminals.

In my opinion, of course.

I think your confusion springs from the fact that I consider the crimes that the ancient Egyptians have been falsely accused of are in some ways worse than what the Nazis had done. And yeah falsely accusing someone of crimes they didn't commit isn't cool but, again, that isn't a death penalty worthy offense.
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Old 7th September 2015, 11:14 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Um... No? I might think that the Jews are a pack of liars because of the various lies they put forth as truth, but being liars doesn't earn them the death penalty and doesn't make them worse than people who were terrible war criminals.

In my opinion, of course.
Could you be more specific about those lies?
Some general examples, perhaps?
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Old 7th September 2015, 11:22 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Could you be more specific about those lies?
Some general examples, perhaps?
Already edited that post, but what would you consider falsely accusing someone of a crime? That certainly isn't telling the truth. And continuing to defend it as truth in face of facts isn't telling the truth either.
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Old 7th September 2015, 01:51 PM   #190
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"I'm not saying the Holocaust never happened, I'm just saying Jews are liars!"

Good going there
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Old 7th September 2015, 03:03 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
...Firstly, the word you're actually looking for is liable since this forum is written format.
Anyone want to take this one?
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Old 7th September 2015, 03:07 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
Anyone want to take this one?
Yeah, even for this thread, that's some pretty low-hanging fruit...
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Old 7th September 2015, 03:15 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Okay, I have to ask. What makes the Jews so special to you? If we were talking about any other group known to have lied and falsely accuse several groups of war crimes against them or their ancestors I would have no problem about calling them out as liars either, especially if they were still promoting it as true in modern times.
You'd have to demonstrate that there's a false accusation, first.
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Old 7th September 2015, 03:56 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You'd have to demonstrate that there's a false accusation, first.
Do you take Exodus as a factual account? Because I can most certainly assure you that it never happened.
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Old 7th September 2015, 05:13 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Do you take Exodus as a factual account? Because I can most certainly assure you that it never happened.
In what way does this distinguish the Jewish story from that of every other religion?
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Old 7th September 2015, 05:35 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
I see your confusion then.
Since I'm not confused in the least, I seriously doubt that.

Quote:
Firstly, the word you're actually looking for is liable since this forum is written format.
Oh boy. Firstly, the word you're looking for is libel, not liable. And lastly, this isn't a courtroom and we aren't discussing potential civil litigation. In casual, conversational usage, the words slander, libel and defamation are all perfectly acceptable synonyms.

Quote:
Tell me, trustbutverify, have you ever heard the saying "Trust but verify"?
Sure have. I've also heard the phrase "JAQing off". Seen it in weaselly action a number of times, as well.
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Old 7th September 2015, 08:20 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Since I'm not confused in the least, I seriously doubt that.
"You only think you're not confused but you really are confused. That contradiction is what makes it so confusing." ~Anthony DiNozo, NCIS.

Originally Posted by TBV
Oh boy. Firstly, the word you're looking for is libel, not liable.
I blame the auto-correct. I'm know that because you now think I'm some racist antisemitic because I dare to question the accuracy of what is known so I'm supposed to blame the Jews but it really was the auto-correct.

Originally Posted by TBV
Sure have. I've also heard the phrase "JAQing off". Seen it in weaselly action a number of times, as well.
I only asked about the accuracy of what is known about how many Jews were executed and I got the answer I needed. It really doesn't get any more complicated than that.

Call it JAQing off if you like, I won't contest it. Don't assign racism where it doesn't exist though.
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Old 8th September 2015, 01:55 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Do you take Exodus as a factual account? Because I can most certainly assure you that it never happened.
Did the Jews write the Bible?

ETA: Or are you talking about Leon Uris' Exodus? A fictional retelling - but based on reality - of the foundation of Israel? Did the Jews write that?
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Old 8th September 2015, 02:08 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Do you take Exodus as a factual account? Because I can most certainly assure you that it never happened.
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about reality, not ancient myths. I'm sure my ancestors had silly beliefs, and I'm sure they lied, but I don't think that has anything to do about me, or how dishonest my ethnic group is.
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Old 8th September 2015, 02:45 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
To add to your parenthesis Or as many forget : homosexual and handicapped.
And Slavic (especially Polish) leaders, politicians and intellectuals; Roma; the mentally ill; Esperanto speakers; communists and socialists; Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Not forgetting the Hunger Plan and more than ten million Slavic civilian deaths.

Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Please recall that my first thought was that the Nazis had lied about or over exaggerated the number they had killed. Not that five million executed is any more acceptable than six, but still... Where would the Nazis fit on your honesty scale?
It's worth remembering that the death toll for the Holocaust in toto is around eleven-and-a-half million human lives
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