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#201 |
Philosopher
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#202 |
Man of a Thousand Memes
Join Date: Apr 2011
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"There is no special treatment for guns." ~WildCat, confirmed gun owner. |
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#203 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,987
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In matters of religion if you believe it its not a lie! lol All religions would have this same problem, they all contain false information that at one time and still today are believed by billions of people. You don't seem to understand this.
So mudcat are all modern people who believe in religion branded as liars because of what is taught as truth in their religions? |
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#204 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
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Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
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#205 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,958
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Problem is, all Christian denominations also 'believe' the Exodus story because it's in the Old Testatement. It's been rather inspirational for African Americans. Moses is mentioned 502 times in the Koran, do the 1 billion Muslims have to come clean, too?
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Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. Holocaust Denial and Operation Reinhard. A Critique of the Falsehoods of Mattogno, Graf and Kues. (biggest ever skeptical debunking of conspiracy theorists; PDF available) Everytime one asks you holocaust deniers for positive evidence you just put your finger in the ears, dance around and sing lalala - Kevin Silbstedt |
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#206 |
Muse
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 745
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What governing body of Jews, speaking for all Jews everywhere, has the authority to issue an admission that the Exodus story is completely made up? What would this admission look like? Would Jews need to admit that they lied; that they practice a religion that is based on lies and, by extension, so do all Christians and Muslims?
It seems that would cause alot of upheaval in the world. |
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#207 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,987
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..Plus there is no one to apologize to, there is no Egyptian Empire left to say sorry to (not that they are blameless in the myths we hear) and the nearest thing to that ancient nation are the Coptics, who are Christians - should they beg pardon from themselves? lol
About 55% of the religious people in the world are JCM and if you look hard enough into the other religions they have truth issues also..... http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/12/01_groups.png Seems like a baseless argument. I happen to know one of my ancestors was a right royal bastard, liar, murderer, horse thief, etc.,do his crimes come down to me? I think not. We seem to be drifting off topic. |
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#208 |
Master Poster
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Posts: 2,011
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#209 |
Possible Suspect
Join Date: Sep 2008
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I don't see how an article of clothing can be indecent. A person, yes. - Robert A. Heinlein If Christ died for our sins, dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them? - Jules Feiffer If you are going through hell, keep going - Winston Churchill |
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#210 |
Possible Suspect
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Slightly Over The Hill, Not Too Far Around The Bend
Posts: 2,569
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Mudcat, I'm simply not getting what you're on about with this stuff. The Jews are not one monolithic religion and culture today, and I doubt they have been in at least 2500 years. Demanding that all Jews renounce scriptural myths, and if they don't, lumping them all together as liars seems rather silly to me. It certainly has nothing to do with the veracity of the well researched estimates of how many were killed by the Nazis.
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I don't see how an article of clothing can be indecent. A person, yes. - Robert A. Heinlein If Christ died for our sins, dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them? - Jules Feiffer If you are going through hell, keep going - Winston Churchill |
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#211 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,011
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And why, specifically, are the Jews "liars" for having some mythological beliefs, Mudcat? Are you trying to tell us something about yourself that the rest of us sussed out a long time ago?
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#212 |
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 17
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Haha. the victimhood and persecution complex of some of these groups is staggering. Just because Zamenhof was an esperanto speaker, doesn't mean all esperanto speakers were singled out for a one way ticket to concentration camps, the Fallbeil or whatever. Zamenhof was also a jew. Maybe that had something to do with it?
I see this thread got off moderated status. The only reason seems all dissenters have gone. Freedom of speech has prevailed. |
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#213 |
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 17
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Apart from esperanto speakers, I would like to add a forgotten group of people, the Nazis also targeted mime players. Allow me to cite from wikipedia on Marcel Marceau:
Quote:
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#214 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,198
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It would seem that the history of Esperanto and the details of the Holocausst are (yet more) topics you have little knowledge of.
Hitler (in Mein Kampf, perhaps you've heard of it?) claimed that Esperanto was a Jewish creation, a universal language to unite the Jewish diaspora.
Originally Posted by Adolf Hitler
Quote:
As for your idiotic assertion that Lazar Zamenhof was the only person victimised because of his espousing of Esperanto, perhaps you're ignorant of the murder of his children? His son Adam was executed under specific orders from Berlin and daughters Lidia and Zofia perished at Treblinka. Along with about 3,500 others. Though it's difficult to be exact as many Esperantists were also Jews, intellectuals or others considered to the Nazi doctrine of nationalistic stupidity. |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#215 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,868
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another day, another Holocaust denier outs himself.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#216 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
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What is it with antisemitism, anyway? How does that very specific bigotry not only survives, but thrives throughout the centuries?
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#217 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 7,729
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Well, Leon Uris was Jewish wasn't he?
I want to ask the same question as Belz. I get "how" Jews have become a hated group. They are everywhere, they are easily identifiable, and make an easy target to be cast in the role of scapegoat for the world's troubles. The Nazis saw them as "The Great Evil" that prevented ordinary Germans from getting ahead. However, what I don't get is the "why". Why is there such a widespread dislike, hatred even, of Jews. What is it about them that makes people hate them so much? Is it really as simple as deicide; that Christians blame the Jews for the betrayal of Jesus? |
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► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone. ► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah ► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not. |
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#218 |
Philosopher
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Posts: 7,100
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"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#219 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 8,406
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I don't think you will find a single reason.
In some places it was because the Jews were firmly established in the middle class professions. The elite had to bow to them, the working classes were jealous. When, like little Adolf, you are starving on the streets of Vienna and you see pawnbrokers, lawyers, and doctors who are not starving, and are all Jewish it is easy to convince yourself they are pawnbrokers, lawyers, or doctors because they are Jewish, and because there was corruption. On the other hand, in 1888, London was "overflowing" with Jews who had outrun persecution in Russia. They were seen exactly the same way that Syrian refugees are being seen today by the worst elements of society. A drain, taking jobs from good folk, speaking their own language, etc. (To the point that when Jack The Ripper started killing and 'everybody knew' he was the leather aproned Jewish worker who had threatened 'loose' women by habit, there was a very real threat of race riots.) But perhaps the largest factor for the last few hundred years has been the connection to anarchism, marxism, and communism. There was a whole lot of complicated politicing going on before the serfs got emancipated in Russia, and by the time the socialism movement proper was underway, the Jews were being 'blamed' for the upheaval. |
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@tomhodden Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW). |
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#220 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,868
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__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#221 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,582
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One uncredited headline in the Daily Express in 1932 is used by deniers to claim the Jews started it all...
![]() Fact is it was a sensationalist headline about a proposed boycott. |
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Audiophile/biker/sceptic |
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#222 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 774
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As a matter of fact this is dated of March 24, 1933 and not 1932. The very same day the Reichtag in hand of the nazi parti (as communist représentatives were already in concentration camps and socialist would follow soon) adopted the Enabling Act which gave to Adolf Hitler the full power over Germany.
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#223 |
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,501
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Not exactly. It transferred presidential powers of decree to the cabinet and nullified parts of the constitution. However, these powers were due to a recent history of authoritarian methods, political violence and the suspendion of civil liberties through the Reichstag Fire Decree already in practice in Hitler's hands (as he plainly stated himself). What it did was add a veneer of legality to methods already put into practice; Hitler had been jabbering about an Enabling Act as the "legal" way of excercising plenipotentiary powers for over a year. So it was kind of a propaganda victory and vote of confidence for Hitler, not a transfer of power.
Furthermore, there were three major obstacles still in Hitler's way: President von Hindenburg (whose threats of imposing martial law would if realized have stopped Hitler dead), Ernst Röhm (who was working on turning the SA against Hitler), and the Reichswehr leadership. Röhm would be murdered in 1934 and Hindenburg died soon after that. Röhm's murder placated the army, but Hitler would actually not attain absolute power until 1938, after eliminating the remnants of the old military leadership. That's why the serious antisemitic rhetoric and aggressive expansionisn was only picked up again at that point. |
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#224 |
Mafia Penguin
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The Enabling Act eliminated the Reichstag (parliament) as the legislative power; the executive (president and cabinet) could draft and decide laws at will without needing a vote in the Reichstag. Enabling acts had been used throughout the Weimar Republic, even in the stable years, but always limited in time (1 year max) and limited in scope (say, only laws about fiscal policy). Hitler's Enabling Act was for five years (and duly in 1938 extended for another five years by the puppet parliament that remained), and for all legislation.
The Reichstag Fire Decree had another scope; it suspended civil liberties, so basically, the police could pick you up and detain you for saying that Hitler is the wrong man for being chancellor, or for just looking cross. Yes, because Röhm's vision of the SA was of a "people's army", and thus a competitor to the Reichswehr. With the murder of Röhm and the rest of the SA leadership, that ambition was crushed. And let's not forget that Hitler also placated the army by making a great (military) show out of Hindenburg's funeral. |
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#225 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
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I've thought about that ever since I took a trip to Asia and discovered the Japanese and Chinese were very anti-semitic. This surprised me, for I know for a fact - the asian anti-semites told me - that they had never even met a Jew! There reasons for being anti-semitic were the same-ole-same-ole reason use by every other anti-semite - and every anti-semite seems to have had a different reason. I mean, there most be 100's - literally 100's - of reasons why anti-semites say they don't like the Jews and everyone of thier reasons doesn't hold water.
Talking to anti-semites about why they hate Jews is like an alien from another planet asking a racist southener about why the north and south fought the civil war. The southener will give the alien every reason except the real, underlying reason: SLAVERY. So, I've been looking at some of the basic reasons why anti-semitism is so prevalent (for a long time, now) in space and time - forming Hypothesis and seeing if I can knock them down. That wasn't really getting me anywhere because I was knocking down all the Hypothesis - it was a turkey shoot. So, I switched tact and started looking through history for groups that have been hated like the Jews for seemingly no good reason. I think I'm getting closer to an answer...just maybe. |
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#226 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
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Noam Chomsky once said that he refused to discuss the possibility that the Holocaust didn't happen because to even to be involved in a discussion where the reality of the Holocaust is questioned is to "demean oneself". I agree. Consequently, I won't even talk with deniers about the Holocaust....and I think that is pretty good policy.
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#227 |
Philosopher
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#228 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
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Haven't come close to any educated conclusions yet.
Anyways, here's an interesting factoid I'm starting to get nailed down (maybe): Anti-Semitism as we know it - that specifically has a hard-on for Jews - began around 2000 years ago near the beginning of the Christian Era - and I believe it started in the Hellenic segment of the Roman Empire (the eastern seaboard of the Medeteranian). However...I don't think anti-semitism is due to Christianity - because I see it practiced by the Egyptians and Greeks of this period, too. Anything before that where the Romans or Macedonians, Hittites, Babylonians, Phonecians or Egyptians blasted the Jews was not neccessarily because they were Jewish - it's just because everybody played hard-ball back then and the Jews were just unlucky enough to be on the losing end of the fight. So...what was it that changed with people around the beginning of Christianity that brought on Anti-semitism - whether Christian...or not? This is a question I am asking. Another thing. Been looking at a lot of Historically marginalized groups that are small and locate internationally like the Jews and comparing their treatment against how people have treated the Jews. I'm looking at groups like Jehovah's Witness, The Gypsies (Roma), Scientologists, The Mormons (not so International, I know), B'nai B'rith, Sikhs, Kurds and some others. I'm seeing some interesting stuff here. |
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#229 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,547
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The Romans, and even more so the Greeks, detested mutilation - so in particular, circumcision. One of the Seleucid kings outlawed it and actively tried to root it out. The Romans further had a problem with the Jews that they didn't want to pay homage, not even lip service, to the Roman gods. All other peoples they subjected they could strike a deal with. "Oh, your Toutatis is the same guy as our Mercury. You know what? We'll build a temple here dedicated to Toutatis-Mercury". Problem solved, both parties happy - and the Romans were pretty laid back about this. Obviously, this didn't work with Jewish monotheism.
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#230 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
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To the extent that the Jews would not compromise, or would not obey, the Jews were killed. This is pretty-much how everyone that was conquered was treated: Obey, Compromise, or die - Problem Solved. The Greeks and Romans had rules, and anybody that did not obey those rules was hammered. While these rules were morally repugnant, the charges levied against the Jews - and the outcomes - were at least tangible and predictable. This is how the all-conquering governments worked, and the Jews weren't really singled out at this time for any special type of hatred. But anti-semitism, characterized by an ill-defined and intangible Libel, Slander, Societal Hatred, and its subsequent Persecution, was a later development - and had been the real mystery.
In short, in the ancient world the Jews could always get a concrete answer to the question, "Why do they hate us?" After anti-semitism developed, that question starts becomming a mystery because the answers offered no longer really make sense. |
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#231 |
Philosopher
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#232 |
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,501
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All true points, but what I was getting at was that the Enabling Act was mostly just a confirmation of things that were already happening. The Reichstag just didn't have the legitimacy to challenge a Hindenburg-backed Hitler at that point. So it wasn't the act itself as much as the fact that he could get it passed in the first place.
My point is just that Hitler's rise to power is often portrayed as culminating in the Ermächtigungsgesetz, but IMO (and the way I understand Kershaw) it was just another stepping stone. The pivotal event was the unforeseen RF Deceee and the police state it created. |
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"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy |
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#233 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
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I'm not yet clear how Hitler could do everything he wanted with just the backing of Hindenburg and not that of the Reichstag, without an Enabling Act.
I think the material I posted and referred to in the Reichstag Fire thread puts a big question mark around the "unforeseen" aspect. |
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#234 |
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,501
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"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy |
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#235 |
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,501
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Sorry, I've been extremely busy these past days and just haven't had the time for much more than hasty posts jotted down from my phone.
Obviously the Enabling act extended the legal powers immediately available to Hitler. But the only reason such an absurd constitutional amendment was acceptable was because of the immense direct and indirect power held by the Nazis (the police chief of Bavaria, for instance, now being called Heinrich Himmler). Passing a sweeping plenipotentiary act was simply the most obvious and convenient way available of consolidating and exercising it directly. Had the Center Party refused it, for example, the Nazis would have found some other way. The same cannot really be said for a lot of the other decisive events that led to Hitler's eventual seizure of essentially absolute power. |
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"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy |
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#236 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,582
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Has the RODOH forum crashed? When I tried to go on here
https://rodoh.info/forum/ I get Oppss!!!Error and Back to Main page, but back at the main page and a click returns to the oppss!!!error. |
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Audiophile/biker/sceptic |
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#237 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 331
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Robert Faurisson is currently on trial in France for his revisionist views. The French government never stops talking about "democracy" and "human rights" yet it doesn't even support the right of free speech -
www.codoh.com/library/document/4045/ The French government doesn't have a problem if you say there is no God. They don't care if you say Jesus Christ never existed. But if you say there were no gas chambers you can be sent to jail. It's a sick situation! |
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#238 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,350
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What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
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#239 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 774
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As a matter if fact, this will certainly not the the "trial of the century". But one could use this wording for the court case Faurisson lost against former French Ministry of Jutice Robert Badinter.
Badinter had called Faurisson a falsifier of history. Faurisson decided to sue Badinter for defamation and eventually lost his case in front of the court. This court has definitively made it clear to everybody that Faurisson is not an historian and that his work is mere forgery than real historian job. I add a comment of a French lawyer on this case (non English translation founfd, sorry): http://droitcultures.revues.org/2526 Beside, I also add that the European Court of Human Rights has alread ruled in the past that forbidding by law publications or speeches containing holocaust denial, as does the French State and a few other countries in world, is not contrary to the European Convention on Human Rights, which includes of course the right of free speech. |
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#240 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 331
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That confirms my point. It shows what liars and hypocrites the European Court of Human Rights are. France is a signatory to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. You either have freedom of expression or you don't. Putting people on trial for expressing a non violent, peaceful opinion on a historical subject is wrong. These same French politicians who support imprisoning holocaust revisionists are the same ones who just a year ago were grandstanding about the importance of freedom of expression after the Charlie Hebdo killings. How two faced can you get?
http://revisionistreview.blogspot.co...ustianity.html |
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