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Old 13th November 2014, 12:18 AM   #81
Astreja
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There is one particular thing that money can give us but which barter systems cannot:

Time.

A monetary system creates a neutral and immediate transaction and allows hundreds of items to change hands in a single day -- Consider, for example, the local grocery store.

Now consider the alternative: If I want to exchange typing skills for oranges, for example, I take some of the money that My employer paid directly into My bank account and I go buy a bag of oranges. Under Gaetanomics, I would have to barter typing for passage on a plane or ship so as to travel to California, or South Africa, or wherever someone had a field of oranges. Once there, I would have to find a grower who needed something typed. and negotiate a fair exchange rate. Finally, I would have to buy My way back home by bartering My typing skills for transport.

With money, I can type for 15 minutes and buy a $5.00 bag of oranges at My convenience, at the grocery store a block and a half up the road.

Without money, I would lose literally days of My life. I would somehow have to barter for meals on my long trek to get oranges, or carry nonperishable food on the trip and hope that no one steals it. My employer would be short-staffed in My absence. My family would be worrying about Me. I'd miss band practices and music lessons. The only sensible thing to do in this scenario would be to give up on oranges altogether, so that I didn't have to give up even more.

The most glaring flaw in Gaetan's worldview appears to be its incessant pessimism regarding human motives, and its obsession with controlling the minutiae of others' lives in support of an utterly ghastly realm of mock compassion and bogus morality. Humanity simply cannot afford to go down that path.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 07:55 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Astreja View Post
There is one particular thing that money can give us but which barter systems cannot:

[i]Time[...]
Money does all that (eliminated the need for a "coincidence of wants") and a lot more than that. It creates efficient markets that barter cannot. When I shop for a gallon of milk, anyone can readily compare $3.27 vs $2.78 and understand the difference, but when one milk vendor wants 4 oranges and the other want 6 apples - then it's impossible to create an effective comparison w/o also going to the most cost-effective orange and apple dealers and understanding what they would want - and repeat until we get to a common unit of exchange.

The fact that I actually know who has the lowest milk prices, or that I and a million others have smartphone apps that show the cheapest nearby gas prices, or that we google for the best prices on hard goods, speaks to extremely efficient markets that would be impossible w/o money.

Quote:
The most glaring flaw in Gaetan's worldview appears to be its incessant pessimism regarding human motives, and its obsession with controlling the minutiae of others' lives in support of an utterly ghastly realm of mock compassion and bogus morality. Humanity simply cannot afford to go down that path.
A lot of liberals have irrationally pessimistic views of any business or corporation and free markets, always ascribing motives - as tho' they lived in a Dicken's tale. Gaetan is just a little more extreme, not fundamentally different. Coupled with his unwillingness to consider or address any rebuttal makes this a pointless thread.

Last edited by stevea; 22nd November 2014 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 25th November 2014, 06:42 AM   #83
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Global Ultra Wealthy Population Reaches Record High of 211,275 Individuals with Combined Net Worth of Nearly US$30 Trillion...
The world’s UHNW population accounts for only 0.004% of the world’s adult population, but controls almost 13% of the world’s total wealth.


More stupidities with the use of money, continue to vote it won't make any difference.

http://www.ubs.com/global/en/about_u...cord-high.html

Last edited by Gaetan; 25th November 2014 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 25th November 2014, 06:45 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Global Ultra Wealthy Population Reaches Record High of 211,275 Individuals with Combined Net Worth of Nearly US$30 Trillion
That's awesome! You've proved that money works again!
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Old 25th November 2014, 06:50 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
That's awesome! You've proved that money works again!
You don't know how it works because when one fellow gets rich i million fellows have to be poor, that what the study says.
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Old 25th November 2014, 06:51 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The world’s UHNW population accounts for only 0.004% of the world’s adult population, but controls almost 13% of the world’s total wealth.
Well they probably pay 90% of UBS' wealth management division's revenues so they're spreading the lurve.
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Old 25th November 2014, 06:52 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't know how it works because when one fellow gets rich i million fellows have to be poor, that what the study says.
How much money did Adam and Eve have?
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Old 25th November 2014, 06:54 AM   #88
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I think the GINI index of Adam-Eve-God was 1.0. The first two didn't even have clothes FFS.

It's all been egalitarianism from there.
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Old 25th November 2014, 11:30 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't know how it works because when one fellow gets rich i million fellows have to be poor, that what the study says.
Can you quote the part that says a million HAVE to be poor?
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Old 26th November 2014, 11:39 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Can you quote the part that says a million HAVE to be poor?
Exactly what I was thinking. Just because there are rich people doesn't mean that millions have to be poor. The economy isn't a zero sum game where money is finite.

Even if Gaetan was able to somehow remove money from the world, it would be no different. Some guy would manage to accumulate more grain or other precious resources than others and would have leverage.

In the old days, it may have been the man with the most goats and cows that was considered wealthy. Now we use money instead of livestock or other means of counting one's trappings.
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Old 26th November 2014, 08:29 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Can you quote the part that says a million HAVE to be poor?
When one fellow will have all the wealth of the earth, there won't be nothing left for the next 10 billions, you didn't heard about mathematic.
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Old 26th November 2014, 09:21 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When one fellow will have all the wealth of the earth, there won't be nothing left for the next 10 billions, you didn't heard about mathematic.
How much money did Adam and Eve have?
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Old 26th November 2014, 09:25 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
How much money did Adam and Eve have?
Mocking the afflicted is bad. But Gaeten's gibberish is comedy gold.
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Old 26th November 2014, 11:13 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When one fellow will have all the wealth of the earth, there won't be nothing left for the next 10 billions, you didn't heard about mathematic.
That, Gaetan, is complete and utter rubbish.

Economics is not and can never be a zero-sum game, where the resources are permanently fixed and when one person gains, someone else automatically loses.

That's not how it works at all.

It is possible for virtually anyone to increase their resources through their own efforts. It could be something as simple as standing on a corner with a guitar, playing songs and having passers-by throw coins into the guitar case. When a busker on a street corner makes $20.00 by singing and playing for an hour or two, he has exchanged a service -- His musical talent and knowledge of songs -- for money. The people who gave him money received something in exchange, the pleasure of listening to a musician, and although they gave him some money they did not "lose" anything.

The idea that one person could ever control all the money on Earth is so absurd that I'm just going to sit here and shake My head at the absurdity. Mathematics has nothing to do with it.
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Old 27th November 2014, 02:26 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Astreja View Post
Economics is not and can never be a zero-sum game
Yes it can, it can even be a negative sum game (see arms races, and most forms of protectionism)
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Old 27th November 2014, 09:29 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Astreja View Post
It is possible for virtually anyone to increase their resources through their own efforts. It could be something as simple as standing on a corner with a guitar, playing songs and having passers-by throw coins into the guitar case. When a busker on a street corner makes $20.00 by singing and playing for an hour or two, he has exchanged a service -- His musical talent and knowledge of songs -- for money.
They cannot do that because there is nothing left, no money. If that fellow owning the money is generous he'll throw you biscuit and water but they do that already.

Last edited by Gaetan; 27th November 2014 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 27th November 2014, 09:31 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
They cannot do that because there is nothing left, no money.
How much money did Adam and Eve have?
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Old 27th November 2014, 09:52 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
How much money did Adam and Eve have?
I guess you changed your mind and you are now supporting the no money system.
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Old 27th November 2014, 01:43 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
They cannot do that because there is nothing left, no money. If that fellow owning the money is generous he'll throw you biscuit and water but they do that already.
Duckling Logic 101: If someone throws a coin into a guitar case, the person throwing the coin must have All the Money in the World because no one else has any at all.

Hmm... (Springy G opens up a new browser window and checks Her bank balance) ...Nope, just My regular biweekly paycheque in there, plus what I had before this morning's payroll deposit. Maybe I should be paying the street musicians more frequently.
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Old 27th November 2014, 06:16 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I guess you changed your mind and you are now supporting the no money system.
No. I suspect that you realize that the answer to that nullifies your entire argument and that's why you dishonestly avoid answering.

How much money did Adam and Eve have?
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Old 27th November 2014, 06:56 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When one fellow will have all the wealth of the earth, there won't be nothing left for the next 10 billions, you didn't heard about mathematic.
Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
How much money did Adam and Eve have?
I must admit to being puzzled by that response.

Let's say that they didn't have money. What does that mean for the text that you quoted?
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Old 28th November 2014, 12:32 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I guess you changed your mind and you are now supporting the no money system.
It's pretty clear that a no money system cannot work in the modern world. In fact, money is what helped the world to become civilized where money could be used instead of bartering and trading but your proposal to eliminate money is unrealistic and a fantasy. I would also note that there is no evidence that you have dispersed your money in a good faith effort to support your cause.
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Old 28th November 2014, 07:05 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
It's pretty clear that a no money system cannot work in the modern world. In fact, money is what helped the world to become civilized
You call that civilized when the fellows change side of the street in the story of the good samaritan, what is civilized is to give what people want for free, asking something in exchange is evil.

Here is some friends of mine:

The angel that i know appeared to me when i was a patient in a hospital and was in the dining room watching the television. She was a female angel. She had the feature of a young girl of eighteen years old. She had brown hair to her shoulders and wore a long blue and red dress ankle deep. She held herself about one meter in the air not being affected by gravity. She wore two broad brown wings on her back between the level of her head and knees.

Among the peoples living in space,there are the extraterrestrial beings with big ears.These ones are characterized by their ears who look like ours, but are four times bigger.They have a personality of love.They like everybody.I know that because i was possessed by one of these once in a while feeling his love.So, this extraterrestrial being was sometimes inside me,occasionally one of his ears use to materialize itself,describing slow circles like if he‘d be listening carefully somebody,detaching from him,and flying across the room.He use to lose his ears in this way but regenarate them quikly.I am proud of my friends of extraterrestrial origin.

The marionette djinns are kind young girls. They live in my neighborhood. They are of human form but they have their head round as a ball. They are usually of reduced shape of 10 cm. high because there are more at ease like that. They wear mini dress or dress at knees. I call them marionette because they have generally a thread attatch to their back and the other end of the thread somewere else, on a wall or a person as for exemples. This permits to stay close to their point of interest. They are very courageous. I have the luck to have some of them attatch upon me and to have them as friends.

Last edited by Gaetan; 28th November 2014 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 28th November 2014, 07:10 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
asking something in exchange is evil.
Says who?

And why don't you answer the question about how much money Adam and Eve had?
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Old 28th November 2014, 10:03 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You call that civilized when the fellows change side of the street in the story of the good samaritan, what is civilized is to give what people want for free, asking something in exchange is evil.

Here is some friends of mine:

The angel that i know appeared to me when i was a patient in a hospital and was in the dining room watching the television. She was a female angel. She had the feature of a young girl of eighteen years old. She had brown hair to her shoulders and wore a long blue and red dress ankle deep. She held herself about one meter in the air not being affected by gravity. She wore two broad brown wings on her back between the level of her head and knees.

Among the peoples living in space,there are the extraterrestrial beings with big ears.These ones are characterized by their ears who look like ours, but are four times bigger.They have a personality of love.They like everybody.I know that because i was possessed by one of these once in a while feeling his love.So, this extraterrestrial being was sometimes inside me,occasionally one of his ears use to materialize itself,describing slow circles like if he‘d be listening carefully somebody,detaching from him,and flying across the room.He use to lose his ears in this way but regenarate them quikly.I am proud of my friends of extraterrestrial origin.

The marionette djinns are kind young girls. They live in my neighborhood. They are of human form but they have their head round as a ball. They are usually of reduced shape of 10 cm. high because there are more at ease like that. They wear mini dress or dress at knees. I call them marionette because they have generally a thread attatch to their back and the other end of the thread somewere else, on a wall or a person as for exemples. This permits to stay close to their point of interest. They are very courageous. I have the luck to have some of them attatch upon me and to have them as friends.
Interesting story but it still doesn't provide ay evidence that money is evil and should not be used.

What you don't seem to get is even if you removed money from this world, something will take its place as a measurement of value or resources. A man with livestock and crops would then become "rich".

But it's easier to have an exchange of money instead of a bartering system exchanging a chicken for some apples for example. Money just made society efficient and is evidenced by the advance of society since the introduction of money.
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Old 28th November 2014, 10:39 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Here is some friends of mine:

The angel that i know appeared to me when i was a patient in a hospital and was in the dining room watching the television. She was a female angel. She had the feature of a young girl of eighteen years old. She had brown hair to her shoulders and wore a long blue and red dress ankle deep. She held herself about one meter in the air not being affected by gravity. She wore two broad brown wings on her back between the level of her head and knees.

Among the peoples living in space,there are the extraterrestrial beings with big ears.These ones are characterized by their ears who look like ours, but are four times bigger.They have a personality of love.They like everybody.I know that because i was possessed by one of these once in a while feeling his love.So, this extraterrestrial being was sometimes inside me,occasionally one of his ears use to materialize itself,describing slow circles like if he‘d be listening carefully somebody,detaching from him,and flying across the room.He use to lose his ears in this way but regenarate them quikly.I am proud of my friends of extraterrestrial origin.

The marionette djinns are kind young girls. They live in my neighborhood. They are of human form but they have their head round as a ball. They are usually of reduced shape of 10 cm. high because there are more at ease like that. They wear mini dress or dress at knees. I call them marionette because they have generally a thread attatch to their back and the other end of the thread somewere else, on a wall or a person as for exemples. This permits to stay close to their point of interest. They are very courageous. I have the luck to have some of them attatch upon me and to have them as friends.
So this part that you added has nothing to do with money?
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Old 28th November 2014, 11:32 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
So this part that you added has nothing to do with money?
It's a rehash of his invisible friends nonsense.
At least this time he missed out the bit about aliens who are giant flying shoulder blades.
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Old 18th December 2014, 08:30 AM   #108
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When you diminish the income of rich people you create jobs. The government has to rise the income tax of rich and compensate the loss of income by lowering the income tax of the middle class and poors. By this way the majority of people will have more income and more money to spend and there will be more consumers, so more consumers, more need job creation to fulfill their need, more wealth created. The syndicalisation should be compulsory because this rise the income of workers and lower the income of rich in this way and this have the same effect of redistribution of money through income tax. In a system of money, you need consumers to have the money circulate, it is so stupid as that, that why the best way is simply to abolish money than recirculate and redistribute it. but remember that, when you lower the income of rich, you rise the income of the majority and create jobs and wealth.
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Old 18th December 2014, 08:39 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Among the peoples living in space,there are the extraterrestrial beings with big ears.These ones are characterized by their ears who look like ours, but are four times bigger.They have a personality of love.They like everybody.
...are you talking about Ferengi? While they do have very strong opinions on the topic of money, they are not likely in favor of abolishing it.
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Old 18th December 2014, 08:41 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When you diminish the income of rich people you create jobs.
Actually, no. Just the opposite so you should stop making things up.

Quote:
The government has to rise the income tax of rich and compensate the loss of income by lowering the income tax of the middle class and poors.
I can agree with this.

Quote:
By this way the majority of people will have more income and more money to spend and there will be more consumers, so more consumers, more need job creation to fulfill their need, more wealth created.
I'm glad to see that you've given up on your 'zero sum game' thinking. Also glad to see that you now understand the intrinsic value of monetary systems.

Quote:
The syndicalisation should be compulsory because this rise the income of workers and lower the income of rich in this way and this have the same effect of redistribution of money through income tax. In a system of money, you need consumers to have the money circulate, it is so stupid as that, that why the best way is simply to abolish money than recirculate and redistribute it. but remember that, when you lower the income of rich, you rise the income of the majority and create jobs and wealth.
But then you just go off the rails and retreat to your weird religious chanting.

Why would the best way not be to simply give all the poors millions of dollars?
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Old 18th December 2014, 09:02 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Actually, no. Just the opposite so you should stop making things up.
You just copy what say the servants of the oligarths, the republican or medias idioties but you have no logic arguments to support what you say.


Quote:
Why would the best way not be to simply give all the poors millions of dollars?
That's a good idea but the money has to come from rich people
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Old 18th December 2014, 09:19 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You just copy what say the servants of the oligarths, the republican or medias idioties but you have no logic arguments to support what you say.
No, you just blurt out what your weird religion tells you to think.

Quote:
That's a good idea but the money has to come from rich people
Why?
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Old 18th December 2014, 09:25 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
...are you talking about Ferengi? While they do have very strong opinions on the topic of money, they are not likely in favor of abolishing it.
Come on! Big Ears isn't even a terrestrial! He's a Brownie who lives in a toad stool and is Noddy's friend and mentor.
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Old 18th December 2014, 09:26 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Why?
Because printing more money is just idioties, it doesn't create more values and it shouldn't be done.
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Old 18th December 2014, 09:30 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Because printing more money is just idioties, it doesn't create more values and it shouldn't be done.
I think you just converted to Tippitism.
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Old 18th December 2014, 10:19 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
That's a good idea but the money has to come from rich people
You seem fixated on this "Robin Hood" style of economy where you take from the rich and give to the poor.

While it might help for a while, eventually the rich will become depleted and then you'll have nothing to draw from. This is already happening to some extent in the US where the I believe about 1/4 of society depends on government assistance and we're creating a welfare mentality economy.
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Old 18th December 2014, 10:27 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Because printing more money is just idioties, it doesn't create more values and it shouldn't be done.
And yet more money has been printed and there is more wealth and value. You aren't making sense. You're back to inane rambling about it being a zero sum game, that someone must lose something for someone else to gain something. It just isn't true, regardless of what your weird religion says.
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Old 18th December 2014, 10:54 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
You seem fixated on this "Robin Hood" style of economy where you take from the rich and give to the poor.

While it might help for a while, eventually the rich will become depleted and then you'll have nothing to draw from. This is already happening to some extent in the US where the I believe about 1/4 of society depends on government assistance and we're creating a welfare mentality economy.
That's not a problem. You just rob from the poor who are now rich and give to the rich who are now poor.
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Old 18th December 2014, 02:19 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's not a problem. You just rob from the poor who are now rich and give to the rich who are now poor.
Why to not give everybody an equal share and start the Monopoly game all over again.
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Old 18th December 2014, 02:21 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Why to not give everybody an equal share and start the Monopoly game all over again.
How often do you plan to reset the game?
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