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Tags Brilliant Light Power , free energy , Randell Mills

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Old 9th January 2017, 10:49 PM   #161
RussDill
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Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
I'm not betting with any of my bitcoins. Their value could go up exponentially during that time as Venezuela continues to implode. That's my retirement fund you're talking about.
Any money you lose by betting could be money that you buy BTC with. If I bet you with BTC and you lose, you could purchase additional BTC with the money. The outcome is the same. Assets are assets are assets. It's how you store those assets that counts.
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Old 9th January 2017, 11:03 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Well, it's not like we've studied the hydrogen atom in any detail. This sub-ground state could be lurking out there, unknown by mainstream science, in much the same way that modern mathematics has overlooked the possibility of a hitherto unknown integer between 0 and 1.
If there is a sub-ground state below the ground state of the hydrogen atom, then hydrogen atoms in the ground state will spontaneously drop to the sub-ground state, without any outside help. The fact that they haven't done so is already evidence that said state doesn't exist.
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Old 9th January 2017, 11:28 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
I'm not betting with any of my bitcoins. Their value could go up exponentially during that time as Venezuela continues to implode. That's my retirement fund you're talking about.
But the thing works, right? So what are you worrying about? He's offering to give you 1 BTC.
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Old 9th January 2017, 11:39 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
But the thing works, right? So what are you worrying about? He's offering to give you 1 BTC.
The bet isn't if it works. The bet is that Columbia Tech will have successfully finished prototyping and refinement R&D, with BrLP having a least one commercial client operating a production SunCell for power within a year and a half.

That's a very different bet than just saying 'it works'.

It already works.
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Old 9th January 2017, 11:39 PM   #165
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I have an electric heater that puts out 3000 watts. It is good enough to heat my bedroom in the winter okay. I'd say it gets the temp in my room up by about 10C.

Now we get a device that puts out 1,000,000 watts in waste heat. Put the same device in my room and it will heat it to a temperature 3000x greater. So my bedroom ends up at a temperature of 30,000C, which, off the top of my head, is 6 times hotter than the surface of the sun.

Of course that heat will move through my house and my room will end up a little cooler, but it may end up leaving my entire house at around 5000 C. Maybe I can prevent that by insulating the device and turning it off to cool when necessary. I can maybe do some sort of active cooling by running pipes of water over it or something like that, but that's still going to be a lot of heat to deal with for a device I'm supposed to just keep in my garage or backyard. Whatever method is used to deal with all this waste heat will take up so much space (and require enough mass) to negate any hope for portability.

Disclaimer: These numbers are probably somewhat inaccurate, but as an off the top of my head exercise I think they are close enough to the actual situation that they illustrate a very real issue that hasn't been considered: how do you deal with the massive amount of heat coming off of this device? At the very least it's a very dangerous fire hazard.
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Old 9th January 2017, 11:44 PM   #166
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According to Mills, the waste heat will be about 250 kw per power plant, which is about the same as a Chevrolet Kodiak's engine puts out at peak power. An H1 Hummer puts out 224 kW. A BMW 7 series puts out 327 kW.

So yeah, it will heat your room up.

Which is why you don't put it in your bedroom.

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Old 10th January 2017, 12:00 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
That's obviously not a valid reason, given that since Mills has demonstrated hydrogen can indeed to go a lower ground state, ipso facto, QM is wrong.

He's already demonstrated this. The only problem is that you will not believe it until you have a generator parked in your driveway powering your home. Even then, you probably still won't believe it.
You're correct on one thing; I don't believe it. There have been a lot of charlatans that have produced graphs and prototypes and YouTube videos, but just like Mills have never had their work replicated on a widespread independent scale, for the simple reason that just like Mills their central claims are bogus.

Yes, you're sure he has, and you have a big chip on your shoulder; but you've already demonstrated your lack of understanding of some pretty basic physical principles, as well as various related engineering ones. Yet, when these are pointed out to you, instead of questioning your own conclusions, you dig further into them. I'm not trying to insult you; I'm trying to keep you from getting fleeced. When you can't admit you're wrong about things you clearly don't understand, like spacecraft navigation, that's a danger sign - especially when people like asking you for money for some alleged super-technology they've been making and breaking promises in for many years.

But let's suppose you're right, and in year or two my neighbors start getting cheap power units delivered right and left, and their power meters start spinning backwards continuously (and the waste heat starts peeling the paint off their homes, but never mind that). Of course I'd believe such unambiguous proof. As I've said, I wold be delighted to be wrong about this. But when will you acknowledge the whole thing is a scam? When the revolution hasn't come in five years? Ten? Twenty?
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Old 10th January 2017, 12:09 AM   #168
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I love how you just throw this out there "you've already demonstrated your lack of understanding of some pretty basic physical principles, as well as various related engineering ones" without any proof or substantiation.

You are the one who is patently and plainly wrong sir. You have nothing left to argue except ad homs.

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Old 10th January 2017, 12:34 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
PV is an established technology.

Masimo Semiconductor already has the concentrator PV cells developed and will be delivering the first PV dome on the 13th.

Mills doesn't have to wait for anything.
The claims are a tad diffuse but happy to take your word for it.

Now why has he waited until now to get these "PV cells" when he has had a power supply that could have been used back in 1996 (or earlier) with existing technology.
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Old 10th January 2017, 12:39 AM   #170
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It's not an ad hominem fallacy to point out your lack of understanding in fields you brought up as a way to buttress your claims, especially after pointing out why some of those claims were wrong (in this case, your auxiliary claims about the speed of light). More importantly, I didn't say you were wrong because you didn't understand certain principles; I (and others) pointed out why you were wrong and cautioned you against redoubling your investment in such claims without questioning your own understanding.

I repeat: it's a danger sign when you stubbornly repeat your erroneous claims in areas you clearly don't understand - the spacecraft navigation one was one example. You didn't anticipate the counterexample, because you didn't grasp the consequences of your auxiliary claim (G varying "all over the place"), because you don't really understand the topic. If you can't deal with being wrong on a tangent, how can you ever reevaluate your buy-in on the main topic?

In any case, I've given you a realistic (according to your words) scenario in which I would admit I was wrong. Again, when would you admit this whole thing is bogus? Not the distractions of the conversion technology; I mean the core claim of hydrino energy production. When there's no independent deployment of functioning generators in five years? Ten? Twenty?
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Old 10th January 2017, 12:56 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
According to Mills, the waste heat will be about 250 kw per power plant, which is about the same as a Chevrolet Kodiak's engine puts out at peak power. An H1 Hummer puts out 224 kW. A BMW 7 series puts out 327 kW.

So yeah, it will heat your room up.

Which is why you don't put it in your bedroom.
You said it produces 1MW of power. Of this, 50 kW is converted to electricity. It puts out another 250 kW of waste heat.

Where does the other 700 kW of power go?

Or are we going to violate conservation of energy as well?
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Old 10th January 2017, 01:18 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You said it produces 1MW of power. Of this, 50 kW is converted to electricity. It puts out another 250 kW of waste heat.

Where does the other 700 kW of power go?

Or are we going to violate conservation of energy as well?
Makey-uppie figures indicate an efficiency of 5%, which is appalling. You could hook up a Stirling engine to the exhaust heat output, link it to a generator, and do better than the original claimed electrickery output. Hell you could feed the heat into a steam engine and do better.
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Old 10th January 2017, 01:32 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You said it produces 1MW of power. Of this, 50 kW is converted to electricity. It puts out another 250 kW of waste heat.

Where does the other 700 kW of power go?

Or are we going to violate conservation of energy as well?
It has produced up to one megawatt continuous power in testing.

Mills said they will run the bulb at 330 kw to start.

Mills said they will get about 11 to 20% conversion efficiency, producing around 50 kw of power depending on numerous factors. 50 kw is a ball park.
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Old 10th January 2017, 01:36 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
It has produced up to one megawatt continuous power in testing.

Mills said they will run the bulb at 330 kw to start.

Mills said they will get about 11 to 20% conversion efficiency, producing around 50 kw of power depending on numerous factors. 50 kw is a ball park.
Like I said, makey-uppie figures. Why are we dealing with ball park numbers if this thing has been extensively tested? Why can't we just go to the physics publication it has been published in and read the exact data?
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Old 10th January 2017, 02:18 AM   #175
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I'm very curious how it is that people find themselves believing this stuff. Did they analyze the science and see that it is a possible machine to build? Well, no, because the claim is that it breaks currently known laws of physics. Have they replicated these new physics themselves through experimentation? nope. What about completely independent labs with a reputation for particle physics...nope, not that either. How about a flashy youtube video, like on those flexfunding indeogogo campaigns....nope, not that either. A track record of making similar products that turned out to actually work? Nope...not that either.
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Old 10th January 2017, 02:21 AM   #176
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Perhaps I'm just cynical, but if you'd really invented free energy you wouldn't sell the device, you'd use it yourself and sell the energy.
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Old 10th January 2017, 02:22 AM   #177
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Oh geez, they are now claiming that they are converting hydrogen to dark matter.

ETA: "That new state of matter is from our spectroscopy measurements and analytical tests we've done over has shown that it's the identity of dark matter"

Anyone who knows even the bare minimum about dark matter and spectroscopy knows instantly the extreme quantity of bovine excrement this guy is pushing and how much he must be relying on the total lack of physics knowledge of his investors.
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Old 10th January 2017, 03:25 AM   #178
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This thing is not fuel free - it converts hydrogen into hydrinos. That's a concern when you are going to start converting olympic-sized swimming pools worth of water. I like water.

I haven't yet seen how these hydrinos are supposed to be disposed of. Remember how great nuclear sounded until someone pointed out we have to store all the waste?

I don't want hydrinos getting into the environment, causing damage. What is he doing with them now?
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Old 10th January 2017, 03:42 AM   #179
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It seems that BLP (used to be Black Light Power), has been making precisely the same claims (commercially ready in the next 12 to 18 months) since 2008:

Quote:
Since 1999, Robert L. Park, emeritus professor of physics at the University of Maryland and a notable skeptic, has been particularly critical of BLP. In 2008, Park wrote:

"BlackLight Power (BLP), founded 17 years ago as HydroCatalysis, announced last week that the company had successfully tested a prototype power system that would generate 50 KW of thermal power. BLP anticipates delivery of the new power system in 12 to 18 months. The BLP process,[35] discovered by Randy Mills, is said to coax hydrogen atoms into a "state below the ground state", called the "hydrino." There is no independent scientific confirmation of the hydrino, and BLP has a patent problem. So they have nothing to sell but bull ****. The company is therefore dependent on investors with deep pockets and shallow brains." – Park
Wiki.
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Old 10th January 2017, 04:05 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It seems that BLP (used to be Black Light Power), has been making precisely the same claims (commercially ready in the next 12 to 18 months) since 2008:

Wiki.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:00 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
That's obviously not a valid reason, given that since Mills has demonstrated hydrogen can indeed to go a lower ground state, ipso facto, QM is wrong.
That's a stupendously large claim. I assume that there are no peer reviewed publications in respectable physics journals to back it up. In spite of the claim having been made for decades. No, of course not. Silly me.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:25 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by hecd2 View Post
That's a stupendously large claim. I assume that there are no peer reviewed publications in respectable physics journals to back it up. In spite of the claim having been made for decades. No, of course not. Silly me.
That is because the evil oil industry conspiracy is preventing publication.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:26 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
Oh geez, they are now claiming that they are converting hydrogen to dark matter.

ETA: "That new state of matter is from our spectroscopy measurements and analytical tests we've done over has shown that it's the identity of dark matter"

Anyone who knows even the bare minimum about dark matter and spectroscopy knows instantly the extreme quantity of bovine excrement this guy is pushing and how much he must be relying on the total lack of physics knowledge of his investors.
Yep. Dark matter as defined today does not emit or interact in the electromagnetic spectrum. For all practical intent and purpose it would be invisible (and if you take the weakly interacting route, it would still be be an extraordinary claim as we need enormous quantity of those to be passing through pool sized detectors to hope to get 1 hit).

So going to the conclusion it is dark matter from the electromagnetic spectrum is.... Interesting to say the least.

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Old 10th January 2017, 05:33 AM   #184
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Here is a dark matter detector completed last year : https://news.brown.edu/articles/2016/07/lux

There are others, XENON, PAndaX, see dark matter wiki for a sumamry of current result and set up.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:54 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Here is a dark matter detector completed last year : https://news.brown.edu/articles/2016/07/lux

There are others, XENON, PAndaX, see dark matter wiki for a sumamry of current result and set up.
From your link: "LUX’s sensitivity far exceeded the goals for the project, collaboration scientists said, but yielded no trace of a dark matter particle."
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:04 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
Oh geez, they are now claiming that they are converting hydrogen to dark matter.

ETA: "That new state of matter is from our spectroscopy measurements and analytical tests we've done over has shown that it's the identity of dark matter"
Bwhahaha! Where do they say that?

Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
Anyone who knows even the bare minimum about dark matter and spectroscopy knows instantly the extreme quantity of bovine excrement this guy is pushing and how much he must be relying on the total lack of physics knowledge of his investors.
Yeah, as you and Aepervius point out, claiming to have created dark matter is a gigantic (and bogus) claim, but claiming to have detected it with their setup at all is ridiculous, and claiming they detected it through spectroscopy is absolutely hilarious. It's like saying, "we created enough antimatter that we were able to put it in a test tube and identify it with color changes in litmus paper".

Ha ha ha! Did they really say that? That's priceless.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:14 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Has everyone forgotten Andrea RossiWP and his energy catalyser? Alas, not producing useful power ... yet!
Free energy scams have been around for a long time.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:16 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
http://pesn.com/2008/05/29/9500481_B...rcially_ready/

Going commercial in 2008. Quite similar to your thread title.
Long enough ago for the gullible to have forgotten.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:17 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
My first thought was 'why not just use it as heat source for a steam turbine'.
That would make detecting the scam too easy.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:27 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Yeah, as you and Aepervius point out, claiming to have created dark matter is a gigantic (and bogus) claim, but claiming to have detected it with their setup at all is ridiculous, and claiming they detected it through spectroscopy is absolutely hilarious. It's like saying, "we created enough antimatter that we were able to put it in a test tube and identify it with color changes in litmus paper".
I don't think they do what they say, but it's not so ridiculous as it first sounds. You could "detect" something that didn't appear that should have. So, for example, you put hydrogen in and it disappears (because it turned into "invisible" hydrinos). You can say you've detected the creation of something you can't detect. Provided, of course, you accept some kind of conservation law.

I could be wrong, but I think that's how neutrinos were first suspected in particle detectors - missing stuff.

ETA: From wiki: "The neutrino[nb 1] was postulated first by Wolfgang Pauli in 1930 to explain how beta decay could conserve energy, momentum, and angular momentum (spin). In contrast to Niels Bohr, who proposed a statistical version of the conservation laws to explain the observed continuous energy spectra in beta decay, Pauli hypothesized an undetected particle that he called a "neutron", using the same -on ending employed for naming both the proton and the electron. He considered that the new particle was emitted from the nucleus together with the electron or beta particle in the process of beta decay."

And: "The natural explanation of the beta decay spectrum as first measured in 1934 was that only a limited (and conserved) amount of energy was available, and a new particle was sometimes taking a varying fraction of this limited energy, leaving the rest for the beta particle. Pauli made use of the occasion to publicly emphasize that the still-undetected "neutrino" must be an actual particle."

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Old 10th January 2017, 06:57 AM   #191
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:25 AM   #192
Steve001
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A definite claim has been made along with a time frame. If any thread deserved to a a sticky this one is it. Let's see what really happens a year from now.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:29 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by marplots
I don't think they do what they say, but it's not so ridiculous as it first sounds. You could "detect" something that didn't appear that should have....
Sure, but if they said the earlier quote, they are claiming to have detected dark matter directly, and through spectroscopy. That's literally impossible.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:34 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Free energy scams have been around for a long time.
It's too bad free energy is so expensive.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:41 AM   #195
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particle physics

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Like I said, makey-uppie figures. Why are we dealing with ball park numbers if this thing has been extensively tested? Why can't we just go to the physics publication it has been published in and read the exact data?
Yes I was wondering the same thing. Is there a submission to the Journal of Particle Physics proving the existence of the Hydrino ? If not I guess the excuse will be engineers at BPL have just been too busy to get the submission done . . .
Who needs the Large Hadron Collider when you have BPL.
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Old 10th January 2017, 08:25 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
Yes I was wondering the same thing. Is there a submission to the Journal of Particle Physics proving the existence of the Hydrino ? If not I guess the excuse will be engineers at BPL have just been too busy to get the submission done . . .
Who needs the Large Hadron Collider when you have BPL.
Soft X-ray Continuum Radiation from Low-Energy Pinch Discharges – R. Mills, R. Booker, Y. Lu, J. Plasma Physics, Vol. 79 (2013) 489–507. DOI: 10.1017/S0022377812001109.

Substantial Doppler Broadening of Atomic-Hydrogen Lines in DC and Capacitively Coupled RF Plasmas – K. Akhtar, J.E. Scharer, R.L. Mills, 2009 J. Phys. D: Appl. Phys., Vol. 42, Issue 13, 135207 (12pp), doi:10.1088/0022-3727/42/13/135207.

High-Power-Density Catalyst Induced Hydrino Transition (CIHT) Electrochemical Cell – R. Mills, J. Lotoski, J. Kong, G. Chu, J. He, J. Trevey, Int. J. Hydrogen Energy, 39 (2014), DOI: 10.1016/j.ijhydene.2014.06.153. pp. 14512–14530.
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:02 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
Soft X-ray Continuum Radiation from Low-Energy Pinch Discharges – R. Mills, R. Booker, Y. Lu, J. Plasma Physics, Vol. 79 (2013) 489–507. DOI: 10.1017/S0022377812001109.

Substantial Doppler Broadening of Atomic-Hydrogen Lines in DC and Capacitively Coupled RF Plasmas – K. Akhtar, J.E. Scharer, R.L. Mills, 2009 J. Phys. D: Appl. Phys., Vol. 42, Issue 13, 135207 (12pp), doi:10.1088/0022-3727/42/13/135207.

High-Power-Density Catalyst Induced Hydrino Transition (CIHT) Electrochemical Cell – R. Mills, J. Lotoski, J. Kong, G. Chu, J. He, J. Trevey, Int. J. Hydrogen Energy, 39 (2014), DOI: 10.1016/j.ijhydene.2014.06.153. pp. 14512–14530.
Do you have access to the actual publications? Because I do and I thought I would motor over to the articles themselves to see what they actually say:

First line of citation #1: "Under a study contracted by GEN3 Partners..." Also it only presents results that it claims it cannot explain, not any evidence for hydrinos.

First and senior authors of citation #2 are Blacklight Power directors or employs. Even so, and similar to manuscript #1, it presents a claim that their results, involving broadening of emission profile, cannot be easily explained based on current theories but in fact never mentions hydrinos per se (although some citations in its reference list do).

Citation #3 does expressively interpret their results as evidence of hydrino. But all authors of citation #3 are Blacklight Power directors or employees.

Forgive me for being skeptical.
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:22 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
I repeat: it's a danger sign when you stubbornly repeat your erroneous claims in areas you clearly don't understand - the spacecraft navigation one was one example.
I said it was possible to navigate around the solar system using celestial navigation and a gross approximation of G, like the one that was taken by Cavendish back in 1798. I'm still struggling to understand how I'm wrong about this. Simply claiming I'm wrong is meaningless.

Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
You didn't anticipate the counterexample, because you didn't grasp the consequences of your auxiliary claim (G varying "all over the place"), because you don't really understand the topic. If you can't deal with being wrong on a tangent, how can you ever reevaluate your buy-in on the main topic?
I don't understand what you are talking about. Measurements of G are all over the place. The Scientific American has done several articles and podcasts about this. I made this claim in reference to G not being proven to be a constant, which it is not. It is simply defined, not empirically proven, to be a constant.

Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
In any case, I've given you a realistic (according to your words) scenario in which I would admit I was wrong. Again, when would you admit this whole thing is bogus? Not the distractions of the conversion technology; I mean the core claim of hydrino energy production. When there's no independent deployment of functioning generators in five years? Ten? Twenty?
There hasn't been an independent deployment of a Tokamak in a commercial role either. So what? How long has the Tokamak project been running for? How many billions have been spent on it again? I guess fusion isn't real either.

Last edited by michaelsuede; 10th January 2017 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:32 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
There hasn't been an independent deployment of a Tokamak in a commercial role either. So what? How long has the Tokamak project been running for? How many billions have been spent on it again? I guess fusion isn't real either.
That hardly seems equivalent to your claims.
You are saying that by March this year a production model will be available.
No one ever claimed that wrt Tokomak.
You assured me specifically that this model will not see it's production scraped due to promises of even greater power o/p from a redesign. What other issues then can we expect to arise that will stop production?

The question then stands, if this hydrino based tech is not rolled out in one year, 5 years, 10 years will you admit it's bogus?
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:38 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
They will hit the market in a year, but it will take a few years to ramp up production.

They will take over the energy market much like cell phones took over the phone market. It will happen quickly, but not overnight.
Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
According to Columbia Tech, they will be field testing in 6 months and be ready for production 6 months after that.
............
So what exactly constitutes "hitting the market" according to you? They plan on initially leasing units to fixed businesses like restaurants or manufacturing centers, then moving on to setting up leasing centers in the same fashion as the solar market for residential is setup now.

So they might not offer public leases for sale like a car dealership at first, but rather negotiate with individual businesses for lease terms. If we go by my metric of units installed in customer's business, would a fully functional prototype installation count?
Originally Posted by michaelsuede View Post
Oh believe me, I'll be making a stink once the first prototype generator goes public. We might see that by February or March.
60 days to a public prototype, 6 months for testing.

Ready for production and installation in businesses, 12 months from now.

If this does not happen in the year time frame, or in double that or in five or tens years, despite the definite claims of the OP, what does it say about the veracity of the underlying Nobel Prize worthy, supposed new, physics?

Last edited by jaydeehess; 10th January 2017 at 10:41 AM.
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