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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 30th January 2017, 06:13 AM   #121
NotEvenWrong
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Vixen,
Google translate gives this for the same passage:

Quote:
The fact that there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife is because once while we cooked together, me, moving into the house wielding the knife
Now I am not saying Google translate is perfect, but let's just say you have a less than stellar record of vetting sources. Are you sure the guy who thinks he is God is the most reliable source of info on this? Maaaybe you should validate with another translation hmm? (Probably not from PMF lol. You know drinking from the same kool aid and all that.)
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Old 30th January 2017, 06:32 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
I was talking about Hellmann, of course. Have you linked to an independent expert refuting the C&V report yet? Even casual criticism (vs a full analysis) would be welcome.
C&V was refuted successfully to the Chieffi Supreme Court. Do keep up!
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Old 30th January 2017, 06:35 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Didn't anyone teach you about the birds and the bees? I have a friend of mine that occasionally wears a dress. It doesn't make him a woman.
I was referring to your use of logical fallacy. Your saying, 'Meredith sent a kiss to Amanda in a text on the day of Halloween, therefore it is possible Amanda hugged Mez in the interim to leave a trace of Mez' DNA on Raff's kitchen knife', is really no different from the logic, 'If my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt'.
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Old 30th January 2017, 06:39 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
I do not know if it has a defined meaning within Italian law. To me, it means that at various points in their inept investigation they simply forgot that at other times they thought of some other item of evidence as critical, then dropped it as if they'd never constructed things the way they once had.

I could be wrong, but it seems akin to always moving the goalposts.
Don't you think Marasca should have spelt out exactly in which way as found at trial and second instance it was proven?
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Old 30th January 2017, 06:41 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by toto View Post
Things that were forgotten during the investigation?

Such as...?

Please indicate where in the MR these are listed.
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Old 30th January 2017, 06:42 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Really? So why is it that you disagree with the acquittal? Did you stop being objective?
It does not conform to legal standards.
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Old 30th January 2017, 06:44 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Why does an objective commentator need to use the word "ingrate"?
It's an indication of character. If someone springs you from jail, be they rich man, poor man, beggar man or thief, shouldn't you have the good grace to say, 'Thank you!'...?
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Old 30th January 2017, 06:47 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Mike1711 View Post
So...about the same odds that,...sayyy, Leicester City were given to win the league last year?
The same odds as QPR winning anything....<g>
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Old 30th January 2017, 06:53 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes to all of this - and it may be a significant factor as to why the application was assigned to a Chamber rather than Committee.


ETA: And Boninsegna is here apparently pointing out that the police actually tried to use the "look how nice we were to her in this way and that way!" argument to try to refute Knox's accusations that they had mistreated her in plenty of other ways (whether physical, psychological or legal). Indeed, Boninsegna points to one particular point which the police thought was "in their favour" - the intervention of interpreter Donnino to try to convince Knox that she might be suffering from traumatic amnesia, by way of an anecdote about her (Donnino's) experience when she broke her ankle - which was actually an explicitly unlawful breach!! As Boninsegna states: all that was important in that interrogation was that Knox was afforded her full and proper rights under the law at all times, and it's perfectly clear to Boninsegna that this wasn't the case.

(By the way, it's worth noting that Boninsegna didn't conclude that the police "treated Knox too kindly" or any such crap - and her use of the (translated) term "sugarcoated" is clearly a rather cynical reference to the way the police tried to convince Boninsegna so hugely kindly and generously etc (to "sugarcoat" something means to artificially try to make something seem nicer than it actually is.....))

OK, so the police are human, trying to do their best in a most extraordinary situation. There has been a horrific sadistic murder and here they are confronted with someone claiming to have been there.

They may have made mistakes, but to put it into perspective, they behaved in an ethical way to the best of their ability in face of unkind claims by Amanda that they starved her, beat her, interrogated her for 53 hours, 'with tag teams of twelve' changing every hour, etc.etc.

The police are used to dealing with low-life psychopathic liars, so will have been perfectly conscious of the need to make sure they are seen to have followed all of the correct procedures.

They correctly terminated the interview as soon as Amanda made her confession and false allegation against her boss, Patrick.

Notwithstanding the unsubstantiated allegations against the police, most of which can be seen to be untrue, and the slaps to the head may or may not have happened (but her lawyer did not lodge a complaint as was his legal obligation), IMV the biggest mistake by the police was to issue a calunnia charge against her in this, as it backfired spectacularly. Of course a guilty suspect will make up lies. <shrug> It's par for the course.
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Old 30th January 2017, 07:01 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
On the first highlighted part:
You are wrong, Dottore Mignini was sanctioned for preventing access to a lawyer.
Dottore Mignini's defense is that Profazio (who signed these documents must have misunderstood him.

On the second highlighted part, it looks like you are refering to that infamous diary entry where "Raff" writes about having a lawyer (Tedeschi) at the Matteini hearing (but not before).
Interesting thing about this one is that we only know about this "diary entry" because it was published by a newspaper...
Fact is, that neither Lumumba (blame Knox for that), Knox, nor Sollecito had contact to legal aid until just minutes before the Matteini hearing, as it was ordered by Dottore Mignini...
OK fair enough. I would say, that as this was a crime considered by the police of having been committed in concert with several, and owing to the barbaric and sadistic nature of the crime, there was every possibility that the perps might seek out other victims, on a serial murder spree, then I can see the rationale of putting them under observation, as it were, without being groomed by lawyers in how to feign innocence.

All of the Italian witnesses in the case all got legal advice in the first instance, and we have to ask why middle-class well-connected Raff did not bother.
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Old 30th January 2017, 07:03 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes. It's both amazing and saddening to find pro-guilt commentators still trying to pretend that Mignini's censure was about nothing more than an administrative oversight which had no real-world adverse effects.

The facts of the matter are these: once Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba were arrested and in custody, Mignini cunningly employed a section of the code which is clearly, and explicitly, reserved for extraordinary circumstances - for example, in cases of suspected terrorism or organised crime, where giving arrested suspects access to lawyers might reasonably result in things such as intimidation of witnesses, other obstructions of justice, or even real danger to others - to deny the three detainees any access to legal counsel.

Once Mignini had invoked this section of the code, he was required in law to submit a detailed written application/explanation to the courts, showing the precise grounds upon which he felt it necessary to deny access to counsel. It almost goes without saying that Mignini could not, in fact, have composed such a document in good faith - since in fact there were no extraordinary circumstances at play here, and thus there was no reasonable set of reasons Mignini could have given which would have stood up to any proper scrutiny.

So what did Mignini do? Simples!! He just "forgot" to submit the written document. He instead fell back onto his (probably tried and trusted in front of the tame, compliant judges he knew well) method along the lines of "Oh yes, well my reasons for invoking the "no access to counsel" rule are solid, and I'm sure the document is here somewhere, or I've got someone else to draw it up .... anyway, don't worry about it, take my word for it, my reasons are sound and the required documentation will turn up sooner or later....".

Of course Matteini should have excoriated Mignini in that very first arraignment hearing, and should then have adjourned the whole case until either a) Mignini was able to produce the required documentation, which Matteini would then have had to read and judge whether Mignini's reasoning was acceptable, or b) Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba were able to have full consultations with their lawyers. But Matteini (as Mignini very probably knew all too well) seemingly just rolled over compliantly and let Mignini have his way.
Nothing 'cunningly' about this. A responsible reaction by a prosecutor acutely conscious of public safety.
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Old 30th January 2017, 07:17 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'm another who assumed Knox and Sollecito were guilty from reading the media reports from 2008. How could they not be when they had Kercher's DNA on the murder weapon and Sollecito's DNA on her bra? Add Sollecito's bloody footprint on the mat, Knox's and Kercher's blood mixed in the bathroom, a bleach clean-up with Knox having been at the local store on Nov 2 with a bleach receipt as proof, and it was a no-brainer. Until, of course, I started finding out more of the facts. Those facts led me to change my mind. Sadly, some people simply cannot admit they were wrong and cling to their first opinion of guilt despite new information. Their egos simply do not allow for them to have been duped.
I am the exact opposite. I followed the case from the start. I was amazed that a woman was alleged to be involved and like bagels, when Rudy was pictured arrested in Germany and returning to Italy looking dishevelled, and described as a petty crook, I assumed, now they have caught the real killer.

As I looked further and further into the evidence with a feeling of disbelief, I am afraid it became more and more clear Amanda and Raff were not at all innocent. It was obvious to me that Nathaniel Rich's ROLLING STONE article was a romantic crock of **** (no surprise to discover he got all his facts from Amanda's girlfriend Madison Paxton, who herself wrote reams about the 53 hours of interrogation, so we can see where that lie emanated).

Amanda's ridiculous act in court hamming it up about the 'mask of an assassin' underlined my growing suspicion that she was completely bat **** crazy personality-disordered.


I have searched and searched in vain for any indication of the pair's innocence and have had no luck so far.

IMV the pair had a fair even-handed trial and that Massei and Nencini came to the correct 'Guilty' verdict beyond reasonable doubt, based solely on the evidence presented before the court.

The myriad of lies from the kids and their supporters are exactly the lies you would expect from a guilty person. They predictably include:

- blame someone else
- no alibi
- claim police brutality
-claim false memory syndrome
- claim the DNA is faked (cf Avery claiming the police used an old vial of his blood to plant his DNA in Theresa Halbach's car)
- claim the police/prosecutors made a mistake but are unable to admit it
- start innocence PR campaigns.
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Old 30th January 2017, 07:32 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All of the Italian witnesses in the case all got legal advice in the first instance, and we have to ask why middle-class well-connected Raff did not bother.
Why do we have to ask this? Why is it incriminating that Raffaele "did not bother"?

Why not answer these questions yourself rather than simply ask guilt-sounding questions and let it hang there?
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Old 30th January 2017, 07:34 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's an indication of character. If someone springs you from jail, be they rich man, poor man, beggar man or thief, shouldn't you have the good grace to say, 'Thank you!'...?
The use of the word tends to compromise any claim of objectivity.
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Old 30th January 2017, 07:38 AM   #135
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Boninsegna's MR in the verdict of the criminal calunnia case against Knox includes a clear statement that the rights of defense were violated during the Nov. 5/6 interrogation. The ECHR in its Communication to Italy specifically asked if that case had been appealed. It has not been; no prosecutor has appealed the acquittal of Knox by the Boninsegna court. This indicates that the Italian judiciary now accepts the conclusion that Knox's rights were violated during the interrogation. Thus, the Boninsegna MR will be the last judicial word on the case that the ECHR reviews, all other communication to Italy (as for any other respondent State) will now be with the Ministries (the executive branch in the parliamentary system).

Here's an important paragraph from Boninsegna:

In this specific case, all the described principles would certainly have been compromised overall by investigators and auxiliary personnel who had let themselves loose with extemporary and misguided displays of emotionality. As such, said behaviour is uncontrollable and ambiguous, in itself a product, and at the same time a source, of arbitrary, and hence discriminatory, decisions in the management of the situation, which are incompatible with the principles of equality and equal human dignity. Therefore said behaviour also leads unavoidably to a violation of the right of defense and it stands out as a sheer, but sterile - as it in the end was exposed to be - pursuit of a public interest, thought to be - debatably, as said above - dominant: the prosecution of the crime at any cost, considered at that time a goal preeminent above any other. [hilite]The outcome being the ultimate neglect of the principle expressed by the so called presumption of innocence[/HILITE].

Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/
Link to PDF "Boninsegna Report"

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Old 30th January 2017, 07:58 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I was referring to your use of logical fallacy. Your saying, 'Meredith sent a kiss to Amanda in a text on the day of Halloween, therefore it is possible Amanda hugged Mez in the interim to leave a trace of Mez' DNA on Raff's kitchen knife', is really no different from the logic, 'If my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt'.
I don't believe for one second that Mez's DNA was EVER on that knife. I believe that Stefanoni is a world class screw up. And you just changed your moronic analogy. It too is false.
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Old 30th January 2017, 08:09 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The use of the word tends to compromise any claim of objectivity.
Perhaps you can advise the correct word.
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Old 30th January 2017, 08:29 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nothing 'cunningly' about this. A responsible reaction by a prosecutor acutely conscious of public safety.
While Patrick was a foreign immigrant, he seemed to be able to contain his killer impulses for a sufficiently impressive amount of time while running that bar and building a life as an important member of the Perugian community.

I think Mignini misjudged!
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Old 30th January 2017, 08:42 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't believe for one second that Mez's DNA was EVER on that knife. I believe that Stefanoni is a world class screw up. And you just changed your moronic analogy. It too is false.
Same reasoning.
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Old 30th January 2017, 08:58 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Perhaps you can advise the correct word.
Ok, I will.

Drop the claim to "objectivity", and substitute, "confirmation biased", in much the same way you described the suspect-centred way that police should behave.
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Old 30th January 2017, 09:00 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Same reasoning.
I know. Neither analogy works. That a consensus of world class Forensic scientists are also skeptical of Stefanoni's work says a lot.
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Old 30th January 2017, 09:04 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK fair enough. I would say, that as this was a crime considered by the police of having been committed in concert with several, and owing to the barbaric and sadistic nature of the crime, there was every possibility that the perps might seek out other victims, on a serial murder spree, then I can see the rationale of putting them under observation, as it were, without being groomed by lawyers in how to feign innocence.

All of the Italian witnesses in the case all got legal advice in the first instance, and we have to ask why middle-class well-connected Raff did not bother.

This is a total and utter load of crap (not to mention utterly devoid of reason or legal justification). Disgraceful.
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Old 30th January 2017, 09:05 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nothing 'cunningly' about this. A responsible reaction by a prosecutor acutely conscious of public safety.

Pray tell us all, Vixen, how "public safety" might have been compromised by allowing Knox, Sollecito or Lumumba to consult lawyers while in custody.

This should be amusing.
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Old 30th January 2017, 09:35 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Pray tell us all, Vixen, how "public safety" might have been compromised by allowing Knox, Sollecito or Lumumba to consult lawyers while in custody.

This should be amusing.
You may wish to add how not taping/transcribing the interrogations is beneficial to publuc safety? I would imagine that a Public Minister who is sanctioned for these things is by definition a danger to public safety.

He, apparently, has the power to literally drag any random person off the street, and subject that person to a decade of legal costs and suspicion, ending up in a multi-year internet PR campaign to vilify them.
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Old 30th January 2017, 09:44 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
You may wish to add how not tapig/transcribing the interrogations is beneficial to publuc safety? I would imagine that a Public Minister who is sanctioned for these things is by definition a danger to public safety.

He, apparently, has the power to literally drag any random person off the street, and subject that person to a decade of legal costs and suspicion, ending up in a multi-year internet PR campaign to vilify them.
Imagine how much stronger the PGP position would be if they had an interrogation tape to catch AK in a single provable 100% outright lie, which they have never been able to do in the history of this case.

There would be so many opportunities. AK testified she claims she did not remember hearing a scream, and the scream is mentioned in the signed statement because the police insisted she must have heard it and she helplessly rationalized "maybe I had my ears covered while she screamed."

A tape of Amanda calmly saying "I remember hearing her scream, she screamed so loud, I had to cover my ears" juxtaposed to that testimony, well, let's just say Marriott would really have to earn those millions.

But the Italian authorities made sure if there was a tape, it never saw the light of day. It really makes you think...well, unless you're PGP.
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Old 30th January 2017, 09:51 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Pray tell us all, Vixen, how "public safety" might have been compromised by allowing Knox, Sollecito or Lumumba to consult lawyers while in custody.

This should be amusing.
Train wrecks usually are....



well unless you're in them
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Old 30th January 2017, 10:05 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am the exact opposite. I followed the case from the start. I was amazed that a woman was alleged to be involved and like bagels, when Rudy was pictured arrested in Germany and returning to Italy looking dishevelled, and described as a petty crook, I assumed, now they have caught the real killer.

As I looked further and further into the evidence with a feeling of disbelief, I am afraid it became more and more clear Amanda and Raff were not at all innocent. It was obvious to me that Nathaniel Rich's ROLLING STONE article was a romantic crock of **** (no surprise to discover he got all his facts from Amanda's girlfriend Madison Paxton, who herself wrote reams about the 53 hours of interrogation, so we can see where that lie emanated).

Amanda's ridiculous act in court hamming it up about the 'mask of an assassin' underlined my growing suspicion that she was completely bat **** crazy personality-disordered.


I have searched and searched in vain for any indication of the pair's innocence and have had no luck so far.

IMV the pair had a fair even-handed trial and that Massei and Nencini came to the correct 'Guilty' verdict beyond reasonable doubt, based solely on the evidence presented before the court.

The myriad of lies from the kids and their supporters are exactly the lies you would expect from a guilty person. They predictably include:

- blame someone else
- no alibi
- claim police brutality
-claim false memory syndrome
- claim the DNA is faked (cf Avery claiming the police used an old vial of his blood to plant his DNA in Theresa Halbach's car)
- claim the police/prosecutors made a mistake but are unable to admit it
- start innocence PR campaigns.
As Vixen again attacks Amand and Raffaele for lying, I thought I would give Vixen a reminder of the track record of the PGP when it comes to lying and supporting the lies of others detailed in my posts below. It should be made clear that PGP don’t have an issue with lying but how lies are used. Lying is only a problem for the PGP when they benefit Amanda and Raffaele but as can be seen from the posts PGP regard lying as acceptable when it is used against Amanda and Raffaele which means PGP display staggering hypocrisy when they attack Amanda, Raffaele and others for lying. In my posts I have given examples where PGP have lied on this forum. The fact that PGP posters on this forum can't argue their case without resorting to lying indicates there was no case against Amand and Raffaele. I have asked PGP to explain their hypocrisy in attacking Amanda and Raffaele for lying whilst lying themselves and supporting the lies of other. The silence has been deafening.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post11430102

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post11427461

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post11333243
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Old 30th January 2017, 10:15 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
As Vixen again attacks Amand and Raffaele for lying, I thought I would give Vixen a reminder of the track record of the PGP when it comes to lying and supporting the lies of others detailed in my posts below. It should be made clear that PGP don’t have an issue with lying but how lies are used. Lying is only a problem for the PGP when they benefit Amanda and Raffaele but as can be seen from the posts PGP regard lying as acceptable when it is used against Amanda and Raffaele which means PGP display staggering hypocrisy when they attack Amanda, Raffaele and others for lying. In my posts I have given examples where PGP have lied on this forum. The fact that PGP posters on this forum can't argue their case without resorting to lying indicates there was no case against Amand and Raffaele. I have asked PGP to explain their hypocrisy in attacking Amanda and Raffaele for lying whilst lying themselves and supporting the lies of other. The silence has been deafening.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post11430102

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post11427461

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post11333243
Funny how that works.
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:02 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Funny how that works.
Maybe I need to go one more time around my own merry-go-round.

Early on with private PMs with many many guilters, we were quite civil with one another out of the glare of a public thread.

Some were not even hardened guilters, one openly admitted that they had no opinion on the case, just had posted guilt-posts to fit in on the guilt sites.

But for others, their reasons for guilt always reduced to, "all the lies Amanda told." Like happens on this thread, when specifics were requested, specific lies with citations, even that reduced to the ineviable, "lie about Lumumba". Strangely yet another (well known) guilter even admitted that without a transcript or video of the interrogation that even that was not 100%, "but I hate her anyway."

Fortunately for all of us I found Harry Rag's own list, ten lies that were told. I have the list, and added three more claimed back then by a now closed anonymous website unconnected to the main guilter ones.

I can post the list if anyone wants. Of note is that nearly all the lies were allegedly Raffaele's - anyone here could probably recreate them. They were all, in my opinion, "lies" if one first assumed their guilt.

Which is the essence of circular reasoning. Guilt assumed, therefore those statements are lies. And they are guilty because, "O look at all the lies they told."

The exception once again is the "lie about Lumumba". IMO it is therefore no accident that the conviction for lying about Lumumba is one of the last things to be in question, albeit now outside of Italy with the ECHR.
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:11 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
Imagine how much stronger the PGP position would be if they had an interrogation tape to catch AK in a single provable 100% outright lie, which they have never been able to do in the history of this case.

There would be so many opportunities. AK testified she claims she did not remember hearing a scream, and the scream is mentioned in the signed statement because the police insisted she must have heard it and she helplessly rationalized "maybe I had my ears covered while she screamed."

A tape of Amanda calmly saying "I remember hearing her scream, she screamed so loud, I had to cover my ears" juxtaposed to that testimony, well, let's just say Marriott would really have to earn those millions.

But the Italian authorities made sure if there was a tape, it never saw the light of day. It really makes you think...well, unless you're PGP.

If you walk into a police station and report a crime, you will not be taped. No doubt police will ask you to sign your statement. Again, no need for a lawyer. As a free citizen it is your onus as to whether you wish to take legal advice first, or not.

What is this a nanny state...?

Man walks into police station, covered in blood and dishevelled.

MAN: I just want to report a serial murd-

DESK OFFICER: Stop, sir, stop!

MAN: But I want to give myself in -

DESK OFFICER <fx face palms> No, no, no, sir! You don't understand. Are you reporting a crime or are you confessing to one?

MAN: Both, you see, I just ki-

DESK OFFICER <fx grips head in hand> Wait, sir, wait - whatever you do do NOT tell me anything until I have got a top class lawyer for you.

MAN: Well, if you let me get away, I promise you I'll do it agai -

DESK OFFICER <sfx screams> I didn't hear you, sir. I would advise you to find a top class lawyer and don't come back until you do.


Several days and murders later, man returns with top barrister famous for getting the mafia off.

MAN: I didn't come in here t'other day and I didn't say anything or see anything. You can't prove it!

BONGIORNO (for it is she): My client wishes to say nothing. You have no recording so you have no case. Bye now.


Great. So now bagels is happy.
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Last edited by Vixen; 30th January 2017 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:13 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Train wrecks usually are....



well unless you're in them
Even your beloved Marasca made the observation the crime was more the MO of a serial killer than a burglar.
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:17 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Maybe I need to go one more time around my own merry-go-round.

Early on with private PMs with many many guilters, we were quite civil with one another out of the glare of a public thread.

Some were not even hardened guilters, one openly admitted that they had no opinion on the case, just had posted guilt-posts to fit in on the guilt sites.

But for others, their reasons for guilt always reduced to, "all the lies Amanda told." Like happens on this thread, when specifics were requested, specific lies with citations, even that reduced to the ineviable, "lie about Lumumba". Strangely yet another (well known) guilter even admitted that without a transcript or video of the interrogation that even that was not 100%, "but I hate her anyway."

Fortunately for all of us I found Harry Rag's own list, ten lies that were told. I have the list, and added three more claimed back then by a now closed anonymous website unconnected to the main guilter ones.

I can post the list if anyone wants. Of note is that nearly all the lies were allegedly Raffaele's - anyone here could probably recreate them. They were all, in my opinion, "lies" if one first assumed their guilt.

Which is the essence of circular reasoning. Guilt assumed, therefore those statements are lies. And they are guilty because, "O look at all the lies they told."

The exception once again is the "lie about Lumumba". IMO it is therefore no accident that the conviction for lying about Lumumba is one of the last things to be in question, albeit now outside of Italy with the ECHR.
In England & Wales a court is allowed to make an unfavourable inference if you lie under oath.
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:23 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
As Vixen again attacks Amand and Raffaele for lying, I thought I would give Vixen a reminder of the track record of the PGP when it comes to lying and supporting the lies of others detailed in my posts below. It should be made clear that PGP don’t have an issue with lying but how lies are used. Lying is only a problem for the PGP when they benefit Amanda and Raffaele but as can be seen from the posts PGP regard lying as acceptable when it is used against Amanda and Raffaele which means PGP display staggering hypocrisy when they attack Amanda, Raffaele and others for lying. In my posts I have given examples where PGP have lied on this forum. The fact that PGP posters on this forum can't argue their case without resorting to lying indicates there was no case against Amand and Raffaele. I have asked PGP to explain their hypocrisy in attacking Amanda and Raffaele for lying whilst lying themselves and supporting the lies of other. The silence has been deafening.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post11430102

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post11427461

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post11333243

The PGP are not under suspicion of having committed rape, murder and theft.
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:26 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
In England & Wales a court is allowed to make an unfavourable inference if you lie under oath.
LOL!

Sigh. Did anyone ever point out in this thread that this debacle happened in Italy?

Did anyone ever point out that in Italy the accused is not even sworn before giving testimony? It's because they're expected to lie, or so it seems!

But this is Italy! Can we at least agree on that if we're going to maintain our objectivity?
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:28 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The PGP are not under suspicion of having committed rape, murder and theft.
They are however under the suspicion of lying.
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:30 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you walk into a police station and report a crime, you will not be taped. No doubt police will ask you to sign your statement. Again, no need for a lawyer. As a free citizen it is your onus as to whether you wish to take legal advice first, or not.

What is this a nanny state...?

Man walks into police station, covered in blood and dishevelled.

MAN: I just want to report a serial murd-

DESK OFFICER: Stop, sir, stop!

MAN: But I want to give myself in -

DESK OFFICER <fx face palms> No, no, no, sir! You don't understand. Are you reporting a crime or are you confessing to one?

MAN: Both, you see, I just ki-

DESK OFFICER <fx grips head in hand> Wait, sir, wait - whatever you do do NOT tell me anything until I have got a top class lawyer for you.

MAN: Well, if you let me get away, I promise you I'll do it agai -

DESK OFFICER <sfx screams> I didn't hear you, sir. I would advise you to find a top class lawyer and don't come back until you do.


Several days and murders later, man returns with top barrister famous for getting the mafia off.

MAN: I didn't come in here t'other day and I didn't say anything or see anything. You can't prove it!

BONGIORNO (for it is she): My client wishes to say nothing. You have no recording so you have no case. Bye now.


Great. So now bagels is happy.
Except your scenario NEVER HAPPENED. Funny how that works.
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:38 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Even your beloved Marasca made the observation the crime was more the MO of a serial killer than a burglar.
I'm pretty sure that I have discussed in great detail that burglary in fact is the gateway crime for serial killers. That the FBI has a term for it. It is known as "sexual burglary". What are some of the common traits for sexual burglaries? Number 1 is that the perpetrators spend much more time in their victims homes or businesses than is needed. What seems to be common about the break-ins that Rudy is suspected of? He spent time there.

Hoisted on your own petard.
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:45 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
They are however under the suspicion of lying.
You obtusely refuse to understand the difference between expressing an opinion, making a mistake, disagreeing with you or Welshman and lying.

It is playgound logic: "You've accused Amanda and Raff of rape and murder, therefore we're going to accuse YOU of rape and murder, ner, ner, ner,-ner,-ner. Yah boo shucks to you!"

Here in England, it is considered extremely rude and vulgar to call someone a liar within the course of a gentlemanly debate, just because they take a different view from you.
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:47 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Except your scenario NEVER HAPPENED. Funny how that works.
No, of course it didn't. It is an 'artist's illustration' of how bagels and LoJo imagine it should be.
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Old 30th January 2017, 11:57 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you walk into a police station and report a crime, you will not be taped. No doubt police will ask you to sign your statement. Again, no need for a lawyer. As a free citizen it is your onus as to whether you wish to take legal advice first, or not.

What is this a nanny state...?

Man walks into police station, covered in blood and dishevelled.

MAN: I just want to report a serial murd-

DESK OFFICER: Stop, sir, stop!

MAN: But I want to give myself in -

DESK OFFICER <fx face palms> No, no, no, sir! You don't understand. Are you reporting a crime or are you confessing to one?

MAN: Both, you see, I just ki-

DESK OFFICER <fx grips head in hand> Wait, sir, wait - whatever you do do NOT tell me anything until I have got a top class lawyer for you.

MAN: Well, if you let me get away, I promise you I'll do it agai -

DESK OFFICER <sfx screams> I didn't hear you, sir. I would advise you to find a top class lawyer and don't come back until you do.


Several days and murders later, man returns with top barrister famous for getting the mafia off.

MAN: I didn't come in here t'other day and I didn't say anything or see anything. You can't prove it!

BONGIORNO (for it is she): My client wishes to say nothing. You have no recording so you have no case. Bye now.


Great. So now bagels is happy.
If your name is Amanda Knox and you talk on the phone after November 2nd 2007, the police are listening.

If you make quiet conversation in a lobby waiting area, the police are listening through hidden microphones - recorded and translated.

If you go into the bar where you work, the police are listening through the hidden wiretaps.

Then suddenly, you are brought into an interrogation room, purpose built for recording and archiving suspect statements to later be used against them. And all of a sudden the massive police listening apparatus employing dozens and working round the clock, goes deaf. How interesting.

It's also interesting that the PGP are still living in 2009. In 2009 you can defend these kinds of oversights, after all, they weren't needed and from a game theory standpoint, offered no potential benefit, only loss. Amanda was convicted without an interrogation tape. But everything changed in 2011. It should have been a wake up call, all hands on deck. We can't let this happen again. Test the semen stain. Dig up the interrogation tape. Open the knife. Give Rudy a sweetheart deal and have him testify against his alleged accomplices.

But not only do the prosecution not go this route, for more interesting to me, the PGP do not go this route either. I find that particularly fascinating. There are only two possible conclusions, neither flattering.

One is the PGP believe strongly in the soundness of the case, and continue to believe this in spite of overwhelming direct evidence to the contrary. The case didn't win, it lost. It continued to lose. The vast majority of esteemed outside commentators were not convinced the case was sound enough to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Ignoring this copious tangible refutation of the soundness of the case speaks very ill of the PGP's ability to think rationally.

The other option is perhaps even more intriguing. The PGP's refusal to accept or promote any further digging into the depths of this case, and uncover those hidden secrets, is not based in ignorance, but in fear. Maybe some part of you doesn't want to know what would be on that tape? Or what would be in that semen sample? Maybe deep down, some part of you already knows? It's an interesting idea. Maybe one day one of you will come around and give some insight.

Last edited by bagels; 30th January 2017 at 12:02 PM.
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