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Old 7th February 2017, 02:08 PM   #1
acbytesla
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How did we decide that God was good and Satan is bad?

Since we are talking about morality and whether it is objective, I want to pose what I view is more interesting question. How did you decide that God was moral and good and Satan is immoral and bad?

Theists always ask me if we don't get our morals from the bible etc where do they come from? I think this is absurd because even the most devout pick and choose the rules from they follow. They may come up with a convoluted and always convenient explanations but they determine what is right and wrong, not their book.

Virtually no one today believes that owning people as property is morally right or that we should stone someone for working on the Sabbath or taking the Lord's name in vain. So they made the determination what is right and wrong and not their book. About the only thing the bible got right was the golden rule which can be found in most other religions including those that predate religion.

Which brings me to my question. How did we determine that God was good and moral and Satan was evil and immoral? I would like to suggest it very well may be the other way around.

God is petty and jealous. He toys with man and is violent and genocidal. Greatest description of God from my perspective is Pacino's description in The Devil's Advocate. Is it really moral to ask man to praise him simply because he may have created us? Theists, no Christians have suggested to me that God has the right to punish us if he wants because he is the creator. That is classic might makes right which in my view is intrinsically immoral.

About the only thing I see Satan does is try to get man to open his eyes and think for himself.

What do you think?
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Old 7th February 2017, 02:51 PM   #2
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Look up the term "demiurge," it's a fascinating bit of alternative theology.
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Old 7th February 2017, 03:06 PM   #3
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Satan is a Christian concept, not something that you or I would believe in. Asking how moral he is is a bit like asking how much kryptonite would be required to stop Superman.

Yes. I know, you are hoping to attract responses from theists, it would make for a more interesting thread.
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Old 7th February 2017, 03:20 PM   #4
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This has been one of my major theological questions as well. Ay objective analysis even of the bible (written as inspired by God!) suggest Satan is the better entity. Plus one must consider that the stories are supposedly God's own point of view (i.e. propaganda). Frankly we only have God's word that he is good and that Satan is even, whereas "the facts" combined with our own innate sense of fairness suggest otherwise. In addition to this logic, we have the intriguing threat by God of eternal punishment if we even begin to question God's perspective. Sounds much more like the propaganda of an evil dictator than a true narrative of good versus evil.
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Old 7th February 2017, 03:28 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Satan is a Christian concept, not something that you or I would believe in. Asking how moral he is is a bit like asking how much kryptonite would be required to stop Superman.

Yes. I know, you are hoping to attract responses from theists, it would make for a more interesting thread.
It's not something I believe in. I don't believe in God. Nevertheless I was brought up in the Christian church. And while the devil is portrayed as evil and immoral, when you read most passages that refer to him he certainly doesn't seem all that evil. OTOH, there doesn't seem anything redeemable about the character God.

We are taught that God is loving but why would anyone think that? Did these people read the same book I did? God slaughters people left and right from the Caananites to the Amalkites to all of humanity. Did they read the stories of Abraham and Isaac or Ezekial or Job? The New Testament isn't any better with an infinite penalty for finite crime. If God exists and he really wanted me to believe in him, he sure didn't offer any convincing proof. And seriously what's with thinking that torture for eternity is OK?

Yes, I'd love it if theists actually responded. Are there any out there?
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Old 7th February 2017, 03:29 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
This has been one of my major theological questions as well. Ay objective analysis even of the bible (written as inspired by God!) suggest Satan is the better entity. Plus one must consider that the stories are supposedly God's own point of view (i.e. propaganda). Frankly we only have God's word that he is good and that Satan is even, whereas "the facts" combined with our own innate sense of fairness suggest otherwise. In addition to this logic, we have the intriguing threat by God of eternal punishment if we even begin to question God's perspective. Sounds much more like the propaganda of an evil dictator than a true narrative of good versus evil.
Precisely.
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Old 7th February 2017, 03:41 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
This has been one of my major theological questions as well. Ay objective analysis even of the bible (written as inspired by God!) suggest Satan is the better entity. Plus one must consider that the stories are supposedly God's own point of view (i.e. propaganda). Frankly we only have God's word that he is good and that Satan is even, whereas "the facts" combined with our own innate sense of fairness suggest otherwise. In addition to this logic, we have the intriguing threat by God of eternal punishment if we even begin to question God's perspective. Sounds much more like the propaganda of an evil dictator than a true narrative of good versus evil.
That is precisely what Satan would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity is the height of creation, when in fact it does not take long to see that is in fact not true, and that Satan, the slanderer, the accuser, the trickster, the fallen angel has beguiled so many by appealing to their egos and through false flattery.

"Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places . . . Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, having on the breastplate of justice, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; in all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one" (Ephesians 6:11, 16).
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Old 7th February 2017, 03:57 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is precisely what Satan would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity is the height of creation, when in fact it does not take long to see that is in fact not true, and that Satan, the slanderer, the accuser, the trickster, the fallen angel has beguiled so many by appealing to their egos and through false flattery.
funny how satan works through the anointed word of god. Maybe god should just hire better ghost writers next time so the story isn't so ambiguous.
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:05 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is precisely what Satan would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity is the height of creation...

Um, Genesis 1:26?
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:09 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is precisely what Satan would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity is the height of creation, when in fact it does not take long to see that is in fact not true, and that Satan, the slanderer, the accuser, the trickster, the fallen angel has beguiled so many by appealing to their egos and through false flattery.

"Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places . . . Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, having on the breastplate of justice, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; in all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one" (Ephesians 6:11, 16).
And this exactly the response you would expect of someone who doesn't want you to question authority.

But I pose the question again to you Big Dog. What made YOU decide that God was good and Satan is bad? All you're doing is repeating from God's book. Which is what the dictator would want you to do.

Out of curiosity,
Was it moral for God to tell Abraham to kill his own son and then at the last moment say no? Was it moral for God to kill everyone but Noah on the earth? Was it moral for God to tell the Israelites that the should go and kill everyone in the next town and rape the women?

The devil didn't lie to Adam and Eve. God did. God said if you eat from the fruit of the tree, thou shall surely die. Whereas the devil/serpent says you won't die but your eyes will be open. They didn't die and there eyes were open.

God absolutely doesn't sound good or moral to me.
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:09 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
funny how satan works through the anointed word of god. Maybe god should just hire better ghost writers next time so the story isn't so ambiguous.
Ambiguous? I hear people claiming that satan ain't such a bad guy, yet there is, of course, no support for that claim from the Bible, while the actual Bible says:

"By the envy of the Devil, death came into the world" (Wisdom 2:24).

God's writers did just fine:

Quote:
Fierce war broke out in heaven, where Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought on their part, 8 but could not win the day, or stand their ground in heaven any longer; 9 the great dragon, serpent of the primal age, was flung down to earth; he whom we call the devil, or Satan, the whole world’s seducer, flung down to earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a voice crying aloud in heaven, The time has come; now we are saved and made strong, our God reigns, and power belongs to Christ, his anointed.
hallelujah! hallelujah!

(Revelations Chapter 12 versus 7-10)
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:11 PM   #12
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Nothing all that new here. Of course the Gnostics had variois talkes on the issue, but I also urge Acybestia and any others seeking entertaining speculation on this question to find and read Anatole France's novel Revolt of the Angels. I think you can find it in PDF form on the web.

There may be a reason why that guy got a Nobel prize.
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:12 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Um, Genesis 1:26?
Allow me to retort: Genesis Chapter 3
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:17 PM   #14
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Yeah, if we're digging into revelations we all need to come back less sober at some appointed time.
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:20 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yeah, if we're digging into revelations we all need to come back less sober at some appointed time.
How about 6:66 pm?
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:33 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is precisely what Satan would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity is the height of creation, when in fact it does not take long to see that is in fact not true, and that Satan, the slanderer, the accuser, the trickster, the fallen angel has beguiled so many by appealing to their egos and through false flattery.

"Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places . . . Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, having on the breastplate of justice, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; in all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one" (Ephesians 6:11, 16).
I was wondering if you would post in this thread. So I would start by asking you one question. Who was it who originated the section I highlighted in your own post and originally vouched for its "truth" ?

Last edited by Giordano; 7th February 2017 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Lst paragraph edited to clarify my question
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:33 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is precisely what Satan would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity is the height of creation, when in fact it does not take long to see that is in fact not true, and that Satan, the slanderer, the accuser, the trickster, the fallen angel has beguiled so many by appealing to their egos and through false flattery.

"Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places . . . Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, having on the breastplate of justice, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; in all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one" (Ephesians 6:11, 16).

Well now I don't think anyone said that The Big Dog.

For a believer in evolution it would be a rather silly idea wouldn't it? We were not created at all and there is no such thing as a "height of creation". It is all still work in progress, (the term work is used rather loosely here), and I would hope mankind will just get better and better.
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ambiguous? I hear people claiming that satan ain't such a bad guy, yet there is, of course, no support for that claim from the Bible, while the actual Bible says:

"By the envy of the Devil, death came into the world" (Wisdom 2:24).

God's writers did just fine:



hallelujah! hallelujah!

(Revelations Chapter 12 versus 7-10)
Using the bible to prove god to prove the bible to prove god... I think you are putting us on because you are too intelligent to intend to advance this as an argument that anyone, let along you, would actually accept.

I also add that what many people ignorantly see as the detailed characteristics of Satan are not in the bible at all, but that many instead represent subsequent literary flights of fantasy (such as by Dante), mistranslations, and confusions of Satan with other entities in the bible itself. Satan means the adversary, and certainly is not presented in a good light in the OT or NT, but the much of the common mythology as to the devil are gross extrapolations of the actual biblical references.

Last edited by Giordano; 7th February 2017 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:36 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ambiguous? I hear people claiming that satan ain't such a bad guy, yet there is, of course, no support for that claim from the Bible, while the actual Bible says:

"By the envy of the Devil, death came into the world" (Wisdom 2:24).

God's writers did just fine:



hallelujah! hallelujah!

(Revelations Chapter 12 versus 7-10)
Yet God is the one killing just about everyone throughout the book so what makes that line convincing? It is God committing and ordering Genocide. It is God promising eternal torture just for not believing in him. God is supposedly making all the rules and what are the rules he makes? 3 of the first 10 at the penalty of death are commanding servility. Do you think that is moral?
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:38 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I was wondering if you would post in this thread. So I would start by asking you one question. Who was it who told you the "truth" of the section I highlighted in your own post?
No one

Now, perhaps the better question is ask yourself who suggested that question to you?

Quote:
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
John 8:44
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:42 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Using the bible to prove god to prove the bible to prove god... I think you are putting us on because you are too intelligent to intend to advance this as an argument that anyone, let along you, would actually accept.
what an odd question.

did you see not the title, did you see not the posts suggesting that God's Own Scriptures have made the Great Accuser, the Deceiver, the Father of Lies is the "better entity"??

Of course you did, you wrote one of them!

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10:

Quote:
that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
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Old 7th February 2017, 04:57 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is precisely what Satan would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity is the height of creation, when in fact it does not take long to see that is in fact not true, and that Satan, the slanderer, the accuser, the trickster, the fallen angel has beguiled so many by appealing to their egos and through false flattery.
I see it this way:
That is precisely what Satan God would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity God is the height of creation morality, when in fact it does not take long to see that is in fact not true, and that Satan, the slanderer, the accuser, the trickster, the fallen angel has beguiled so many by appealing to their egos and through false flattery God the hot head, the tormentor, the egotistical short tempered being willing to kill millions of innocents because a few of his own creations violated (as he always knew they would given his omniscience) his own self-created rules, has told you that he is the source and definition of good. A being who both invented original sin and yet despite his omnipotence could not figure out a way of forgiving it with without raping a young girl and torturing and killing his own son

Last edited by Giordano; 7th February 2017 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 7th February 2017, 05:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
what an odd question.

did you see not the title, did you see not the posts suggesting that God's Own Scriptures have made the Great Accuser, the Deceiver, the Father of Lies is the "better entity"??

Of course you did, you wrote one of them!

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10:
Look at the title of the OP again- on my screen it does not mention scriptures at all. Does it state differently on your screen. And am I limited to commenting only on what other posters have presented?

Further look at my own actual post- it states quite clearly that there is no real evidence that God is good and that Satan is evil (in fact requesting evidence that they actually exist would be reasonable but I did not wish to derail this thread). Then I noted that even "God's" own alleged propaganda in the bible often shows him in a bad light compared to how it presents Satan. Certainly we all agree that the bible tries to present God as good and Satan as evil. Quoting the bible passages that state as much is not advancing the argument any- the point is that even if one accepts the bible there is much evidence in the propaganda that itself contradicts God as being good.

Using the bible to prove the goodness of God is just blindly repeating and buying into the same old propaganda and using it as evidence; using the contradictions in the bible to suggest otherwise is calling into question the veracity of the story, and is not meant as evidence of what God really is. I doubt that anyone presenting these biblical contradictions as arguments against God being good believes that these stories represent truths- only that they are failures in even the fictional story accepted by believers as proof that God is good.
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Old 7th February 2017, 05:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ambiguous? I hear people claiming that satan ain't such a bad guy, yet there is, of course, no support for that claim from the Bible, while the actual Bible says:

"By the envy of the Devil, death came into the world" (Wisdom 2:24).

)
"Look what Satan made me do" - God, the All-Powerful.
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Old 7th February 2017, 05:27 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's not something I believe in. I don't believe in God. Nevertheless I was brought up in the Christian church. And while the devil is portrayed as evil and immoral, when you read most passages that refer to him he certainly doesn't seem all that evil. OTOH, there doesn't seem anything redeemable about the character God.

We are taught that God is loving but why would anyone think that? Did these people read the same book I did? God slaughters people left and right from the Caananites to the Amalkites to all of humanity. Did they read the stories of Abraham and Isaac or Ezekial or Job? The New Testament isn't any better with an infinite penalty for finite crime. If God exists and he really wanted me to believe in him, he sure didn't offer any convincing proof. And seriously what's with thinking that torture for eternity is OK?

Yes, I'd love it if theists actually responded. Are there any out there?
The theists I know just ignore the Old Testament. All that terrible stuff somehow doesn't count.

The rationalization for the eternal torture has always seemed twisted to me. You may avoid the torture, they say, simply by believing what you are told to believe.
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Old 7th February 2017, 05:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No one

Now, perhaps the better question is ask yourself who suggested that question to you?



John 8:44
Highlight- you don't believe that the descriptions of God in the bible and the portrayals of him as good were God-inspired? If not, then how (and from whom) did you learn that God was good and Satan evil?

As to your second paragraph- the same logic and intelligence that I apply to all the rest of my life, and that have served me very well for many decades in separating truth from lies, suggested that question to me. And because I do not believe in God at all, I was able to compose and ask that question without fear of eternal damnation and suffering. If you are suggesting that "the devil made me do it" - I haven't spotted the devil, but we all know from the bible (see my prior paragraph) that he is subtle and tricky. As least so far as the bible views it. But I understand that the writings of Stalin has similar things to say about capitalists (although there is an important difference- Stalin really existed). Who to believe is always an important question, because the bad seek to present themselves as good.

How do you know that the entity who calls himself God, who you believe inspired the bible, and who you believe is telling you the truth even now, is not actually the devil? Perhaps it is the devil who long ago won the battle with God, assumed His name, and now pretends to be good while clearly being the opposite (just look at the state of the world today) and keeps the true source of goodness locked away slurred with the false name of Satan. How would you know? How could you know? What proof is there that the lies of the devil do not extend to the very authorship of the bible, and that the entity that now pretends to be the God of goodness is not, in fact, the evil liar himself? Wouldn't the evil trickster seek to present himself as the good entity?
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Old 7th February 2017, 05:40 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Look at the title of the OP again- on my screen it does not mention scriptures at all. Does it state differently on your screen. And am I limited to commenting only on what other posters have presented?

Further look at my own actual post- it states quite clearly that there is no real evidence that God is good and that Satan is evil (in fact requesting evidence that they actually exist would be reasonable but I did not wish to derail this thread). Then I noted that even "God's" own alleged propaganda in the bible often shows him in a bad light compared to how it presents Satan. Certainly we all agree that the bible tries to present God as good and Satan as evil. Quoting the bible passages that state as much is not advancing the argument any- the point is that even if one accepts the bible there is much evidence in the propaganda that itself contradicts God as being good.

Using the bible to prove the goodness of God is just blindly repeating and buying into the same old propaganda and using it as evidence; using the contradictions in the bible to suggest otherwise is calling into question the veracity of the story, and is not meant as evidence of what God really is. I doubt that anyone presenting these biblical contradictions as arguments against God being good believes that these stories represent truths- only that they are failures in even the fictional story accepted by believers as proof that God is good.
You've nailed the paradox. We're taught through our indoctrination (not really the Scriptures) that God is omni-benevolent. But I assert that anyone who studied the bible would have difficulty believing that God is loving or forgiving. The character of God would not be considered good by any of us. The act that is held up is as a demonstration of God's love is the killing of himself as his son and unlike any other being isn't a permanent condition. And why does God do this? To satisfy rules that he himself made.

Scriptures tell us that anyone or anything that might make us disbelieve or disobey God is trying to trick us and is evil. But who's trying to trick someone? The being that is telling us not to investigate or think for ourselves or the being that tells us to open our eyes and see for ourselves? There are a few negative lines about Satan but that is from God's perspective. Yet what God in the book that he supposedly wrote portrays God as a scary violent thug.
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Old 7th February 2017, 05:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
The theists I know just ignore the Old Testament. All that terrible stuff somehow doesn't count.
I always point out that Jesus never refutes any of the Old Testament. He tells people to follow the commandments. He says he's not here to change a jot or tittle of the law. He doesn't refute slavery. In fact he commands that 'slaves obey their masters'.

Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
The rationalization for the eternal torture has always seemed twisted to me. You may avoid the torture, they say, simply by believing what you are told to believe.
This is New Testament teaching. It's not mentioned in the Old Testament. At least in the Old Testament God killed you once and that was it.
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Old 7th February 2017, 06:08 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Look at the title of the OP again- on my screen it does not mention scriptures at all. Does it state differently on your screen. And am I limited to commenting only on what other posters have presented?

Further look at my own actual post- it states quite clearly that there is no real evidence that God is good and that Satan is evil (in fact requesting evidence that they actually exist would be reasonable but I did not wish to derail this thread). Then I noted that even "God's" own alleged propaganda in the bible often shows him in a bad light compared to how it presents Satan. Certainly we all agree that the bible tries to present God as good and Satan as evil. Quoting the bible passages that state as much is not advancing the argument any- the point is that even if one accepts the bible there is much evidence in the propaganda that itself contradicts God as being good.

Using the bible to prove the goodness of God is just blindly repeating and buying into the same old propaganda and using it as evidence; using the contradictions in the bible to suggest otherwise is calling into question the veracity of the story, and is not meant as evidence of what God really is. I doubt that anyone presenting these biblical contradictions as arguments against God being good believes that these stories represent truths- only that they are failures in even the fictional story accepted by believers as proof that God is good.
That is a lot of words, none of which support your absurd claim that an objective analysis of the Bible (your words, not mine) that show the BEAST is better than the Almighty, particularly when you claim that I cannot rely on the Bible!
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Old 7th February 2017, 06:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Since we are talking about morality and whether it is objective, I want to pose what I view is more interesting question. How did you decide that God was moral and good and Satan is immoral and bad?

Theists always ask me if we don't get our morals from the bible etc where do they come from? I think this is absurd because even the most devout pick and choose the rules from they follow. They may come up with a convoluted and always convenient explanations but they determine what is right and wrong, not their book.

Virtually no one today believes that owning people as property is morally right or that we should stone someone for working on the Sabbath or taking the Lord's name in vain. So they made the determination what is right and wrong and not their book. About the only thing the bible got right was the golden rule which can be found in most other religions including those that predate religion.

Which brings me to my question. How did we determine that God was good and moral and Satan was evil and immoral? I would like to suggest it very well may be the other way around.

God is petty and jealous. He toys with man and is violent and genocidal. Greatest description of God from my perspective is Pacino's description in The Devil's Advocate. Is it really moral to ask man to praise him simply because he may have created us? Theists, no Christians have suggested to me that God has the right to punish us if he wants because he is the creator. That is classic might makes right which in my view is intrinsically immoral.

About the only thing I see Satan does is try to get man to open his eyes and think for himself.

What do you think?
All dogmatic creeds need something to blame and promote fear of in order to control the flock.

Theists actually have both God and the Devil to fear. Trump has ISIS and Mexicans and the MSM and so on. It's not really a philosophical thing IMHO, just practical manipulation of humans.
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Old 7th February 2017, 06:37 PM   #31
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Most people who believe the Bible contains truth have been told this by someone. Some have had a religious education and been given Bibles. I think it amazing that The Big Dog found a Bible on his own and figured it out all by himself.

It's too bad for him that religion was already in existence. So much energy reinventing the wheel.
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Old 7th February 2017, 06:43 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Most people who believe the Bible contains truth have been told this by someone. Some have had a religious education and been given Bibles. I think it amazing that The Big Dog found a Bible on his own and figured it out all by himself.

It's too bad for him that religion was already in existence. So much energy reinventing the wheel.
Thanks man, but let's keep on the topic.

Which is the claim that the Bible makes The Beast look good or something.

Talk about the Great Deceiver!
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Old 7th February 2017, 06:52 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks man, but let's keep on the topic.

Which is the claim that the Bible makes The Beast look good or something.

Talk about the Great Deceiver!
Huh? You've made more than a few posts yet you never address the question.

How did you determine that God was good and the devil is bad?
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Old 7th February 2017, 07:08 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Huh? You've made more than a few posts yet you never address the question.

How did you determine that God was good and the devil is bad?
I can read, obviously.

The bible repeatedly shows that the Satan is evil, how can anyone think that the Beast and the Father of Lies is anything other than bad???

Last edited by The Big Dog; 7th February 2017 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 7th February 2017, 07:25 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I can read, obviously.

The bible repeatedly shows that the Satan is evil, how can anyone think that the Beast and the Father of Lies is anything other than bad???

Was Satan made perfect? God made him did he not?
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Old 7th February 2017, 07:26 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I can read, obviously.

The bible repeatedly shows that the Satan is evil, how can anyone think that the Beast and the Father of Lies is anything other than bad???
Thats only half the question. Never mind it is God that is telling you that Satan is lying and calling him the beast.

Given God's genocidal rages and the acts that he endorses and performs throughout the Bible, how did you determine that God was good? And if he's not good, how can you be sure he's not lying about Satan?
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Old 7th February 2017, 07:34 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Thats only half the question. Never mind it is God that is telling you that Satan is lying and calling him the beast.

Given God's genocidal rages and the acts that he endorses and performs throughout the Bible, how did you determine that God was good? And if he's not good, how can you be sure he's not lying about Satan?
Quote:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

Wow that was easy.

Great thread!
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Old 7th February 2017, 07:38 PM   #38
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Quote:
Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls "a murderer from the beginning", who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father. "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil." In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.
Catechism par. 394

Amen!
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:17 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
John 3:16

Wow that was easy.

Great thread!
Don't you find that bizarre? God made all the rules so he doesn't actually need to sacrifice his son does he?

And since Jesus rises in the story God isn't actually sacrificing his son either is he?

Also you don't address God's many atrocities such as the massacre of the Amalkites and the Caananites or turning Lot's wife into salt, letting Jeptha kill his daughter in sacrifice, telling Abraham to slay his son, not to mention theoretically killing almost every living thing on the planet with a global flood. I could list many others, but this will do.

Now again, tell me why God is good?
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Last edited by acbytesla; 7th February 2017 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:19 PM   #40
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The OP has the order backward. First came the religion that claimed there was good and evil, then came the beings that fit the narrative.

Or, could be the order was: 1) God, 2) good is good, 3) evil, 4) the Devil creates the evil.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 7th February 2017 at 08:20 PM.
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