ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 10th February 2017, 12:25 PM   #361
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
My personal take... MY personal take? Well...

WELCOME TO THE THREAD SATAN

because only the great deceiver could come up with such a blatant falsehood.

There is OF COURSE no such doctrine, ex cathedra or otherwise, in the Catholic Church. That hardly even needs being said of course, given that this is a site for "skeptics."
How amusing. Your personal default argument: name-calling. (Not to mention, it is not, in fact, I, who is your "adversary", but reality itself.)

Naetheless, you have a bit of research to do (and it should shame you, as a practicing catholic, to be incorrect about binding doctrine).

Quote:
"The Catechism twice [28, 360] quotes Acts 17:26-28:
“From one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth...” That the Catechism refers to a single person is confirmed in footnote number 226 [360] which cites Tobit 8:6, “Thou madest Adam and gave him Eve his wife as a helper and support. From them the race of mankind has sprung...” Thus, the “one ancestor” could only be Adam. This is confirmed in [359] which quotes St Peter Chrysologus, “St Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ...The first man, Adam,...was made by the last Adam.” The Catechism clearly teaches that polygenism is irreconcilable with Catholic Tradition.
So what is the Catholic doctrine?

The first teaching comes from Leo XIII -- Adam & Eve were our first parents, by direct divine intervention and Eve was created from a portion of Adam’s body (Arcanum Divinć Sapientić of Pope Leo XIII, 1880). Polygenism is thus impossible -- that mankind arose from many first parents – the fairy-tale which is perpetrated today by most evolutionists.

Then from the Pontifical Biblical Commission in its response of 30 June, 1909, On the Historical Character of the First Three Chapters of Genesis, the declaration:
a) that those pseudoscientific exegetical systems elaborated for the purpose of "excluding the literal historical sense of the first three chapters of Genesis" are not based upon solid arguments (EB 324; DS 3512).

So as Fr Harrison rightly points out in Did The Human Body Evolve Naturally? A Forgotten Papal Declaration:
“We are not dealing here with a mere Allocution, a Motu Proprio, a Brief, an Apostolic Exhortation, or a Nuntius, but a fully-fledged piece of pontificating endowed with no less inherent or formal authority than Humani Generis or Providentissimus Deus: the Encyclical Letter Arcanum Divinć Sapientić of Pope Leo XIII on Christian Marriage, dated 10 February 1880."
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=841416

And, for clarification:
Quote:
On the question of Adam and Eve (Kirsty Gibson, May 20, 2005), Rev Dr Brian Harrison writes that "Leo XIII makes clear in Arcanum: it was from an adult, sleeping man (viri . . . dormientis) that her body was formed...." According to Fr Harrison the formation of Eve's body from Adam has been infallibly defined.

This is taken from DID THE HUMAN BODY EVOLVE NATURALLY? A FORGOTTEN PAPAL DECLARATION, by Rev Dr Brian Harrison in the Roman Theological Forum (rtforum.org).

"Leo XIII even adds the word mirabiliter -"marvellously," "wondrously," "in a marvellous manner" - to describe the formation of Eve's body from the side of the sleeping Adam. Indeed, one of the standard meanings of this word in ecclesiastical Latin is "miraculous" - indicating the kind of event which, by definition, transcends the laws of nature.

"She was, according to Leo XIII and the unanimous teaching of all the Popes, Fathers and Doctors before him, formed from the body of a human male having the use of reason.

"What the Pope says explicitly in this passage of the encyclical leaves it clear that he is here bearing witness, as Peter's Successor, to the fact that all of these doctrines have been so constantly and firmly taught by the popes and bishops, throughout the world and throughout the ages up until his own time, that there can be no question of their ever being changed. In other words, he is, in effect, testifying to their being proposed infallibly by the Church according to a mode which was expounded in the following century by Vatican Council II in Lumen Gentium #25: the infallibility of the universal, ordinary Magisterium."
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showme...=&Pgnu=&recnu=

And, to respond to the expected quibble:
Quote:
"...the pope, as successor of St. Peter—the one declared as Rock and given the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven along with the authority of bonding and loosing (Mt 16:13ff)—by virtue of his office as supreme pastor and teacher of the faithful, enjoys the charism of infallibility. Note that the emphasis is on the office of the pope, not on his human person. When the pope teaches infallibly, he is said to speak ex cathedra ("from the chair"), meaning by the authority given to the office of the pope by our Lord."
And, for background:
http://www.imediaethics.org/fake-quo...m-eve-a-fable/

You are welcome...
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

Last edited by Slowvehicle; 10th February 2017 at 12:30 PM.
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 12:30 PM   #362
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,415
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
How amusing. Your personal default argument: name-calling.
Nonsense! That would imply bickering, and he never ever does that. If he did, it'd be hypocritical of him to point it out in others as a way to avoid their points.
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 12:33 PM   #363
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Beady View Post
I grew up as a Wisconsin Synod Evangelical Lutheran, the fundamentalist's fundamentals. That story is "interpreted" thus:

Note that the daughter asked for time to "bewail her virginity." This meant that she was going to be sacrificed, yes, but not via death. Rather, she would never know a man, but would devote herself to God's service.

In essence, she would become a nun. I always thought this was an odd interpretation for a Lutheran to make.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
An interpretation not supported by the actual Hebrew text.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 12:34 PM   #364
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
This has been an interesting thread to read........


^ This.

In the Tanakh ("OT") there is NO devil/Lucifer/fallen angel. And "Satan" is not a name of any entity.

Xians took the idea of a "good god/bad god" from other religions, then changed the "bad god" into "the devil" who fights against the xian god. They then badly mixed it up with the Jewish writings.

(To be clear, I am NOT religious, but I have read the tanakh ("OT") and the xian bible).

*Hi Slowvehicle, nice to 'see' you again!*
'Sup?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 12:42 PM   #365
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 21,718
On the question of Adam and Eve (and nothing else), it appears from what I've read that until recently the Catholic Church maintained that Adam and Eve were real people, and were the sole progenitors of all subsequent mankind, which sort of figures given the doctrine of original sin, though admitting that the manner in which the story is told is simplistic. However, it also seems that the current Pope has referred to them as a legend, and has allowed that they are figurative, and incidentally stated that it's wrong to blame Eve for the fall.

Thus it would appear that TBD's take on Adam and Eve as allegorical is in keeping with current doctrine. It's very easy to find evidence to the contrary, but one must watch out for dates.
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 12:44 PM   #366
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
To return to the OP, and an issue that has not been addressed by those in thrall to their 'god' ideas: To any rational person, the fact that 'god' is said to be said to have slaughtered nations, murdered nearly the entire planet, given his "faithful servant" a divine rogering, and all the other condign canonized hijinks; make it, not any of its "opponents", a working definition of evil.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 12:50 PM   #367
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
How amusing. Your personal default argument: name-calling. (Not to mention, it is not, in fact, I, who is your "adversary", but reality itself.)

Naetheless, you have a bit of research to do (and it should shame you, as a practicing catholic, to be incorrect about binding doctrine).



http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=841416

And, for clarification:


http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showme...=&Pgnu=&recnu=

And, to respond to the expected quibble:


And, for background:
http://www.imediaethics.org/fake-quo...m-eve-a-fable/

You are welcome...
Ordinarily one would assume that someone making the utterly remarkable claim that " the doctrine, pronounced ex cathedra, that Adam and Eve may not be interpreted "metaphorically" by the faithful" would, ya know, link to the actual statement, rather than to two posts on web forums, one of which links to an argument by an almost unheard of Young earth creationist Catholic named Brian Harrison, who I do not recall being named Pope, and whose conclusions are directly adverse to a half a dozen actual Papal encyclicals, including:

Humani generis from an actual Pope Pius XII

Quote:
...the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter
You are actually welcome, although i am impressed that you managed to dig up some forum posts (giggle) to support your obviously false claim.

By the way, i was not actually calling you Satan, just pointing out that Satan appears to be reading the thread.
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.

Last edited by The Big Dog; 10th February 2017 at 12:57 PM.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 12:52 PM   #368
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14,625
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Thanks much for sharing your thoughts.

As for me, I grew up as one of the sons of a Methodist Minister. I have heard it said that children of ministers tend to be non-religious since the children take the issue of religion so very seriously.

That is quite true in my case because even at a young age I was often confused at how people would embrace one section of the Bible that they really liked and felt so very vindicated since what they believed now was written about all those many centuries ago.

While at the same time, they would be entirely dismissive of other parts of the Bible even though they were written down as well.

While at the same time, they would recognize that there were many obvious inaccuracies with the facts presented in the Bible.

And all the while, they loved to say how the Bible was the word of God.

Gee whiz! As the famous writer George Orwell might say, this is an excellent example of triple-think!

As for myself, about the most revealing that I determined in my study of the Bible is that Jesus was Jewish and he never intended to start a new religion. While it is obvious that Jesus did have quite a few problems with the way the Jewish clergy was interacting with their followers, at no point does Jesus actually renounce his Jewish faith or tell his followers to start any sort of new religion.
Your description brings back so many memories both good and bad. I tried for a long time to view the entire book as metaphorical to the point i believed that I we we were all God's children in exactly the same way Jesus was and we were all God as well. I spun the passages and edited it to the point that I was a million miles away from church doctrine. My old pastor would mockingly refer to my approach as a cafeteria Christian.

As for what Jesus intended, I think it is impossible to really know for sure when you consider that the Gospels were written by unknown authors decades after the death of Christ (if he was real) Also many Gospels weren't included. The first Canon which was put together by Marcion didn't include much of the Old Testament. It wasn't even a monotheistic religion. Yahweh was the Jewish God of War and not Jesus's heavenly father who he thought was totally contradictory in spirit.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:03 PM   #369
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
red herring snip
...you should actually be grateful that I gave you the information on your level. I had hoped you might actually read the primary csources mentioned, but you do not seem to have bothered.


...one step at a time:

Do you deny the statement Leo XIII made, or its authority?

(Here it is for you, in English: https://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xi...0_arcanum.html)

Do you deny the statement Pius XII made, or its authority?

(Here it is for you, in English: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi...i-generis.html)

Do you deny the teaching of the Catechism, or its authority?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:14 PM   #370
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
...you should actually be grateful that I gave you the information on your level. I had hoped you might actually read the primary csources mentioned, but you do not seem to have bothered.


...one step at a time:

Do you deny the statement Leo XIII made, or its authority?

(Here it is for you, in English: https://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xi...0_arcanum.html)

Do you deny the statement Pius XII made, or its authority?

(Here it is for you, in English: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi...i-generis.html)

Do you deny the teaching of the Catechism, or its authority?
wait, you just called Humani generis from an actual Pope Pius XII a RED HERRING?

That is amazing!

Lets hear from another Pope!

Quote:
In an October 22, 1996, address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Pope John Paul II updated the Church's position to accept evolution of the human body:

In his encyclical Humani generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points. ... Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory

Now while I thank you for linking two documents (neither of which were issued ex cathedra) neither supports your false claim that:

"the doctrine, pronounced ex cathedra, that Adam and Eve may not be interpreted "metaphorically" by the faithful" In fact your second link explicitly says the opposite!

". For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. "

fantastic.
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:24 PM   #371
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
<red herring snip, part II>
I realize I have no hope of getting you to honestly address the actual issue, but I will repeat it, anyway:P

Do you deny the statement Leo XIII made, or its authority?

(Here it is for you, in English: https://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xi...0_arcanum.html)

Do you deny the statement Pius XII made, or its authority?

(Here it is for you, in English: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi...i-generis.html)

Do you deny the teaching of the Catechism, or its authority?

I would also like to point out that I already addressed your quibble about ex cathedra; fortunately, I expected you to gloss over it.

I am aware that you will not address this, preferring to dodge, and weave, and shuck, and jive, and hope to distract, as is your wont.

At least you can tell yourself that your dissimilation is a bold defense of your superstitions...

Not to mention, you continue to avoid the actual acts said to be said to be committed by your 'god' in your "scriptures'...
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:24 PM   #372
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,966
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
On the question of Adam and Eve (and nothing else), it appears from what I've read that until recently the Catholic Church maintained that Adam and Eve were real people, and were the sole progenitors of all subsequent mankind, which sort of figures given the doctrine of original sin, though admitting that the manner in which the story is told is simplistic. However, it also seems that the current Pope has referred to them as a legend, and has allowed that they are figurative, and incidentally stated that it's wrong to blame Eve for the fall.

Thus it would appear that TBD's take on Adam and Eve as allegorical is in keeping with current doctrine. It's very easy to find evidence to the contrary, but one must watch out for dates.

I have asked this before on other threads and am yet to receive a lucid answer.

If you have the belief that the Adam and Eve story is allegorical then Christianity has to implode. Christianity needs Adam and Eve because they have to have original sin and therefor sinners. Take that away and there is no need for Jesus to come down and do his thing.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:26 PM   #373
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
<snip>
". For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. "

fantastic.
What is "fantastic" is that you are avoiding the actual teachings about Adam being a "real person".

Do you deny the statement Leo XIII made, or its authority?

(Here it is for you, in English: https://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xi...0_arcanum.html)

Do you deny the statement Pius XII made, or its authority?

(Here it is for you, in English: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi...i-generis.html)

Do you deny the teaching of the Catechism, or its authority?

(NB: I realize honesty is not, nor has it ever been, the strongest weapon in defense of faith.)
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:28 PM   #374
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
To return to the OP, and an issue that has not been addressed by those in thrall to their 'god' ideas: To any rational person, the fact that 'god' is said to be said to have slaughtered nations, murdered nearly the entire planet, given his "faithful servant" a divine rogering, and all the other condign canonized hijinks; make it, not any of its "opponents", a working definition of evil.
TBD: you are avoiding this bit...

xoxox

"Satan"
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:31 PM   #375
Beady
Philosopher
 
Beady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 42d 45'23.3"N, 84d 35' 10.8'W, 840'>MSL
Posts: 6,882
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I've heard that apologetic as well but one should note that the Jewish people don't interpret it that way. There is no way that interpretation is accurate as Jeptha promised to sacrifice whatever met him first.
Whatever, it's still the out they use, and I defy you to convince any of them that they're wrong. And screw the Jews; they don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, so their motives in interpretation are automatically suspect.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
__________________
I don't care what you do to the women and children,
leave me alone!
Beady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:36 PM   #376
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
I realize I have no hope of getting you to honestly address the actual issue, but I will repeat it, anyway:P

Do you deny the statement Leo XIII made, or its authority?

(Here it is for you, in English: https://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xi...0_arcanum.html)

Do you deny the statement Pius XII made, or its authority?

(Here it is for you, in English: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi...i-generis.html)

Do you deny the teaching of the Catechism, or its authority?

I would also like to point out that I already addressed your quibble about ex cathedra; fortunately, I expected you to gloss over it.

I am aware that you will not address this, preferring to dodge, and weave, and shuck, and jive, and hope to distract, as is your wont.

At least you can tell yourself that your dissimilation is a bold defense of your superstitions...

Not to mention, you continue to avoid the actual acts said to be said to be committed by your 'god' in your "scriptures'...
I do deny them as authority for your claim, well except the part from Pius that nukes your claim from orbit.

Now, lets get back to the "quibble." You claimed that it was ex cathedra, and now you are walking back that part of the claim by fraudulently claiming that everything a Pope says is 'ex cathedra"! Oh Satan you have been busy!

http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2011/02/...ak-infallibly/
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:45 PM   #377
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 658
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
'Sup?
Oh, still laughing about this imaginary 'Satan' being and wondering who it is.....

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
TBD: you are avoiding this bit...

xoxox

"Satan"
Oh! Now I understand
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:47 PM   #378
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,465
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, it's because God in the bible is a dishonest, megalomaniacal, genocidal prick. The serpent, in contrast, actually tells Eve the truth.

I find it interesting, however, that a grown man such as yourself believes in magic and talking snakes.
Never assume!!!!!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:50 PM   #379
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
TBD: you are avoiding this bit...

xoxox

"Satan"
No I actually addressed it several times by saying:

read your New Testament!
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:51 PM   #380
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,966
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I grew up attending a fundamentalist church where they taught that the bible is the unerring word of God. Which was an idea I could never accept even though it was church doctrine. I mean what thinking adult actually believes that the Noah or Jonah accounts are real? Which is why I think it is kind of interesting that those stories are taught to children in Sunday School and not to the adult congregation.

It's not that Christians are stupid it's that people are both lazy and preachers know that the fastest way to deconvert people is for people to actually read the book. That is what made me an atheist. While I had read many passages in the bible there was so much i had never read. So I was determined to read the whole thing. And the more I read not only did I believe less the more I hated it. You see its all good when you read about love and forgiveness and grace or having the strength to face the big bad world but that is really a small part of the book. Most of the book is a horror show of a brutal violent insecure dictator demanding servility and the unquestioning slaves it makes of the followers. I think it is close to impossible to get through the Old Testament thinking that God is anything but an evil psycho. But as bad as God is, it is the effect God has on the people that is really sickening. They are as wicked as the Einsatzgruppen troopers in WWII.

The story of Abraham is supposed to be a good story but it's not. Abraham is going to kill his son because he believes God told him to. But for me it was the story of Jeptha that made say 'enough, I want nothing to do with this God'. If you don't know it, that's okay most Christians don't know it. I didn't know it until I sat down to read the whole bible. I've never heard a preacher base a sermon on the story and it's easy to see why. Jeptha is a general who promised God that if he could be victorious in battle he would sacrifice whatever person or animal that greeted him when he returned home. It turned out to be his teenage daughter. The man was heartbroken and told his daughter what he promised God. His daughter actually understood telling her father that it was OK.
This was sick.

From that moment on I refused to praise God or believe. My parents asked me to talk to the pastor about it. We went over it together but his explanation was pathetic. I'm not sure I ever believed the book was accurate, but I never knew it was so horrible.

Thanks for you're story acbytesla ....... a good read. Myself? I had a relatively easy ride with parents who were not church goers. As a child we had friends, (my brother and I), who were church goers and my parents, who had the idea that a bit of religion would do us good, (what an odd idea don't you think, but not uncommon), sent us along with them some Sundays.

I absolutely hated it, and even felt repulsed from the word go, but my brother lapped it up. He became a born again and I an atheist - hallelujah!
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:51 PM   #381
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14,625
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
To return to the OP, and an issue that has not been addressed by those in thrall to their 'god' ideas: To any rational person, the fact that 'god' is said to be said to have slaughtered nations, murdered nearly the entire planet, given his "faithful servant" a divine rogering, and all the other condign canonized hijinks; make it, not any of its "opponents", a working definition of evil.
I don't know how one can come to a different conclusion. And I tried for a long time to do just that. Very little of what God does would be considered good and moral if we weren't taught that 'God is good'. God through 'command authority' tells us that we must view him and his rules and everything he does is good. But no one, but a sicko would consider those actions as good from any objective position.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:52 PM   #382
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Oh, still laughing about this imaginary 'Satan' being and wondering who it is.....



Oh! Now I understand
Spend some time with the New Testament:

The Temptation of Christ features the devil, and is described in all three synoptic gospels, (Matthew 4:1-11, Mark 1:12-13, and Luke 4:1-13),
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 01:59 PM   #383
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 658
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Spend some time with the New Testament:

The Temptation of Christ features the devil, and is described in all three synoptic gospels, (Matthew 4:1-11, Mark 1:12-13, and Luke 4:1-13),
And WHERE did your "NT" get this new idea of a "devil"? It is NOT in the tanakh ("OT").
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:02 PM   #384
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
And WHERE did your "NT" get this new idea of a "devil"? It is NOT in the tanakh ("OT").
There are LOTS of things in the New Testament that ain't in the tanaka.

that is why they call it New!
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:04 PM   #385
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 658
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
There are LOTS of things in the New Testament that ain't in the tanaka.

that is why they call it New!
You didn't answer the question.........
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:06 PM   #386
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,465
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I grew up attending a fundamentalist church where they taught that the bible is the unerring word of God. Which was an idea I could never accept even though it was church doctrine. I mean what thinking adult actually believes that the Noah or Jonah accounts are real? Which is why I think it is kind of interesting that those stories are taught to children in Sunday School and not to the adult congregation.

It's not that Christians are stupid it's that people are both lazy and preachers know that the fastest way to deconvert people is for people to actually read the book. That is what made me an atheist. While I had read many passages in the bible there was so much i had never read. So I was determined to read the whole thing. And the more I read not only did I believe less the more I hated it. You see its all good when you read about love and forgiveness and grace or having the strength to face the big bad world but that is really a small part of the book. Most of the book is a horror show of a brutal violent insecure dictator demanding servility and the unquestioning slaves it makes of the followers. I think it is close to impossible to get through the Old Testament thinking that God is anything but an evil psycho. But as bad as God is, it is the effect God has on the people that is really sickening. They are as wicked as the Einsatzgruppen troopers in WWII.

The story of Abraham is supposed to be a good story but it's not. Abraham is going to kill his son because he believes God told him to. But for me it was the story of Jeptha that made say 'enough, I want nothing to do with this God'. If you don't know it, that's okay most Christians don't know it. I didn't know it until I sat down to read the whole bible. I've never heard a preacher base a sermon on the story and it's easy to see why. Jeptha is a general who promised God that if he could be victorious in battle he would sacrifice whatever person or animal that greeted him when he returned home. It turned out to be his teenage daughter. The man was heartbroken and told his daughter what he promised God. His daughter actually understood telling her father that it was OK.
This was sick.

From that moment on I refused to praise God or believe. My parents asked me to talk to the pastor about it. We went over it together but his explanation was pathetic. I'm not sure I ever believed the book was accurate, but I never knew it was so horrible.
Hate that one myself. One of those that made me decide if it was ever truly proved there was a god I would need to find and kill it. Bad gods, bad people - kill 'em all.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:09 PM   #387
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
<dishonesty snip>
Your decision to pretend not to read a source does not invalidate the source; see above.

Your pretense that two popes did not affirm, as doctrine, that "Adam" must be taken as a literal, single person is not excused by your pretense at conflating statements about biological evolution with statements about the literal person-hood of Adam.

Your pretense that I referred to an argument of a pope or two as a "red herring" does not excuse you from admitting that it was, in fact, your argument to which I referred.

I get it: "winning" the argument, by whatever means you feel you can get away with, is superior, in your eyes to addressing fact.

To avoid looking so silly in the future, I suggest you read both encyclicals, especially the parts about "Adam" being a real, single, person.

Now, suppose you get back on topic, and address the monstrous evil of the 'god' of the xian OT. You know, the one that is said to be said to have killed everyone on the planet (save 8) because it admitted its incompetent creation had gangit agley. Or the one that is said to be said to have authorized the slaughter of the autochtones of Canaan. Or the one that commanded that sexually active, non-married women be stoned to death (and all the other fun reasons the faithful are commanded to murder). Or even the one that lied to "Adam" and "Eve" in the 'garden'.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:10 PM   #388
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
You didn't answer the question.........
Because it was a silly loaded question, of course. It suggests if something isn't in the old testament it can't be in the New, which is sha-ludicrous.

plus I don't want to bother quibbling with your hyper-pedantic assertion that the being which we refer to as Satan was not mentioned in the Old testament, despite the fact it was.
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:13 PM   #389
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No I actually addressed it several times by saying:

read your New Testament!
Actually, it's your 'new testament'. In your "satan"-haunted opinion, does 'god' just get a pass for all the evil things your own 'old testament' praises it for doing?

(Further, how very dishonest of you to pretend that I have not read, and studied, and translated large parts of, your 'new testament'. Keep the players straight {so to speak}.)

Nor have you yet to address the question...
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

Last edited by Slowvehicle; 10th February 2017 at 02:15 PM.
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:14 PM   #390
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
moving goal post snipped
So we now fully agree, this statement:

Quote:
" the doctrine, pronounced ex cathedra, that Adam and Eve may not be interpreted "metaphorically" by the faithful"
is utterly shamtastic and false.

Beautiful. Be careful the next time you throw around easily debunked claims about ex cathedra
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:20 PM   #391
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Spend some time with the New Testament:

The Temptation of Christ features the devil, and is described in all three synoptic gospels, (Matthew 4:1-11, Mark 1:12-13, and Luke 4:1-13),
Yet your 'old testament' does not mention ό διάβολος, not even once.

To say nothing of defending a character as "not imaginary" when that character is introduced in a book in which "miracles" happen...
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

Last edited by Slowvehicle; 10th February 2017 at 02:22 PM.
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:23 PM   #392
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Yet your 'old testament' does not mention ό διάβολος, not even once.

To say nothing of defending a character as "not fiction" when that character is introduced in a book in which "miracles" happen...
So?

by the way, it does not mention basketball either, but i have been raining threes in this thread for days.
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:24 PM   #393
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14,625
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks for you're story acbytesla ....... a good read. Myself? I had a relatively easy ride with parents who were not church goers. As a child we had friends, (my brother and I), who were church goers and my parents, who had the idea that a bit of religion would do us good, (what an odd idea don't you think, but not uncommon), sent us along with them some Sundays.

I absolutely hated it, and even felt repulsed from the word go, but my brother lapped it up. He became a born again and I an atheist - hallelujah!
It may be odd Thor, but I get what your parents were doing. One, they were creating alone time for themselves. Two, they probably thought you couldn't get in to too much trouble at church. What could it hurt? Me, I wouldn't send anyone under say the age of 13 to church myself. But I actually think that a comparative religions course should be mandatory. Once you take an intellectual approach it gets extra difficult to accept it as anything but a superstition.

As for your brother and you. I understand both reactions having felt both drawn and repulsed by it. I think it's easy to be seduced. You don't have to think for yourself. There's a group there to support you.
But the God part is so bs and people take on affectations and it can be so phoney. I'm so glad I don't have to fake non-believing any more which I did for a long time. Can I have an Amen?
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

Last edited by acbytesla; 10th February 2017 at 02:29 PM.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:25 PM   #394
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So we now fully agree, this statement:

is utterly shamtastic and false.

Beautiful. Be careful the next time you throw around easily debunked claims about ex cathedra
You have not done your homework. The fact that you are preserving intentional ignorance does not transmogrify you lies into truth. Your decision to ignore a source promulgated by your own church does not obviate that source.

At least your bluster is (sometimes) entertaining.

To be clear: your claim that we "agree" is, charitably, your error; realistically, your lie.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

Last edited by Slowvehicle; 10th February 2017 at 02:28 PM.
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:26 PM   #395
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 658
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Because it was a silly loaded question, of course. It suggests if something isn't in the old testament it can't be in the New, which is sha-ludicrous.
That is a ridiculous statement. There was no such suggestion as it is obvious that what is in the "New" is not in the "Old".

You still did not answer the question.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
plus I don't want to bother quibbling with your hyper-pedantic assertion that the being which we refer to as Satan was not mentioned in the Old testament, despite the fact it was.
No, it was not. There is no being with the name 'Satan'. No "devil".

In the Tanakh (not "tanaka", "Tanakh" is an acronym) god (YHVH) says that he created good and created evil.

As nearly everyone on this thread has already pointed out, god then demonstrates, all over the place, what evil is. A lot, over and over again.......
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:26 PM   #396
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So?

by the way, it does not mention basketball either, but i have been raining threes in this thread for days.
...another red herring. Surprise.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:26 PM   #397
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
You have not done your homework. The fact that you are preserving intentional ignorance does not transmogrify you lies into truth. Your decision to ignore a source promulgated by your own church does not obviate that source.

At least your bluster is (sometimes) entertaining.
he shoots:

in the words of Pope Pius XII, “simple and metaphorical language adapted to the mentality of a people but little cultured, both state the principal truths which are fundamental for our salvation, and also give a popular description of the origin of the human race and the chosen people” (Humani Generis, 38).

He scores!
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:28 PM   #398
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
That is a ridiculous statement. There was no such suggestion as it is obvious that what is in the "New" is not in the "Old".

You still did not answer the question.


That is what i just said....

We have just jointly answered the question.

fantastic!

By the way, god created Good and what is not good is what we call evil.
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.

Last edited by The Big Dog; 10th February 2017 at 02:30 PM.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:37 PM   #399
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,897
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
By the way, god created Good and what is not good is what we call evil.
'God' created evil by 'his' own claim according to the Old Testament. So, no. You're demonstrably and utterly wrong.
The Norseman is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2017, 02:42 PM   #400
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,973
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
'God' created evil by 'his' own claim according to the Old Testament. So, no. You're demonstrably and utterly wrong.
Zoinks! Assuming that is true (and more about that anon... meaning after you post a quote from Isaiah (wink)) what i wrote is not in any way shape or form "wrong."
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.

Last edited by The Big Dog; 10th February 2017 at 02:43 PM.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:17 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.