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Old 7th February 2017, 08:22 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks man, but let's keep on the topic.

Which is the claim that the Bible makes The Beast look good or something.

Talk about the Great Deceiver!
No, I don't think that is the topic.

What you're saying, in essence, is that you have faith. Your belief in the holiness of the Bible does, of course, mean that what it says is right, but it does not explain why it's holy. You believe that the Catholic doctrine is right because the Catholic Church told you it is. That may well be true, but it's not a productive answer.
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:36 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Don't you find that bizarre? God made all the rules so he doesn't actually need to sacrifice his son does he?

And since Jesus rises in the story God isn't actually sacrificing his son either is he?

Also you don't address God's many atrocities such as the massacre of the Amalkites and the Caananites or turning Lot's wife into salt, letting Jeptha kill his daughter in sacrifice, telling Abraham to slay his son, not to mention theoretically killing almost every living thing on the planet with a global flood. I could list many others, but this will do.

Now again, tell me why God is good?
Who said God made all the rules? He has imbued humans with free will and brought forth his son to create a new covenant with all his people, who suffered, died and was buried and on the third day rose to fulfill the promises made to the prophets and to create life everlasting.
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:38 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The OP has the order backward. First came the religion that claimed there was good and evil, then came the beings that fit the narrative.

Or, could be the order was: 1) God, 2) good is good, 3) evil, 4) the Devil creates the evil.
Or could man have created good, evil, God and the Devil? But I digress.

In many ways I'm reworking the Euthapro question. We've been exploring morality and I believe it is important how you determine what is moral.
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:40 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
No, I don't think that is the topic.

What you're saying, in essence, is that you have faith. Your belief in the holiness of the Bible does, of course, mean that what it says is right, but it does not explain why it's holy. You believe that the Catholic doctrine is right because the Catholic Church told you it is. That may well be true, but it's not a productive answer.
I was in fact responding to the questions posed based on the teachings set forth in the Bible.
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:43 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Who said God made all the rules? He has imbued humans with free will and brought forth his son to create a new covenant with all his people, who suffered, died and was buried and on the third day rose to fulfill the promises made to the prophets and to create life everlasting.
He doesn't make all the rules? Who does? If not God, who then? I thought God was all powerful and the creator of everything? Who made the prophesies? And why do they have to be fulfilled?
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:53 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
He doesn't make all the rules? Who does? If not God, who then? I thought God was all powerful and the creator of everything? Who made the prophesies? And why do they have to be fulfilled?
Did you miss the free will part?
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:55 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You've nailed the paradox. We're taught through our indoctrination (not really the Scriptures) that God is omni-benevolent. But I assert that anyone who studied the bible would have difficulty believing that God is loving or forgiving. The character of God would not be considered good by any of us. The act that is held up is as a demonstration of God's love is the killing of himself as his son and unlike any other being isn't a permanent condition. And why does God do this? To satisfy rules that he himself made.

Scriptures tell us that anyone or anything that might make us disbelieve or disobey God is trying to trick us and is evil. But who's trying to trick someone? The being that is telling us not to investigate or think for ourselves or the being that tells us to open our eyes and see for ourselves? There are a few negative lines about Satan but that is from God's perspective. Yet what God in the book that he supposedly wrote portrays God as a scary violent thug.
It's fairly simple. Bible god's enumerated death toll in the bible is 2.4 million intentionally butchered, plus untold others not numbered at all such as the countless people not allowed on the ark at all.

Compare that with satan who scored 10. And those 10 were the sons and daughters of Job. And that was for a bet with god and with his full permission to kill them just to see what would happen.

Or the garden of Eden, where god lies through his teeth and satan only tells the truth. In fact, even that account demonstrates that god is not omni-everything. Genesis 3 demonstrates that god is an ineffectual moron.
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:59 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Did you miss the free will part?
That doesn't say anything about the character of God and why he had to sacrifice his son and commit his various atrocities.
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Old 7th February 2017, 09:09 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That doesn't say anything about the character of God and why he had to sacrifice his son and commit his various atrocities.
I have already explained why his son was sent to redeem the human race and deliver us from death into everlasting life.
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Old 7th February 2017, 09:30 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
No, I don't think that is the topic.

What you're saying, in essence, is that you have faith. Your belief in the holiness of the Bible does, of course, mean that what it says is right, but it does not explain why it's holy. You believe that the Catholic doctrine is right because the Catholic Church told you it is. That may well be true, but it's not a productive answer.
Has he self Identified as such? Referring to the OT as "Scripture" is not a RCC trait.
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Old 7th February 2017, 09:38 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I have already explained why his son was sent to redeem the human race and deliver us from death into everlasting life.
What? By being temporarily inconvenienced for a weekend?

The fact is that jebus didn't die at all, and sacrificed nothing. At best, he overslept.
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Old 7th February 2017, 09:53 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I have already explained why his son was sent to redeem the human race and deliver us from death into everlasting life.
No, in fact you didn't. You never explained why God requires any sacrifice at all.

The crucifixion doesn't explain the global flood. It doesn't explain why God tells the Israelites to slaughter and rape their neighbors. It doesn't explain God screwing with Abraham and Isaac. It doesn't explain Job or Ezekial or Jeptha. It doesn't explain slavery or why God needs anyone to love or praise him. God is supposedly all powerful but he in fact his petty and jealous. In fact the O.T. describes God as jealous. He commands people at the pain of death to love him. If any living being on the earth did that you would say they are horrible.
BTW, it's not free will if someone is threatening you with death.

So I'll try again. What criteria did you employ to determine that God was good?
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:33 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is precisely what Satan would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity is the height of creation, when in fact it does not take long to see that is in fact not true, and that Satan, the slanderer, the accuser, the trickster, the fallen angel has beguiled so many by appealing to their egos and through false flattery. <"scripture"snip>
I'll just add "fact" to your burgeoning list of words, the actual meaning of which you conceal fro yourself.

"Satan" is no more real than 'god' is...equally valid superstitions.
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:34 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Allow me to retort: Genesis Chapter 3
You got it!

Your "scriptures" contradict themselves, and have little or no consistency.

Well done!
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:35 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yeah, if we're digging into revelations we all need to come back less sober at some appointed time.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/revelation/

Best version EVAR!
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:36 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is a lot of words, none of which support your absurd claim that an objective analysis of the Bible (your words, not mine) that show the BEAST is better than the Almighty, particularly when you claim that I cannot rely on the Bible!
What are posts except "just words?"

Your response is a transparent attempt to ignore the entire point of my post and to reformulate it on your own terms- presumably because you cannot or do not wish to answer the actual points. You state that my words claim that an objective analysis of the Bible shows that the Beast is better than the Almightly. I never used those actual words (beast? objective? Almighty?) and as you know I never claimed that overall the Bible favored the beast. Of course not- the Bible is fictional propaganda for God. Need I repeat my point- there is no real evidence outside of the Bible that God is good and Satan is evil (let alone that either exist), and that even in the Bible, a work of pro-God fiction (God's versions of Pravda) God often comes off more questionably than does Satan, apparently because God has hired bad ghost writers I explained very clearly why using contradictions in a text can legitimately serve to question it, where blindly accepting it can not be used as evidence of its truth. Come on- is what I really wrote and explained so difficult to response to that you must distort and fictionalize it so?

I particularly note that you have yet to explain who told you that what is written in the Bible about God is accurate, rather that it represents lies by God, or lies by the devil pretending to be God. The "God" in the Bible told you so, right? "I God am good, and you can trust me because I am God and good!" You would never trust a car salesman trying the same approach- why trust the self-proclaimed God of the Bible stories? And in fact how do you even know the Bible, if non-fiction as you claim, was inspired by God, instead of by the Devi? Perhaps the Bible is a web of lies told by the Devi himself to mislead believers such as yourself- this would explain why believers are urged to not question it or apply logic to it. Perhaps the true God, the God of goodness is trying to communicate this information to you through skeptics such as those here in this Forum. Perhaps the true God is trying to tell you. "The God of the bible is not me. the true God- the god of the Bible is the Devi! pretending to be me.. Do not believe him" How do you know this is not true?

Further it is clear that you wish to change this conversation into a discussion of the Bible, whereas that is not the main point- it just is the point that allows you endless quotations of how good God is, which is not evidence for the reasons I already explained. Stalin came off very well in his own state-run newspapers- would you quote those as evidence of how good Stalin was?
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:38 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
The theists I know just ignore the Old Testament. All that terrible stuff somehow doesn't count.

The rationalization for the eternal torture has always seemed twisted to me. You may avoid the torture, they say, simply by believing what you are told to believe.
Let 'god' "save" you from what it will do to you if you don't let it "save" you...
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:38 PM   #58
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When did it happen? It was there from the start. That's kind of the point.
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:40 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is a lot of words, none of which support your absurd claim that an objective analysis of the Bible (your words, not mine) that show the BEAST is better than the Almighty, particularly when you claim that I cannot rely on the Bible!
JFG, count up the number of people killed, murdered, wiped out, drowned, and otherwise put to death by 'god'...then do the same for "the adversary.

SRSLY
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:41 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks man, but let's keep on the topic.

Which is the claim that the Bible makes The Beast look good or something.

Talk about the Great Deceiver!
What is this "Beast" of which you prattle? Chapter and verse, if you would...
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:45 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I can read, obviously.

The bible repeatedly shows that the Satan is evil, how can anyone think that the Beast and the Father of Lies is anything other than bad???
Again, are you under the impression that this "Beast" of yours was the "serpent" that encouraged Eve to discover that 'god' had lied to her? Or the "adversary" that made a bet with 'god' that ended up with 'god' doing unspeakable evil to Job? Was it the "Beast" that was said to be said to have raped Egypt, or slaughtered the autocthones of Canaan?

You really need to get your superstitions straight.
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:47 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
John 3:16

Wow that was easy.

Great thread!
"He was temporarily inconvenienced for our 'sins'..."
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:48 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
He doesn't make all the rules? Who does? If not God, who then? I thought God was all powerful and the creator of everything? Who made the prophesies? And why do they have to be fulfilled?
"Scripture" actually says that 'god' "created everything", including evil.
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:51 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I have already explained why his son was sent to redeem the human race and deliver us from death into everlasting life.
Actually, you have "explained" that you hold the superstitious belief that 'god' wanted blood to "save" humans form what it would do to them if they did not let it "save" them. Your 'god' loves us so much it will torture for all eternity anyone who does not love it back in exactly the right way...
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Old 7th February 2017, 11:31 PM   #65
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Yeah I started a thread couple years back about the problem of Satan.

Just reading the standard canonical Christian Bible without any of the add ons or fan fiction (that I'll get to)

1. At some point it was just decided that a bunch of disparate characters which really have little to no thematically relationship The serpent that temps Eve, Lucifer (which isn't even a character so much as a bit of thematic imagery), the Antichrist, some angel the got cast out of heaven, multiple translations of various ancient words for advisory or opponent, and the being that conspires with God to screw with Job and temps Jesus in the desert were all the same character. Really if you go back and read the Bible really only the last two come across as the same guy.

2. Even if we assume that all those characters are Satan, Satan's barely in the Bible and doesn't do much outright evil and never actually seems to be ideologically opposed to God. In the story of Job he and God are outright in cahoots for the same goal. If you read the Bible you don't get the image of some all powerful incarnate of evil who is locked into an eternal war with God over our souls. He's more like a snarky minion in charge God's QA department. There's never any indication in the Bible that Satan is doing things without God's knowledge or approval.

3. It just logically doesn't make sense. How does an all powerful God somehow have a vastly less powerful arch-nemesis?

4. Practically everything modern Christians and modern culture think they know about Satan comes from what is essentially Middle Ages self insert fictions and later works, a fandom in all respect. Milton, Dante, Faust and so forth.

5. So if the people who go to Hell are sinners, how is Satan the bad guy for punishing them? Isn't he sorta just doing his job?
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Old 7th February 2017, 11:43 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Yeah I started a thread couple years back about the problem of Satan.

Just reading the standard canonical Christian Bible without any of the add ons or fan fiction (that I'll get to)

1. At some point it was just decided that a bunch of disparate characters which really have little to no thematically relationship The serpent that temps Eve, Lucifer (which isn't even a character so much as a bit of thematic imagery), the Antichrist, some angel the got cast out of heaven, multiple translations of various ancient words for advisory or opponent, and the being that conspires with God to screw with Job and temps Jesus in the desert were all the same character. Really if you go back and read the Bible really only the last two come across as the same guy.

2. Even if we assume that all those characters are Satan, Satan's barely in the Bible and doesn't do much outright evil and never actually seems to be ideologically opposed to God. In the story of Job he and God are outright in cahoots for the same goal. If you read the Bible you don't get the image of some all powerful incarnate of evil who is locked into an eternal war with God over our souls. He's more like a snarky minion in charge God's QA department. There's never any indication in the Bible that Satan is doing things without God's knowledge or approval.

3. It just logically doesn't make sense. How does an all powerful God somehow have a vastly less powerful arch-nemesis?

4. Practically everything modern Christians and modern culture think they know about Satan comes from what is essentially Middle Ages self insert fictions and later works, a fandom in all respect. Milton, Dante, Faust and so forth.

5. So if the people who go to Hell are sinners, how is Satan the bad guy for punishing them? Isn't he sorta just doing his job?

I thought the idea that Satan was the CEO of Hell was a sort of add on. Didn't God make Hell first? I mean if there was no Hell where were all the non saved souls going to go? You can't just have them floating about can you?
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:05 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I thought the idea that Satan was the CEO of Hell was a sort of add on. Didn't God make Hell first? I mean if there was no Hell where were all the non saved souls going to go? You can't just have them floating about can you?
There's a really effective scene, even to a totally unreligious guy like me, in the Kevin Smith film Dogma where one of the fallen angels explains to a human that originally Hell, created to house Satan and the angels who followed him, was nothing more basically a partition, the only place in existence that's separate from God and the only punishment there was simple, literal lack of God and has he put it "And if you'd ever been in his presence you'd understand that's punishment enough." But it wasn't made abjectly cruel or for want of a better term Hellish beyond that. It was a place of cold, dark solitude and personal attainment, a grand version of "Go to your room and think about what you did."

It wasn't until the first people arrived there, full of their version of guilt, essentially begging to be punished that Hell got turned into a suffering pit.
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:10 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I thought the idea that Satan was the CEO of Hell was a sort of add on. Didn't God make Hell first? I mean if there was no Hell where were all the non saved souls going to go? You can't just have them floating about can you?
Well, if you're going to be biblical about it, one presumes that before the fall, good and evil were not issues needing to be addressed, and at least according to some, no human death at all. So one would need no hell initially, unless the fall was planned. Of course things can get a little complicated, I suppose, if the omniscient god did not foresee such a major event or plan for it, but this but that but anyway, not necessarily.
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:56 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Well, if you're going to be biblical about it, one presumes that before the fall, good and evil were not issues needing to be addressed, and at least according to some, no human death at all. So one would need no hell initially, unless the fall was planned. Of course things can get a little complicated, I suppose, if the omniscient god did not foresee such a major event or plan for it, but this but that but anyway, not necessarily.
Moreover, what exactly was Satan's crime? What did he do that was so evil?

He refused to serve.

In other words, he exercised his right to free will, that God was supposed to have given everyone.

Again, this doesn't really cast God in a good light, does it?
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:40 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
There's a really effective scene, even to a totally unreligious guy like me, in the Kevin Smith film Dogma where one of the fallen angels explains to a human that originally Hell, created to house Satan and the angels who followed him, was nothing more basically a partition, the only place in existence that's separate from God and the only punishment there was simple, literal lack of God and has he put it "And if you'd ever been in his presence you'd understand that's punishment enough." But it wasn't made abjectly cruel or for want of a better term Hellish beyond that. It was a place of cold, dark solitude and personal attainment, a grand version of "Go to your room and think about what you did."

It wasn't until the first people arrived there, full of their version of guilt, essentially begging to be punished that Hell got turned into a suffering pit.

Yes well the timing is important here. If God made the Devil and the other fallen angels, (made perfectly of course), before he made man and they turned out not so good, (their own fault of course), and they were just put behind a partition, then everyone would have been clamouring to get in there too. Who wouldn't rather be there than in the company of the vengeful God. So they had to come up with the fire and brimstone thing to make Hell less palatable.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:42 AM   #71
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It is easy. We look at how many people the entity gratuitiously kill or make their life a hell.
* god made up all life so including parasite, virus, bacterias
* god and job's story
* god and the flood
* god and Sodom and Gomorrah (even if he pretended that there was no innocent, babies can hardly be qualified as sinful - and as a normal city they must have had newborns)
* the bears sent to maul naughty children
etc...


Now let us see the other side :
* "satan" or a devil tempted JC
* "satan" or the "beast" is supposed to call apocalypse in the far future, but it is mostly propaganda from "god" at that point

The result is clear cut. God is an ******* evil mother **********.
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Old 8th February 2017, 03:37 AM   #72
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could someone please point me to this 'Satan' chap in the bible?
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Old 8th February 2017, 04:19 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
could someone please point me to this 'Satan' chap in the bible?
https://www.blueletterbible.org/sear...=s_primary_0_1

19 verses, all in the KJV OT.
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Old 8th February 2017, 05:02 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post

Which meaning of Satan is being used there?


I only ask because 'Satan' doesn't really seem to appear much in the bible anyway.

c.f. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3htvhm
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Old 8th February 2017, 07:16 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, in fact you didn't. You never explained why God requires any sacrifice at all.

The crucifixion doesn't explain the global flood. It doesn't explain why God tells the Israelites to slaughter and rape their neighbors. It doesn't explain God screwing with Abraham and Isaac. It doesn't explain Job or Ezekial or Jeptha. It doesn't explain slavery or why God needs anyone to love or praise him. God is supposedly all powerful but he in fact his petty and jealous. In fact the O.T. describes God as jealous. He commands people at the pain of death to love him. If any living being on the earth did that you would say they are horrible.
BTW, it's not free will if someone is threatening you with death.

So I'll try again. What criteria did you employ to determine that God was good?
I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Spend some time with the New Testament,
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Old 8th February 2017, 07:23 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Spend some time with the New Testament,

Any particular translation or in the original?

If not the original, why not?
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Old 8th February 2017, 07:40 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
There's a really effective scene, even to a totally unreligious guy like me, in the Kevin Smith film Dogma where one of the fallen angels explains to a human that originally Hell, created to house Satan and the angels who followed him, was nothing more basically a partition, the only place in existence that's separate from God and the only punishment there was simple, literal lack of God and has he put it "And if you'd ever been in his presence you'd understand that's punishment enough." But it wasn't made abjectly cruel or for want of a better term Hellish beyond that. It was a place of cold, dark solitude and personal attainment, a grand version of "Go to your room and think about what you did."
I was brought up evangelical Lutheran, and this is the version of Hell that I was taught in catechism class. Later, at the seminary, we were taught to consider things such as Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God to be nothing more than literature.



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Old 8th February 2017, 07:42 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Who wouldn't rather be there than in the company of the vengeful God. So they had to come up with the fire and brimstone thing to make Hell less palatable.
"Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven."



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Old 8th February 2017, 07:49 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Since we are talking about morality and whether it is objective, I want to pose what I view is more interesting question. How did you decide that God was moral and good and Satan is immoral and bad?

Theists always ask me if we don't get our morals from the bible etc where do they come from? I think this is absurd because even the most devout pick and choose the rules from they follow. They may come up with a convoluted and always convenient explanations but they determine what is right and wrong, not their book.

Virtually no one today believes that owning people as property is morally right or that we should stone someone for working on the Sabbath or taking the Lord's name in vain. So they made the determination what is right and wrong and not their book. About the only thing the bible got right was the golden rule which can be found in most other religions including those that predate religion.

Which brings me to my question. How did we determine that God was good and moral and Satan was evil and immoral? I would like to suggest it very well may be the other way around.

God is petty and jealous. He toys with man and is violent and genocidal. Greatest description of God from my perspective is Pacino's description in The Devil's Advocate. Is it really moral to ask man to praise him simply because he may have created us? Theists, no Christians have suggested to me that God has the right to punish us if he wants because he is the creator. That is classic might makes right which in my view is intrinsically immoral.

About the only thing I see Satan does is try to get man to open his eyes and think for himself.

What do you think?
Which is the frequent problem : religion requires we have faith rather than think for ourselves. Thus the (quite fictional) Satan is a symbol of those who do think for themselves while the (quite fictional ) God (in all it's persona) is a symbol for those who need a being that, they think, has their best interests at heart and protects and wuvs them (also quite fictional). Hope this helps!!!!!!
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Old 8th February 2017, 08:23 AM   #80
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It has its roots in Satan not accepting his place in the authoritarian hierarchy of the universe.

Satan rebels against God and tried to pervert the natural order. The dissonance is because we do not live in hierarchical, authoritarian societies any longer, so much of the bible’s story telling if off tone for many of us. The worse things that Satan does in popular culture is spread his rebellion against authority (always trying to talk people into giving their souls to him in place of God).

Milton stumbles into this, and it is not surprising that others do as well. Wester society places more value on the personal freedom of the individual at the expense of social cohesion. A reading of the bible from our modern liberal view of the world, can find sympathy for the Devil because he is the ultimate rebel fighting the power, trying to bring enlightenment to the masses. The authors of the bible, particularly the Old Testament, valued social cohesion and a reverence to hierarchical authority that is just not as common today. To them it is obvious that Satan is evil, just by the nature of his rebellion.
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