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Old 8th February 2017, 08:28 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
This has been one of my major theological questions as well. Ay objective analysis even of the bible (written as inspired by God!) suggest Satan is the better entity. Plus one must consider that the stories are supposedly God's own point of view (i.e. propaganda). Frankly we only have God's word that he is good and that Satan is even, whereas "the facts" combined with our own innate sense of fairness suggest otherwise. In addition to this logic, we have the intriguing threat by God of eternal punishment if we even begin to question God's perspective. Sounds much more like the propaganda of an evil dictator than a true narrative of good versus evil.
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
What are posts except "just words?"

Your response is a transparent attempt to ignore the entire point of my post and to reformulate it on your own terms- presumably because you cannot or do not wish to answer the actual points. You state that my words claim that an objective analysis of the Bible shows that the Beast is better than the Almightly. I never used those actual words (beast? objective? Almighty?)
Uh huh.

Jesus Wept.

Last edited by The Big Dog; 8th February 2017 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 8th February 2017, 08:32 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Let 'god' "save" you from what it will do to you if you don't let it "save" you...
Isn't that so nice of him, god will agree not to torture you for eternity if you will just stroke his ego. What a guy.
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Old 8th February 2017, 08:43 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Isn't that so nice of him, god will agree not to torture you for eternity if you will just stroke his ego. What a guy.
God indeed asks for so little and gives so much in return.
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Old 8th February 2017, 08:50 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Let 'god' "save" you from what it will do to you if you don't let it "save" you...
The thing that you have to keep in mind is why people need saving, and what God is saving you from.

Original sin was a rebellion against God's rules of the Garden. The serpent talked Eve into disobeying God's authority, and since then her and all her children are in the camp of 'rebels". Humans needed to ritually supplicate God to show that we have rejected our rebellious past. So we had priests perform rights and rituals in the Old Testament, and in the new Testament we have to acknowledge that we are lost without the love of Jesus, and his ritualistic sacrifice for us. We have to acknowledge that we are helpless and under God's authority.

It does not make sense if one does not start from the viewpoint of of original sin, and the notion that the worst crime is the rebellion against God. Many, if not most people of Western Liberal Democracies do not instinctively start from a position of reverence to hierarchical authoritarian social structures, so much of the ethics and morality implicit in the Bible is counter intuitive.

Satan is not evil because he is mean or violent, but because he is a rebel. God is inherently good because he is the natural head, the authority figure that everyone and everything needs to honor. God is pretty violent, but from the view point of acceptance of God as the head of the hierarchical structure of the Universe, God has the right to destroy everything when ever he wants.

This is why ideals of Christianity was so useful to reinforce the authority of monarchs. It is also why the more liberal (democratic and egalitarian) Western Society becomes, the less the story of the Bible resonates to us.

This is more implicit in Islam, that openly talks about needing to submit to the will of Allah, but it is at the base of the Christian story as well.
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Last edited by Tormac; 8th February 2017 at 08:58 AM. Reason: Added notion that God's morality is because of his position.
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Old 8th February 2017, 08:56 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Spend some time with the New Testament,
You're just dodging the question and I have spent time with both Yahweh version 1.0 and 2.0
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Old 8th February 2017, 08:58 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
God indeed asks for so little and gives so much in return.
I would disagree. God is asking way too much and gives nothing in return.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:00 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, in fact you didn't. You never explained why God requires any sacrifice at all.

The crucifixion doesn't explain the global flood. It doesn't explain why God tells the Israelites to slaughter and rape their neighbors. It doesn't explain God screwing with Abraham and Isaac. It doesn't explain Job or Ezekial or Jeptha. It doesn't explain slavery or why God needs anyone to love or praise him. God is supposedly all powerful but he in fact his petty and jealous. In fact the O.T. describes God as jealous. He commands people at the pain of death to love him. If any living being on the earth did that you would say they are horrible.
BTW, it's not free will if someone is threatening you with death.

So I'll try again. What criteria did you employ to determine that God was good?
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Spend some time with the New Testament,
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're just dodging the question
Utterly false. You might not like the answer but it is my answer.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:06 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I would disagree. God is asking way too much and gives nothing in return.
"being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."

First timothy 3:6.

Quote:
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.…
John 3;16 again. Hubris is certainly man's greatest folly, being seduced by the The Great deceiver into believing that everything is nothing.

How blessed are those who are humble, because it is they who will inherit the earth! Mathew 5:5
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:13 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
It has its roots in Satan not accepting his place in the authoritarian hierarchy of the universe.

Satan rebels against God and tried to pervert the natural order. The dissonance is because we do not live in hierarchical, authoritarian societies any longer, so much of the bible’s story telling if off tone for many of us. The worse things that Satan does in popular culture is spread his rebellion against authority (always trying to talk people into giving their souls to him in place of God).

Milton stumbles into this, and it is not surprising that others do as well. Wester society places more value on the personal freedom of the individual at the expense of social cohesion. A reading of the bible from our modern liberal view of the world, can find sympathy for the Devil because he is the ultimate rebel fighting the power, trying to bring enlightenment to the masses. The authors of the bible, particularly the Old Testament, valued social cohesion and a reverence to hierarchical authority that is just not as common today. To them it is obvious that Satan is evil, just by the nature of his rebellion.
I think this is right. God is asking for servility and forced love. It's designed to maintain authority for kings and priests. The devil is the temptress He says open your eyes and see for yourself. Abandon blind and unquestioning faith and learn.

Note that it is this urge that has advanced mankind. It has propelled man from a state of ignorance and the Dark Ages into the enlightenment and prosperity. Diseases were cured when man ignored priests who insisted that they were caused by demons and found that they were the results of bacteria, viruses and genetics.

No longer are we ruled by Kings, priests and Popes, but by our choices. And the world is better for it.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:14 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Utterly false. You might not like the answer but it is my answer.
It's not an answer. It's circular reasoning and a dodge.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:17 AM   #91
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I think that the only really unforgivable thing that Satan did was to trick Eve into eating the apple.

Aside from that one thing, all of the killing was done either by God or by bad people.

Also, since some people may not be aware of this one detail, at no point in the Bible does God claim that Jesus is his son. It is rather hinted at, but the claim is never explicitly made.

Additionally, the idea of the sacrifice of Jesus is a way for the post-Jesus humans get around the problem of "original sin". In short, the idea is that if one accepts Jesus as his messiah, then that person is able to be forgiven of his original sin.

I hope this helps.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:21 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
John 3;16 again. Hubris is certainly man's greatest folly, being seduced by the The Great deceiver into believing that everything is nothing.

When did I do that? I don't remember doing that? Why am I damned for something someone else did?


The suspicious might believe that it's all just a ruse to ensure those who've been dealt a ****** hand don't complain too much...
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:21 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
God indeed asks for so little and gives so much in return.
Many people will recognize that there are no supernatural beings, and no eternal torture, merely people trying to control other (gullible) people.

It's the old carrot and the stick. Follow our rules, pay our bills, give us respect, and you will live forever. Otherwise you will burn in hell. I am continually amazed that people still believe this stuff.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:22 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Diseases were cured when man ignored priests who insisted that they were caused by demons and found that they were the results of bacteria, viruses and genetics.

No longer are we ruled by Kings, priests and Popes, but by our choices. And the world is better for it.
Athanasius Kircher, S.J., Jesuit Priest " "When Rome was struck by the bubonic plague in 1656, Kircher spent days on end caring for the sick. Searching for a cure, Kircher observed microorganisms under the microscope and invented the germ theory of disease, which he outlined in his Scrutinium pestis physico-medicum "

For more information see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_t...e-19th_century

So that just happened.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:22 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I think that the only really unforgivable thing that Satan did was to trick Eve into eating the apple.
And even there the serpent was the one telling Eve the truth while god was lying.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:23 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I thought the idea that Satan was the CEO of Hell was a sort of add on. Didn't God make Hell first? I mean if there was no Hell where were all the non saved souls going to go? You can't just have them floating about can you?
Oh, as the religious will happily tell you, you are thinking too much. Stop thinking.


Such is religion.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:23 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's not an answer. It's circular reasoning and a dodge.
'k.



(sometimes there is naught to do but agree with nonsense like this)
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:26 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Uh huh.

Jesus Wept.
Did he? I have never seen any evidence that any such person ever existed.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:26 AM   #99
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Its only by iron age morality that the Satan of the old testament can be considered the evil one, his crime was disobeying his father, a grave offense in the iron age.

That being said, there's also a good argument that in early Judaism, Satan wasn't evil and was probably multiple entities. He largely played the part of...well the devils advocate. Challenging El/Yawheh and testing humans more or less at the command of El/Yawheh. As things evolved and Jews/Christians thought god must be good and evil needed an explanation they recast Satan as a bad guy. Before that most religions just accepted that gods were dicks.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:28 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Athanasius Kircher, S.J., Jesuit Priest " "When Rome was struck by the bubonic plague in 1656, Kircher spent days on end caring for the sick. Searching for a cure, Kircher observed microorganisms under the microscope and invented the germ theory of disease, which he outlined in his Scrutinium pestis physico-medicum "

For more information see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_t...e-19th_century

So that just happened.
But let's be honest, the Jesuits were/are the biggest trouble makers in the Catholic Church. They are often censored throughout the history of the church. I wouldn't be surprised if the church was not keen on this discovery at the time.

The only priests I ever met who I suspected were atheists or agnostic were Jesuits. Our own parish priest was lamenting to the parents of teens that most of the kids who graduate from our local Jesuit high school will be non-practicing in a few years. I would say they are the secret skeptics within the hierarchy.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:30 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
But let's be honest, the Jesuits were/are the biggest trouble makers in the Catholic Church. They are often censored throughout the history of the church. I wouldn't be surprised if the church was not keen on this discovery at the time.

The only priests I ever met who I suspected were atheists or agnostic were Jesuits. Our own parish priest was lamenting to the parents of teens that most of the kids who graduate from our local Jesuit high school will be non-practicing in a few years. I would say they are the secret skeptics within the hierarchy.
I'll bring that up with the Pope.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:31 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Did he? I have never seen any evidence that any such person ever existed.
Huh, yet here you are posting in this thread.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:34 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Athanasius Kircher, S.J., Jesuit Priest " "When Rome was struck by the bubonic plague in 1656, Kircher spent days on end caring for the sick. Searching for a cure, Kircher observed microorganisms under the microscope and invented the germ theory of disease, which he outlined in his Scrutinium pestis physico-medicum "

For more information see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_t...e-19th_century

So that just happened.
And what was the theory before then? It was demonic possession and evil spirits.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:39 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And what was the theory before then? It was demonic possession and evil spirits.
Well after your utterly wrong claim about "ignoring priests" you'll forgive us if we don't take your word for the history of medicine?

You may wish to "bone up" on topics like "the four humors" and "Galen" before spewing more claptrap, hmmm?

Thanks.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:42 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Athanasius Kircher, S.J., Jesuit Priest " "When Rome was struck by the bubonic plague in 1656, Kircher spent days on end caring for the sick. Searching for a cure, Kircher observed microorganisms under the microscope and invented the germ theory of disease, which he outlined in his Scrutinium pestis physico-medicum "

For more information see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_t...e-19th_century

So that just happened.
So long as one ignores two things.

1. In about 400 BC Thucydides first elaborated the concept

2. The church did not want anything at all to do with it.

Mmmm. Nice attitude, church.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:45 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I'll bring that up with the Pope.
And how often is the Vatican "clarifying" that Jesuit's statements?
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:47 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Huh, yet here you are posting in this thread.
Have you never discussed the characters of Greek mythology?
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:47 AM   #108
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Nevertheless we're drifting away from the central question which is how did we determine that God was/is good and the Devil/Satan is bad?

If God's book is the authority as to what is right and wrong how did we come to decide that we are going to dismiss and ignore many of God's endorsements and commandments? Almost no one today sees the ownership of humans as property today as a moral action.I doubt we would consider stoning someone for almost any offense short of murder as moral either.

If this is the case how can anyone claim that the book is providing moral guidance? We do think for ourselves so how did we determine that God is good?
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:49 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well after your utterly wrong claim about "ignoring priests" you'll forgive us if we don't take your word for the history of medicine?

You may wish to "bone up" on topics like "the four humors" and "Galen" before spewing more claptrap, hmmm?

Thanks.
So one priest decided to look around. It doesn't explain the nonsense they were peddling before then.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:51 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
So long as one ignores two things.

1. In about 400 BC Thucydides first elaborated the concept

2. The church did not want anything at all to do with it.

Mmmm. Nice attitude, church.
Uh huh, considering that the Church wasn't around in 400 BC, you'll forgive us if we don't just go ahead and take your word for it.

Thanks.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:55 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So one priest decided to look around. It doesn't explain the nonsense they were peddling before then.
So not going to look up Galen and the four humors then?

Huh.
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Old 8th February 2017, 10:19 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So not going to look up Galen and the four humors then?

Huh.
Huh? What the hell are you going on about? I still haven't seen an answer of what criteria you used to determine that God is good? Is slavery good? Is genocide good? Is telling someone to kill their son or daughter good?
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Old 8th February 2017, 10:31 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Huh? What the hell are you going on about? I still haven't seen an answer of what criteria you used to determine that God is good? Is slavery good? Is genocide good? Is telling someone to kill their son or daughter good?
'k.

sad......
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Old 8th February 2017, 10:37 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
'k.

sad......
Why is asking questions sad?
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Old 8th February 2017, 10:58 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Nevertheless we're drifting away from the central question which is how did we determine that God was/is good and the Devil/Satan is bad?

If God's book is the authority as to what is right and wrong how did we come to decide that we are going to dismiss and ignore many of God's endorsements and commandments? Almost no one today sees the ownership of humans as property today as a moral action.I doubt we would consider stoning someone for almost any offense short of murder as moral either.

If this is the case how can anyone claim that the book is providing moral guidance? We do think for ourselves so how did we determine that God is good?
To be fair, the first half of your question by itself has been debated from classical times to modern times by Judaic, Christian, Islamic, and Secular traditions without definitive answers being accepted. See the "Euthyphro dilemma" for some of the philosophical takes on the issue.

One has to either say 1) that what God does is good BECAUSE he is God, and what he says goes, or that 2) everything that he says is perfect on its own merit. (Although some have claimed 3) that the question itself is just a semantic trick and a false dilemma).

I think that #1 is the best because answer it is easy to demonstrate that somethings that we consider immoral (slavery and genocide for example) were acceptable by the authors of the Bible. I will say though that option # 3, while not satisfying, may also be the best one.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:03 AM   #116
Aepervius
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Spend some time with the New Testament,
Do you mean apocrypha ? Because "the beast" per see is never really named in the bible, shaitan were adversaries , people and the like, and AFAIK even in the NT it is used as such, otherwise another greek word is used.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:06 AM   #117
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Big Dog,
Do you ever plan to get around to explaining your rationale for believing that the words in the bible actually are those of the truly good God, rather than the words of the evil, scheming Satan? You can quote as many passages from the bible as as you wish, but the fundamental problem still remains. You claim to accept that there is a God of god and a devil of evil. But how do you know which of them inspired the bible and the words you cite so blithely as being those of God? You believe that the devil is a liar and deceiver of men- what a great scheme for such an entity to mislead humans into thinking that the devil's words are actually the revelations of God! Wouldn't the devil seeks to write as if he was God, while subtly undermining God as a moral force? Where is the "provenance" (authenticity linkage as applied to paintings and other historical items) that links the bible to an authorship by God rather than to the devil?

Even if we assume that that entity we will call "God" inspired the bible (ignoring the devil form now)- how do we know that God is good? Who tells us so, except God in the bible. Again, you can quote his words, but all you have is an entity telling you that he alone defines what is good, and that he is good (and truthful). Whereas his very actions in his alleged own writings, and any observation of the universe as exists strongly indicates otherwise. Some theologists have argued that God, being The Creator, gets to define good and evil. I don't buy into any part of this argument myself, but if you accept it, then how do you know that God was indeed The Creator, except that he tells you so in the bible, right? Why believe that? If a car salesman made the claim "I define honesty and I am honest. This is the best car you ever could buy!" would you ignore the fact that the car was falling apart?

To quote the country western song- "Who are you going to believe- me or your lying eyes?"

Last edited by Giordano; 8th February 2017 at 11:32 AM. Reason: corrected mis-spelling
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:07 AM   #118
Aepervius
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why is asking questions sad?
Because he has no proper answer. After all that questions has come time and time again over thousands of year literally , with the contention that god with its acts , is bad, but since they define god as "not being bad" therefore it is the "interpretation" of the lowly mortal which is wrong or "god works in mysterious ways". Naturally if you don't bite that, the question stays unanswered at best, at worst it is answered by "god is an ******* reflecting time of hardship the original writer were living".
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:09 AM   #119
Giordano
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why is asking questions sad?
'k Sad is now one of TBD's favorite responses. Apparently it works equally well in all threads. Personally, if so many posts made me so sad I wouldn't be so okay with them.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:09 AM   #120
Aepervius
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
To be fair, the first half of your question by itself has been debated from classical times to modern times by Judaic, Christian, Islamic, and Secular traditions without definitive answers being accepted. See the "Euthyphro dilemma" for some of the philosophical takes on the issue.

One has to either say 1) that what God does is good BECAUSE he is God, and what he says goes, or that 2) everything that he says is perfect on its own merit. (Although some have claimed 3) that the question itself is just a semantic trick and a false dilemma).

I think that #1 is the best because answer it is easy to demonstrate that somethings that we consider immoral (slavery and genocide for example) were acceptable by the authors of the Bible. I will say though that option # 3, while not satisfying, may also be the best one.
1) to 3) reflect the Christian viewpoint. But taken impartially without the lemma "what God does is good BECAUSE he is God" then you quickly go to 4) actually , we don't know that Yhwh is good, and from the description, he would be judged now as bad.
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