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Old 8th February 2017, 11:11 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Do you mean apocrypha ? Because "the beast" per see is never really named in the bible, shaitan were adversaries , people and the like, and AFAIK even in the NT it is used as such, otherwise another greek word is used.
No

Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Because he has no proper answer..
false. Because I answered it, and the contention that I did not answer it is monstrous falsehood.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:13 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Big Dog,
Do you ever plan to get around to explaining your rationale for believing that the words in the bible actually are those of the truly good God, rather than the words of the evil, scheming Satan? You can quote as many passages from the bible as as you wish, but the fundamental problem still remains. You claim to accept that there is a God of god and a devil of evil. But how do you know which of them inspired the bible and the words you cite so blithely as being those of God? You believe that the devil is a liar and deceiver of men- what a great scheme for such an entity to mislead humans into thinking that the devil's words are actually the revelations of God! Wouldn't the devil seeks to write as if he was God, while subtly undermining God as a moral force? Where is the "providence" (authenticity linkage as applied to paintings and other historical items) that links the bible to an authorship by God rather than to the devil?

Even if we assume that that entity we will call "God" inspired the bible (ignoring the devil form now)- how do we know that God is good? Who tells us so, except God in the bible. Again, you can quote his words, but all you have is an entity telling you that he alone defines what is good, and that he is good (and truthful). Whereas his very actions in his alleged own writings, and any observation of the universe as exists strongly indicates otherwise. Some theologists have argued that God, being The Creator, gets to define good and evil. I don't buy into any part of this argument myself, but if you accept it, then how do you know that God was indeed The Creator, except that he tells you so in the bible, right? Why believe that? If a car salesman made the claim "I define honesty and I am honest. This is the best car you ever could buy!" would you ignore the fact that the car was falling apart?

To quote the country western song- "Who are you going to believe- me or your lying eyes?"
Talk about a scheming false hood... oh dear...
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:14 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
To be fair, the first half of your question by itself has been debated from classical times to modern times by Judaic, Christian, Islamic, and Secular traditions without definitive answers being accepted. See the "Euthyphro dilemma" for some of the philosophical takes on the issue.

One has to either say 1) that what God does is good BECAUSE he is God, and what he says goes, or that 2) everything that he says is perfect on its own merit. (Although some have claimed 3) that the question itself is just a semantic trick and a false dilemma).

I think that #1 is the best because answer it is easy to demonstrate that somethings that we consider immoral (slavery and genocide for example) were acceptable by the authors of the Bible. I will say though that option # 3, while not satisfying, may also be the best one.
If you go back through the thread I mentioned that I was reworking the Euthypro dilemma for today. It's amazing. It's as relevant today as it was then.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:17 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Talk about a scheming false hood... oh dear...
Unfortunately for you, it is an actual philosophical problem which has never been solved.

You either accept the word ad hoc as given by god, or not. But you cannot reason those are the words of a god, a demon, or a human from the book.

And again I contend that everything you think you know about "Satan" is apocrypha. There is next to nothing in the bible. Eden story, revelation, the visit of the demon to Jesus, none of them mention Satan, but OTOH in the original meaning "adversary" is visible in multiple part from OT and NT as being more a generic term (adversaries) than represent a demon. e.g. See J admonition to peter.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:19 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

false. Because I answered it, and the contention that I did not answer it is monstrous falsehood.
You didn't answer it. Let's try again. Given that the God of the bible in his own words is jealous, genocidal, racist, murderous and cruel, how did you decide he was good?
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:22 AM   #126
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Oh and the Euthypro dilemma is not solved by Christianity, they just more or less pose a lemma "god is good" and bite themselves in circle after a few convolution.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:25 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You didn't answer it. Let's try again. Given that the God of the bible in his own words is jealous, genocidal, racist, murderous and cruel, how did you decide he was good?
Loading a question is the exact opposite of skepticism.

Nevertheless I will go ahead and once again answer the question that i have already answered:

I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries of God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:26 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Uh huh, considering that the Church wasn't around in 400 BC, you'll forgive us if we don't just go ahead and take your word for it.

Thanks.
Duh. The point was that the concept was circulating way before any christian church existed. Do not pretend that you did not get that point.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:27 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Talk about a scheming false hood... oh dear...
Which part is false?

And why?
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:27 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Duh. .
stopped reading right there.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:28 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Which part is false?

And why?
The entire thing and the very least reason being that the author of that mess does not believe a bloody word of it
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:31 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Loading a question is the exact opposite of skepticism.

Nevertheless I will go ahead and once again answer the question that i have already answered:

I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries of God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
The revelation that he gave himself to himself for a weekend so that he could do what he allegedly wants to do is an example of goodness? Would not forgiveness of sins without a sacrifice be a far better example?
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:35 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
The revelation that he gave himself to himself for a weekend so that he could do what he allegedly wants to do is an example of goodness? Would not forgiveness of sins without a sacrifice be a far better example?
No
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:36 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The entire thing and the very least reason being that the author of that mess does not believe a bloody word of it
Addressing your last statement first, I don't believe that you can read minds meaning that your ability to determine that the author doesn't believe what he wrote to be based on your own disbelief.

In other words, your rationale is weak.

Addressing the initial point, you actually need to demonstrate where the logic of the statements is flawed.

You are avoiding dealing with the actual argument.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:37 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
1) to 3) reflect the Christian viewpoint. But taken impartially without the lemma "what God does is good BECAUSE he is God" then you quickly go to 4) actually , we don't know that Yhwh is good, and from the description, he would be judged now as bad.
I would not say that 1-3 reflect the Christian view point exclusively (as far as I know 1 and 2 were first proposed by Socrates). They do assume that "God" in a monotheistic model, and it is hard for modern people to escape either Judaic, Christian, or Islamic traditions, as strong as the three of them are in the west.

I think that answer #2 does lead itself to the judgment that God is a bloodthirsty abuser, as seen by today's standards (your #4). But judging the supposed "God" and calling him evil is easily defeated by the hierarchical argument of #1. My dog is in no position to claim that I am evil because I eat beef and only serve him dog food. Just so humans are in no position to judge God, because we are "a little lower than the angels" and far beneath Him.

Don't get me wrong Aepervius, outside of this philosophical question I think that it is all "just wind in sails", but within the context of the suppositions claiming that God's actions are bad by our morality weakens argument 2, but does little against 1 or 3.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:37 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No
Why?
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:40 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Addressing your last statement first, I don't believe that you can read minds meaning that your ability to determine that the author doesn't believe what he wrote to be based on your own disbelief.

In other words, your rationale is weak.

Addressing the initial point, you actually need to demonstrate where the logic of the statements is flawed.

You are avoiding dealing with the actual argument.
Read minds? Did you really just strawman the **** out of that and accuse me of having a weak rationale? That is amazing.

I know it because the author in question said that the whole thing is a work of fiction.

C'mon man.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:40 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Loading a question is the exact opposite of skepticism.

Nevertheless I will go ahead and once again answer the question that i have already answered:

I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries of God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
That's an excuse for ignoring the atrocities..and the questions. Jesus Christ isn't needed if God himself doesn't require blood sacrifices.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:41 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
If you go back through the thread I mentioned that I was reworking the Euthypro dilemma for today. It's amazing. It's as relevant today as it was then.
Lol, sorry if I missed that acbytesla.

You know you have a good question if it is still fun to talk about even after some of the great minds of the ages have had a go with it.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:46 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That's an excuse for ignoring the atrocities..and the questions. Jesus Christ isn't needed if God himself doesn't require blood sacrifices.
False and false.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:56 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Loading a question is the exact opposite of skepticism.

Nevertheless I will go ahead and once again answer the question that i have already answered:

I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries of God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
As revealed by who (or more importantly, what)? How is it documented that the sacrifice of Jesus leads to salvation for the rest of us, other than by the alleged words of God (and Jesus) himself? How do we know that the entire story in the NT (and in the OT) is a manifestation of God's love rather than a trick of Satan? Perhaps believing in Jesus is believing in a devil-inspired false God and leads to damnation by the true God (or Gods). How would one know? Indeed people of the Jewish faith believe that the NT is blasphemous and a dangerous misunderstanding of the true religion as explained in the OT. Yet other faiths believe that both the NT and the OT are wrong and that these books lead people away from the true God or Gods. They see in their own faiths and their own lives just as much confirmation of their beliefs in their own deities as you do of those in your bible. What is the evidence that you are correct and they are not?

How do you even know today that the feelings that you obtain by praying to Jesus or the God of the OT are not deceiving you and are only a trick of the devil to lead you further away from the true path, the true God? Sex, drugs, and alcohol can all produce "good" feelings in people, yet I suspect that you view these as tricks of the devil. How do you know that the warm and "good" feelings you receive in response to your prayers to the God of the OT and NT are not similar tricks of the devil to mislead you into evil?
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:57 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Isn't that so nice of him, god will agree not to torture you for eternity if you will just stroke his ego. What a guy.
Inorite?
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:57 AM   #143
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Ah- TBD is heavily into the one and two word answer stage of his responses. Time for me to take a break.
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:00 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
False and false.
So an actual thoughtful reply is too difficult to even attempt.
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:12 PM   #145
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Rule of So, other blatant strawmanning, misrepresentations, poisoning the well, and loaded questions....

Oh well...
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:15 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Loading a question is the exact opposite of skepticism.

Nevertheless I will go ahead and once again answer the question that i have already answered:

I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries of God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
Strange definition of love. If I was dating a guy and he murdered his son and said, I did this to prove my love for you! I'd say he's a psychopath. Not to mention Christians are basically worshipping God out of guilt for his sacrifice (which wasn't even a sacrifice if you think it through, at least not by God...he killed Jesus which brought Jesus to heaven, so God just got his son home. What did he sacrifice?)
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:23 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Loading a question is the exact opposite of skepticism.

Nevertheless I will go ahead and once again answer the question that i have already answered:

I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries of God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
And are you really claiming that you don't understand how that answer is circular?

I'm reminded of a kid I once knew who tried to sell me a bicycle headlight. I said I didn't want it, and he said it was the best headlight in the world. I asked how he know that, and he said "It says so right on the box."

So you believe God is good because the Bible says so. But you have not told us why the opinion of the Bible is to be trusted, other than your faith.
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:32 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Lol, sorry if I missed that acbytesla.

You know you have a good question if it is still fun to talk about even after some of the great minds of the ages have had a go with it.
That's OK and I agree. It really is a profound question.

The Big Dog essentially refuses to think about it because it challenges why we think what we think. It simply is too potentially world view altering for him too challenge what he has been taught. IMV, thinking for ourselves should not be viewed as subversive as opposed to being a zombie for God.
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:35 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
"Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven."



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Is that an original of yours and if not were did you get it?
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:39 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
God indeed asks for so little and gives so much in return.

Asks for so little?????

An eternity of grovelling.
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:40 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Is that an original of yours and if not were did you get it?
It's from Milton's Paradise Lost.
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:45 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
And are you really claiming that you don't understand how that answer is circular?

I'm reminded of a kid I once knew who tried to sell me a bicycle headlight. I said I didn't want it, and he said it was the best headlight in the world. I asked how he know that, and he said "It says so right on the box."

So you believe God is good because the Bible says so. But you have not told us why the opinion of the Bible is to be trusted, other than your faith.
Oh gosh golly no, I am really not at all claiming that I don't understand how that answer is circular.

Now there may be several reasons for that, of course, beside the obvious, including that you misread the actual question.

Why don't y'all go back and take a long hard look at it and "circle" back when you have cottoned to the reason.
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:47 PM   #153
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Oh, as the religious will happily tell you, you are thinking too much. Stop thinking.


Such is religion.

Yes you're right of course. I will just switch my mind of and chant the following like a mantra:

"For God so loved the World he gave his ............"
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:52 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Loading a question is the exact opposite of skepticism.

Nevertheless I will go ahead and once again answer the question that i have already answered:

I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries of God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
What a load of sanctimonious crap.

God never actually claimed the Jesus was his son.

In fact, it is quite doubtful that Jesus ever existed. Furthermore, it is an almost certainty that God does not exist.
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Old 8th February 2017, 12:57 PM   #155
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Sigh:

Quote:
As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”
Matt 3;17

Sanctimonious facts.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:00 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sigh:



Matt 3;17

Sanctimonious facts.
Why not think for yourself?
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:01 PM   #157
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Hi The Big Dog,

This question is primarily for you, as I suspect that you are the only one in this thread posting from a Bible-based stance.

I think that this gets to the root of the log-jam that seems to be occurring between you and many other posters in this thread.

I don’t know if you read my posts about the Euthyphro dilemma, I wanted to know your take on it. At it’s heart is the question of whether what God says is good because God is the ultimate authority and arbiter on anything in the universe, or is what God says good because God only says inherently good things. Would be possible for me to say something just as good as God if what I said was also inherently good?
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:06 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Since we are talking about morality and whether it is objective, I want to pose what I view is more interesting question. How did you decide that God was moral and good and Satan is immoral and bad?

Theists always ask me if we don't get our morals from the bible etc where do they come from? I think this is absurd because even the most devout pick and choose the rules from they follow. They may come up with a convoluted and always convenient explanations but they determine what is right and wrong, not their book.

Virtually no one today believes that owning people as property is morally right or that we should stone someone for working on the Sabbath or taking the Lord's name in vain. So they made the determination what is right and wrong and not their book. About the only thing the bible got right was the golden rule which can be found in most other religions including those that predate religion.

Which brings me to my question. How did we determine that God was good and moral and Satan was evil and immoral? I would like to suggest it very well may be the other way around.

God is petty and jealous. He toys with man and is violent and genocidal. Greatest description of God from my perspective is Pacino's description in The Devil's Advocate. Is it really moral to ask man to praise him simply because he may have created us? Theists, no Christians have suggested to me that God has the right to punish us if he wants because he is the creator. That is classic might makes right which in my view is intrinsically immoral.

About the only thing I see Satan does is try to get man to open his eyes and think for himself.

What do you think?
Late to the party and maybe it has been discussed, but I have said before, if I were Satan, the first thing I would do would be to convince everyone I was God.

Now, Satan is supposed to be the great deceiver and all, it would completely loony to think he hadn't thought of that strategy.

Point 2: back in the old days of alt.atheism, there was a regular contributor there named Wen King Su, and his schtick was, "How do you know the being you are worshipping really God and not a powerful deceiver?"

His challenge was met with a lot of silence.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:10 PM   #159
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why not think for yourself?
Claim: "God never actually claimed the Jesus was his son."
response: Quote actual verse rebutting that claim.
reply: why don't you think for yourself.
reaction:

wow.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:13 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Hi The Big Dog,

This question is primarily for you, as I suspect that you are the only one in this thread posting from a Bible-based stance.

I think that this gets to the root of the log-jam that seems to be occurring between you and many other posters in this thread.

I don’t know if you read my posts about the Euthyphro dilemma, I wanted to know your take on it. At it’s heart is the question of whether what God says is good because God is the ultimate authority and arbiter on anything in the universe, or is what God says good because God only says inherently good things. Would be possible for me to say something just as good as God if what I said was also inherently good?
Yes
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