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Old 8th February 2017, 01:19 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Claim: "God never actually claimed the Jesus was his son."
response: Quote actual verse rebutting that claim.
reply: why don't you think for yourself.
reaction:

wow.
One syllable single word answer is the depth of your ability to think? Impressive. And as you have said, sad.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:21 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Late to the party and maybe it has been discussed, but I have said before, if I were Satan, the first thing I would do would be to convince everyone I was God.

Now, Satan is supposed to be the great deceiver and all, it would completely loony to think he hadn't thought of that strategy.

Point 2: back in the old days of alt.atheism, there was a regular contributor there named Wen King Su, and his schtick was, "How do you know the being you are worshipping really God and not a powerful deceiver?"

His challenge was met with a lot of silence.
The uncomfortable paradox.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:29 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
One syllable single word answer is the depth of your ability to think? Impressive. And as you have said, sad.
And now we reach the point of the thread that consists of baseless personal insults.

Oh well, I knew it was coming of course, people react very poorly to having their religious beliefs challenged.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:29 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sigh:



Matt 3;17

Sanctimonious facts.

Oh, Dear.

Still misusing the term, "facts".

Huh.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:31 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Late to the party and maybe it has been discussed, but I have said before, if I were Satan, the first thing I would do would be to convince everyone I was God.

Now, Satan is supposed to be the great deceiver and all, it would completely loony to think he hadn't thought of that strategy.

Point 2: back in the old days of alt.atheism, there was a regular contributor there named Wen King Su, and his schtick was, "How do you know the being you are worshipping really God and not a powerful deceiver?"

His challenge was met with a lot of silence.
I suspect that I would start by responding by asking:

1. Are you satan? the answer would of course be no, so that is finished.

2. i would ask Wen King Su whether he believed that God was the powerful deceiver, and the answer would of course be no, so that is finished.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:41 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Did you miss the free will part?

Boy do I get heartily sick of this response.

For some reason Christians see this as a get out of jail card that cannot be challenged and I am damned if I know why.

Question:

If God made us perfect why did we turn out to be less than perfect?

Answer:

God gave us free will.

Question:

But if we made the wrong choice when using our free will then surely our reasoning ability was less than perfect?

Answer:

No!! God made us perfect but he gave us free will. He gave us free will. He gave us free will. He gave us free will. He gave us free will. He gave us free will.

Got the picture? OK we can move on from here then.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:43 PM   #167
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What is the basis for the assertion that we have free will? How do you distinguish actual free will from apparent free will?

A sufficiently powerful being could make you feel that you were choosing freely while at the same time controlling your actions.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:44 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
And now we reach the point of the thread that consists of baseless personal insults.

Oh well, I knew it was coming of course, people react very poorly to having their religious beliefs challenged.
There is no insult. Instead of addressing the question you rely on scripture and one word answers. Since when is pointing out the facts an insult?

I have asked a very reasonable question and your replies are simply beneath you. In fact they are beneath pretty much anyone with an IQ of a 100. I've seen you make intelligent and inciteful posts on other threads so your abilities are not in question, only your independence of mind.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:50 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sigh:



Matt 3;17

Sanctimonious facts.
Show us one place in the Bible where God claims Jesus is his son.
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:51 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
What is the basis for the assertion that we have free will? How do you distinguish actual free will from apparent free will?

A sufficiently powerful being could make you feel that you were choosing freely while at the same time controlling your actions.
The fact that we sin.
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:02 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The fact that we sin.

A yes, I notice you skip over my post and just answer another's response to it.

The reason?

You don't have an answer!
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:05 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A yes, I notice you skip over my post and just answer another's response to it.

The reason?

You don't have an answer!
Oh dear... I am sorry. i acknowledge that you are "heartily sick" of it.

Yes, I "got" your picture.
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:23 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear... I am sorry. i acknowledge that you are "heartily sick" of it.

Yes, I "got" your picture.

I join the queue of those waiting for some kind of thoughtful answer to the question.
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:26 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yes
Thanks for the reply The Big Dog, I know you're replying to several people at once.

I was curious how you would say that Deuteronomy 5:9 jived with the notion of inherent goodness in God's statements.

Deuteronomy 5:9 (In the New American Standard version, in relation to making a graven image) "You shall not worship or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, and a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

Now to me it seems immoral for someone to blame a grandchild of a wrongdoing that someone's grandfather did. Here God clearly says that He will punish even to the fourth generation of people their idol worship. I think is wrong to blame younger generations for the sins of their grandfathers.

Would you say that it is correct to blame otherwise innocent people for misdeeds of their grandfathers and great grandfathers? Is God making a confession of having an anger management problem here? Or am I taking this out of context, and misunderstanding the situation?
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:32 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I join the queue of those waiting for some kind of thoughtful answer to the question.
The thoughtful answer to what question?
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:39 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Thanks for the reply The Big Dog, I know you're replying to several people at once.

I was curious how you would say that Deuteronomy 5:9 jived with the notion of inherent goodness in God's statements.

Deuteronomy 5:9 (In the New American Standard version, in relation to making a graven image) "You shall not worship or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, and a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

Now to me it seems immoral for someone to blame a grandchild of a wrongdoing that someone's grandfather did. Here God clearly says that He will punish even to the fourth generation of people their idol worship. I think is wrong to blame younger generations for the sins of their grandfathers.

Would you say that it is correct to blame otherwise innocent people for misdeeds of their grandfathers and great grandfathers? Is God making a confession of having an anger management problem here? Or am I taking this out of context, and misunderstanding the situation?

I think I can answer this for The Big Dog.

It is not wrong to do this because it is God doing it and he cannot be wrong.

I have a born again nephew, who blamed an affliction of being arrogant to others who did not agree with him, on his grandfather - my father. He was quite cool with the idea he was being punished for my fathers shortcomings. Mind you he overcame the affliction by driving out the arrogant demon in the name of Jesus.
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:40 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Nevertheless I will go ahead and once again answer the question that i have already answered:

I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries of God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
God didn't sacrifice his son at all. Jebus was merely temporarily inconvenienced for a weekend.
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:43 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh gosh golly no, I am really not at all claiming that I don't understand how that answer is circular.

Now there may be several reasons for that, of course, beside the obvious, including that you misread the actual question.

Why don't y'all go back and take a long hard look at it and "circle" back when you have cottoned to the reason.
You realize that this dilemma is so old and so unanswered for a certain reason, right ?
Your "i am not circular" is not fooling anybody. If it was as simple as you think... That would be an answered question, and would not belong to philosophy anymore.
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:43 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Thanks for the reply The Big Dog, I know you're replying to several people at once.

I was curious how you would say that Deuteronomy 5:9 jived with the notion of inherent goodness in God's statements.

Deuteronomy 5:9 (In the New American Standard version, in relation to making a graven image) "You shall not worship or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, and a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

Now to me it seems immoral for someone to blame a grandchild of a wrongdoing that someone's grandfather did. Here God clearly says that He will punish even to the fourth generation of people their idol worship. I think is wrong to blame younger generations for the sins of their grandfathers.

Would you say that it is correct to blame otherwise innocent people for misdeeds of their grandfathers and great grandfathers? Is God making a confession of having an anger management problem here? Or am I taking this out of context, and misunderstanding the situation?
well the very next line says that if you follow Him, he will benefit His people to a 1000 generations. I think it is quite a clear admonition to choose well, to choose God because your decisions can have ripple effects.

Now, do not worry about the innocent generations, for God created a New covenant with his believers:

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:44 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The thoughtful answer to what question?
You should probably step out Big Dog. Maybe you truly believe you are addressing the question, but I think you know that you are not. And that's OK. I understand that the question is uncomfortable for believers. Whatever it is that make people dismiss their own faculties and intellect will always be a mystery to me.
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:45 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The thoughtful answer to what question?

This is like pulling teeth.

The question is how can man turn out to be less than perfect when God made him perfect?

And before you come back with the "He gave us free will" line ........ if our judgement was poor when using our free will, then our ability to judge was not perfect, so the hardware we were using to make the judgment was not perfect. Got it?
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:47 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Claim: "God never actually claimed the Jesus was his son."
response: Quote actual verse rebutting that claim.
reply: why don't you think for yourself.
reaction:

wow.
No. This is circular because you use the bible to justify the bible. In other word you have NO outside source. That is why this is circular and you cannot justify the origin of that book. This is the point people are more less trying to tell you.
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:49 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sigh:

Quote:
As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”
Matt 3;17

Sanctimonious facts.
How do you know that ever happened? Just taking it on faith?
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:52 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
How do you know that ever happened? Just taking it on faith?
Pretty much. I mean this thread was doomed from the start. Those who believe, will not care about any reasoning, because they are starting with a whole set of assumption. Those who don't, do not have such shackle, but have long seen the inherent problem and need no convincing.

That has been the status quo for a long time and will stay.
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:54 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This is like pulling teeth.

The question is how can man turn out to be less than perfect when God made him perfect?

And before you come back with the "He gave us free will" line ........ if our judgement was poor when using our free will, then our ability to judge was not perfect, so the hardware we were using to make the judgment was not perfect. Got it?
I don't remember saying anything about people being "perfect." Perhaps this will shed light on the issue:

Quote:
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Timothy 1:15-17
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:57 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
No. This is circular because you use the bible to justify the bible. In other word you have NO outside source. That is why this is circular and you cannot justify the origin of that book. This is the point people are more less trying to tell you.
Ah, well you see, the question asked about God "of the Bible."

I was neither asked to justify the Book nor was it suggested that I could nor should look outside the Bible.

Words mean things.
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Old 8th February 2017, 03:04 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Pretty much. I mean this thread was doomed from the start. Those who believe, will not care about any reasoning, because they are starting with a whole set of assumption. Those who don't, do not have such shackle, but have long seen the inherent problem and need no convincing.

That has been the status quo for a long time and will stay.
Well certainly there was an assumption built into the OP, that God and Satan are capable of being characterized as bad or good.

It was upon this assumption upon which the discussion was intended to flow.

Not every thread has to be "there is No God" "the Bible is Fiction" etc... which unfortunately these threads tend to degenerate into, particularly with certain posters who so proselytize in virtually. every. thread. How boring.
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Old 8th February 2017, 03:08 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well the very next line says that if you follow Him, he will benefit His people to a 1000 generations. I think it is quite a clear admonition to choose well, to choose God because your decisions can have ripple effects.

Now, do not worry about the innocent generations, for God created a New covenant with his believers:

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Hi The Big Dog,

Thanks for the reply. Are you saying that it is moral for God to punish the great grand children of idolaters (who themselves are not be idolaters) for the sins of their fathers? If so do you feel that it would be moral for me to be mad at the neighbor's grand kids for things that the neighbor did? Why or why not?
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Old 8th February 2017, 03:21 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Hi The Big Dog,

Thanks for the reply. Are you saying that it is moral for God to punish the great grand children of idolaters (who themselves are not be idolaters) for the sins of their fathers? If so do you feel that it would be moral for me to be mad at the neighbor's grand kids for things that the neighbor did? Why or why not?
No I am not saying that God even did so, rather it was an admonition to the idolators that their acts can have good or bad consequence that ripple through time.

Nevertheless:

Quote:
There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell. 29 But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the Lord your God and obey him. 31 For the Lord your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.
Deut 4 28-31
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Old 8th February 2017, 03:44 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No I am not saying that God even did so, rather it was an admonition to the idolators that their acts can have good or bad consequence that ripple through time.

Nevertheless:



Deut 4 28-31
Since you bring it up, are you OK with Deut 4:2?
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Old 8th February 2017, 03:47 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Since you bring it up, are you OK with Deut 4:2?
I do not remember bringing up Deut 4:2 at all....

refresh my recollection, por favor
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Old 8th February 2017, 03:58 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I don't remember saying anything about people being "perfect." Perhaps this will shed light on the issue:



Timothy 1:15-17
True enough you did not say people were made perfect, but I have heard this from the faithful so many times, I thought it a universal belief among you.

The following words from a like minded heathen such as myself tackles the issue comprehensively:


Quote:
If Adam and Eve were perfect, why did they choose to sin?

Adam and Eve, when they were created in the Garden of Eden, were without sin. Because of that, they were perfect and flawless.
However, with that theology in mind, I'm running up against a wall: Why, if Adam and Eve were perfect, did they choose to sin?

Were they not perfect?

If we presume that they weren't perfect, then we have to see that God created them with the imperfection. If God created them as imperfect, would that mean that by creating us this way he caused us to sin?
(Being omniscient, he knew full well that if he created us to sin then we would sin. Therefore wouldn't his act of creation be the cause of the sin?) Finally, if he created us to sin, can God be held accountable for this sin?

Were they perfect?

Or, rather, did God create them as perfect and they chose imperfection? If Adam and Eve chose imperfection, how could they be considered perfect?

My question, in summary

Are there any doctrines that speak to the perfection or imperfection of Adam and Eve (particularly in regards to why they chose to sin)?
If the doctrine claims Adam and Eve were perfect, how do they reconcile this with them choosing imperfection (since that would indicate they were imperfect from creation)?
If the doctrine claims that Adam and Eve were imperfect, how do they reconcile this with the idea that God created imperfect beings? Furthermore, does that doctrine hold that God is partially responsible for the sins that Adam and Eve committed since he knew that they would commit the sin and chose to create them anyways?
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Old 8th February 2017, 04:02 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh gosh golly no, I am really not at all claiming that I don't understand how that answer is circular.

Now there may be several reasons for that, of course, beside the obvious, including that you misread the actual question.

Why don't y'all go back and take a long hard look at it and "circle" back when you have cottoned to the reason.
Your post #97 looked a lot like a dodge to the charge that your answer was circular, but I suppose one can read it as simply accepting that it must be so. Your statements seem an awfully complicated way of saying you have faith.

In any case, though, I don't see much of an argument other than that of faith, which does little beyond saying that what's in the Bible is true because it's in the Bible.
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Old 8th February 2017, 04:02 PM   #194
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Oh, just to keep things on track, the previous post of mine clearly shows that the God of Abraham was either bad or inept.
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Old 8th February 2017, 04:04 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No I am not saying that God even did so, rather it was an admonition to the idolators that their acts can have good or bad consequence that ripple through time.

Nevertheless:



Deut 4 28-31
Ok, but if worshiping idols has “consequences that ripple through time”, isn’t it God that is causing these consequences, and therefor God is punishing people for their idolatry? Doesn’t the verse clearly state that God will punish the children of idolaters, to the fourth generation?

That is what the verse says.

If God is the one who is punishing people, isn't He then morally culpable for his actions?

The reasoning seems very straightforward to me. If His actions are moral because of the righteousness of them, and not because of the righteousness of his position, and if he punishes the great grandchildren for the sins of their fathers’ fathers’ fathers, should we not emulate Him?
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Old 8th February 2017, 04:04 PM   #196
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ah, well you see, the question asked about God "of the Bible."

I was neither asked to justify the Book nor was it suggested that I could nor should look outside the Bible.

Words mean things.
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Your post #97 looked a lot like a dodge to the charge that your answer was circular, but I suppose one can read it as simply accepting that it must be so. Your statements seem an awfully complicated way of saying you have faith.

In any case, though, I don't see much of an argument other than that of faith, which does little beyond saying that what's in the Bible is true because it's in the Bible.
asked and answered
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Old 8th February 2017, 04:08 PM   #197
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Ok, but if worshiping idols has “consequences that ripple through time”, isn’t it God that is causing these consequences, and therefor God is punishing people for their idolatry? Doesn’t the verse clearly state that God will punish the children of idolaters, to the fourth generation?

That is what the verse says.

If God is the one who is punishing people, isn't He then morally culpable for his actions?

The reasoning seems very straightforward to me. If His actions are moral because of the righteousness of them, and not because of the righteousness of his position, and if he punishes the great grandchildren for the sins of their fathers’ fathers’ fathers, should we not emulate Him?
Well what God was saying there was if Israel breaks their Covenant this would impact not only them, but their children and children's children. Should not be so unusual, in fact it is a damn good reason not to drink and drive (or commit myriad other criminal acts)
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Old 8th February 2017, 05:37 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
....[...]

Virtually no one today believes that owning people as property is morally right or that we should stone someone for working on the Sabbath or taking the Lord's name in vain.
Wow - your parochialism is showing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...and-blasphemy/
tho' more generally
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedo...ion_by_country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law

My guesstimate is that half the population of the planet at least countenance all three of these obnoxious institutions. Ppl in the West have been threatened and killed for the blasphemy of depicting Mohammed alone. Certainly your claim fails.
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Old 8th February 2017, 05:55 PM   #199
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I find it sad that the Big Dog doesn't address the questions of the thread but I can't say I'm surprised because in my experience devout Christians don't and won't address the intrinsic paradox of the Old and New Testament teachings. They insist that God is moral but they won't address God's clear shortcomings.

There is no way they believe the concept of love me, praise me, be my slave or I will kill you is moral. But to do so would be to say God is not moral and they cannot and will not do that.

God is perfect despite screw up after screw up and bloodthirsty vengeance. Sure, it seems as if the hippie Jesus character seems like a good guy, but I was always taught that Jesus was God. The same God who ordered slaughter after slaughter for thousands of years. I was also taught that God is unchanging.

So someone please tell me why they believe God is good.
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Old 8th February 2017, 05:56 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by stevea View Post
Wow - your parochialism is showing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...and-blasphemy/
tho' more generally
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedo...ion_by_country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law

My guesstimate is that half the population of the planet at least countenance all three of these obnoxious institutions. Ppl in the West have been threatened and killed for the blasphemy of depicting Mohammed alone. Certainly your claim fails.
Fair enough. Few Christians then.
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