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Old 8th February 2017, 06:17 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well what God was saying there was if Israel breaks their Covenant this would impact not only them, but their children and children's children. Should not be so unusual, in fact it is a damn good reason not to drink and drive (or commit myriad other criminal acts)
Hi Big Dog,

I agree, the verse says clearly that God will punish not only the idolaters, but as the active agent, “visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and on the third and fourth generations of those who hate me”, God makes it clear that by his standard it is just fine for him to punish people for what their great great grand parents did.

Since you brought it up, should we take away the drivers licenses of people whose parents have been convicted of driving under the influence, to the fourth generation? I think that it would follow that crack babies should be incarcerated for the sins of their mothers, and the children and grandchildren of murders should also be executed (or incarcerated for life I suppose in countries that do not have the death penalty).
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Old 8th February 2017, 06:40 PM   #202
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Quote:
As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”
Seems pretty clear to me. At the baptism God comes down to earth and then someone else still up in heaven claims paternity of Jesus.
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Old 8th February 2017, 07:09 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Hi Big Dog,

I agree, the verse says clearly that God will punish not only the idolaters, but as the active agent, “visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and on the third and fourth generations of those who hate me”, God makes it clear that by his standard it is just fine for him to punish people for what their great great grand parents did.

Since you brought it up, should we take away the drivers licenses of people whose parents have been convicted of driving under the influence, to the fourth generation? I think that it would follow that crack babies should be incarcerated for the sins of their mothers, and the children and grandchildren of murders should also be executed (or incarcerated for life I suppose in countries that do not have the death penalty).
I am CERTAIN that you are not following my comments. First I have already explained that the quote is a reminder about the repercussions of ones acts.

I have also explained that God has established a new Covenant through the sacrifice of his only begotten son and therefore absolved the human race of original sin, and therefore based on the New Covenant the hypotheticals you cite have been outdated for 2000 years.

Spend some time with Jesus!
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Old 8th February 2017, 07:30 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I am CERTAIN that you are not following my comments. First I have already explained that the quote is a reminder about the repercussions of ones acts.

I on the other hand am certain you are not following what Tormac is saying. Here is the wording from the good old James Version of the Bible:

Quote:
You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Not much ambiguity in those words is there. God is doing the punishing.
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Old 8th February 2017, 07:37 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
asked and answered
Are we reading the same thread? You keep telling me to reread the first post. I suggest you do the same, because I certainly don't see what you seem to.
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Old 8th February 2017, 07:39 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Loading a question is the exact opposite of skepticism.

Nevertheless I will go ahead and once again answer the question that i have already answered:

I primarily relied upon the revealed mysteries of God's love for us through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
Total load of fecal matter.
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Old 8th February 2017, 07:41 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Oh, Dear.

Still misusing the term, "facts".

Huh.
On this topic at a minimum!!!!!
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Old 8th February 2017, 07:42 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I on the other hand am certain you are not following what Tormac is saying. Here is the wording from the good old James Version of the Bible:

Not much ambiguity in those words is there. God is doing the punishing.
Even less in the Hebrew: פקד עון; "punishing the perversion" (unto the third & fourth &ct.)...
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Old 8th February 2017, 08:25 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I am CERTAIN that you are not following my comments. First I have already explained that the quote is a reminder about the repercussions of ones acts.

I have also explained that God has established a new Covenant through the sacrifice of his only begotten son and therefore absolved the human race of original sin, and therefore based on the New Covenant the hypotheticals you cite have been outdated for 2000 years.

Spend some time with Jesus!
Are you saying that God has changed? That he isn't the angry jealous God he was throughout the Old Testament and in Revelations? I was taught God is unchanging. Pretty sure that's in Scripture.

Nevertheless, is God good when he murders almost all of humanity including babies and children and the wildlife? I keep asking the same question. How did you determine that God is good when he commits all these atrocities?


How about Hell? Do touch think God is good with people being tortured forever for just not believing when we're presented no credible evidence? Do you think God is good when he endorses slavery in both the Old and New Testament?
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Old 8th February 2017, 08:46 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Are we reading the same thread? You keep telling me to reread the first post. I suggest you do the same, because I certainly don't see what you seem to.
The answer is literally quoted in the same post you just replied to.

God of the bible. Of the bible, read the actual question.

Jaysus.
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:09 PM   #211
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:30 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I do not remember bringing up Deut 4:2 at all....

refresh my recollection, por favor
It is a book called Deuteronomy. It is in your bible. Have you not read your holy book?
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Old 8th February 2017, 09:58 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It is a book called Deuteronomy. It is in your bible. Have you not read your holy book?
Ahem, I repeat myself. I do not recall bring up that line as you suggested.

Evidence?
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Old 8th February 2017, 10:40 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ahem, I repeat myself. I do not recall bring up that line as you suggested.

Evidence?
Here you go: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=deut+4%3A2

Anyway guys, you're all approaching this from entirely the wrong direction. God is good axiomatically and therefore whatever God does in the Bible is also good. God doesn't need any justification or reason to be good - God is good a priori.

Greater minds than hours have wrestled with this, and this is the best that they have been able to come up with. It's not remotely surprising to me that TBD can't do any better than the greatest theological minds on the planet.
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Old 8th February 2017, 10:49 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Here you go: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=deut+4%3A2

Anyway guys, you're all approaching this from entirely the wrong direction. God is good axiomatically and therefore whatever God does in the Bible is also good. God doesn't need any justification or reason to be good - God is good a priori.

Greater minds than hours have wrestled with this, and this is the best that they have been able to come up with. It's not remotely surprising to me that TBD can't do any better than the greatest theological minds on the planet.

I would be reluctant to concede that the "greatest theological minds on the planet" have a greater mind than mine.
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Old 8th February 2017, 10:52 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ahem, I repeat myself. I do not recall bring up that line as you suggested.

Evidence?
I didn't suggest any such thing, you simply made that up. As regards deuteronomy, is it your suggestion that it is OK to cherry pick only those verses that you like? Does not the bible come en mass? Or can anyone pick and chose whichever verses they prefer? Which is it? All of it, some of it or none of it?

It's your book. Pick.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:00 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I would be reluctant to concede that the "greatest theological minds on the planet" have a greater mind than mine.
On the subject of theology, they do.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:02 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
On the subject of theology, they do.
Is theology even a subject?
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:09 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
On the subject of theology, they do.
Oh, so they have great minds when they are trying to interpret some crap that was written a thousand years ago, but not so great in other areas then?

I will gladly admit that good scientific minds leave me in awe but theological ones? No way.
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Old 8th February 2017, 11:12 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Is theology even a subject?

A subject about nothing.
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Old 9th February 2017, 03:55 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Here you go: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=deut+4%3A2

Anyway guys, you're all approaching this from entirely the wrong direction. God is good axiomatically and therefore whatever God does in the Bible is also good. God doesn't need any justification or reason to be good - God is good a priori.

Greater minds than hours have wrestled with this, and this is the best that they have been able to come up with. It's not remotely surprising to me that TBD can't do any better than the greatest theological minds on the planet.
Really? So you think slavery is good? You think infanticide is good? and punishing the great great grandchildren for the sins of their great great grandparents? So, like Abraham, if you believed that God told you to kill and rape your son and daughter you would necessarily have to do it, wouldn't you? Don't say God wouldn't do that because he did order the killing and raping of children.

The problem with your position is that it isn't moral. It's just following orders.
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Old 9th February 2017, 05:16 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? So you think slavery is good? You think infanticide is good? and punishing the great great grandchildren for the sins of their great great grandparents? So, like Abraham, if you believed that God told you to kill and rape your son and daughter you would necessarily have to do it, wouldn't you? Don't say God wouldn't do that because he did order the killing and raping of children.

The problem with your position is that it isn't moral. It's just following orders.
You can ask the defendants at Nuremberg and Tokyo how well that works.
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:09 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I am CERTAIN that you are not following my comments. First I have already explained that the quote is a reminder about the repercussions of ones acts.

I have also explained that God has established a new Covenant through the sacrifice of his only begotten son and therefore absolved the human race of original sin, and therefore based on the New Covenant the hypotheticals you cite have been outdated for 2000 years.

Spend some time with Jesus!
This stupid crap again.

I do wish that Jesus lovers would actually read the Bible as opposed to constantly inventing their own facts about the Bible.

Therefore, I will give 'The Big Dog' $20.00 if he can find me any quote in the Bible where God says that Jesus is his son.
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:09 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No I am not saying that God even did so, rather it was an admonition to the idolators that their acts can have good or bad consequence that ripple through time.

Nevertheless:

Quote:
There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell. 29 But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the Lord your God and obey him. 31 For the Lord your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.
Deut 4 28-31
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Since you bring it up, are you OK with Deut 4:2?
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I do not remember bringing up Deut 4:2 at all....

refresh my recollection, por favor
This appears to me to be an intentional misunderstanding of the word "it", in order to derail the discussion.

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Old 9th February 2017, 07:15 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Since you bring it up, are you OK with Deut 4:2?
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I didn't suggest any such thing, you simply made that up. As regards deuteronomy, is it your suggestion that it is OK to cherry pick only those verses that you like? Does not the bible come en mass? Or can anyone pick and chose whichever verses they prefer? Which is it? All of it, some of it or none of it?

It's your book. Pick.
As I have said repeatedly I did not "bring it up."

It would appear that it is you that are cherry picking.
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:18 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? So you think slavery is good? You think infanticide is good? and punishing the great great grandchildren for the sins of their great great grandparents? So, like Abraham, if you believed that God told you to kill and rape your son and daughter you would necessarily have to do it, wouldn't you? Don't say God wouldn't do that because he did order the killing and raping of children.

The problem with your position is that it isn't moral. It's just following orders.
Slight misunderstanding, perhaps. I believe arthwollipot is not condoning the bible, but underlining the odd illogical baggage that goes on before, during and after it.
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:20 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
This appears to me to be an intentional misunderstanding of the word "it", in order to derail the discussion.


I did not bring up Deuteronomy in the first place either.

I get it, it is my fault that my correspondents are clear as *********** mud.

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Old 9th February 2017, 07:22 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
This stupid crap again.

I do wish that Jesus lovers would actually read the Bible as opposed to constantly inventing their own facts about the Bible.

Therefore, I will give 'The Big Dog' $20.00 if he can find me any quote in the Bible where God says that Jesus is his son.
I'll take the money.

Luke 9:35: A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him."

Who's voice was it do you think?
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:40 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I'll take the money.

Luke 9:35: A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him."

Who's voice was it do you think?
I also posted the verses following jesus baptism. Remarkably a "skeptic" told me in response to think for myself.

He can donate that 20 bucks to catholic charities or the salvation army.
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:49 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I'll take the money.

Luke 9:35: A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him."

Who's voice was it do you think?
Read your own citation and you will have your answer.

The text clearly says who's voice it is, it was a voice from a cloud.

No money for you!
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:51 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I also posted the verses following jesus baptism. Remarkably a "skeptic" told me in response to think for myself.

He can donate that 20 bucks to catholic charities or the salvation army.
Again. Another failed reading of a typical Christian who likes to say that he reads the Bible but who does not even read his own fairy book.

The text clearly says who's voice it is, it was a voice from a cloud.

So unless you are now claiming that God is a cloud, then there is no money for you either.
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:52 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Read your own citation and you will have your answer.

The text clearly says who's voice it is, it was a voice from a cloud.

No money for you!
These new fangled clouds are awesome. I keep pictures and all sorts of things in them.

Not sure mine talks to me though.
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:57 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Is theology even a subject?
"...a subject without an object..." -Dan Barker
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:00 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I'll take the money.

Luke 9:35: A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him."

Who's voice was it do you think?
[apologetics mode: ON] Ah, but the text (sep. in the original) does not identify the voice as 'god's'...[apologetics mode: OFF]

ETA: of course, ninja-ed by Crossbow...
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:23 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
These new fangled clouds are awesome. I keep pictures and all sorts of things in them.

Not sure mine talks to me though.
Know any Gods that talk to you either?
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:29 AM   #236
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No surprise,

Quote:
As soon as Jesus came up out of the water, he saw the heavens breaking open and the Spirit descending on Him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
mark 1:11

Quote:
As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”
Matt 3:17


2 Peter 1:17:

Quote:
For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
For additional citations see:

https://www.openbible.info/labs/cros...2+Peter+1%3A17

He's got the whole world, in his hand.....
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:33 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I'll take the money.

Luke 9:35: A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him."

Who's voice was it do you think?
That would be the voices in your head.
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:34 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No surprise,



mark 1:11



Matt 3:17


2 Peter 1:17:



For additional citations see:

https://www.openbible.info/labs/cros...2+Peter+1%3A17

He's got the whole world, in his hand.....
You have failed again to read your own fairy book.

It does not say in any of those citations that God said that Jesus is his son.
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:36 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post


I did not bring up Deuteronomy in the first place either.

I get it, it is my fault that my correspondents are clear as *********** mud.

Are you now claiming that this post was not yours?

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Hi The Big Dog,

Thanks for the reply. Are you saying that it is moral for God to punish the great grand children of idolaters (who themselves are not be idolaters) for the sins of their fathers? If so do you feel that it would be moral for me to be mad at the neighbor's grand kids for things that the neighbor did? Why or why not?
No I am not saying that God even did so, rather it was an admonition to the idolators that their acts can have good or bad consequence that ripple through time.

Nevertheless:

Quote:
There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell. 29 But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the Lord your God and obey him. 31 For the Lord your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your ancestors, which he confirmed to them by oath.
Deut 4 28-31
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:39 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Tormac View Post
Thanks for the reply The Big Dog, I know you're replying to several people at once.

I was curious how you would say that Deuteronomy 5:9 jived with the notion of inherent goodness in God's statements.

Deuteronomy 5:9 (In the New American Standard version, in relation to making a graven image) "You shall not worship or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, and a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

Now to me it seems immoral for someone to blame a grandchild of a wrongdoing that someone's grandfather did. Here God clearly says that He will punish even to the fourth generation of people their idol worship. I think is wrong to blame younger generations for the sins of their grandfathers.

Would you say that it is correct to blame otherwise innocent people for misdeeds of their grandfathers and great grandfathers? Is God making a confession of having an anger management problem here? Or am I taking this out of context, and misunderstanding the situation?
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Are you now claiming that this post was not yours?
Are you now saying that you are incapable of reading the preceding posts including the post that brought up Deuteronomy in the first place??

I have quoted it for you.

Cripes....
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