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Old 9th February 2017, 08:41 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The fact that we sin.

You speak for yourself. I'm sin-free. Born that way. Been that way ever since.
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:44 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is precisely what Satan would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity is the height of creation, <snipped mindless regurgitation of transparently dogmatic propaganda>

Oh please, the assessment Giordano made is right there in the Bible, an inescapable conclusion drawn from reading what your God says about himself, and about the adversary that the creator created. Your highlighted phrase above is what God would have you believe, in fact. We atheists know that evolution is not a one way street, and humanity is not "the height of creation" as you put it, but merely the current phase of an ongoing process subject to further modification as circumstances dictate, for better or worse.

Those of us who are not brainwashed into your knee-jerk regurgitation of church spin of the bible's message, and have recognised that science is the true guide to avoiding that kind of superstitious self-delusion, and are thankfully free of belief in any gods, and free of fear of your atrocious lord, have the clarity of vision to see that evolution is the factual mechanism for the development of all the life we see around us, do not think that humanity is any kind of perfected creature, let alone the most important thing in the universe, as your bible teaches you.

Your mind is so occluded by propaganda smeared on your brain by your church that you can't even read the bible and see what it actually tells you! Truly astonishing. And rather pitiful, I have to say.
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:45 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
You have failed again to read your own fairy book.

It does not say in any of those citations that God said that Jesus is his son.
false. The quote from Peter clearly said that it was the voice of God.

Of course, at no time did I believe that you had any genuine intention of discussing this in a reasonable manner, and that your "offer" was always going to be subject to the clever "gotcha" that you are the Judge.

Accordingly, I am in the process of making a donation of $20 to the Pro-life Action League in honor of this thread.

thanks so much!
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:47 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by asydhouse View Post
<snipped mindless regurgitation of transparently dogmatic propaganda>
'k.



What is particularly chilling about this thread is that the claim in question begins "Ay (sic) [An] objective analysis even of the bible" and when I perform that actual objective analysis of the Bible, so-called '"skeptics" reject it with nonsense like "mindless regurgitation of transparently dogmatic propaganda." It is as if they are incapable of performing an objective analysis of the Bible.

A real eye opener to me and most likely others.
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:58 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post


I did not bring up Deuteronomy in the first place either.

I get it, it is my fault that my correspondents are clear as *********** mud.

“Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.” (Ephesians 5:4)

“But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.” (Colossians 3:8)
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:58 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
false. The quote from Peter clearly said that it was the voice of God.

Of course, at no time did I believe that you had any genuine intention of discussing this in a reasonable manner, and that your "offer" was always going to be subject to the clever "gotcha" that you are the Judge.

Accordingly, I am in the process of making a donation of $20 to the Pro-life Action League in honor of this thread.

thanks so much!
Do yourself a favor and read your own fairy book. Just because you are unable to read it that does not mean that everyone else is as ignorant of the subject as you are.

Your own citation clearly says that the voice in question was the product of "Majestic Glory" as opposed to saying that it was God that did the speaking.

So go ahead and donate your money to whomever you like.
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:04 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
'k.



What is particularly chilling about this thread is that the claim in question begins "Ay (sic) [An] objective analysis even of the bible" and when I perform that actual objective analysis of the Bible, so-called '"skeptics" reject it with nonsense like "mindless regurgitation of transparently dogmatic propaganda." It is as if they are incapable of performing an objective analysis of the Bible.

A real eye opener to me and most likely others.
I think you are being objective Big Dog. But I do believe that you are practicing sophistry and not addressing the topic of the thread.

The question wasn't about what the bible says really. It's about how we determine that God is good and how we determine that Satan is bad? I've pointed out atrocities that God commits throughout the book and even ones that God has promised to commit in the future. These acts do not seem moral to me.

Why do you think they are moral?
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:07 AM   #248
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Quote:
For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
One would have to be deliberately obtuse to claim that the statement was not "from" God the Father "borne by" the Majestic Glory, of course.

Oh well, there was never a possibility that there was going to be a payment of $20. talk about a "fairy tale."

Sad.
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:17 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
One would have to be deliberately obtuse to claim that the statement was not "from" God the Father "borne by" the Majestic Glory, of course.

Oh well, there was never a possibility that there was going to be a payment of $20. talk about a "fairy tale."

Sad.
Well if you are such a genius who is so very sure as to what your fairy book means, then that is great.

So I suppose that you also honor the Holy Ghost?
After all, Jesus said that denying the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin.

And that you only eat Kosher food.
Among other things, that means no bacon, ham, and other such food for you.

And that you believe that God created the entire universe by creating the Earth first.
Which is something we know to be quite impossible.

That there was a great flood which Noah and his family survived via the gopherwood ark.
Which we also know to be quite impossible.

And on, and on on, and on.

So good luck to you following your fairy book which you like to say that you know so very much about.
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:22 AM   #250
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One does not have to be a genius to know that there was no chance of seeing that 20 bucks despite the crystal clear language of the quote from Peter above.
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:26 AM   #251
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Gotta agree with TBD here. Life is strange.
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:28 AM   #252
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I don't suppose it should be a surprise here that all sides seem to be engaging in needless sophistry.

I would have thought it reasonably clear, given the sort of thing the Bible is, that when you read of a voice from the clouds, or a voice from the heavens, one can assume the voice comes from God, as such a god is presumed by so much Biblical text. To nitpick about that is to presume that the Bible must be relentlessly literal in every word, which it clearly is not.

At the same time, we have the nitpicking theist who claims the Bible as authority, but will not address contradictions in the Bible because he himself did not bring up specific verses cited.

We see this often in many instances, where an argument is presented, and it is rejected on the basis of the most pettifoggingly literal technicalities. Synonyms and generalities are fine when you make a statement, but unacceptable when you defend it.

Can a reasonable reader of the Bible really dispute that when the writers reference the voice from the whirlwind, the heavens or the clouds, it is not meant to be that of God?

Can a reasonable person of faith claim the Bible as unquestionable authority and pretend that there are no contradictions in it or that his interpretation is not guided by teachers who preceded him?
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:34 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
One does not have to be a genius to know that there was no chance of seeing that 20 bucks despite the crystal clear language of the quote from Peter above.
I see. When you do it, it's "making fine distinctions"--when others do it, it's "quibbling", or "cheating".

(BTW: check the original source; further, look up the difference between an "implication" and a "statement"...)
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:36 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
One does not have to be a genius to know that there was no chance of seeing that 20 bucks despite the crystal clear language of the quote from Peter above.
A good example of typical Christian willful ignorance.

At no point in your own fairy book does God say that Jesus is his son.
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:38 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You speak for yourself. I'm sin-free. Born that way. Been that way ever since.
Me too. Sin is a religious concept. If you have no religion, sin doesn't exist.

To answer the OP -- just in case this hasn't been brought up yet -- Satan is a creation of the biblical writers, i.e., Hebrew priests, and was named after Ha-Satan, "the accuser." He was created (in literature) for the purpose of challenging God. He didn't become the opposition, he was the opposition.

Religious imagination knows no bounds.
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:39 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post

At the same time, we have the nitpicking theist who claims the Bible as authority, but will not address contradictions in the Bible because he himself did not bring up specific verses cited.
I don't think that pointing out the blatantly false claim that I brought up a verse is nitpicking.

Perhaps your complaint should have been with the original author and his subsequent refusal to acknowledge the fact that his post was both wrong and unclear.

Now what alleged contradiction are you referring to?
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:43 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
The text clearly says who's voice it is, it was a voice from a cloud.
I'm on the atheist side, here, but this really sucks.

This thread has decedent into simple bickering.

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Old 9th February 2017, 10:00 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I don't think that pointing out the blatantly false claim that I brought up a verse is nitpicking.

Perhaps your complaint should have been with the original author and his subsequent refusal to acknowledge the fact that his post was both wrong and unclear.

Now what alleged contradiction are you referring to?
If you would even spend 10% of your time actually reading your fairy book that that you spend bitching and complaining about Hillary Clinton, then you would have your answer.
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Old 9th February 2017, 10:11 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
Me too. Sin is a religious concept. If you have no religion, sin doesn't exist.

To answer the OP -- just in case this hasn't been brought up yet -- Satan is a creation of the biblical writers, i.e., Hebrew priests, and was named after Ha-Satan, "the accuser." He was created (in literature) for the purpose of challenging God. He didn't become the opposition, he was the opposition.

Religious imagination knows no bounds.
I agree. That said, the original question was really about morality.

How do we determine that God is good and alternatively that the devil is bad? I'm of the belief that if you believe whatever the bible says is good just because the bible says it it is, you are not actually moral, you're an automaton. You're simply NOT acting as a moral agent.

I think it is an interesting paradox. There really is very little in scriptures about who the devil is other than he is trying to get man to turn away from God. Other then screwing with Job with God's cooperation there isn't much bad written about Satan. In contrast God makes Hannibal Lecter and Ted Bundy seem like good guys.
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Old 9th February 2017, 10:16 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I am CERTAIN that you are not following my comments. First I have already explained that the quote is a reminder about the repercussions of ones acts.

I have also explained that God has established a new Covenant through the sacrifice of his only begotten son and therefore absolved the human race of original sin, and therefore based on the New Covenant the hypotheticals you cite have been outdated for 2000 years.

Spend some time with Jesus!
Hi Big Dog,

Sorry, that it took me a while to get back to you. I understand about the new Covenant with Jesus, and the new path to salvation through him. I am following you with that.

I was hoping to limit the conversation to just a particular verse and situation concerning what the Bible says God said, in the light of the OP and the topic of discussion. I really did not want to talk about the correct path to salvation, as it is out of the scope of the topic for this thread, and honestly, mostly a matter of faith.

I think I was not wording what I was asking well. Let me try again, if you want to continue this discussion. In light of the topic of this thread, is it fair to judge the morality of God by the same standard that we judge the morality of other humans? Or does God sit above us and is beyond our moral judgment?
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Old 9th February 2017, 10:18 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I don't suppose it should be a surprise here that all sides seem to be engaging in needless sophistry.

I would have thought it reasonably clear, given the sort of thing the Bible is, that when you read of a voice from the clouds, or a voice from the heavens, one can assume the voice comes from God, as such a god is presumed by so much Biblical text. To nitpick about that is to presume that the Bible must be relentlessly literal in every word, which it clearly is not.

I generally agree, but in the context of the thread topic, I think it's reasonable enough to ask whether or not a voice from a cloud or the sky ("heavens," not the metaphysical "heaven") could instead be Satan, and if not, how we know this.
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Old 9th February 2017, 10:24 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
I'm on the atheist side, here, but this really sucks.

This thread has decedent into simple bickering.
I agree. The question is where in the bible does God say Jesus is his son. The statement in Luke is clearly referring to the voice of God.

Of course, it is not the voice of God, and no, Jesus, to the extent he existed was not the son of any god, but that is irrelevant. It's about what the author wrote. There is no basis for the claim that the author of Luke was not suggesting nor implying that the voice was from God.
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Old 9th February 2017, 10:26 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Quoting TBD: "The fact that we sin."
Edited by Agatha:  edited
is this his response to my question, "What is the basis for the claim that we have free will?"?

I sure hope not, because, wow, it is really bad if that is what it is meant to be.

Edited by Agatha:  Do not discuss your ignore list
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Old 9th February 2017, 10:28 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Edited by Agatha:  edited
is this his response to my question, "What is the basis for the claim that we have free will?"?

I sure hope not, because, wow, it is really bad if that is what it is meant to be.
I am wondering, is this supposed to be his response to my response to his question, "What is the basis for the claim that we have free will?"?

I sure hope not, because, wow, it is really bad if that is what it is meant to be.

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Old 9th February 2017, 10:38 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I don't think that pointing out the blatantly false claim that I brought up a verse is nitpicking.

Perhaps your complaint should have been with the original author and his subsequent refusal to acknowledge the fact that his post was both wrong and unclear.

Now what alleged contradiction are you referring to?
I believe there was a verse in Leviticus that you did not comment on because you had not brought it up yourself. But there you go again. Are you saying there are no contradictions?
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Old 9th February 2017, 10:38 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I agree. The question is where in the bible does God say Jesus is his son. The statement in Luke is clearly referring to the voice of God.

Of course, it is not the voice of God, and no, Jesus, to the extent he existed was not the son of any god, but that is irrelevant. It's about what the author wrote. There is no basis for the claim that the author of Luke was not suggesting nor implying that the voice was from God.
While I don't believe it was God as I don't believe God exists. That said in the context of the book I think it's silly to suggest that Jesus is not the son of the character God in the story.
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Old 9th February 2017, 10:48 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I believe there was a verse in Leviticus that you did not comment on because you had not brought it up yourself. But there you go again. Are you saying there are no contradictions?
Leviticus? I never mentioned Leviticus at all.

Listen, if you want me to address a contradiction that falls within the scope of thread, simply lay it out.

I am certain that anti-theists can find what they believe to be contradictions, but do you really think it is reasonable that I guess what you are trying to get at?

Well it is not, so if you want to discuss something you think is a contradiction make your case.
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Old 9th February 2017, 10:51 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I generally agree, but in the context of the thread topic, I think it's reasonable enough to ask whether or not a voice from a cloud or the sky ("heavens," not the metaphysical "heaven") could instead be Satan, and if not, how we know this.
I really don't think that's worth arguing about. Acknowledging contradictions, ambiguities, poor translations, and the (occasional if debatable) progress of culture and morals since the writing of the Scriptures, I think it pretty silly to argue that the Bible does not take God's side, and intend, whatever its faults of implementation, to portray God as the good guy and the devil/satan/tempter/etc as the bad guy. That the devil can cite scripture to his own purpose does not make it the scripture's purpose.

I think if you're going to dismiss the Bible as the fictional document of a dubious religion, that's fine, but that kind of short circuits line by line exegesis. To do that is cherry picking just as surely as it is when theists skip over the parts they don't like. I'm all for cherry picking. It's how you get the tastiest cherries. But you need to acknowledge you're doing it.
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Old 9th February 2017, 11:00 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I really don't think that's worth arguing about. Acknowledging contradictions, ambiguities, poor translations, and the (occasional if debatable) progress of culture and morals since the writing of the Scriptures, I think it pretty silly to argue that the Bible does not take God's side, and intend, whatever its faults of implementation, to portray God as the good guy and the devil/satan/tempter/etc as the bad guy. That the devil can cite scripture to his own purpose does not make it the scripture's purpose.

I think if you're going to dismiss the Bible as the fictional document of a dubious religion, that's fine, but that kind of short circuits line by line exegesis. To do that is cherry picking just as surely as it is when theists skip over the parts they don't like. I'm all for cherry picking. It's how you get the tastiest cherries. But you need to acknowledge you're doing it.
I think it is silly to use the Bible for any of this purpose. As I said yesterday, I know that if I were Satan, the first thing I would do is to convince everyone I was God.

Even if it were divinely inspired, you can't trust the Bible to be telling you anything legit. How do you know the Bible isn't inspired by a powerful deceiver?
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Old 9th February 2017, 11:02 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I really don't think that's worth arguing about. Acknowledging contradictions, ambiguities, poor translations, and the (occasional if debatable) progress of culture and morals since the writing of the Scriptures, I think it pretty silly to argue that the Bible does not take God's side, and intend, whatever its faults of implementation, to portray God as the good guy and the devil/satan/tempter/etc as the bad guy. That the devil can cite scripture to his own purpose does not make it the scripture's purpose.

I think if you're going to dismiss the Bible as the fictional document of a dubious religion, that's fine, but that kind of short circuits line by line exegesis. To do that is cherry picking just as surely as it is when theists skip over the parts they don't like. I'm all for cherry picking. It's how you get the tastiest cherries. But you need to acknowledge you're doing it.
It's a little more than cherry picking. We're really talking about the roots of the tree.
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Old 9th February 2017, 11:19 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Even if it were divinely inspired, you can't trust the Bible to be telling you anything legit. How do you know the Bible isn't inspired by a powerful deceiver?
Jesus's life, death and resurrection obviously.
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Old 9th February 2017, 11:35 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Jesus's life, death and resurrection obviously.
Just more typical Christian nonsense.

They often profess to have incredible reverence for their entire fairy book since it is the product of their God and/or Jesus while at the same time being willfully ignorant and/or disdainful of large sections of this same fairy book since it contains data that they cannot possibly believe or understand.

And yet, they will always profess to have so much reverence for their fairy book since it is the product of their God and/or Jesus even though they have such little understanding of their fairy book.

It is times like this that I wish there were a God just to show them the error of their ways.
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Old 9th February 2017, 11:38 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
God didn't sacrifice his son at all. Jebus was merely temporarily inconvenienced for a weekend.
Yes, but for god a single day is like a thousand years, right? So that is like 2500 years of solitude . . .
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Old 9th February 2017, 11:45 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Jesus's life, death and resurrection obviously.
That doesn't answer the question. What a surprise. Not.
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Old 9th February 2017, 11:46 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yes, but for god a single day is like a thousand years, right? So that is like 2500 years of solitude . . .

But for God a thousand years is also like a single day, and that would make it like less than 2 seconds.
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Old 9th February 2017, 12:14 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
But for God a thousand years is also like a single day, and that would make it like less than 2 seconds.
You're right, I got my unit conversions mixed up. Massive sacrifice, that 2 seconds. That he had his son take care of for him.

I tell you what, I'm going to make a huge sacrifice. Everyone here who reads my post needs to pause for 2 seconds today. If even two of you do it I will have made a greater sacrifice than god did.
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Old 9th February 2017, 12:16 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You're right, I got my unit conversions mixed up. Massive sacrifice, that 2 seconds. That he had his son take care of for him.

I tell you what, I'm going to make a huge sacrifice. Everyone here who reads my post needs to pause for 2 seconds today. If even two of you do it I will have made a greater sacrifice than god did.
And...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...done!
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Old 9th February 2017, 12:22 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
And...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...done!
May my sacrifice resonate through the ages.
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Old 9th February 2017, 12:41 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I would be reluctant to concede that the "greatest theological minds on the planet" have a greater mind than mine.
And I am certain they do not!!!
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Old 9th February 2017, 12:45 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yes, but for god a single day is like a thousand years, right? So that is like 2500 years of solitude . . .
In dog years.

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