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Old 9th February 2017, 12:52 PM   #281
abaddon
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I don't think that pointing out the blatantly false claim that I brought up a verse is nitpicking.
Perhaps your bet or quibble should be with that individual and not everyone else in thread.
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Old 9th February 2017, 01:05 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
false. The quote from Peter clearly said that it was the voice of God.
Nope. Peter simply made an unevidenced claim, and it was not Peter anyway. I have no clue why it might be that this is in any way convincing to you.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Of course, at no time did I believe that you had any genuine intention of discussing this in a reasonable manner, and that your "offer" was always going to be subject to the clever "gotcha" that you are the Judge.
That is more than ironic.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Accordingly, I am in the process of making a donation of $20 to the Pro-life Action League in honor of this thread.

thanks so much!
Good for you, suppress women, yay.

Really?

I don't mind anyone having their own opinion, I relish it. Differing opinions are to be sought, not suppressed.

Nonetheless. you have crossed a line. There is no returning. I wish it were else, but it ain't.
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Old 9th February 2017, 01:21 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
false. The quote from Peter clearly said that it was the voice of God.

Of course, at no time did I believe that you had any genuine intention of discussing this in a reasonable manner, and that your "offer" was always going to be subject to the clever "gotcha" that you are the Judge.

Accordingly, I am in the process of making a donation of $20 to the Pro-life Action League in honor of this thread.


thanks so much!

That would be the mob that picket family planing clinics, harassing staff and patients, wouldn't it? Yes a really deserving cause and one of the reasons atheists like myself are so anti theism. But, but, but, you are just doing the good work of God aren't you?
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Old 9th February 2017, 01:31 PM   #284
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Please The Big Dog, I went to a lot of trouble putting this together, in response to your claiming you couldn't see the question about the subject.

Could I have you take a look at it again and give me you're take on it, or perhaps consult the works of one of the great theological minds, for inspiration.


Quote:
If Adam and Eve were perfect, why did they choose to sin?

Adam and Eve, when they were created in the Garden of Eden, were without sin. Because of that, they were perfect and flawless.
However, with that theology in mind, I'm running up against a wall: Why, if Adam and Eve were perfect, did they choose to sin?

Were they not perfect?

If we presume that they weren't perfect, then we have to see that God created them with the imperfection. If God created them as imperfect, would that mean that by creating us this way he caused us to sin?
(Being omniscient, he knew full well that if he created us to sin then we would sin. Therefore wouldn't his act of creation be the cause of the sin?) Finally, if he created us to sin, can God be held accountable for this sin?

Were they perfect?

Or, rather, did God create them as perfect and they chose imperfection? If Adam and Eve chose imperfection, how could they be considered perfect?

My question, in summary

Are there any doctrines that speak to the perfection or imperfection of Adam and Eve (particularly in regards to why they chose to sin)?
If the doctrine claims Adam and Eve were perfect, how do they reconcile this with them choosing imperfection (since that would indicate they were imperfect from creation)?
If the doctrine claims that Adam and Eve were imperfect, how do they reconcile this with the idea that God created imperfect beings? Furthermore, does that doctrine hold that God is partially responsible for the sins that Adam and Eve committed since he knew that they would commit the sin and chose to create them anyways?

Last edited by Thor 2; 9th February 2017 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 9th February 2017, 01:37 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Please The Big Dog, I went to a lot of trouble putting this together, in response to your claiming you couldn't see the question about the subject.

Could I have you take a look at it again and give me you're take on it, or perhaps consult the works of one of the great theological minds, for inspiration.
sure, it appears to be off topic, a false dichotomy and disregards the metaphorical nature of the story of Adam and eve.

Proud to be of service.
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Old 9th February 2017, 01:43 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
sure, it appears to be off topic, a false dichotomy and disregards the metaphorical nature of the story of Adam and eve.

Proud to be of service.
Typical worthless Christian logic.

God is real, because it says so in the Bible.

Jesus is real, because it says so in the Bible.

Jesus was killed and came back to life, because it says so in the Bible.

But Adam and Eve are metaphorical even though the Bible says that they were real.
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Old 9th February 2017, 01:46 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
sure, it appears to be off topic, a false dichotomy and disregards the metaphorical nature of the story of Adam and eve.

Proud to be of service.
Great. Your fellow travellers claim it is literal not metaphorical in direct opposition to you. Why is that?
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Old 9th February 2017, 01:55 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
sure, it appears to be off topic, a false dichotomy and disregards the metaphorical nature of the story of Adam and eve.

Proud to be of service.

It is not off topic, it shows that however you look at it your God is bad, big time.

Whether he creates people perfect or not, he knows it is all going to fall in a big heap but continues with the creation anyway, knowing that the bulk of his creation, is to be condemned to an eternity of suffering.

On a scale of 1 to 10 of badness this has to be 11!
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Old 9th February 2017, 02:02 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Please The Big Dog, I went to a lot of trouble putting this together, in response to your claiming you couldn't see the question about the subject.

Could I have you take a look at it again and give me you're take on it, or perhaps consult the works of one of the great theological minds, for inspiration.
What was their sin? Being curious and wanting to learn? In theory God created the curious minds of humanity and then made it a sin to exercise that mind? Now does that really make sense?
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Old 9th February 2017, 02:03 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
In dog years.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
Yeah, but how many legs does the 'dog' have?
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Old 9th February 2017, 02:07 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
sure, it appears to be off topic, a false dichotomy and disregards the metaphorical nature of the story of Adam and eve.

Proud to be of service.
So the story is metaphorical and not historical? What other biblical stories are metaphorical and not historical? And if it is metaphorical, what lesson is it teaching? Blind obedience to authority perhaps?
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Old 9th February 2017, 02:12 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So the story is metaphorical and not historical? What other biblical stories are metaphorical and not historical? And if it is metaphorical, what lesson is it teaching? Blind obedience to authority perhaps?
Further question: how is one reliably to KNOW which are metaphorical and which are literal? What is one to do when supposed " 'siblings' in 'christ' " disagree?
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Old 9th February 2017, 02:17 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Great. Your fellow travellers claim it is literal not metaphorical in direct opposition to you. Why is that?
Satan obviously

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
It is not off topic, it shows that however you look at it your God is bad, big time.

Whether he creates people perfect or not, he knows it is all going to fall in a big heap but continues with the creation anyway, knowing that the bulk of his creation, is to be condemned to an eternity of suffering.

On a scale of 1 to 10 of badness this has to be 11!
No actually it does not, in fact whoever wrote that ought to be ashamed of themselves as they can't even manage to mow down their poorly written strawman without resorting to a blatant false dichotomy. Further, that silliness is designed not to show that "God is Bad' but rather that "God is not Omnipotent."

I baffled why you are impressed with that nonsense. Oh well.
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Old 9th February 2017, 02:26 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Satan obviously



No actually it does not, in fact whoever wrote that ought to be ashamed of themselves as they can't even manage to mow down their poorly written strawman without resorting to a blatant false dichotomy. Further, that silliness is designed not to show that "God is Bad' but rather that "God is not Omnipotent."

I baffled why you are impressed with that nonsense. Oh well.

Bit of a favorite of yours isn't it. Calling something false dichotomy without detailing why.

And no! The argument is given that God is Omnipotent he is extremely bad for going ahead with the creation anyway.

Do try to pay attention.
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Old 9th February 2017, 02:29 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Further question: how is one reliably to KNOW which are metaphorical and which are literal? What is one to do when supposed " 'siblings' in 'christ' " disagree?
Does this post belong in the Brothers in Christ thread.
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Old 9th February 2017, 02:31 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Does this post belong in the Brothers in Christ thread.
...I blame 'satan'...
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Old 9th February 2017, 02:34 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Please The Big Dog, I went to a lot of trouble putting this together, in response to your claiming you couldn't see the question about the subject.

Could I have you take a look at it again and give me you're take on it, or perhaps consult the works of one of the great theological minds, for inspiration.
I've sometimes asked a similar question: if humans alone have the free will to defy God, how did Lucifer and his angels rebel? That had to have been part of the plan all along. Wouldn't they be not so much fallen angels, as pushed ones?

I know the answer is "because it's all a myth cobbled together from medieval superstition, authoritarian Church doctrine and a lot of Milton, it doesn't have to make sense," but well, so's the rest of theology.
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Old 9th February 2017, 02:37 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post

And no! The argument is given that God is Omnipotent he is extremely bad for going ahead with the creation anyway.

Do try to pay attention.
Wait, you don't understand why a a proposed solution giving two alternatives and ignoring the existence of others (ie, metaphor) is a false dichotomy? Huh. Listen I am not sure I can dumb it down any further than i already have.

next:

Begins to pay close attention...
rereads this: "The argument is given that God is Omnipotent he is extremely bad for going ahead with the creation anyway."
Realizes that paying attention is a bad idea

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Old 9th February 2017, 02:58 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I've sometimes asked a similar question: if humans alone have the free will to defy God, how did Lucifer and his angels rebel? That had to have been part of the plan all along. Wouldn't they be not so much fallen angels, as pushed ones?

I know the answer is "because it's all a myth cobbled together from medieval superstition, authoritarian Church doctrine and a lot of Milton, it doesn't have to make sense," but well, so's the rest of theology.
Critical thinkers would ask themselves, upon what do you base the highlighted statement?
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Old 9th February 2017, 02:59 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I've sometimes asked a similar question: if humans alone have the free will to defy God, how did Lucifer and his angels rebel? That had to have been part of the plan all along. Wouldn't they be not so much fallen angels, as pushed ones?

I know the answer is "because it's all a myth cobbled together from medieval superstition, authoritarian Church doctrine and a lot of Milton, it doesn't have to make sense," but well, so's the rest of theology.

Well those fallen angels were perfect creations of God that somehow went pear shaped also. God has to lift his game.
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Old 9th February 2017, 03:03 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Wait, you don't understand why a a proposed solution giving two alternatives and ignoring the existence of others (ie, metaphor) is a false dichotomy? Huh. Listen I am not sure I can dumb it down any further than i already have.

next:

Begins to pay close attention...
rereads this: "The argument is given that God is Omnipotent he is extremely bad for going ahead with the creation anyway."
Realizes that paying attention is a bad idea


Strange that you can't see it when so many others can. You have to remove those theist glasses, the view is much better without.
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Old 9th February 2017, 03:07 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Strange that you can't see it when so many others can. You have to remove those theist glasses, the view is much better without.
Mayhap you want to vet this sentence:

"The argument is given that God is Omnipotent he is extremely bad for going ahead with the creation anyway."

for legibility before you start getting cocky?
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Old 9th February 2017, 03:08 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
May my sacrifice resonate through the ages.
Doesn't seem to be resonating around here yet. Could you try again?
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Old 9th February 2017, 03:11 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Further question: how is one reliably to KNOW which are metaphorical and which are literal? What is one to do when supposed " 'siblings' in 'christ' " disagree?
EXACTLY!!!! I remember how desperately I tried to hang on to the religion as it was very much a part of my life.

Eventually I had to make the whole book metaphorical. But for many reasons, even that wouldn't work for me. First, that view of the Bible was considered heretical in every church I tried. Secondly, I ended up disagreeing that the metaphors were positive.

I don't get how Big Dog and other Christians can accept that God is good. Not with the atrocities attributed to God in the bible. Even if we ignore them which I think is dishonest and just focus on his commandments, how could you? FYI, there are 613 not 10. These aren't the commandments of an all knowing God and certainly not those of a good God. The first 3 seem to come from an immature and insecure child demanding servility more than anything.

In my mind, if there is a God, no way is he the God of the Bible. Christians, Jews and Muslims are taught that God is jealous. But jealousy is a petty emotion of the weak and powerless. Does that sound like a being that created the universe?

I miss church. I miss the good people which are most of those I knew at church. But I don't miss the willful ignorance. I don't miss my hypocrisy and that feeling of being dishonest to myself and the world. Eventually I had to choose. I'd eat of the tree of knowledge every time...so maybe it wasn't a choice.

So much for free will.
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Old 9th February 2017, 03:21 PM   #305
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The curious thing about this thread is that it appears that the vast majority of folks have not only ignored my explanations (i even put it in size five font) but also the entire New testament!

Quote:
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:35-40.

maybe this will shed some more light on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI1Gst7pEqc
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Old 9th February 2017, 03:32 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The curious thing about this thread is that it appears that the vast majority of folks have not only ignored my explanations (i even put it in size five font) but also the entire New testament!



Matthew 22:35-40.

maybe this will shed some more light on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI1Gst7pEqc
What a load crap.

Quotes from a fairy book that you do not believe in are not likely to make anyone believe in a supernatural deity that most likely does not even exist.
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Old 9th February 2017, 03:39 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The curious thing about this thread is that it appears that the vast majority of folks have not only ignored my explanations (i even put it in size five font) but also the entire New testament!



Matthew 22:35-40.

maybe this will shed some more light on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI1Gst7pEqc
That's because your explanations aren't explanations. Referencing bible verses hardly tells any of us what you think. Personally, I see your posts as disingenuous. It's more a way of not addressing the topic then anything.
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Old 9th February 2017, 04:10 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
What a load crap.

Quotes from a fairy book that you do not believe in are not likely to make anyone believe in a supernatural deity that most likely does not even exist.
cool story bro.

say, ya got that $20 you owe me?
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Old 9th February 2017, 04:40 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
What a load crap.

Quotes from a fairy book that you do not believe in are not likely to make anyone believe in a supernatural deity that most likely does not even exist.
Come on now, you know that Sky Daddy doesn't exist, you're just being nice to the theists.
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Old 9th February 2017, 05:21 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Doesn't seem to be resonating around here yet. Could you try again?
OK, but it's getting a bit old.

Here goes:

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

Done! (10 whole seconds, this time...)
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Old 9th February 2017, 05:53 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
cool story bro.

say, ya got that $20 you owe me?
Once again you fail.

You have repeatedly to validate your own deity, however my offer still stands.

If you can find me even one place in your Bible where your God says that Jesus is his son then you will get your money.
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On 16 MAY 2017 Paul Bethke discussed some of the sexual prohibitions of his god regarding man-to-man sex acts and woman-to-woman sex acts: "So not only lesbian acts but also anal sex.."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post11840580

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Old 9th February 2017, 06:45 PM   #312
The Big Dog
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sky daddy, fairy, 20 missing bucks.

Damn that stuff is freaking beautiful,

run up the white flag and break out the insipid insults, one theist just tied us up in knots.

Fantastic.
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:01 PM   #313
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
sky daddy, fairy, 20 missing bucks.

Damn that stuff is freaking beautiful,

run up the white flag and break out the insipid insults, one theist just tied us up in knots.

Fantastic.
You think?

Too bad you never had the courage to actually discuss the topic of the thread.
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:33 PM   #314
Crossbow
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
sky daddy, fairy, 20 missing bucks.

Damn that stuff is freaking beautiful,

run up the white flag and break out the insipid insults, one theist just tied us up in knots.

Fantastic.
No big surprise.

The absurdity and illogic of religion always fails to deliver anything objective.
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On 16 MAY 2017 Paul Bethke discussed some of the sexual prohibitions of his god regarding man-to-man sex acts and woman-to-woman sex acts: "So not only lesbian acts but also anal sex.."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post11840580

A man's best friend is his dogma.
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:41 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Uh huh, considering that the Church wasn't around in 400 BC, you'll forgive us if we don't just go ahead and take your word for it.

Thanks.
Numa Marcius, first Pontifex Maximus c.700BCE
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:42 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Numa Marcius, first Pontifex Maximus c.700BCE
Big fan of Jesus was he?
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Old 9th February 2017, 07:48 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Big fan of Jesus was he?
The Collegium Pontificum, is flexible. It adapts
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Old 9th February 2017, 08:28 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Numa Marcius, first Pontifex Maximus c.700BCE
Between this and the crap posts that the bible doesn't say Jesus was the son of god, I'm becoming embarrassed to be an atheist. The other side wins these two exchanges, from where I sit.

BTW, like the Roman holidays, the title "Pontifex Maximus" was appropriated by the Christians when they became the state religion. The original PM was, essentially, the High Priest of the Republic and Empire.

In fairness, however, Big Dog loses when he claims Adam and Eve were allegorical, or whatever. The entire Christian doctrine of Original Sin rests upon the supposed truth of the story, without which Jesus is wholly unnecessary. It is because of Original Sin that everything humans do, think or say is tainted. Jesus, being perfect, was the perfect sacrifice, and anyone who denies his sacrifice de facto rejects it. Whoever rejects it, retains the taint of OS and cannot enter heaven. However, if Adam and Eve had never existed, and thus had never disobeyed God, then Sin would have never entered the world. Besides, the entire Bible is held by most of Christianity to be the verbatim Word of God.

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Old 9th February 2017, 09:08 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Mayhap you want to vet this sentence:

"The argument is given that God is Omnipotent he is extremely bad for going ahead with the creation anyway."

for legibility before you start getting cocky?

OK, OK, a slight typo in there. There should be an "if" between "that" and "God". Most would just see that as obvious I think. You really didn't see that, or are you just clutching at straws again, to prop up your unsustainable position?
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Old 9th February 2017, 09:15 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
In fairness, however, Big Dog loses when he claims Adam and Eve were allegorical, or whatever. The entire Christian doctrine of Original Sin rests upon the supposed truth of the story, without which Jesus is wholly unnecessary. It is because of Original Sin that everything humans do, think or say is tainted. Jesus, being perfect, was the perfect sacrifice, and anyone who denies his sacrifice de facto rejects it. Whoever rejects it, retains the taint of OS and cannot enter heaven. However, if Adam and Eve had never existed, and thus had never disobeyed God, then Sin would have never entered the world. Besides, the entire Bible is held by most of Christianity to be the verbatim Word of God.
I agree to a point. Everything does hinge on the Adam and Eve story. Without the fall of man Jesus is not necessary. That said, I disagree about most churches saying the entire book is the verbatim word of God. Not when you consider that the Catholic Church and other Christian churches now say that evolution is correct.

Although I still hear many Catholics still denying it.
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