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Old 10th February 2017, 01:22 AM   #321
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I agree to a point. Everything does hinge on the Adam and Eve story. Without the fall of man Jesus is not necessary. That said, I disagree about most churches saying the entire book is the verbatim word of God. Not when you consider that the Catholic Church and other Christian churches now say that evolution is correct.

Although I still hear many Catholics still denying it.

Yes, interesting that is. Given that the Pope, (Wearer of the shoes of the fisherman, the rock that the Catholic Church is built on, and supposedly infallible), accepts the truth of evolution.

What is you're take on this The Big Dog?

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Old 10th February 2017, 01:41 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Is theology even a subject?
[pet peeve]Of course it's a *********** subject. Many thousands of scholars have studied it for centuries. The only thing that varies is whether you think it's an important subject.

Scholars who a) think it is important and b) have spent many years of detailed scholarship on the subject know a crapload more about it than those of us who don't and haven't.
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Old 10th February 2017, 01:44 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? So you think slavery is good? You think infanticide is good? and punishing the great great grandchildren for the sins of their great great grandparents? So, like Abraham, if you believed that God told you to kill and rape your son and daughter you would necessarily have to do it, wouldn't you? Don't say God wouldn't do that because he did order the killing and raping of children.

The problem with your position is that it isn't moral. It's just following orders.
Yep. That's exactly right. From your point of view. See, here's the thing about morality: it isn't objective. Different people have different views on what is moral and what isn't. For some, yes, it is morally good to blindly follow orders, when those orders come from the supreme ruler of the universe who is defined a priori as the source of everything good. This is why we have religious terrorists today.
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Old 10th February 2017, 01:46 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Slight misunderstanding, perhaps. I believe arthwollipot is not condoning the bible, but underlining the odd illogical baggage that goes on before, during and after it.
Once again I am mistaken for a true believer.

I think that says good things about my capacity to think outside my bubble. I'm actually flattered.
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Old 10th February 2017, 05:44 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yep. That's exactly right. From your point of view. See, here's the thing about morality: it isn't objective. Different people have different views on what is moral and what isn't. For some, yes, it is morally good to blindly follow orders, when those orders come from the supreme ruler of the universe who is defined a priori as the source of everything good. This is why we have religious terrorists today.
I agree. But not just today.Throughout history. What do you think the Israelites were doing to the Amalkites and the Caananites?

It's probably an oversimplification but it sure seems like religions prosper through power, coercion and violence. Do we really belive that Christianity and Islam wouldn't be the most successful religions on the planet without it? If Christianity hadn't been an extension of the Roman empire and the European powers there is no way it would be where it is today. Islam has grown with its coercive nature.
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Old 10th February 2017, 06:07 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I agree to a point. Everything does hinge on the Adam and Eve story. Without the fall of man Jesus is not necessary. That said, I disagree about most churches saying the entire book is the verbatim word of God. Not when you consider that the Catholic Church and other Christian churches now say that evolution is correct.

Although I still hear many Catholics still denying it.
Thanks much. That is about what I was thinking as well.

One of the many things that irritates me about so many Christians is how they expect people to blindly and entirely accept the parts of the Bible that they like (such as the whole Jesus is the son of God who was born, who died, who came back to life, and who went to heaven) because that is written in the Bible.

And at the same time they discount out other parts of the Bible which they find to be too whacky to believe (such as Adam and Eve being the very first humans, the Flood, and other such stuff), even though this stuff is also written into the Bible.

And at the same time they love to say who they revere the Bible because it is the word of God.

Gee whiz!

It is no wonder that so many Christians are far too stupid and far too dishonest to read the Bible even when they can make some quick money to read the book that they supposedly revere so very much as being the word of God.
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Old 10th February 2017, 06:48 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Typical worthless Christian logic.

God is real, because it says so in the Bible.

Jesus is real, because it says so in the Bible.

Jesus was killed and came back to life, because it says so in the Bible.

But Adam and Eve are metaphorical even though the Bible says that they were real.
Reality is very flexible to the religious.
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Old 10th February 2017, 06:51 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yep. That's exactly right. From your point of view. See, here's the thing about morality: it isn't objective. Different people have different views on what is moral and what isn't. For some, yes, it is morally good to blindly follow orders, when those orders come from the supreme ruler of the universe who is defined a priori as the source of everything good. This is why we have religious terrorists today.
And why I say with assurance, if god then god is basically evil or has no morality in any sense we use the term.
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Old 10th February 2017, 07:13 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes, interesting that is. Given that the Pope, (Wearer of the shoes of the fisherman, the rock that the Catholic Church is built on, and supposedly infallible), accepts the truth of evolution.

What is you're take on this The Big Dog?
Well I hear that virtually all Catholics are denying what he claims he "heard."

"i hear that...." y'all know that what follows is going to be some NEXT LEVEL skepticism.

lolz
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Old 10th February 2017, 07:28 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes, interesting that is. Given that the Pope, (Wearer of the shoes of the fisherman, the rock that the Catholic Church is built on, and supposedly infallible), accepts the truth of evolution.
A majority of catholics are of the "a-la-carte" variety. In theory, this should not happen, given the papal bull (sorry), but in practice, it is true.

When I was a lad, there were 3-4 priests per parish and services were crowded. These days, there are 3-4 parishes per priest and services rarely achieve double digits, the exceptions being births, marriages and deaths and similar social events.
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Old 10th February 2017, 07:29 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well I hear that virtually all Catholics are denying what he claims he "heard."

"i hear that...." y'all know that what follows is going to be some NEXT LEVEL skepticism.

lolz
Just out of curiosity...what is your personal take on the doctrine, pronounced ex cathedra, that Adam and Eve may not be interpreted "metaphorically" by the faithful?
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Old 10th February 2017, 07:38 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
...snip... Besides, the entire Bible is held by most of Christianity to be the verbatim Word of God.

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Have to strongly disagree with that, it seems to me that only a few sects of Christianity hold to the view the Bible is "the verbatim Word of God", for example the RCers don't and they by far are the majority of the world's Christianity.
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Old 10th February 2017, 07:50 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Have to strongly disagree with that, it seems to me that only a few sects of Christianity hold to the view the Bible is "the verbatim Word of God", for example the RCers don't and they by far are the majority of the world's Christianity.
I agree that only a few sub-sects hold to literal, plenary verbal, biblical inerrancy. To me, the problem is less that xians admit that some of (even much of) the bible is metaphor, or "teaching stories"; than it is the disunity over which bits are "literal", which bits are "metaphorical", how to tell the bits apart; and what the bits mean.

This is, of course, compounded (as demonstrated in this thread) by people (believers and non-believers) who continue to confuse biblical and extra-biblical images of "the devil".

But it beats having to work on a Friday morning...
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:05 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Reality is very flexible to the religious.
Thanks much.

The great thing about religion is that it can mean whatever one wants religion to mean.

Conversely, the bad thing about religion is that since religion can mean anything that one wants it to mean, then religion does not mean anything.
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:08 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well I hear that virtually all Catholics are denying what he claims he "heard."

"i hear that...." y'all know that what follows is going to be some NEXT LEVEL skepticism.

lolz
Well then, I guess that means you will have fun with that next level.
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On 16 MAY 2017 Paul Bethke discussed some of the sexual prohibitions of his god regarding man-to-man sex acts and woman-to-woman sex acts: "So not only lesbian acts but also anal sex.."
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:09 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
OK, but it's getting a bit old.

Here goes:

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

Done! (10 whole seconds, this time...)
That did the job!!!
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:18 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Thanks much. That is about what I was thinking as well.

One of the many things that irritates me about so many Christians is how they expect people to blindly and entirely accept the parts of the Bible that they like (such as the whole Jesus is the son of God who was born, who died, who came back to life, and who went to heaven) because that is written in the Bible.

And at the same time they discount out other parts of the Bible which they find to be too whacky to believe (such as Adam and Eve being the very first humans, the Flood, and other such stuff), even though this stuff is also written into the Bible.

And at the same time they love to say who they revere the Bible because it is the word of God.

Gee whiz!

It is no wonder that so many Christians are far too stupid and far too dishonest to read the Bible even when they can make some quick money to read the book that they supposedly revere so very much as being the word of God.
I grew up attending a fundamentalist church where they taught that the bible is the unerring word of God. Which was an idea I could never accept even though it was church doctrine. I mean what thinking adult actually believes that the Noah or Jonah accounts are real? Which is why I think it is kind of interesting that those stories are taught to children in Sunday School and not to the adult congregation.

It's not that Christians are stupid it's that people are both lazy and preachers know that the fastest way to deconvert people is for people to actually read the book. That is what made me an atheist. While I had read many passages in the bible there was so much i had never read. So I was determined to read the whole thing. And the more I read not only did I believe less the more I hated it. You see its all good when you read about love and forgiveness and grace or having the strength to face the big bad world but that is really a small part of the book. Most of the book is a horror show of a brutal violent insecure dictator demanding servility and the unquestioning slaves it makes of the followers. I think it is close to impossible to get through the Old Testament thinking that God is anything but an evil psycho. But as bad as God is, it is the effect God has on the people that is really sickening. They are as wicked as the Einsatzgruppen troopers in WWII.

The story of Abraham is supposed to be a good story but it's not. Abraham is going to kill his son because he believes God told him to. But for me it was the story of Jeptha that made say 'enough, I want nothing to do with this God'. If you don't know it, that's okay most Christians don't know it. I didn't know it until I sat down to read the whole bible. I've never heard a preacher base a sermon on the story and it's easy to see why. Jeptha is a general who promised God that if he could be victorious in battle he would sacrifice whatever person or animal that greeted him when he returned home. It turned out to be his teenage daughter. The man was heartbroken and told his daughter what he promised God. His daughter actually understood telling her father that it was OK.
This was sick.

From that moment on I refused to praise God or believe. My parents asked me to talk to the pastor about it. We went over it together but his explanation was pathetic. I'm not sure I ever believed the book was accurate, but I never knew it was so horrible.
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:30 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Just out of curiosity...what is your personal take on the doctrine, pronounced ex cathedra, that Adam and Eve may not be interpreted "metaphorically" by the faithful?
My personal take... MY personal take? Well...

WELCOME TO THE THREAD SATAN

because only the great deceiver could come up with such a blatant falsehood.

There is OF COURSE no such doctrine, ex cathedra or otherwise, in the Catholic Church. That hardly even needs being said of course, given that this is a site for "skeptics."
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:53 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
My personal take... MY personal take? Well...

WELCOME TO THE THREAD SATAN

because only the great deceiver could come up with such a blatant falsehood.
Who are you talking about, Donald Trump?

TBD response is so perfectly typical and a tenet of religion. Anyone that disputes anything in the Bible is performing the work of the devil. In the good old days they would torture you until you accepted the Lord or just burn you at the stake for being a heretic.
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Old 10th February 2017, 09:00 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
My personal take... MY personal take? Well...

WELCOME TO THE THREAD SATAN

because only the great deceiver could come up with such a blatant falsehood.
As a famous person once said:

"Well. Isn't that special?"
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Old 10th February 2017, 09:08 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
My personal take... MY personal take? Well...

WELCOME TO THE THREAD SATAN

because only the great deceiver could come up with such a blatant falsehood.

There is OF COURSE no such doctrine, ex cathedra or otherwise, in the Catholic Church. That hardly even needs being said of course, given that this is a site for "skeptics."
You are right, but you will hardly find catholic in europe which take it as a litteral story.

And yet the primary writer of that story, you know the guy of the OT, the Jewish folk, it was a metaphor and not to be taken literally , at least for the modern jew. *shrug* this is why Christianity is a load of crapola really. If you steal a text at least use the same interpretation or change the text completely otherwise you look like idiot.

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Old 10th February 2017, 09:16 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
You are right, but you will hardly find catholic in europe which take it as a litteral story.

And yet the primary writer of that story, you know the guy of the OT, the Jewish folk, it was a metaphor and not to be taken literally , at least for the modern jew. *shrug* this is why Christianity is a load of crapola really. If you steal a text at least use the same interpretation or change the text completely otherwise you look like idiot.
I am certain that I don't follow you.

I don't take it literally.
catholics are not required to take it literally (the claim otherwise is utterly false)
catholics is Europe do not take it literally and
Jews don't take it literally.

Based on that, how did you come to this conclusion: "this is why Christianity is a load of crapola really. If you steal a text at least use the same interpretation or change the text completely otherwise you look like idiot."

What is why?
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Old 10th February 2017, 09:37 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is precisely what Satan would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity is the height of creation, when in fact it does not take long to see that is in fact not true, and that Satan, the slanderer, the accuser, the trickster, the fallen angel has beguiled so many by appealing to their egos and through false flattery.
No, it's because God in the bible is a dishonest, megalomaniacal, genocidal prick. The serpent, in contrast, actually tells Eve the truth.

I find it interesting, however, that a grown man such as yourself believes in magic and talking snakes.
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Old 10th February 2017, 09:45 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Once again I am mistaken for a true believer.

I think that says good things about my capacity to think outside my bubble. I'm actually flattered.
Plagiarizing Joan of Arc, I see.

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Old 10th February 2017, 09:49 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, it's because God in the bible is a dishonest, megalomaniacal, genocidal prick. The serpent, in contrast, actually tells Eve the truth.

I find it interesting, however, that a grown man such as yourself believes in magic and talking snakes.
'k.

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Old 10th February 2017, 09:53 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
OK, but it's getting a bit old.

Here goes:

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

Done! (10 whole seconds, this time...)
My sacrifice knows no bounds!
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Old 10th February 2017, 09:59 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I grew up attending a fundamentalist church where they taught that the bible is the unerring word of God. Which was an idea I could never accept even though it was church doctrine. I mean what thinking adult actually believes that the Noah or Jonah accounts are real? Which is why I think it is kind of interesting that those stories are taught to children in Sunday School and not to the adult congregation.

It's not that Christians are stupid it's that people are both lazy and preachers know that the fastest way to deconvert people is for people to actually read the book. That is what made me an atheist. While I had read many passages in the bible there was so much i had never read. So I was determined to read the whole thing. And the more I read not only did I believe less the more I hated it. You see its all good when you read about love and forgiveness and grace or having the strength to face the big bad world but that is really a small part of the book. Most of the book is a horror show of a brutal violent insecure dictator demanding servility and the unquestioning slaves it makes of the followers. I think it is close to impossible to get through the Old Testament thinking that God is anything but an evil psycho. But as bad as God is, it is the effect God has on the people that is really sickening. They are as wicked as the Einsatzgruppen troopers in WWII.

The story of Abraham is supposed to be a good story but it's not. Abraham is going to kill his son because he believes God told him to. But for me it was the story of Jeptha that made say 'enough, I want nothing to do with this God'. If you don't know it, that's okay most Christians don't know it. I didn't know it until I sat down to read the whole bible. I've never heard a preacher base a sermon on the story and it's easy to see why. Jeptha is a general who promised God that if he could be victorious in battle he would sacrifice whatever person or animal that greeted him when he returned home. It turned out to be his teenage daughter. The man was heartbroken and told his daughter what he promised God. His daughter actually understood telling her father that it was OK.
This was sick.

From that moment on I refused to praise God or believe. My parents asked me to talk to the pastor about it. We went over it together but his explanation was pathetic. I'm not sure I ever believed the book was accurate, but I never knew it was so horrible.
I grew up as a Wisconsin Synod Evangelical Lutheran, the fundamentalist's fundamentals. That story is "interpreted" thus:

Note that the daughter asked for time to "bewail her virginity." This meant that she was going to be sacrificed, yes, but not via death. Rather, she would never know a man, but would devote herself to God's service.

In essence, she would become a nun. I always thought this was an odd interpretation for a Lutheran to make.

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Old 10th February 2017, 10:02 AM   #348
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This has been an interesting thread to read........

Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
If you steal a text at least use the same interpretation or change the text completely otherwise you look like idiot.
^ This.

In the Tanakh ("OT") there is NO devil/Lucifer/fallen angel. And "Satan" is not a name of any entity.

Xians took the idea of a "good god/bad god" from other religions, then changed the "bad god" into "the devil" who fights against the xian god. They then badly mixed it up with the Jewish writings.

(To be clear, I am NOT religious, but I have read the tanakh ("OT") and the xian bible).

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Old 10th February 2017, 10:45 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I grew up attending a fundamentalist church where they taught that the bible is the unerring word of God. Which was an idea I could never accept even though it was church doctrine. I mean what thinking adult actually believes that the Noah or Jonah accounts are real? Which is why I think it is kind of interesting that those stories are taught to children in Sunday School and not to the adult congregation.

It's not that Christians are stupid it's that people are both lazy and preachers know that the fastest way to deconvert people is for people to actually read the book. That is what made me an atheist. While I had read many passages in the bible there was so much i had never read. So I was determined to read the whole thing. And the more I read not only did I believe less the more I hated it. You see its all good when you read about love and forgiveness and grace or having the strength to face the big bad world but that is really a small part of the book. Most of the book is a horror show of a brutal violent insecure dictator demanding servility and the unquestioning slaves it makes of the followers. I think it is close to impossible to get through the Old Testament thinking that God is anything but an evil psycho. But as bad as God is, it is the effect God has on the people that is really sickening. They are as wicked as the Einsatzgruppen troopers in WWII.

The story of Abraham is supposed to be a good story but it's not. Abraham is going to kill his son because he believes God told him to. But for me it was the story of Jeptha that made say 'enough, I want nothing to do with this God'. If you don't know it, that's okay most Christians don't know it. I didn't know it until I sat down to read the whole bible. I've never heard a preacher base a sermon on the story and it's easy to see why. Jeptha is a general who promised God that if he could be victorious in battle he would sacrifice whatever person or animal that greeted him when he returned home. It turned out to be his teenage daughter. The man was heartbroken and told his daughter what he promised God. His daughter actually understood telling her father that it was OK.
This was sick.

From that moment on I refused to praise God or believe. My parents asked me to talk to the pastor about it. We went over it together but his explanation was pathetic. I'm not sure I ever believed the book was accurate, but I never knew it was so horrible.
Thanks much for sharing your thoughts.

As for me, I grew up as one of the sons of a Methodist Minister. I have heard it said that children of ministers tend to be non-religious since the children take the issue of religion so very seriously.

That is quite true in my case because even at a young age I was often confused at how people would embrace one section of the Bible that they really liked and felt so very vindicated since what they believed now was written about all those many centuries ago.

While at the same time, they would be entirely dismissive of other parts of the Bible even though they were written down as well.

While at the same time, they would recognize that there were many obvious inaccuracies with the facts presented in the Bible.

And all the while, they loved to say how the Bible was the word of God.

Gee whiz! As the famous writer George Orwell might say, this is an excellent example of triple-think!

As for myself, about the most revealing that I determined in my study of the Bible is that Jesus was Jewish and he never intended to start a new religion. While it is obvious that Jesus did have quite a few problems with the way the Jewish clergy was interacting with their followers, at no point does Jesus actually renounce his Jewish faith or tell his followers to start any sort of new religion.
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Old 10th February 2017, 10:47 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
I grew up as a Wisconsin Synod Evangelical Lutheran, the fundamentalist's fundamentals. That story is "interpreted" thus:

Note that the daughter asked for time to "bewail her virginity." This meant that she was going to be sacrificed, yes, but not via death. Rather, she would never know a man, but would devote herself to God's service.

In essence, she would become a nun. I always thought this was an odd interpretation for a Lutheran to make.

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I've heard that apologetic as well but one should note that the Jewish people don't interpret it that way. There is no way that interpretation is accurate as Jeptha promised to sacrifice whatever met him first.
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Old 10th February 2017, 10:53 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
'k.
As usual, no argument, only dismissal.
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Old 10th February 2017, 10:57 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
As usual, no argument, only dismissal.
It deserved not even that, as you would have shown to yourself had you actually bothered to read the thread.

As usual, though, no reading, no argument, day ends in "y."
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Old 10th February 2017, 10:59 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It deserved not even that, as you would have shown to yourself had you actually bothered to read the thread.
Are you thus conceding that the serpent told the truth and that god lied?
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Old 10th February 2017, 11:06 AM   #354
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Cripes read the thread, including post 342, I have no interest in spoon feeding people who want to do nothing more than bicker.
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Old 10th February 2017, 11:08 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cripes read the thread, including post 342
I read it. "Not taking it literally" says nothing about whether the bible describes the serpent as telling the truth and god lying. If we're talking about a movie, not taking it as true doesn't prevent you from offering interpretation about the events of the story.

Quote:
I have no interest in spoon feeding people who want to do nothing more than bicker.
Oh, you mean like this:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is precisely what Satan would have you believe and you have been seduced by his trickery into the self-aggrandizing view that Humanity is the height of creation, when in fact it does not take long to see that is in fact not true, and that Satan, the slanderer, the accuser, the trickster, the fallen angel has beguiled so many by appealing to their egos and through false flattery.
No bickering intent there. No sir.
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Old 10th February 2017, 11:27 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, you mean like this:

.
No more like this:

Quote:
I find it interesting, however, that a grown man such as yourself believes in magic and talking snakes.
Looking forward to the next passive/aggressive and blatantly defensive response.

Oh well, should have left it at
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Old 10th February 2017, 11:55 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No more like this:
Oh, I see. It only works when other people do it. When you accuse others of being under the influence of Satan (apparently literally, this time) then it's not bickering, defensive or passive aggressive.

Good show.

Meanwhile, god lied.
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Old 10th February 2017, 11:59 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, I see. It only works when other people do it. When you accuse others of being under the influence of Satan (apparently literally, this time) then it's not bickering, defensive or passive aggressive.

Good show.

Meanwhile, god lied.
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:07 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
That did the job!!!
Anything for the common weal...I can take 10 seconds of "...despised, and rejected; scorned, and afflicted...".
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:08 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
And again with the non-argument. Very convincing. I wonder if I should take that literally or not.
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