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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:22 PM   #201
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Like the idea that Mexico without complaint, would absorb 11 million people deported there.
Many of whom did not come from Mexico in the first place.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:44 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Many of whom did not come from Mexico in the first place.
Hey, all Brown people are alike. Why should we care where they go as long as they are out of Murica? [/Trump supporter]
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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:48 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Many of whom did not come from Mexico in the first place.
That's probably the most contentious issue to be honest.

It's one thing to deport Mexican citizens who entered the US back to mexico, for whatever reason, but many of those "illegal immigrants" are actually not Mexican citizen or even legal residents of Mexico but instead come from central American countries. They might have transited through Mexico, legally or otherwise, but even then it's not Mexico's obligation to make sure that they don't get into the US. That's entirely the Americans responsibility.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:50 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Like the idea that Mexico without complaint, would absorb 11 million people deported there.
Including many who are not from Mexico.......
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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:54 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Including many who are not from Mexico.......
Echo!
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Old 23rd February 2017, 01:00 PM   #206
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Quote:
“If you look at the opposition party, how they portrayed the campaign, how they portrayed the transition, how they portray the administration, it’s always wrong," Bannon said.

“If you remember, the campaign, by the media’s description, was the most chaotic, the most disorganized, most unprofessional, had no idea what they were doing. And then you saw [the media] all crying and weeping” on election night.

Bannon, the controversial former head of Breitbart News, has embraced his role as the media's top antagonist. Speaking alongside White House chief of staff Reince Priebus, he framed the media as part of a global war against the president’s agenda after Priebus accused the media of taking potshots at Trump over the summer of 2016.

"The corporatist globalist media is adamantly opposed to economic nationalist agenda like Donald Trump has," he said.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...-media-at-cpac

Bannon should learn something about macoeconomics: economic prosperity isn't a zero-sum game where if others gain something America loses out. The belief that everyone else must lose so America can win doesn't hold in reality.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 01:08 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...-media-at-cpac

Bannon should learn something about macoeconomics: economic prosperity isn't a zero-sum game where if others gain something America loses out. The belief that everyone else must lose so America can win doesn't hold in reality.
Bannon and reality are not well acquainted.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 01:16 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I appreciate your sensitivity to opposing views, but when it comes to Trump, it goes too far.

Decent, well-reasoned folk might well have chosen Romney over Obama.

Trump, on the other hand, is transparently a con artist. Anyone outside of his wealthy enclave who thinks that Trump literally cares about them has been hornswaggled. In this, I include everyone in my immediate family (siblings and parents, not wife and offspring). They have been taken to the cleaners and you and I know it.

Yes, they made their choice based on their view of self-interest, but the factual bits that went into that choice were simply false. They were conned. Damn shame for them and a bigger shame for the nation as a whole.
Hmm. I'm a little disappointing to see this approach from you. I understand it, but it's still disappointing. It's essentially right back to the starting point, the view that anyone who didn't vote for Clinton is a horrible person and/or stupid. It's completely discounting that some people did not believe that Clinton represented their interests, or that her policies would provide support for them. It ignores that a large chunk of people felt disenfranchised by per positions, and that their concerns were not important to her.

It dismisses the concept that different people have different value rankings, and that what is most important to you may not be what is most important to someone else. That doesn't mean it's unimportant, just not as important as something else.

I'm sure there are at least some people who believe that Trump cares about them, and I also believe that they are incorrect in that assumption. But I also feel that there are some people who feel that Clinton cares less about them than Trump does.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 01:25 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
That's the first time I've heard it stated as the Christian thing to elect an incompetent boob to office. I know a lot of Christian teachers, for instance, who didn't want her. Can you explain how that was a demonstration of Christian principles?

Until such time as you can, it sure looks like she was voted in without principles, to me.
Seems like perfectly sound reasoning to me: you don't like her, and other people also don't like her... therefore no principles were involved?

I don't know anything about her other than what my 3 second wikipedia scan indicated. I just think it's a mistake to assume that your dislike of another person's perspective invalidates the mere possibility of principles. By all means, make the case that the other person's principles are impractical, unworkable, mislead, or even outright immoral. Just don't assume they don't exist.

With the exception of perhaps a few true psychopaths, everyone has a set of internal values from which they view the world. Each person's ranking of the relative importance of their many competing values is unique to their experiences and background. You can certainly disagree with the ranking they ascribe to their values, and argue that the ranking should be different. You might even reasonably argue that one or more of their values are morally unacceptable to you. But to assume that their values don't exist at all is, well, presumptuous and dehumanizing.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 01:28 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
As I've said, I may be a bit naive on these issues.
Having ethics and principles isn't naive. It's often not very pragmatic, but never naive.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 01:37 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Seems like perfectly sound reasoning to me: you don't like her, and other people also don't like her... therefore no principles were involved?

I don't know anything about her other than what my 3 second wikipedia scan indicated. I just think it's a mistake to assume that your dislike of another person's perspective invalidates the mere possibility of principles. By all means, make the case that the other person's principles are impractical, unworkable, mislead, or even outright immoral. Just don't assume they don't exist.

With the exception of perhaps a few true psychopaths, everyone has a set of internal values from which they view the world. Each person's ranking of the relative importance of their many competing values is unique to their experiences and background. You can certainly disagree with the ranking they ascribe to their values, and argue that the ranking should be different. You might even reasonably argue that one or more of their values are morally unacceptable to you. But to assume that their values don't exist at all is, well, presumptuous and dehumanizing.
Er, no. You claimed Republicans voted for Devos because of "Christian principles". I'm saying that without some support for your claim, I'm rejecting it.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 01:42 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Er, no. You claimed Republicans voted for Devos because of "Christian principles". I'm saying that without some support for your claim, I'm rejecting it.
This drifted some... It seems to have become very specific when it started broad. Just to lay out where I'm coming from for easy reference:

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Also, I'd like to think that people realize that they have 2 choices, R or D. Not voting for the D because they are better than the R but still not good enough for one's precious principles means one gets the worst choice (see: Trump).
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Do you expect right-leaning people to vote against their principles... but for left-leaning people to vote for their principles? Do you think that other people's principles are less valid to them than your own are to you?
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
What principles did Republicans show by voting in Betsy Devos?
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Christian principles. You and I might not agree with them, that doesn't make them not-principles. And it doesn't mean that they voted her in against their principles or without principles.
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
That's the first time I've heard it stated as the Christian thing to elect an incompetent boob to office. I know a lot of Christian teachers, for instance, who didn't want her. Can you explain how that was a demonstration of Christian principles?

Until such time as you can, it sure looks like she was voted in without principles, to me.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Seems like perfectly sound reasoning to me: you don't like her, and other people also don't like her... therefore no principles were involved?

I don't know anything about her other than what my 3 second wikipedia scan indicated. I just think it's a mistake to assume that your dislike of another person's perspective invalidates the mere possibility of principles. By all means, make the case that the other person's principles are impractical, unworkable, mislead, or even outright immoral. Just don't assume they don't exist.

With the exception of perhaps a few true psychopaths, everyone has a set of internal values from which they view the world. Each person's ranking of the relative importance of their many competing values is unique to their experiences and background. You can certainly disagree with the ranking they ascribe to their values, and argue that the ranking should be different. You might even reasonably argue that one or more of their values are morally unacceptable to you. But to assume that their values don't exist at all is, well, presumptuous and dehumanizing.
After this, you're asking for specific defense of a specific person, about whom I know nothing, and have already admitted knowing nothing. My ignorance doesn't mean that principles don't exist. And the case of one single person doesn't make my larger point invalid.

You seem to be leading up to a position wherein republicans have no principles, in your view. If that's not your intention, please clarify for me.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:00 PM   #213
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How long can this work: Trump making stupid statements and his cabinet members or VP contradicting him?

Quote:
It fell to Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly to reassure his hosts that there would be "no mass deportations" and no use of the US military in immigration enforcement.
That appeared to directly contradict what President Trump had said earlier in the day when he told a meeting of manufacturing CEOs that his administration had been getting "really bad dudes" out of the United States - before specifically stating that it was a "military operation".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39068021
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:06 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
How long can this work: Trump making stupid statements and his cabinet members or VP contradicting him?
Indefinitely. It keeps both constituencies happy, Trump supporters and the more "moderate" GOP base...
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:10 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
How long can this work: Trump making stupid statements and his cabinet members or VP contradicting him?
They aren't contradicting him, they are just covering for his complete cluelessness.

Just because Trump called it a "military operation" doesn't mean he was planning to actually use the US military. He just doesn't actually know what "military operation" means, and uses it because he thinks it sounds good.

The Alt Dept of State twitter account had a really funny one today. Trump needs to watch the movie "Dave" so he can learn what you actually have to go through to be a fake president.

I love Dave. Their comment made me think of the scene where the president's aides are teaching him about the organization of government. Yeah, Trump might benefit from that.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:20 PM   #216
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The feds are going to clamp down on Pot:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...-spicer-235318

That is going to work well.
What puzzles me is why is Trump going there? He has nothing to gain politically from it, and will end any hope he had of winning over a lot of Libertarians. DUmb move.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:26 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The feds are going to clamp down on Pot:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...-spicer-235318

That is going to work well.
What puzzles me is why is Trump going there? He has nothing to gain politically from it, and will end any hope he had of winning over a lot of Libertarians. DUmb move.
It's not Trump's agenda. It's Pence's.

Just like the LGBT thing yesterday. There was no reason for Trump to do anything about it. He actually had said he wasn't going to bother. But Pence wants it. Since Trump really doesn't care, he just lets him do it.

This is my thinking on his anti-abortion stuff, too. He really isn't anti-abortion. He has said in the past he is pro-choice. The problem is, he doesn't actually care. He doesn't care whether the next SC judge is anti-abortion or not. But he knows his supporters care, so he'll do it to appease them.

This crap is irrelevant to him. Sure, Mike, whatever you want. Let me get back to Twitter.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:28 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Hmm. I'm a little disappointing to see this approach from you. I understand it, but it's still disappointing. It's essentially right back to the starting point, the view that anyone who didn't vote for Clinton is a horrible person and/or stupid. It's completely discounting that some people did not believe that Clinton represented their interests, or that her policies would provide support for them. It ignores that a large chunk of people felt disenfranchised by per positions, and that their concerns were not important to her.

It dismisses the concept that different people have different value rankings, and that what is most important to you may not be what is most important to someone else. That doesn't mean it's unimportant, just not as important as something else.

I'm sure there are at least some people who believe that Trump cares about them, and I also believe that they are incorrect in that assumption. But I also feel that there are some people who feel that Clinton cares less about them than Trump does.
Sorry to disappoint you, but yes, Trump is a con artist. There are some people who will do better under Trump, but not the bulk of his voters. They made a poor decision.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:34 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Many of whom did not come from Mexico in the first place.
First, you don't see ICE rounding up very many VISA overstayers from other parts if the world do you?

There might be a significant proportion of Central Americans among the more recent immigrants, but the majority of immigrants that have been here for decades and that are being rounded up are Mexicans.

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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:40 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The feds are going to clamp down on Pot:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...-spicer-235318

That is going to work well.
What puzzles me is why is Trump going there? He has nothing to gain politically from it, and will end any hope he had of winning over a lot of Libertarians. DUmb move.
I was worried about this happening and I worried more once he picked Sessions for AG. Agree that libertarians won't like it. Not sure how much that matters. Any of the forum libertarians want to weigh in?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:42 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
That's probably the most contentious issue to be honest.

It's one thing to deport Mexican citizens who entered the US back to mexico, for whatever reason, but many of those "illegal immigrants" are actually not Mexican citizen or even legal residents of Mexico but instead come from central American countries. They might have transited through Mexico, legally or otherwise, but even then it's not Mexico's obligation to make sure that they don't get into the US. That's entirely the Americans responsibility.
Repatriation of refugees and undocumented immigrants are being refused by many countries. It was one problem with emptying out Gitmo.

Mexico says no to Trump's new deportation rules
Quote:
MEXICO CITY — Mexico will vigorously fight U.S. mass deportations of undocumented immigrants back to Mexico and refuse to accept any non-Mexicans expelled across the border, Mexican Foreign Minister Luis Videgaray vowed Wednesday.
Note those are two different issues.

Further:
Quote:
He added that Mexico would go to the United Nations to defend the rights of its migrants. “We are not going to accept it because we don’t have to accept it and because it is not in the interests of Mexico,” he said. ...

“Mexico is blindsided every week by the Trump administration,” said Esteban Illades, editor of the Mexican magazine Nexos. “Every time they’re about to reach an agreement, Trump changes the rules. The Mexican government keeps falling for the strategy, because deep down they still think that Trump is a rational person, which he has proven time and time again he’s not.”
Yes, they may start by objecting to those deportees who are not Mexican citizens, but you know they would also have a problem with millions of repatriated citizens. And Trump is very very bad at diplomacy.

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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:43 PM   #222
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Huh....

GOP to bury House resolution on Trump conflicts
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:47 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Including many who are not from Mexico.......
ICE numbers from 2013 suggest many but not most. OTOH, I was under the impression these folks were sent to their respective countries, certainly not just dumped across the border to the south.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:49 PM   #224
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For consideration, total cost of ownership view:

The Travel Press is Reporting the 'Trump Slump,' a Devastating Drop in Tourism to the United States

Quote:
It’s known as the “Trump Slump.” And I know of no reputable travel publication to deny it.

Thus, the prestigious Travel Weekly magazine (as close to an “official” travel publication as they come) has set the decline in foreign tourism at 6.8%. And the fall-off is not limited to Muslim travelers, but also extends to all incoming foreign tourists. Apparently, an attack on one group of tourists is regarded as an assault on all.

As far as travel by distinct religious groups, flight passengers from the seven Muslim-majority nations named by Trump were down by 80% in the last week of January and first week of February, according to Forward Keys, a well-known firm of travel statisticians. On the web, flight searches for trips heading to the U.S. out of all international locations was recently down by 17%.

A drop of that magnitude, if continued, would reduce the value of foreign travel within the U.S. by billions of dollars. And the number of jobs supported by foreign tourists and their expenditures in the United States—and thus lost—would easily exceed hundreds of thousands of workers in hotels, restaurants, transportation, stores, tour operations, travel agencies, and the like.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:50 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
They aren't contradicting him, they are just covering for his complete cluelessness.
It's simple, they just use alt-facts.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:50 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I was worried about this happening and I worried more once he picked Sessions for AG. Agree that libertarians won't like it. Not sure how much that matters. Any of the forum libertarians want to weigh in?
Quite a few Republicans have Libertarian leanings when in comes to drugs. If nothing else, they will it as a badly misplaced priority.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:51 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I was worried about this happening and I worried more once he picked Sessions for AG. Agree that libertarians won't like it. Not sure how much that matters. Any of the forum libertarians want to weigh in?
Such anti-liberty policy is why this Libertarian refused to vote for Trump.

It may backfire big with him on younger supporters.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:53 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
ICE numbers from 2013 suggest many but not most. OTOH, I was under the impression these folks were sent to their respective countries, certainly not just dumped across the border to the south.
Actually my comment came from the fact the EO's never specified that it was Mexican nationals being returned to Mexico, but just "illegal immigrants". Whether this was deliberate or just another example of incompetent drawing up of Legal Documents by the Trump white house remains to be seen.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:54 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
It's not Trump's agenda. It's Pence's.

Just like the LGBT thing yesterday. There was no reason for Trump to do anything about it. He actually had said he wasn't going to bother. But Pence wants it. Since Trump really doesn't care, he just lets him do it.

This is my thinking on his anti-abortion stuff, too. He really isn't anti-abortion. He has said in the past he is pro-choice. The problem is, he doesn't actually care. He doesn't care whether the next SC judge is anti-abortion or not. But he knows his supporters care, so he'll do it to appease them.

This crap is irrelevant to him. Sure, Mike, whatever you want. Let me get back to Twitter.
I would not be surprised , if this is true, for a number of GOP leaders to tell Pence to dial it back on this issue, which is a loser for them.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:56 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I would not be surprised , if this is true, for a number of GOP leaders to tell Pence to dial it back on this issue, which is a loser for them.
How many places with legalized pot have GOP reps and Senators?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:58 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Such anti-liberty policy is why this Libertarian refused to vote for Trump.

It may backfire big with him on younger supporters.
BTW, The comments pages on "Reason" have gone downhill since they were pretty much taken over by Trump supporters posing as Libertarians, who try to pass Donnie off as a closet Libertarain.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:59 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
How many places with legalized pot have GOP reps and Senators?

That most GOPers in congress just prefer to pretent that the federal pot laws do not exist should tell you something.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 03:00 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Actually my comment came from the fact the EO's never specified that it was Mexican nationals being returned to Mexico, but just "illegal immigrants". Whether this was deliberate or just another example of incompetent drawing up of Legal Documents by the Trump white house remains to be seen.
I vote for incompetent.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 03:02 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BTW, The comments pages on "Reason" have gone downhill since they were pretty much taken over by Trump supporters posing as Libertarians, who try to pass Donnie off as a closet Libertarain.
He does have his trollish supporter army.

And Macedonians.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 03:03 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
How many places with legalized pot have GOP reps and Senators?
Our Senators are Democrats here in WA State but we have plenty of GOP Congresspersons. There is a possibility however, that the GOP legislators in this state are unhappy about legalized pot. They never let the myth go about the dangers.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 03:19 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Indefinitely. It keeps both constituencies happy, Trump supporters and the more "moderate" GOP base...
Unfortunately sending mixed, contradictory and vague signals will also erode other countries trust in America. It will heighten international tensions because others may not be certain of what Americas leaders really want.

Trump apparently thinks this kind of uncertainty, tension and brinkmanship is a good thing. It's also a recipe for needless conflict and war.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 03:34 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Our Senators are Democrats here in WA State but we have plenty of GOP Congresspersons. There is a possibility however, that the GOP legislators in this state are unhappy about legalized pot. They never let the myth go about the dangers.
THe Swing states is where this issue will hurt them.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 04:01 PM   #238
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Bannon delivered a tirade about the "Globalist,Coporatist Press" at CPAC.
Not a huge fan of CPAC at all, but I got a feeling even some of them were rolling their eyes at Bannon's tirade.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 04:10 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The feds are going to clamp down on Pot:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...-spicer-235318

That is going to work well.
What puzzles me is why is Trump going there? He has nothing to gain politically from it, and will end any hope he had of winning over a lot of Libertarians. DUmb move.
As with many other issues, Trumpublicans want it to be left up to the states, except when they don't.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 04:48 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Bannon delivered a tirade about the "Globalist,Coporatist Press" at CPAC.
Not a huge fan of CPAC at all, but I got a feeling even some of them were rolling their eyes at Bannon's tirade.
They shouldn't be doing that to the person they elected to run the country.
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