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Old 24th February 2017, 01:49 PM   #1
Thor 2
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What are the Effects Of Atheism?

In a recent post on another thread arthwollipot suggested atheists, such as myself, were guilty of using the same tactics as the religious, who were just trying to protect themselves from "the effects of atheism", as we atheists are trying to protect ourselves from the effects of theism.

I have some difficulty with this and wonder what theists might be afraid of. I am sure someone here can help me with this.
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Old 24th February 2017, 02:02 PM   #2
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Might it be useful to quote arthwollipot's actual words, to be certain that your summary of what he is saying is what others think he was meaning?
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Old 24th February 2017, 03:22 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
In a recent post on another thread arthwollipot suggested atheists, such as myself, were guilty of using the same tactics as the religious, who were just trying to protect themselves from "the effects of atheism", as we atheists are trying to protect ourselves from the effects of theism.

I have some difficulty with this and wonder what theists might be afraid of. I am sure someone here can help me with this.
Less money for pastors and church construction and maintenance.
Personal decisions are based on logic instead of institutionalized hate. No need to shun non-believers or people of other faiths. No requirement to view homosexuals negatively based on scripture.
Less sexual dysfunction because sin and shame are not involved.
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Old 24th February 2017, 03:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Might it be useful to quote arthwollipot's actual words, to be certain that your summary of what he is saying is what others think he was meaning?

OK good idea. This is arthwollipots post:


Quote:
Can't you see that the theists are doing exactly the same thing, with the tools that they have? Our tools are reason and logic. Their tools are faith and holy scripture. What you describe as a "method" is merely a tool. You apply that tool in very similar ways.

And even apart from that, it is vitally important to realise that the motivation is the same in both cases. You say that you're working to protect yourselves and the world from the effects of theism. Theistic evangelists say that they are working to protect themselves and the world from the effects of atheism - which they believe constitutes a definite harm.

Neither side believes that they are evil. Both sides believe that they are working for the betterment of all people. Get over the demonisation of the other side and you might start to develop a useful dialogue.

Because without that, nothing substantial can be achieved.
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Old 24th February 2017, 03:49 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Less money for pastors and church construction and maintenance.
Personal decisions are based on logic instead of institutionalized hate. No need to shun non-believers or people of other faiths. No requirement to view homosexuals negatively based on scripture.
Less sexual dysfunction because sin and shame are not involved.

Well yes I agree with all that. Be interesting to hear a theists take on this, and why they think this is just too much to put up with, and unfair possibly.
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Old 24th February 2017, 04:19 PM   #6
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One of the "effects of atheism" they are afraid of is having religion outright banned. For many people, their faith is a large part of their life, and the thought that they may be forced to give that up, or face consequences, is very threatening.
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Old 24th February 2017, 04:22 PM   #7
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Okay, far be it from me to defend a position I don't personally hold, but the basic idea is this:

Everyone who isn't Saved is going to Hell. Hell is Bad. Therefore I don't want to go to Hell, and neither should you. Because I am a compassionate, loving being, I don't want you to go to Hell, so you should be Saved.

Atheism is the exact opposite of being Saved. Atheists are going to Hell. I don't want anyone to go to Hell, because as I said I am a compassionate and loving being.

Atheists spreading atheism are literally condemning more people to Hell. This is Bad. Therefore they should stop doing that. They should be Saved, so that they personally don't go to Hell and so that they stop causing other people to go to Hell.

Although, as I said, I don't hold this view myself, I fail to see why it's so hard for you to understand.
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Old 24th February 2017, 04:25 PM   #8
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I have no problem with most atheists.

It is the fanatical anti-theist/anti-religion folks that give me pause.
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Old 24th February 2017, 04:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I have no problem with most atheists.

It is the fanatical anti-theist/anti-religion folks that give me pause.
And I have no problem with most theists. But I have a problem with fanatical antitheists too.
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Old 24th February 2017, 05:29 PM   #10
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These tactics hardly apply to all theists or all atheists. However, I agree that direct confrontation helps nobody.
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Old 24th February 2017, 05:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
These tactics hardly apply to all theists or all atheists. However, I agree that direct confrontation helps nobody.
The tactics can vary. For example, religious evangelists tend to rely more on personal anecdotes and emotional appeals. Antireligious evangelists tend to rely more on ridicule and name-calling.
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Old 24th February 2017, 05:47 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
One of the "effects of atheism" they are afraid of is having religion outright banned. For many people, their faith is a large part of their life, and the thought that they may be forced to give that up, or face consequences, is very threatening.
I don't believe in banning religions. I strongly believe in the separation of church and state and the First Amendment. The state should be blind to religion. I also strongly believe churches should be taxed like any other business. I believe providing the exemption is a violation of the establishment clause as this is a clear example of the State making a law respecting a religion.
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Old 24th February 2017, 05:59 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't believe in banning religions. I strongly believe in the separation of church and state and the First Amendment. The state should be blind to religion. I also strongly believe churches should be taxed like any other business. I believe providing the exemption is a violation of the establishment clause as this is a clear example of the State making a law respecting a religion.
Might want to take another look at the actual language of the first amendment and the free exercise clause.

Religions are not just a "business."
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Old 24th February 2017, 06:05 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Religions are not just a "business."
What justification is there for keeping religion tax-free?
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Old 24th February 2017, 06:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Might want to take another look at the actual language of the first amendment and the free exercise clause.

Religions are not just a "business."
I have read it. Providing a tax exemption to what is CLEARLY A BUSINESS is making a law respecting the establishment of a religion. Taxing it is more then appropriate and doesn't impede on the exercise of that religion.

Now I know that no one has the guts to treat it as such because of the absurd status that fairy tale worship has been elevated to.
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Old 24th February 2017, 06:20 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And I have no problem with most theists. But I have a problem with fanatical antitheists too.
I consider myself anti-theistic. I try not to be anti-anybody.

I hate the term atheist. I'm not a-fairies or a-Bigfoot or a-Loch Ness monster either.

I want people to use their minds instead of being delusional. It's offensive to me that more than 50 percent of the US population thinks that evolution which has been proven with mountains of compelling evidence yet they believe in Devils and Gods for which there isn't any credible evidence for.

It's offensive to me that these people are taken in by charlatans who are authorities to their congregations. I know children that are estranged from their families because the don't buy into this fairy tale.

If religions were actually harmless I wouldn't care. Theists as arthwollipot's post says,
Quote:
Everyone who isn't Saved is going to Hell. Hell is Bad. Therefore I don't want to go to Hell, and neither should you. Because I am a compassionate, loving being, I don't want you to go to Hell, so you should be Saved.
They see it as a moral imperative to bring other's along to their afterlife and they don't care if they ruin the actual lives of the rest of us.

Does it make me a radical that I want us all to get along in a life that I KNOW we have. You know, the one that doesn't require faith.
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Old 24th February 2017, 06:26 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Antireligious evangelists tend to rely more on ridicule and name-calling.

There really shouldn't be antireligious evangelists. Anti-certain-inhuman-practicies evangelists, but not antireligious.
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Old 24th February 2017, 06:28 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What justification is there for keeping religion tax-free?
The power to tax is the power to destroy. Further the United States Constitution Specifically affords protection to Religion in the First Amendment

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I have read it. Providing a tax exemption to what is CLEARLY A BUSINESS is making a law respecting the establishment of a religion. Taxing it is more then appropriate and doesn't impede on the exercise of that religion.

Now I know that no one has the guts to treat it as such because of the absurd status that fairy tale worship has been elevated to.
An unsupported opinion that it is Clearly a Business and a juvenile accusation that it is fairy tale worship.

what a waste of *********** time.
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Old 24th February 2017, 07:02 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The power to tax is the power to destroy. Further the United States Constitution Specifically affords protection to Religion in the First Amendment



An unsupported opinion that it is Clearly a Business and a juvenile accusation that it is fairy tale worship.

what a waste of *********** time.
There is nothing juvenile about it. The idea that it is more then a fairy tale is not provable and your problem is that you've gone 'all in' on your fairy tale and it bothers you that it is what it is.

It also is DEFINITELY a BUSINESS. It generates revenue and the people that run them benefit from it. The idea that it isn't a business is absurd. It shouldn't be taxed at a higher or lower rate of other businesses, but it should be taxed. There really is no justification for its tax exemption.
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Old 24th February 2017, 07:12 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
...irrelevancy ... [T]he United States Constitution Specifically affords protection to Religion. ...additional irrelevancy...
"Article I:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "

Not a single suggestion of exempting religion from taxation.

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Old 24th February 2017, 07:13 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There is nothing juvenile about it. The idea that it is more then a fairy tale is not provable and your problem is that you've gone 'all in' on your fairy tale and it bothers you that it is what it is.

It also is DEFINITELY a BUSINESS. It generates revenue and the people that run them benefit from it. The idea that it isn't a business is absurd. It shouldn't be taxed at a higher or lower rate of other businesses, but it should be taxed. There really is no justification for its tax exemption.
was there something in my post that gave you the idea that reversing the order of your insipid 'arguments" was going to convince me?

Fairy tale and ALL CAPS! wow. Say, name absolutely any charity that you ever donated to. The MAKES REVENUE and BENEFITS people who RUN it

maybe your grossly uninformed opinion about what a BUSINESS is and what a RELIGION is could benefit from a tiny bit of critical thinking.

Jesus Christ
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Old 24th February 2017, 07:20 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
abusive irrelevancy snipped . . .

[M]aybe your grossly uninformed opinion about what a BUSINESS is and what a RELIGION is could benefit from a tiny bit of critical thinking.
Sauce for goose and gander alike. (Despite the difficulty some have with figurative language.) And a near certainty there'll be a snide yet ineffectual retort.

Quote:
Jesus Christ
He's neither present nor a participant in this exchange.

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Old 24th February 2017, 07:22 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
"Article I:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "

Not a single suggestion of exempting religion from taxation.
actually it does not mention Taxation at all.

Curious that, huh?

Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York 397 U.S. 664 (1970) 397 U.S. 664 (1970) Supreme Court: exemption of taxation appropriate to avoid excessive entanglement between coercive taxation power of Government and religion.
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Old 24th February 2017, 07:24 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Sauce for goose and gander alike. (Despite the difficulty some have with figurative language.) And a near certainty there'll be a snide yet ineffectual retort.

He's neither present nor a participant in this exchange.
Say, how about if you are going to fraudulently modify my posts in your quotes you make it absolutely clear that you are fraudulently doing so?

Thanks ever so much.
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Old 24th February 2017, 07:46 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
was there something in my post that gave you the idea that reversing the order of your insipid 'arguments" was going to convince me?

Fairy tale and ALL CAPS! wow. Say, name absolutely any charity that you ever donated to. The MAKES REVENUE and BENEFITS people who RUN it

maybe your grossly uninformed opinion about what a BUSINESS is and what a RELIGION is could benefit from a tiny bit of critical thinking.

Jesus Christ
You're not providing any reason that it isn't a business. All you're doing is asserting that it isn't. It has all the earmarks of other businesses. It generates revenue.
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Old 24th February 2017, 07:49 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're not providing any reason that it isn't a business. All you're doing is asserting that it isn't. It has all the earmarks of other businesses. It generates revenue.
Your claim, your burden.

American Red Cross made nearly 3 billion in revenue last year. Try again.
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Old 24th February 2017, 07:51 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
actually it does not mention Taxation at all.

Curious that, huh?

Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York 397 U.S. 664 (1970) 397 U.S. 664 (1970) Supreme Court: exemption of taxation appropriate to avoid excessive entanglement between coercive taxation power of Government and religion.
It's not curious. The Constitution barely mentions taxes. It certainly doesn't mention them in the Bill of Rights. I have no doubt given the clout that religion has had that there is zero chance that religion is under any danger of losing its ability to profit without taxation. Sad.
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Old 24th February 2017, 07:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Your claim, your burden.

American Red Cross made nearly 3 billion in revenue last year. Try again.
It's a charity. It actually does some good.
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:00 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's a charity. It actually does some good.
Did not take you long to abandon that utterly frivolous revenue argument.

Leaving you with.... Nothing.
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Did not take you long to abandon that utterly frivolous revenue argument.

Leaving you with.... Nothing.
Why is that surprising? Is it that your argument for this has little merit?
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:10 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why is that surprising? Is it that your argument for this has little merit?
Yeah, utterly destroying your claim is my argument for the fact that your claim was frivolous.

See how that works?
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The power to tax is the power to destroy. Further the United States Constitution Specifically affords protection to Religion in the First Amendment

An unsupported opinion that it is Clearly a Business and a juvenile accusation that it is fairy tale worship.

what a waste of *********** time.
Such christ-like expression.

Be so kind as to quote the precise words where the First Amendment specifically exempts churches from taxes, there's a lad.

ETA: I see you have admitted it does not. Well done, chook!
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:21 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Such christ-like expression.

Be so kind as to quote the precise words where the First Amendment specifically exempts churches from taxes, there's a lad.

ETA: I see you have admitted it does not. Well done, chook!
It's worse then that. Donations to churches are also tax exempt. What a great con. They get to rob us all both coming and going.
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:27 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yeah, utterly destroying your claim is my argument for the fact that your claim was frivolous.

See how that works?
Leave it to a Christian to be delusional.
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:39 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Leave it to a Christian to be delusional.
You made a claim that revenues mean BUSINESS.

An argument I destroyed with zero effort.

Now you are left with, what, religion bad?

It would appear that one effect of anti-theism is creating horrible arguments.

You read that is Supreme Court opinion I cited yet about excessive entanglement?

Obviously not, huh?
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:44 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I consider myself anti-theistic. I try not to be anti-anybody.

I hate the term atheist. I'm not a-fairies or a-Bigfoot or a-Loch Ness monster either.

I want people to use their minds instead of being delusional. It's offensive to me that more than 50 percent of the US population thinks that evolution which has been proven with mountains of compelling evidence yet they believe in Devils and Gods for which there isn't any credible evidence for.

It's offensive to me that these people are taken in by charlatans who are authorities to their congregations. I know children that are estranged from their families because the don't buy into this fairy tale.

If religions were actually harmless I wouldn't care. Theists as arthwollipot's post says,
They see it as a moral imperative to bring other's along to their afterlife and they don't care if they ruin the actual lives of the rest of us.

Does it make me a radical that I want us all to get along in a life that I KNOW we have. You know, the one that doesn't require faith.

I agree 100% with the above.

I do try to not be confrontational also, when challenging theistic posts as arthwollipot is suggesting, although that in fact can be challenging in itself when one gets stonewalled constantly, when trying to get a clear answer to a question.
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:44 PM   #37
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You made a claim that revenues mean BUSINESS.

An argument I destroyed with zero effort.

Now you are left with, what, religion bad?

It would appear that one effect of anti-theism is creating horrible arguments.

You read that is Supreme Court opinion I cited yet about excessive entanglement?

Obviously not, huh?
As I said delusional. There is a difference between a charity who's goal is to help people and religion which is to perpetrate mythology and line the pockets of the people that run the church.
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:51 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
As I said delusional. There is a difference between a charity who's goal is to help people and religion which is to perpetrate mythology and line the pockets of the people that run the church.
The death of critical thinking in action, folks.

Mistaking confirmed anti-theist prejudices for a substantive argument.

This nonsense is precisely what arthwollipot was talking about the effect of antitheist prejudices.
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:54 PM   #39
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You made a claim that revenues mean BUSINESS.

An argument I destroyed with zero effort.

Now you are left with, what, religion bad?

It would appear that one effect of anti-theism is creating horrible arguments.

You read that is Supreme Court opinion I cited yet about excessive entanglement?

Obviously not, huh?
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I agree 100% with the above.

I do try to not be confrontational also, when challenging theistic posts as arthwollipot is suggesting, although that in fact can be challenging in itself when one gets stonewalled constantly, when trying to get a clear answer to a question.
I know no other way than to be confrontational to religion's absurdities and it's atrocities. This doesn’t mean I have anything against people who believe in mythologies. I see them as victims as well.

But bad ideas whether they be in physics, chemistry or religion require sunlight. For far too long religion has enjoyed this ridiculous untouchable status. Ridiculous ideas are meant to be ridiculed. If you told me that the Earth was flat, that lobotomy was a beneficial medical procedure or that vaccines should be avoided, it would be imperative to refute these positions.

The truth is hard.
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Old 24th February 2017, 09:04 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The death of critical thinking in action, folks.

Mistaking confirmed anti-theist prejudices for a substantive argument.

This nonsense is precisely what arthwollipot was talking about the effect of antitheist prejudices.
Point out where and more importantly how I am wrong Big Dog. Don't just say my post lacks critical thinking. Address where you claim that I'm wrong. I've been a member of a church for years. I've seen my pastor drive new cars and live in a 5000 square foot home all the while begging for donations. I've been to the Vatican where there is probably a hundreds of billions of dollars of artwork that could easily be sold to you know, actually help people.

Bring something to the table. This is always the difference between the theists and the atheists.. One brings logic and reason and the other offers little but hot air. I'll let everyone else decide which is which.
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