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Old 1st March 2017, 12:51 AM   #321
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I would classify its foundations as mythological, yes. However, religion - particularly the Big Five religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism - go way past the common run-of-the-mill myths. You don't find most myths held as important parts of people's lives, for example. Myths don't have followers. That's what differentiates myth from religion. And folklore and fairy tales are different things again.
So are you defining a religion as a currently popular myth? After all, most mythology was once both popular and believed ie was a religion and that seems the only distinction.
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Old 1st March 2017, 01:03 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I just said. You just quoted.
I think he was trying to say those myths also had followers before they fell out of popularity. Ie religions are just currently popular myths.

To make it even clearer, as an example the myths of Zeus, Hercules etc are only distinguishable from the stories of the Abrahamic god and Moses etc by virtue of current popularity. People used to think those Greek stories were true or based on true events ( they possibly were albeit heavily exaggerated) and that the gods in them existed and were worthy of worship. Thus the only difference is argumentum ad (current) populum.... Or whatever the term is.

So Christianity is simply one, currently popular mythology. As is Hinduism etc
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Old 1st March 2017, 01:16 AM   #323
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The difference between myth and religion are the practices. Once the rituals and other actions fall into disuse, then all that remains are the core myths. So while it would be accurate to discuss the Christian mythology, to state that Christianity is simply a myth would be misleading.
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Old 1st March 2017, 01:28 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
The difference between myth and religion are the practices. Once the rituals and other actions fall into disuse, then all that remains are the core myths. So while it would be accurate to discuss the Christian mythology, to state that Christianity is simply a myth would be misleading.
The claimed offence was taken from religious stories being called myths. Religious stories remain myths regardless of whether they're currently believed and practiced or not. Christianity is simply based on a mythical story. Feel free to prove otherwise . . .

Religions are the result of believing mythical stories are true.
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Old 1st March 2017, 02:53 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Apart from a small definitional problem, his statement was entirely accurate.
"Entirely accurate"? Come on, arthwoliipot, you know better than that.

Be so kind (since TBD will not deign to do so) actual instances of "atheist proselytization" here on this forum.
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:06 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I would classify its foundations as mythological, yes. However, religion - particularly the Big Five religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism - go way past the common run-of-the-mill myths. You don't find most myths held as important parts of people's lives, for example. Myths don't have followers. That's what differentiates myth from religion. And folklore and fairy tales are different things again.
Actually, the fact that some people fall in thrall with particular supernatural stories does not elevate those supernatural stories beyond their mythic origin. The objectively ridiculous is no less so for being preached at three services and live video feed in an 8,000 seat mega-church.

Note: people are free to become consumed by whatever myth lures them in--but that myth should not be imposed on others (used to deport the devotees of other mythic rituals, for instance). The myths of Mohammad flying to heaven on a winged horse have the same relationship to reality as the myths of dead people rising to walk the streets of Jerusalem. Neither should be used as the basis of civil law.
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:11 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, it comes down to the definition of myth, doesn't it? And surprise surprise, that word actually does have a definition. So does "fairy tale".
Not that dictionary-shopping will settle the issue, but, oddly enough, "myth" does have a definition:

Quote:
1.a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
synonyms: folk tale, folk story, legend, tale, story, fable, saga, mythos, lore, folklore, mythology
"ancient Greek myths"

2.a widely held but false belief or idea.
"he wants to dispel the myth that sea kayaking is too risky or too strenuous"
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...UTF-8#q=myth&*

Not much upon which to base the claim that "having followers" elevates a myth to something more...
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:14 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Religions are based on stories that have never been proven to be anything but mythical. Itís not credible therefore to separate myth from religion. Religious myths obviously have heaps of followers. That some theists get upset when their religious stories are appropriately called myths is merely their denial that they are myths because they want and believe they are something more substantial than they actually are.
The sniff test: "MY myth is a real religion--no matter how objectively silly the stories are; your religion is a myth--based upon objectively silly stories."
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Old 1st March 2017, 07:13 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The claimed offence was taken from religious stories being called myths. Religious stories remain myths regardless of whether they're currently believed and practiced or not. Christianity is simply based on a mythical story. Feel free to prove otherwise . . .

Religions are the result of believing mythical stories are true.
so you believe....
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Old 1st March 2017, 07:15 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
so you believe....
You appear to have mistaken "making an unsupported assertion" for "providing evidence".

Feel free to demonstrate otherwise.
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Old 1st March 2017, 07:17 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
So are you defining a religion as a currently popular myth? After all, most mythology was once both popular and believed ie was a religion and that seems the only distinction.
So Are you defining a religion as a currently popular myth? After all, most mythology was once both popular and believed ie was a religion and that seems the only distinction.

So, see how much better?

I will answer that question: No.
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Old 1st March 2017, 08:12 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So Are you defining a religion as a currently popular myth? After all, most mythology was once both popular and believed ie was a religion and that seems the only distinction.

So, see how much better?

I will answer that question: No.
Nah, the first strike though is nothing but your personal bugaboo about the word, and the second strike through omits pertinent information. Not better at all.

Why don't you think religion is currently popular? Is this another one of those "oh, poor persecuted majority who has all the power" things?
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Old 1st March 2017, 11:45 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
so you believe....
The strength of that pathetic reply reflects the (lack of) strength of your pathetic beliefs. It's your signal of victory waving a white flag.
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Old 1st March 2017, 11:46 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The strength of that pathetic reply reflects the (lack of) strength of your pathetic beliefs. It's your signal of victory waving a white flag.
Well, that escalated quickly.

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Old 1st March 2017, 11:48 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So Are you defining a religion as a currently popular myth? After all, most mythology was once both popular and believed ie was a religion and that seems the only distinction.

So, see how much better?

I will answer that question: No.
FTFY

So, how do you define a religion then? (I have no expectation this question will be directly and honestly answered)
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Old 1st March 2017, 11:52 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, that escalated quickly.

I took your pathetic reply as an insult. You therefore began the escalation.
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Old 1st March 2017, 11:55 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I took your pathetic reply as an insult. You therefore began the escalation.

"He hit me first, mom!"
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Old 1st March 2017, 11:58 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
"He hit me first, mom!"
Exactly! You may have missed the sarcastic point I was making?

Hint – Mimicking/mocking the ploy of many theists and other paranormal believers to disingenuously claim “insult”.
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:03 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I took your pathetic reply as an insult. You therefore began the escalation.
Oh dear.... well, I am certainly very sorry that I hurt your feelings. One never really knows what deep seated self conscious doubts one will trigger and that will lead to an outburst out of all proportion to what preceded it.

I will certainly try to recall that one should NOT use the word belief to refer to your belief that there is no God.
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:08 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear.... well, I am certainly very sorry that I hurt your feelings. One never really knows what deep seated self conscious doubts one will trigger and that will lead to an outburst out of all proportion to what preceded it.

I will certainly try to recall that one should NOT use the word belief to refer to your belief that there is no God.
Thinly veiled insult upon thinly veiled insult. Oh the humanity!
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:16 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Thinly veiled insult upon thinly veiled insult. Oh the humanity!
Oh dear, did I mention a belief again?

very sorry.

Well as I believe I am having a very difficult time trying to avoid offending your.... position (insistence?) that you do not have beliefs, I believe that I will moving along for a while, and commend you on the certainty of your.... convictions.
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:25 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well as I believe I am having a very difficult time trying to avoid offending your.... position (insistence?) that you do not have beliefs,
Perhaps you missed, ignored, lacked the ability to read and comprehend this post? (or are willfully lying) . . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post

I have no god or other paranormal beliefs that Iím aware of. I donít know everything so of course I have other forms of beliefs. These beliefs are essentially fillers for lack of knowledge, and I prefer not to use them to make important life decisions.

I believe some things that I donít currently know. Whether I believe something or not, and how strongly I believe it, depends on itís importance and credibility. Itís neither important nor credible to me that any god exists.
Hope the hiliting is of some help.
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:47 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Since you know it isn't true, why does it bother you so much? Insulting them back doesn't really accomplish anything but show that anyone can be a jerk.
Funny thing, the exact same can be said of the theists too. Since they "know it's true", why would someone calling it a fairy tale or myth be at all bothersome?


Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And they give the rest of us atheists an undeserved bad rep.
I'm not gonna address the rest of the snipped concern trolling, but as to this part ó I don't really understand the mindset. It's someone else's behavior, not mine; how can it possibly be a reflection on me and what I do or say or believe?


Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If your argument is that Lutherans, Calvinists and Catholics fixate on being miserable sinners, then yeah, there's no way I'd disagree with that. But that does not even remotely represent the full spread of Christianity.
I of course do not speak as any kind of authority on the subject, but as a former Lutheran and son to a (now retired) Lutheran pastor and grandson to a Lutheran pastor and missionary, I think that only the more conservative branch of Lutheranism does any real focusing on being a "miserable sinner." The modern and liberal Lutheran branch(es) pretty much say, "yeah, we're all sinners, so now what" and that's about it.



Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well that would perhaps suggest that having a belief is a bad thing. Certainly you have beliefs.

I believe that I make the best damn Chili in cook county.

See, what do you believe? Other than there is no god of course....
Jinkies!

Wow, there ya go again, conflating the important nuances of words and bludgeoning them in a rough approximation of what you consider to be "logic".

Astounding! Well, maybe you'll get better at it as time goes on! Just pay closer attention to the people who take time out of their day to correct your faulty reasoning, kay?

Fantastic!



Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Excuse me. I have never said that I believe that "it is better to humour their condition" or anything like it. So when you said that I believe that, you were telling me what I believe, in utter and complete contradiction to what I actually believe.

If you had given me any reason to respect you as a person, I would demand an apology. But I know that one would not be forthcoming, because you don't believe - and you will never believe - that you have done anything wrong.
He wasn't being proscriptive, just descriptive.



Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
so you believe....
Whoa nelly!

Y'know, recently I read about someone who loved to claim the "rule of so" and defines it as the word "so" followed by a strawman.

And, looky here, a textbook example of it done by the neologist himself! Amazing! Great work there! Outstanding!

Of course, you really should avoid those strawmen, y'know.

Sad. SMH
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:59 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Whoa nelly!

Y'know, recently I read about someone who loved to claim the "rule of so" and defines it as the word "so" followed by a strawman.

And, looky here, a textbook example of it done by the neologist himself! Amazing! Great work there! Outstanding!

Of course, you really should avoid those strawmen, y'know.

Sad. SMH
Thanks! Glad to see people spreading the word about it!
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Old 1st March 2017, 01:20 PM   #345
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Would really like some input from you The big Dog on this.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Just to get this back on track and if we look at the flip side again, the effects of theism are well known and recorded in history.

In recent history it can be claimed that the safety of children is compromised by theism, if we look at the results of the investigations into child sex abuse of late. The Catholic Church being the worst offender.

It occurs to me that Catholics in general have been let off lightly here.

Muslims generally in our society are called to account for the actions of a small number of extremists. Clerical leaders and lay Muslims are asked to condemn the actions of these few to distance themselves from blame.

Where is the call for Catholics to do the same? The damage done by the Catholic Church is far far greater.

Would like to get some input from The Big Dog here, once he has gotten over defining atheism as a belief system that is.

I know you artfully dodged it last time claiming I had changed the subject, but I suggest it is much more on subject, than your attempts to define atheism as a belief system.

If we are to consider The Effects of Atheism it is relevant to line it up beside The Effects of Theism and make a comparison.

How about it? Any nigglings of the conscience about stuff done by the Catholic Church in the past and more recently?
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Old 1st March 2017, 01:51 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks! Glad to see people spreading the word about it!
Still waving the white flag of victory.
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Old 1st March 2017, 02:54 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks! Glad to see people spreading the word about it!
Yeah, exactly! It's a ridiculous piece of nonsense disguised as some sort of new logical fallacy, but... it isn't. Ya see, if a strawman argument is being made, there is already a term for it. Called a 'strawman' argument. The so-called "rule of so" is a simpering and idiotic dismissal based on the fact the person doesn't wish to address the points being made yet wants to sound sophisticated and intelligent at the same time.
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:06 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Yeah, exactly! It's a ridiculous piece of nonsense disguised as some sort of new logical fallacy, but... it isn't. Ya see, if a strawman argument is being made, there is already a term for it. Called a 'strawman' argument. The so-called "rule of so" is a simpering and idiotic dismissal based on the fact the person doesn't wish to address the points being made yet wants to sound sophisticated and intelligent at the same time.
So, at no time in the history of English expression has the word "So," been followed by a blatant strawman and that the points that follow the word so are indeed a priori valid?

That is a bold position and I hope to God that you are able to defend it!
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:21 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So, at no time in the history of English expression has the word "So," been followed by a blatant strawman and that the points that follow the word so are indeed a priori valid?

That is a bold position and I hope to God that you are able to defend it!
Isn't it ironic . . . don'tcha think?
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:25 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So, at no time in the history of English expression has the word "So," been followed by a blatant strawman and that the points that follow the word so are indeed a priori valid?

That is a bold position and I hope to God that you are able to defend it!
I know it's difficult, but please don't be ridiculous. I'm also utterly unsurprised that you'd attempt to read much more into what I said than what I actually said.

If an argument or statement is a strawman, then point out that it's a strawman and why it is such. That's it. In fact, if I had my druthers, I'd make it a damn rule that everyone who throws around logical fallacy terms must provide the reason why or get yellow carded. They are way overutilized on this site and a fair portion are completely wrong.

Nonetheless, that the word "so" is sometimes utilized at the beginning of a statement or question does in no way mean that what follows is inevitably a strawman argument.

I hope it was intentional irony, but it seems that your post that I quoted is in fact a strawman. You assigned a position to me then declared it to be "a bold position" ó a position which I do not hold nor did I espouse.
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:25 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Isn't it ironic . . . don'tcha think?
No, no, no. The lyric is, "Isn't it romantic." Get it right, dammit.

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Old 1st March 2017, 03:26 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Isn't it ironic . . . don'tcha think?
His last few posts at me were triggered because of his other "rule of so" violation which I pointed out.
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:31 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I know it's difficult, but please don't be ridiculous. I'm also utterly unsurprised that you'd attempt to read much more into what I said than what I actually said.

If an argument or statement is a strawman, then point out that it's a strawman and why it is such. That's it. In fact, if I had my druthers, I'd make it a damn rule that everyone who throws around logical fallacy terms must provide the reason why or get yellow carded. They are way overutilized on this site and a fair portion are completely wrong.

Nonetheless, that the word "so" is sometimes utilized at the beginning of a statement or question does in no way mean that what follows is inevitably a strawman argument.

I hope it was intentional irony, but it seems that your post that I quoted is in fact a strawman. You assigned a position to me then declared it to be "a bold position" ó a position which I do not hold nor did I espouse.
So, anyone who uses critical thinking and points out fallacies should be sanctioned, nay, banned from this website for skeptics? I do not think I can agree with this new radical agenda.
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:32 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I have no idea what you mean by that question.
Strange, I know what the question means and I will answer it for myself.

My move to atheism gave me a tremendous sense of relief, as I could then see that I was not destined for a future of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Shedding religion opened my eyes so I could see the World more clearly.

Quote:
Excuse me. I have never said that I believe that "it is better to humour their condition" or anything like it. So when you said that I believe that, you were telling me what I believe, in utter and complete contradiction to what I actually believe.

If you had given me any reason to respect you as a person, I would demand an apology. But I know that one would not be forthcoming, because you don't believe - and you will never believe - that you have done anything wrong.

And what have we here. The oh so sensitive to believers arthwollipot being somewhat less than sensitive to a fellow atheist.
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:33 PM   #355
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So, I think I have made my point.

So, drops mic
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:38 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
His last few posts at me were triggered because of his other "rule of so" violation which I pointed out.
Yep, I've been "keeping up". "His" - Has gender been established?
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:45 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So, anyone who uses critical thinking and points out fallacies should be sanctioned, nay, banned from this website for skeptics? I do not think I can agree with this new radical agenda.
I'm too incapacitated with laughter to respond (talk about fish in a barrel). . .
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:46 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So, I think I have made my point.

So, drops mic
Retreats waving white flag of victory . . .
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Last edited by ynot; 1st March 2017 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 1st March 2017, 05:44 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So, anyone who uses critical thinking and points out fallacies should be sanctioned, nay, banned from this website for skeptics? I do not think I can agree with this new radical agenda.
Are you trying to point out how utterly stupid the "rule of so" is by deliberately doing it? 'Cause it's working. Your repeated use of "so" followed by a strawman in this thread I'm sure is your attempt to prove yourself right. Except not every use of the word "so" is followed by a strawman, clearly, as evidenced by the times in which you've gleefully called out "rule of so!" and then proceeded to ignore the post.


Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Yep, I've been "keeping up". "His" - Has gender been established?
To my satisfaction, yes. I had thought that at one time in one thread or another, TBD self-identified as male.


Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Retreats waving white flag of victory . . .
I'm sure he's confident that he's run circles around us poor idiots.
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Old 1st March 2017, 06:10 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Are you trying to point out how utterly stupid the "rule of so" is by deliberately doing it? 'Cause it's working. Your repeated use of "so" followed by a strawman in this thread I'm sure is your attempt to prove yourself right. Except not every use of the word "so" is followed by a strawman, clearly, as evidenced by the times in which you've gleefully called out "rule of so!" and then proceeded to ignore the post.



To my satisfaction, yes. I had thought that at one time in one thread or another, TBD self-identified as male.



I'm sure he's confident that he's run circles around us poor idiots.
Golly gosh, Mr. Norseman, I sure did not mean to make you mad at me.

You see, many people start their posts with so and then follow it with a blatant strawman so obvious that a few critical thinkers here adopted the shorthand rule of so rather than point out the obvious.

I have been well and duly chastised, and from now on will forsake the shorthand and instead spell out the blatant strawman as if explaining it to a child.

Gotta admit that it was pretty funny how people jumped on it when I started violating the rule.... That they claimed did not exist.
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