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Old 9th March 2017, 05:09 PM   #121
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Right, but the point about 'it'd show in their books' applies to neither.
Only if your next point is true:

Quote:
In that case, the same issue comes up again, this isn't something companies are doing on purpose in most cases.
Well that sounds like it's getting into unfalsifiable territory, doesn't it? I mean, first it was sexism, then only discrimination, now it's entirely unconscious.
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Old 9th March 2017, 05:36 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Very true. For example, 32 Everyday Things Women Do That Men Don't Have to Worry About:

33. Completely concealing your hair in public
34. ditto arms
35. wearing a Middle Eastern costume instead on normal Western clothing.
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Old 9th March 2017, 07:41 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Only if your next point is true:



Well that sounds like it's getting into unfalsifiable territory, doesn't it? I mean, first it was sexism, then only discrimination, now it's entirely unconscious.

Um, those things aren't actually in conflict with each other. Something can be one, two, or all of those.
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Old 9th March 2017, 07:45 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Um, those things aren't actually in conflict with each other. Something can be one, two, or all of those.
Well I guess you haven't followed what I'm saying: the argument's moved from the specific to the general, which often indicates that the argument has no basis, and that the person making it is moving the goalposts.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:12 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do they have to worry about it because an actual risk exists, or because they perceive that a risk exists?
The actual risk exists.
A while back I sat and listened to my wife, sister and two nieces (40+, 30+, 20+yrs) recount their experiences with being followed, confronted, groped, photographed, hit on and generally harassed by men.
Each of these experiences were when they were merely going about their business, going to/from work, shopping etc. - not in bars and clubs - in public places

What horrified me as much as the level of each harassment, was the number and frequency of the harassment. These women are not given over to exaggeration, hyperbole or "histrionics", and were merely sitting around recounting their experiences.
Their experiences were way more aggressive or intense and frequent than anything I have encountered (including being "hit on" by both men and women) as well as me being exposing myself to far more potentially dangerous environments than just commuting to and from work.

So yes, in my personal experience, women face more actual risks of personal attack, and more frequently, than men do. I'd not be surprised if there was actual data out there that also supported these personal experiences.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:13 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well I guess you haven't followed what I'm saying: the argument's moved from the specific to the general, which often indicates that the argument has no basis, and that the person making it is moving the goalposts.
Expect that's not what happened. It went from 'is this happening,' to, 'this is why we know that it is', to, 'these are the plausible mechanisms'. The only thing that's more general there is going from 'sexism' to 'discrimination', and even that is not complete because not all sexism will result in workplace discrimination.

I know it's long, but the StarTalk episode really has some good points.
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:09 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do they have to worry about it because an actual risk exists, or because they perceive that a risk exists?
Looking at the very first one in the list, it is obviously perceived risk. Aren't men more likely to be victims of violence?
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:50 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Looking at the very first one in the list, it is obviously perceived risk. Aren't men more likely to be victims of violence?
This is not just, or even, about physical violence - it is about sexual violence.

So then the answer to your question would be,
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Old 10th March 2017, 12:19 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Using up all your paid sick time and having to take unpaid time off isn't unjust.
How is that not unjust?
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Old 10th March 2017, 03:11 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
The actual risk exists.
A while back I sat and listened to my wife, sister and two nieces (40+, 30+, 20+yrs) recount their experiences with being followed, confronted, groped, photographed, hit on and generally harassed by men.
Each of these experiences were when they were merely going about their business, going to/from work, shopping etc. - not in bars and clubs - in public places

What horrified me as much as the level of each harassment, was the number and frequency of the harassment.
When you look at anecdotes, you'll find tons of horrible things. But it doesn't make it necessarily a widespread or common occurance. It'll also surely dependon what country or area you live in. And as others have pointed out, a lot of men have to take the same precautions.

Quote:
This is not just, or even, about physical violence - it is about sexual violence.
...and we know men aren't really victims of that, right?
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Old 10th March 2017, 04:33 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Basically, the problem of having children as it relates to the workforce (past the pregnancy itself), should be very evenly distributed between men and women, yet it is not. Employers just assume those costs come with hiring women, but not men.
All men and women? Or just those that choose to have babies?
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Old 10th March 2017, 04:53 AM   #132
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Quote:
1. Carrying your keys in your hand as a “weapon” when walking alone at night.
I've done this. But you've probably never been to Hull
Quote:
2. And turning your headphones off to make sure you’re not being followed.
Don't use headphones, for this reason.

Quote:
3. Nailing the “I’m-walking-quickly-but-not-so-quick-that-you’ll-sense-my-fear” pace when someone is behind you.
Done this

Quote:
7. Sitting near other women on public transport to minimise the risk of being harassed/attacked.
I've sat next to blokes with similar concerns. I sometimes wonder if I have a "harass me" sign on my head.
Quote:
8. Avoiding being out altogether if it’s too early in the morning or too late at night because it doesn’t seem safe.
much the same as previous points.

Please be aware that young men are about the most likely demographic to be the victim of violent crime.
Quote:
9. Pretending to be on the phone in any number of situations to avoid harassment.
Didn't have a phone when this was an issue, but sure would have been handy.
Quote:
10. Wearing a wedding ring to reduce the chances of men hitting on/harassing you, because they respect another man’s “property” more than a woman’s right to say no.
I wear a wedding ring. Its come in handy as well, for this issue, as women also hit on men. I do recognise its a different scale of issue, but the way the above is worded is just nonsense.
Quote:
11. Giving men fake names and phone numbers rather than risking their anger at being rejected.
Ever been faced with a woman being rejected?
Quote:
12. Staying silent when being verbally harassed out of fear if you fight back it’ll turn violent.
Been on the receiving end of this by both men & women in the street. The last time was a group of teenage girls, which very nearly turned violent. Scary stuff.
Quote:
15. Working hard despite the knowledge you’re being paid, on average, less than men in the same position.
Utter nonsense, as has been discussed.
Quote:
16. Qualifying statements with words like “just” and “sorry” to avoid being perceived as pushy or aggressive.
Neither of these words justify anything, but people seem to think they do, not just women.
Quote:
17. Faking being happy and perky even when you don’t feel like it to avoid being seen as a bitch.
Good manners are discrimination?! How self absorbed do you have to be?
Men are often told to "man up", but apparently that's ok.
Quote:
18. But not being TOO perky, so that people don’t think you’re stupid.
Again, we all have the responsibility to behave in certain ways in society. Its hardly a women only issue. Can you imagine a world where we all just behave how we feel all the time? Being an adult brings with it certain responsibilities.
Quote:
19. Pretending to be patient when you’re interrupted/talked over repeatedly by men.
So many times I've come across the reverse. This idea that women have superior social skills don't always translate into good conversational skills.
Quote:
20. Repeating yourself over and over again to get your point across.
Pardon?
Seriously though, there are a number of issues here, but there isn't time to cover them.
Quote:
21. Removing hair from your armpits, legs, and bikini line because on women it’s “gross” but on men it’s totally acceptable.
But men have other restrictive issues, such as shaving one's face. This is more visible than any areas mentioned above, and in many work areas, we are expected to wear a narrow choice of clothing, which is restrictive and uncomfortable. Women often have to wear heals (which is being campaigned against understandably), but no one cares about men having to wear ties etc.
Quote:
22. Spending a lot of money each month on period products, which are still considered a “luxury” by many governments.
23. Hiding said products up sleeves or in pockets when going to the bathroom in public places, because there’s still a lot of stigma around periods.
Sympathetic on issue. Why its even an issue for VAT in the UK is beyond me.
Quote:
24. Making sure the right amount of skin is covered up or risking being seen as slutty/indecent.
25. Wearing makeup because you’re conditioned to believe your bare face isn’t good enough – or heck, just because you like it – and being told you’re fake.
26. Or not wearing makeup because you don’t want to/cbf and being told you look tired or sick.
Or to put it another way - women have the choice of wearing make-up, and more clothing choices. There are consequences to those choices of course, but it does point to women having more power, as they have more choice, and can give women more social power in many circumstances.
Quote:
27. Questioning whether the tweet or Facebook status you’re about to post will result in being viciously trolled/harassed, and having to make the decision about whether it’s worth it.
Guess what - we all have those issues. There's many things I don't put on Facebook, because I don't want to get the flack. No one forces me to use social media, as its a choice.
Quote:
30. Taking the Pill if you have sex with men and want to avoid getting pregnant, because there’s still no male equivalent available.
Not only is this a sign of female power owing to being able to control one's own fertility, it is another sign of women having more choices. How many choices do men have with regard to this?
BTW, I've had the snip. The female equivalent is unlikely to get done.
Quote:
31. Living with the knowledge that the government (dominated by men) has the power to legislate against your bodily autonomy.
Women rule the world. The likelihood of any reversal on abortion are remote, even under Trump. Imagine the outrage, not just in women's groups, but society at large. I know there are laws being changed against women on this issue, but an out right ban is so unlikely, even though there have been negative movements on this issue recently.

If it were men that got pregnant, it is unlikely abortion would even be legal. Yes you read that right.
Quote:
32. And dealing with people telling you your concerns aren’t valid and you should stop complaining because “women are equal”.
While there are issues in this list (eg. abortion is still in need of campaign in many areas, sexual violence of course is of greater concern for women), many are not even close, and framing the argument so they make women worse off in so many areas does little to give one a realistic picture of the world. The eternal victim mentality is not healthy.
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Old 10th March 2017, 05:24 AM   #133
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I thought Festivus was over?

I'm all for the Airing of Grievances though.
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Old 10th March 2017, 05:52 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Women rule the world.
Well, at least, they were historically considered more important than men. Aside from a few exceptions, that is, and it'd make no sense to consider another person more important than you if they're just property.

Quote:
The eternal victim mentality is not healthy.
It's also counter-productive as it turns otherwise-reasonable people off to your cause.
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Old 10th March 2017, 06:59 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, at least, they were historically considered more important than men. Aside from a few exceptions, that is, and it'd make no sense to consider another person more important than you if they're just property.
Women weren't considered more "important", and they absolutely were considered the property of their husbands.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:04 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Women weren't considered more "important", and they absolutely were considered the property of their husbands.
The very first line in that file shows a strong bias. It's not neutral language by any stretch of the imagination.

Question: why would you sacrifice your own life for a piece of property? Ever heard of "women and children first"? That wouldn't make much sense of women were just property.

I'll agree that in many cultures women were oppressed or considered little more than property, but I'm talking about the general, not the specific.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:13 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The very first line in that file shows a strong bias. It's not neutral language by any stretch of the imagination.

Question: why would you sacrifice your own life for a piece of property? Ever heard of "women and children first"? That wouldn't make much sense of women were just property.

A poor farmer would risk his life for his cattle, I'm pretty sure. I could probably find real world examples if you needed me to?
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:20 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The very first line in that file shows a strong bias. It's not neutral language by any stretch of the imagination.
Hmmm? Which line, specifically?

All of them seem to me to be a pretty straightforward description of the actual historical evidence assembled in the research guide I linked to.

As for "women and children first", it didn't happen nearly as often as people think.

Quote:
Question: why would you sacrifice your own life for a piece of property?
That happens all the time even now, though. A quick google search turned up a number of links to stories about people getting themselves killed trying to confront and stop robbers, deaths which wouldn't have happened had they just let the thieves get away with the property they were stealing.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:26 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
A poor farmer would risk his life for his cattle, I'm pretty sure. I could probably find real world examples if you needed me to?
Come on, now. There's a difference between risking your life to save property on which your livelihood depends, and sacrificing your life to ensure your wife's survival.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:28 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Hmmm? Which line, specifically?
By marriage, the husband and wife are one person in law: that is, the very being or legal existence of the woman is suspended during the marriage...

That's a very biased way of putting it.

Quote:
As for "women and children first", it didn't happen nearly as often as people think.
That doesn't negate the principle.

As for risking your life to save property, see my post above.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:34 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
By marriage, the husband and wife are one person in law: that is, the very being or legal existence of the woman is suspended during the marriage...

That's a very biased way of putting it.
But it's nevertheless accurate. That's precisely what coverture entailed, as described in the research guide.

EDIT: And that particular sentence wasn't written by the author of the research guide, it was a quote from William Blackstone.

Quote:
That doesn't negate the principle.
It does show that it wasn't really much of a principle, and was more of a romantic myth.

Quote:
As for risking your life to save property, see my post above.
What's the difference between "risking" one's life for property, and "sacrificing" one's life for property?
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:38 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Come on, now. There's a difference between risking your life to save property on which your livelihood depends, and sacrificing your life to ensure your wife's survival.

Roughly the same thing though. No matter what the misogynistic, stone-age farmer* thinks of his wife, he knows he can't have a son without her. In fact, there's an argument that he's not risking life and limb for his wife, but for his as yet unborn son.








*unsupported cliché for example purposes only
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:41 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
What's the difference between "risking" one's life for property, and "sacrificing" one's life for property?
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Roughly the same thing though.
You must be joking. You are seriously not seeing the difference between a calculated risk-vs-benefit action and an outright forfeit of one's life to ensure the survival of another?

How the hell do you have kids when you're dead, anyway?
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:44 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You must be joking. You are seriously not seeing the difference between a calculated risk-vs-benefit action and an outright forfeit of one's life to ensure the survival of another?

How the hell do you have kids when you're dead, anyway?


Okay, I see the disconnect and where I've misunderstood.

You're talking about certain death that carries a chance of saving a loved one, rather than a calculated gamble that might end up with both alive, I think?
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:45 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You must be joking. You are seriously not seeing the difference between a calculated risk-vs-benefit action and an outright forfeit of one's life to ensure the survival of another?
Well, humans aren't machines who operate on a strict cost/benefit analysis. Plus, my link above shows that this sort of thing was incredibly rare, when it happened at all.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:49 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Okay, I see the disconnect and where I've misunderstood.

You're talking about certain death that carries a chance of saving a loved one, rather than a calculated gamble that might end up with both alive, I think?
Precisely. Ensuring, or at least almost ensuring, your own death, in order to ensure the survival of another doesn't strike me as the sort of behaviour one has relative to something that's mere property. My take on it is that calling women property, except in the aforementioned more marginal cases, is hyperbole.

Historically, class had more to do with your lot in life than gender, and in fact historically men were _always_ more at risk, and indeed put themselves at risk to safeguard the women, something their significant others fully agreed with, I'm sure. Few women wanted to participate in war, for instance.

Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Well, humans aren't machines who operate on a strict cost/benefit analysis.
Not strict, no. But who said we were?

Quote:
Plus, my link above shows that this sort of thing was incredibly rare, when it happened at all.
See above about war as an example or something that was actually rather common.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:51 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Women weren't considered more "important", and they absolutely were considered the property of their husbands.
Women were also given legal privileges which gave the husband responsibilities. This led to women being far from timid.:
""Women are more disposed to be mutinous; they stand less in fear of
the law, partly from ignorance, partly because they presume upon the privilege of their sex, and therefore in public tumults they are foremost in violence and ferocity"."
http://www.dewar4research.org/docs/skim-revisited.pdf

Also details how a husband was punished for domestic violence whether he was the victim of perp.

"No concern'd jury damage for him finds. Nor partial justice her behaviour binds".
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Old 10th March 2017, 08:07 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Women were also given legal privileges which gave the husband responsibilities. This led to women being far from timid.:
""Women are more disposed to be mutinous; they stand less in fear of
the law, partly from ignorance, partly because they presume upon the privilege of their sex, and therefore in public tumults they are foremost in violence and ferocity"."
Which is an anonymous quote referring to, as your link flat-out says, the presence of women as members and sometimes even instigators of riots and protests against food shortages in the Early Modern period. Which...doesn't actually contradict anything at my own link regarding coverture.

Quote:
Also details how a husband was punished for domestic violence whether he was the victim of perp.
Which, your link also notes, is specifically because the husband (and sometimes even his neighbors) were blamed for failing to "conform to the social norm of a man being the authority in the household".
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Old 10th March 2017, 08:12 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Not strict, no. But who said we were?
I'm saying that neither risking nor sacrificing for people or property is usually the result of "a calculated risk-vs-benefit action", as you put it. It's an emotional reaction, and is rarely logical.

Quote:
See above about war as an example or something that was actually rather common.
Women are deliberately excluded from war in most places. And in any case, wars are virtually never fought simply to "protect women". Often, military actions are specifically about property, too - revanchism has motivated far more wars than women being considered "important" has.
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Old 10th March 2017, 08:36 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
I'm saying that neither risking nor sacrificing for people or property is usually the result of "a calculated risk-vs-benefit action", as you put it. It's an emotional reaction, and is rarely logical.
But it's not irrational either. Why would you, in fact, risk your life over property? Why would that sort of thing be built into us, if not because the risk we take carries a benefit? We may not be cold machines, A'isha, but humans can and do perform risk analysis pretty quickly, and all the time.

Quote:
Women are deliberately excluded from war in most places.
Do you know why?

Because 1) men are better at war via their greater strength, and 2) because neither men nor women wanted the latter to die in battle, specifically because women were more important. Can't keep the tribe going without them. In fact, if you're going to keep most of one gender, keeping women is a smarter idea than the reverse.

Women being excluded from government, in fact, stems from this same idea, as government was largely, at first, about war.
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Old 10th March 2017, 08:48 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
I've done this. But you've probably never been to Hull

Don't use headphones, for this reason.


Done this

Yep, I've done many of those too. Maybe we should add to the list of:

32 Everyday Things Women Do That Men Don't Have to Worry About:

33. Being so self absorbed that you repost lists about things that men don't have to worry about that are false.
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Old 10th March 2017, 08:50 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
But it's not irrational either. Why would you, in fact, risk your life over property? Why would that sort of thing be built into us, if not because the risk we take carries a benefit?
Most people don't think about it, though. They simply react emotionally. And they react that way to property, even completely inanimate property, so the simple fact that people are willing to give their lives for something doesn't mean they don't still consider that thing their property.

Quote:
Do you know why?

Because 1) men are better at war via their greater strength
Something a whole lot less relevant with modern military technology.

Quote:
2) because neither men nor women wanted the latter to die in battle, specifically because women were more important. Can't keep the tribe going without them. In fact, if you're going to keep most of one gender, keeping women is a smarter idea than the reverse.
It still doesn't imply they were "more important", just that they were considered valuable, but valuable property is still property.

Quote:
Women being excluded from government, in fact, stems from this same idea, as government was largely, at first, about war.
Actually, it appeared to be more about farming - the governments of the first civilizations were established to organize and coordinate irrigation and other agricultural needs, not to wage war.
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:00 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Most people don't think about it, though.
Yes, but that's irrelevant to my point.

Quote:
Something a whole lot less relevant with modern military technology.
Less, but still relevant. Modern tech doesn't make you run faster or lift more weight.

Quote:
It still doesn't imply they were "more important", just that they were considered valuable, but valuable property is still property.
They were considered more valuable than men. I'll also remind you that, historically, most men weren't much above property, either, under that logic.

Quote:
Actually, it appeared to be more about farming - the governments of the first civilizations were established to organize and coordinate irrigation and other agricultural needs, not to wage war.
That may be further back than what I'm aware, but how were those governments composed?
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:08 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Which is an anonymous quote referring to, as your link flat-out says, the presence of women as members and sometimes even instigators of riots and protests against food shortages in the Early Modern period. Which...doesn't actually contradict anything at my own link regarding coverture.



Which, your link also notes, is specifically because the husband (and sometimes even his neighbors) were blamed for failing to "conform to the social norm of a man being the authority in the household".
Indeed, so men were responsible. This continues into law:
"The hufband is bound to provide his wife with neceffaries by law, as much as himfelf ; and if the contracts debts for them, he is obliged to pay themq : but for any thing befides neceffaries, he is not chargeable r. Alfo if a wife elopes, and lives with another man, the hufband is not chargeable even for neceffaries g ; at laft if the perfon, who furnifhes them, is fufficiently apprized of her elopement t. If the wife be indebted before marriage, the hufband is bound afterwards to pay the debt ; for he has adopted her and "

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_cent...ne_bk1ch15.asp
(Its an interesting link BTW)
The point is that this idea that women were an under class, is an over simplification. Times were different, but feminist history paints only a narrow vision of this, and neglects the fact that women had privileges, and men had responsibilities.

Basically, feminists paint women as an oppressed group at the hands of men, when history shows us that men and women have oppressed by men and women. To summarise the summary: Its complicated.
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:10 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Indeed, so men were responsible. This continues into law:
"The hufband is bound to provide his wife with neceffaries by law, as much as himfelf ; and if the contracts debts for them, he is obliged to pay themq : but for any thing befides neceffaries, he is not chargeable r. Alfo if a wife elopes, and lives with another man, the hufband is not chargeable even for neceffaries g ; at laft if the perfon, who furnifhes them, is fufficiently apprized of her elopement t. If the wife be indebted before marriage, the hufband is bound afterwards to pay the debt ; for he has adopted her and "
Pronoufing that out loud if hilariouf.
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:26 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Indeed, so men were responsible. This continues into law:
"The hufband is bound to provide his wife with neceffaries by law, as much as himfelf ; and if the contracts debts for them, he is obliged to pay themq : but for any thing befides neceffaries, he is not chargeable r. Alfo if a wife elopes, and lives with another man, the hufband is not chargeable even for neceffaries g ; at laft if the perfon, who furnifhes them, is fufficiently apprized of her elopement t. If the wife be indebted before marriage, the hufband is bound afterwards to pay the debt ; for he has adopted her and "

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_cent...ne_bk1ch15.asp
(Its an interesting link BTW)
Uh, that's the exact same Blackwell text quoted by the research guide at my link. It even contains the exact same part it quoted about how a married women had no separate legal being or existence from that of her husband and is entirely subsumed within her husband's legal identity:

"By marriage, the hufband and wife are one perfon in law l : that is, the very being or legal exiftence of the woman is fufpended during the marriage, or at leaft is incorporated and confolidated into that of the hufband : under whofe wing, protection, and cover, fhe performs every thing ; and is therefore called in our law-french a feme-covert ; is faid to be covert-baron, or under the protection and influence of her hufband, her baron, or lord ; and her condition during her marriage is called her coverture. Upon this principle, of an union of perfon in hufband and wife, depend almoft all the legal rights, duties, and difabilities, that either of them acquire by the marriage. I fpeak not at prefent of the rights of property, but of fuch as are merely perfonal. For this reafon, a man cannot grant any thing to his wife, or enter into covenant with her m : for the grant would be to fuppofe her feparate exiftence ; and to covenant with her, would be only to covenant with himfelf : and therefore it is alfo generally true, that all compacts made between hufband and wife, when fingle, are voided by the intermarriage n. A woman indeed may be attorney for her hufband o ; for that implies no feparation from, but is rather a reprefentation of, her lord. And a hufband may alfo bequeath any thing to his wife by will ; for that cannot take effect till the coverture is determined by his death"

In fact, that part is right before the part you quoted, in the same paragraph!

Quote:
The point is that this idea that women were an under class, is an over simplification. Times were different, but feminist history paints only a narrow vision of this, and neglects the fact that women had privileges, and men had responsibilities.

Basically, feminists paint women as an oppressed group at the hands of men, when history shows us that men and women have oppressed by men and women. To summarise the summary: Its complicated.
Your own link says otherwise.
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:35 AM   #157
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But this always happens: A discussion starts on these type of issues, and when things like feminist issues are criticised, it is pointed out that women had it worse years ago. This really is a diversion. Even if women did have it worse back then, why would it justify behaving as a perpetual victim today?

Surely a more healthy attitude would be to focus on those issues that actually exist, rather than those that don't (eg. gender pay gap being a problem).

I'm sure women are more likely to be the victim of drive by shouting or some other harassment, but in other areas, men will be more likely to be a victim (eg. violent crime). But in many, its just a matter of degree.

By concentrating on female victims when it is unwarranted though, you encourage this fear in women. Hardly a healthy attitude.
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:38 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes, but that's irrelevant to my point.
It is, though, because people don't act to risk their lives over something because they consider it its relative worth or importance.

Quote:
They were considered more valuable than men. I'll also remind you that, historically, most men weren't much above property, either, under that logic.
No, they were considered more valuable to men than perhaps some other property (slaves/servants, land, cattle) was to those same men. It wasn't the women making the decisions about themselves, it was the men who owned them making the decisions regarding their property.

Quote:
That may be further back than what I'm aware, but how were those governments composed?
How do you mean? In general?

It was mostly a "priest" class, those who could determine (and therefore direct) the first the best times for planting and river flooding to irrigate those crops, and then later to organize large "public works" projects to build artificial means of irrigation so the crops were less dependent on annual flooding.
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:39 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Pronoufing that out loud if hilariouf.
What idiot at Yale decided that the long s should be transcribed as f?
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Old 10th March 2017, 09:39 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
But this always happens: A discussion starts on these type of issues, and when things like feminist issues are criticised, it is pointed out that women had it worse years ago. This really is a diversion. Even if women did have it worse back then, why would it justify behaving as a perpetual victim today?
If the issue is the status of women today, why are you trying to prove that women did not have it worse back then?
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