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Old 15th March 2017, 02:55 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
These are true, and need more attention. However, how and why they are true doesn't actually negate that women who are just engaged in everyday life may indeed need to take more precautions than men generally need to in order to avoid violence.

The reasons men get involved in violence and the reasons women do (generally), aren't actually symmetrical. It can be the case that it is easier for men to generally avoid violence than women, and that they still do not.
As I alluded to earlier in the thread, I have had directly comparable issues with regard to violence that women have had. In my youth, I was in the demographic most at risk from violent crime. I am below average in terms of body weight, I'm not particularly handy in a fight, and walking alone at night in town was a risky thing to do.

How was it easier for me to avoid violence? The people that could (and did) have a go at me could run fast, no one would stick up for a bloke alone, and I certainly don't carry weapons. In fact the worst incident was when I was with a friend, and a group of rather large blokes started on us. None of this is unusual (or at least around here), so I'm at a loss as to how you think men find it easier to avoid violence.

As I think I also said earlier, I've met blokes who were varying levels of "camp"/metro-sexual etc. who were particularly concerned about their safety at night. And one bloke I met was automatically looking for a policeman on a train if he thought there was a match on that day, for his own safety.

Of course, I exclude sexual violence here, as that is obviously an issue that affects women worse, but men are still the primary victims in violent crime.
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Old 15th March 2017, 03:15 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Let's play a decision-making game.

Let's say you're entering college, and you want to go into the medical profession.

Let's say that doctors, on average, earn about $100K to start, the 5-yr salary is about $250K, and the 10-yr salary is also $250K.

Nurses, on the other hand, earn about $30K to start, the 5-yr is about $40K and the 10-yr is about $50K.

Which would you choose to study?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now let's add some more complexity to this.

Let's say that the placement rate for doctors out of school is about 50%, and the placement rate for nurses is about 80%.

Which one do you choose?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now for that last layer...

Let's say that the placement rate for male doctors out of school is about 75% and the placement rate for female doctors out of school is about 10%. The placement rate for male nurses is about 50% and the placement rate for female nurses is about 85%.

Which do you choose?

Which do you choose if you're female?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The choices that women and men make differently aren't solely a matter of "gender preference". It's also a matter of placement rate, the perception of bias in that career field, and the overall career prospects. A field that has a high male contingent, and is perceived as being less open to female employees, and has a lower likelihood of career advancement for women is less likely to be chose as a field by women. This doesn't mean that women don't like that field as much, or even that they're less interested in it. It simply means that women have brains too and consider more than just "do I like it" when they're planning out their future.
The majority of young doctors in the UK are female. However, women are more likely to later: Go part time, drop out of being a doctor all together, or just work less hours.

Where is your evidence that women are less likely to get a placement? And is there evidence that it is down to discrimination?

It has been argued in the past that quotas for men in this field would increase the value of investment we make in training doctors up. Of course, I'm not a fan of quotas.

PS: You might find this interesting:
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/heal...ender-pay-gap/
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Old 15th March 2017, 05:15 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It can be the case that it is easier for men to generally avoid violence than women, and that they still do not.
Jeez, listen to that: "those victims, they was just asking for it"

Would you ever consider saying something so crass to women? (Also, see what wobs said).
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Old 15th March 2017, 08:06 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
As I alluded to earlier in the thread, I have had directly comparable issues with regard to violence that women have had. In my youth, I was in the demographic most at risk from violent crime. I am below average in terms of body weight, I'm not particularly handy in a fight, and walking alone at night in town was a risky thing to do.

How was it easier for me to avoid violence? The people that could (and did) have a go at me could run fast, no one would stick up for a bloke alone, and I certainly don't carry weapons. In fact the worst incident was when I was with a friend, and a group of rather large blokes started on us. None of this is unusual (or at least around here), so I'm at a loss as to how you think men find it easier to avoid violence.

As I think I also said earlier, I've met blokes who were varying levels of "camp"/metro-sexual etc. who were particularly concerned about their safety at night. And one bloke I met was automatically looking for a policeman on a train if he thought there was a match on that day, for his own safety.

Of course, I exclude sexual violence here, as that is obviously an issue that affects women worse, but men are still the primary victims in violent crime.
And?

Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Jeez, listen to that: "those victims, they was just asking for it"

Would you ever consider saying something so crass to women? (Also, see what wobs said).
Not what I said.
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Old 15th March 2017, 09:20 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Very true. For example, 32 Everyday Things Women Do That Men Don't Have to Worry About:



I have not had to do all of these things, but I've done a lot of them. So please; continue to tell me how there isn't a gender gap.
That was an awesome list.

ETA, also screw the whole depilatory thing. I wear pants. When I need to dress more formally, I also wear pants. Because the furriness of my legs isn't the business of my coworkers, and I refuse to be judged on how nice my legs look.
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Old 15th March 2017, 09:21 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do they have to worry about it because an actual risk exists, or because they perceive that a risk exists?
Honestly, do you know any women?
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Old 15th March 2017, 09:23 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
#
Not sure what counter argument you are making. Having children is a voluntary choice, no one has to have children. Having children comes with costs, some of those costs may be that you can't work as many hours for your employer so why would you expect to get the same wage?

Why should having children be something that you (in effect) get paid to do?
Why are women expected to stay home to care for those kids? Why is the "decision" and its consequences only applicable to the women?
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Old 15th March 2017, 09:29 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Honestly, do you know any women?
Wow, that's the stupidest question anyone's ever asked me in the last ten years.

No, I don't know any woman. I was born fully formed from a giant Cadbury easter egg and thus have no mother, no aunts, no cousins and certainly no wife. Women are way too paranoid to approach me for some reason. Might have something to do with being told that all men are out to rape them.

But seriously -- or, more seriously -- as many other posters have pointed out, those don't apply only to women, so the entire list is nothing but an appeal to emotion that's not even grounded in reality.

And my point is valid: just because someone's afraid of something doesn't mean that thing carries a real risk. My mother's deathly afraid of elevators even though they are safer than every single mode of transportation available, including walking. Parents are paranoid about people trying to kidnap their kids and don't let them out of their sight even when the risk is vanishingly small, and the parents themselves are statistically a much greater risk, especially, it seems, the mother.

So yeah, I'm serious when I ask the question: is the risk real or imagined?
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Old 15th March 2017, 09:32 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Why are women expected to stay home to care for those kids? Why is the "decision" and its consequences only applicable to the women?
Another stupid question, as that's not at all what was said.

Women are expected to do it because, surprise, they are much more likely to do it. The social standard was built on a biological reality: female humans took care of the offspring and whatever location they were staying in while the males were out hunting. Is it "right" or "wrong"? I don't know. But I know that that's the way the species is built, and although I certainly agree with giving everyone the ability to choose, one shouldn't be surprised that more women than men sacrifice their careers to spend time home with the kids, and shouldn't be surprised when it translates into a social expectation of same.
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Old 15th March 2017, 09:39 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
When you look at anecdotes, you'll find tons of horrible things. But it doesn't make it necessarily a widespread or common occurance. It'll also surely dependon what country or area you live in. And as others have pointed out, a lot of men have to take the same precautions.
It IS widespread and common!

'What the heck kind of specially designed scientific study do you want for this?

There's a talk show on a radio station here called "The Men's Room". On this show they do a segment called "No S#!T, Sherlock". In this episode they highlight and mock cases where scientists have done studies of things that are completely obvious and apparent to anyone with a brain who has bothered to observe the world around them.

This topic is one of those things.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
...and we know men aren't really victims of that, right?
Yes, they are victims of it. At a massively lower incidence rate. A man being jumped and raped in an alley on his way to his car does occur. But it occurs so rarely that it really stands out. It happens to women pretty regularly. So much so, that apparently it's common enough to lead people to assume some degree of false equivalence here.
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Old 15th March 2017, 09:50 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
And?
You have not demonstrated this in anyway:
Quote:
The reasons men get involved in violence and the reasons women do (generally), aren't actually symmetrical. It can be the case that it is easier for men to generally avoid violence than women, and that they still do not.
In fact, another way that men are more vulnerable is that they may have to protect a women from violence (whether by stepping into a situation or by being the person that is initially attacked).

Also, you haven't even explained why men can avoid violence easier.
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:07 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It'd be more interesting -- were that true -- to know why it is this way. I'm not going to assume that it's because of discrimination just because it favours men getting paid more.
It's because of social bias. It's because there is an expectation for women to behave in certain ways, and for men to behave in different ways. Those expectations intersect with the performance expectations for different types of jobs. It results in inequities that are real, but aren't easily addressed, certainly not by law. But they are very real.

For example. Men don't cry, women are emotional. Is it all the time perfectly true? No, of course not. But that is the expectation of behavior based on gender. A man who is very emotional and cries a lot is viewed as being effeminate. He is viewed as being less of a man. His judgment is questioned. A woman who is unemotional is viewed as being cold-hearted and butch. A leadership position frequently requires the ability to set ones emotions aside and make a logical decision. A man who has the ability to do this is viewed as acting in accordance with the expectation of a man. A woman who has the ability to do this is acting in opposition to the expectation of a woman. An unemotional man who makes careful and occasionally ruthless decisions is a natural leader, and is more likely to be considered for promotion to those leadership roles. A woman who makes careful and occasionally ruthless decisions is an unapproachable robot who is unlikable and not a team player... and is less likely to be considered for promotion to those leadership roles.

Women who seek leadership positions are playing by a completely different set of rules than men are. We have to walk the line very carefully. We have to be unemotional... otherwise we're being "hysterical" and "prone to emotional outbursts". But we can't be too unemotional... because then we're unapproachable and hard to work with. We have to be decisive or we're viewed as being a typically flighty woman. But we can't be too decisive or we're perceived as pushy and domineering.

Heck, the terminology is even different. A man is rarely described as domineering - he is instead referred to as dominant. The exact same behaviors result in very different interpretations of behavior. What is often viewed as a positive attribute in men (because it aligns with the social expectation of male behavior) is viewed negatively in women (because it conflicts with the social expectation of female behavior).

If you think this isn't a real thing... I suggest you step back from what you think you know and try observing what goes on around you. Talk to the women in your life, and get their perspective on it.
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:18 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You sound way too more certain of that. Zero difference?
YEs, zero difference. Like it is literally the exact same CV, and the only difference is the name of the applicant. It's the exact same information, and it is perceived differently depending on whether the applicant is male or female.

A'isha supplied you with a link to one study with respect to STEM fields. I myself have supplied you with that same study, as well as the Heidi/Howard study and a host of others over the past couple of years.

The ONLY difference in each of those cases is the gender. Every single other detail is exactly the same. In all cases, the male is perceived as being more competent, a better fit, etc. The male is offered a higher starting salary. But the resumes and CVs are literally identical aside from gender.
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:24 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
But seriously -- or, more seriously -- as many other posters have pointed out, those don't apply only to women, so the entire list is nothing but an appeal to emotion that's not even grounded in reality.
I'm sure you'll find some rational-sounding reason to dismiss this... but have you ever noticed that in these discussions you consistently see female posters saying that this is a problem, this is something they have experienced and something that they deal with on a regular basis. You seem some male posters agreeing with them. The only people disagreeing with them are male - people who have not been exposed to this and have not experienced it because they are male.

Let me ask, very seriously, if this were an issue of race, would you hold the same view? If it were a case where all of the black posters were telling you that there is bias against black people that place them at a disadvantage, would you dismiss as being 'anecdotal'? Would you ignore the evidence of well-controlled studies? Would you insist that their differential experiences with the justice system or with job prospects were just a result of their choices?

If all of the black posters see that there's a race-based discrepancy, and some of the white posters agree with them, and the only people who disagree with that assessment were white posters... would that give you pause and cause you to consider the situation from a different angle?
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:28 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Another stupid question, as that's not at all what was said.

Women are expected to do it because, surprise, they are much more likely to do it. The social standard was built on a biological reality: female humans took care of the offspring and whatever location they were staying in while the males were out hunting. Is it "right" or "wrong"? I don't know. But I know that that's the way the species is built, and although I certainly agree with giving everyone the ability to choose, one shouldn't be surprised that more women than men sacrifice their careers to spend time home with the kids, and shouldn't be surprised when it translates into a social expectation of same.
Women are much more likely to do it because they are expected to do it.

Humans biologically are tribal animals, that mistrust outsiders. That was built on a biological reality: people from other tribes were a threat and a risk to scarce resources. It is 'right' or 'wrong'? I don't know. But that's the way the species is built. And although I agree with giving everyone the ability to choose, one shouldn't be surprised that foreigners get lower job prospects, and shouldn't be surprised when it translates into a social expectation that we give preferential treatment and better opportunities to white people than to brown people.

Does your logic still hold, or does this now constitute a naturalistic fallacy?
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:50 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm sure you'll find some rational-sounding reason to dismiss this... but have you ever noticed that in these discussions you consistently see female posters saying that this is a problem, this is something they have experienced and something that they deal with on a regular basis. You seem some male posters agreeing with them. The only people disagreeing with them are male - people who have not been exposed to this and have not experienced it because they are male.
I'm sure these things are issues for many women, and rightly so, but it seems obvious to me that if men experience these and similar issues they're not going to admit to them or talk about it, because that's how men are. Also, many, like me, don't even see it these things as problems as far as they themselves are concerned, it's just stuff that happens. Hence, on forums, over-representation.
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:52 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm sure you'll find some rational-sounding reason to dismiss this... but have you ever noticed that in these discussions you consistently see female posters saying that this is a problem, this is something they have experienced and something that they deal with on a regular basis. You seem some male posters agreeing with them. The only people disagreeing with them are male - people who have not been exposed to this and have not experienced it because they are male.

Let me ask, very seriously, if this were an issue of race, would you hold the same view? If it were a case where all of the black posters were telling you that there is bias against black people that place them at a disadvantage, would you dismiss as being 'anecdotal'? Would you ignore the evidence of well-controlled studies? Would you insist that their differential experiences with the justice system or with job prospects were just a result of their choices?

If all of the black posters see that there's a race-based discrepancy, and some of the white posters agree with them, and the only people who disagree with that assessment were white posters... would that give you pause and cause you to consider the situation from a different angle?
But the thing is outside of the Internet is a different story, I know plenty of women who would disagree with you, the fact they don't frequent this board dies not mean they don't exist.

I find that people that have these views often have social circles and Internet communities that are nothing but echo chambers, and because of this love to use the "everyone thinks this way" line of logic. (Now being the Internet I know you will reply with how your groups are as varied as mathematics allow)

What you are really saying is that people who think like you express these opinions, which of course is true. But it also doesn't advance the conversation.

From my observations the tendency to think this way is directly related to social acumen and issues with anxiety and depression. I know very few females who are very social and have no pre existing issues with anxiety or depression that think this way. Essentially it boils down to people with poor social skills telling others how to socialize.

And as to your question of race. ..

If every black person I know said something that I did not see (our did not know the severity of) I would still ask for evidence. Reason being, regardless of if I am the world's most social guy, I'm never going to talk to even one per cent of all black people, so talking my tiny sample and extrapolating it to all black people is both racist as hell , and totally spits in the face of my position as a Skeptic.
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:53 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It IS widespread and common!

'What the heck kind of specially designed scientific study do you want for this?

There's a talk show on a radio station here called "The Men's Room". On this show they do a segment called "No S#!T, Sherlock". In this episode they highlight and mock cases where scientists have done studies of things that are completely obvious and apparent to anyone with a brain who has bothered to observe the world around them.

This topic is one of those things.
Oh, well, if you say so, I guess I'll just have to change my mind and take your word for it.

But really, I appreciate that you're calling me stupid for not agreeing with your conclusion (highlighted). I thought you said it was a bad idea to insult other people when trying to win them over? I guess that only works for other people, then.

Tons of things were bleeding obvious, Cat, before we found them to be false. Our personal experience is one thing that gives us a bias about what's supposed to be "obvious". That's why I don't accept anecdotes as evidence of a larger problem.

Quote:
Yes, they are victims of it. At a massively lower incidence rate.
And what about other violent crimes? Ah, yes. Those don't count.

Quote:
It's because of social bias.
That's another unwarranted conclusion. Seriously, just offering me the solution doesn't mean that the solution is the correct one. Oh, can't explain why the universe exists? Well, see, I told you that Christianity has the correct explanation!

Quote:
Men don't cry, women are emotional.
Those are two entirely different things. One is an expectation, the other an observation.

Quote:
I'm sure you'll find some rational-sounding reason to dismiss this... but have you ever noticed that in these discussions you consistently see female posters saying that this is a problem, this is something they have experienced and something that they deal with on a regular basis. You seem some male posters agreeing with them. The only people disagreeing with them are male - people who have not been exposed to this and have not experienced it because they are male.
I'm sure you think this is somehow relevant... except that it isn't. First of all, you don't know the gender of posters here. Second, even if it were true it wouldn't make any difference. Third, several male posters have said that they themselves take the same precautions, which means that they are not unique to women, as opposed to what the poster claimed.

Quote:
Let me ask, very seriously, if this were an issue of race, would you hold the same view? If it were a case where all of the black posters were telling you that there is bias against black people that place them at a disadvantage, would you dismiss as being 'anecdotal'?
I love how you casually conflate two parts of the discusion and expect me to not notice. First of all, if a black person said that black people have to expect X, I would indeed ask if it's a perception or a real thing. And I notice that to my request you have no response but to insist that the problem exists. Second, there are real biological differences between men and women which don't translate between "races", so the issue of whether an effect is due to discrimination is different between the question of sexism and that of racism.

Quote:
Women are much more likely to do it because they are expected to do it.
NO! That is entirely false. I've made it very clear that I was talking about humans in the wild where this expectation wouldn't exist. That you ignore that completely is very telling.

Quote:
Does your logic still hold, or does this now constitute a naturalistic fallacy?
No, it's just another stupid response from you. It has literally nothing to do with my own post. You made ZERO effort to understand what I'm telling you. All that seems to matter is that you KNOW that you're already correct and don't care at all about whatever anyone else has to say about the topic.
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:55 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'm sure these things are issues for many women, and rightly so, but it seems obvious to me that if men experience these and similar issues they're not going to admit to them or talk about it, because that's how men are. Also, many, like me, don't even see it these things as problems as far as they themselves are concerned, it's just stuff that happens. Hence, on forums, over-representation.
This reads as if you acknowledge that there is a bias, and that it adversely affects women more than men, but that since it doesn't affect you it's just not a big deal.

Is that what you're trying to say?
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:57 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
But the thing is outside of the Internet is a different story, I know plenty of women who would disagree with you, the fact they don't frequent this board dies not mean they don't exist.

I find that people that have these views often have social circles and Internet communities that are nothing but echo chambers, and because of this love to use the "everyone thinks this way" line of logic. (Now being the Internet I know you will reply with how your groups are as varied as mathematics allow)

What you are really saying is that people who think like you express these opinions, which of course is true. But it also doesn't advance the conversation.

From my observations the tendency to think this way is directly related to social acumen and issues with anxiety and depression. I know very few females who are very social and have no pre existing issues with anxiety or depression that think this way. Essentially it boils down to people with poor social skills telling others how to socialize.

And as to your question of race. ..

If every black person I know said something that I did not see (our did not know the severity of) I would still ask for evidence. Reason being, regardless of if I am the world's most social guy, I'm never going to talk to even one per cent of all black people, so talking my tiny sample and extrapolating it to all black people is both racist as hell , and totally spits in the face of my position as a Skeptic.
Are you implying that I only hold these views because I'm probably depressed and anxious, and lack social acumen?
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:02 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This reads as if you acknowledge that there is a bias, and that it adversely affects women more than men, but that since it doesn't affect you it's just not a big deal.

Is that what you're trying to say?
For ****'s sake, Cat, read his damned post. That's not at all what he said.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Are you implying that I only hold these views because I'm probably depressed and anxious, and lack social acumen?
No but it's starting to be clear that you have reading comprehension problems.
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:02 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's because of social bias. It's because there is an expectation for women to behave in certain ways, and for men to behave in different ways. Those expectations intersect with the performance expectations for different types of jobs. It results in inequities that are real, but aren't easily addressed, certainly not by law. But they are very real.

For example. Men don't cry, women are emotional. Is it all the time perfectly true? No, of course not. But that is the expectation of behavior based on gender. A man who is very emotional and cries a lot is viewed as being effeminate. He is viewed as being less of a man. His judgment is questioned. A woman who is unemotional is viewed as being cold-hearted and butch. A leadership position frequently requires the ability to set ones emotions aside and make a logical decision. A man who has the ability to do this is viewed as acting in accordance with the expectation of a man. A woman who has the ability to do this is acting in opposition to the expectation of a woman. An unemotional man who makes careful and occasionally ruthless decisions is a natural leader, and is more likely to be considered for promotion to those leadership roles. A woman who makes careful and occasionally ruthless decisions is an unapproachable robot who is unlikable and not a team player... and is less likely to be considered for promotion to those leadership roles.

Women who seek leadership positions are playing by a completely different set of rules than men are. We have to walk the line very carefully. We have to be unemotional... otherwise we're being "hysterical" and "prone to emotional outbursts". But we can't be too unemotional... because then we're unapproachable and hard to work with. We have to be decisive or we're viewed as being a typically flighty woman. But we can't be too decisive or we're perceived as pushy and domineering.

Heck, the terminology is even different. A man is rarely described as domineering - he is instead referred to as dominant. The exact same behaviors result in very different interpretations of behavior. What is often viewed as a positive attribute in men (because it aligns with the social expectation of male behavior) is viewed negatively in women (because it conflicts with the social expectation of female behavior).

If you think this isn't a real thing... I suggest you step back from what you think you know and try observing what goes on around you. Talk to the women in your life, and get their perspective on it.
Are you not arguing that both men, and women, who are seen as emotional are likely to suffer for it in the workplace?

Are you further asserting that women are unique in needing to manage their image WRT a balance on the "emotional----stoic" scale in order to advance?
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:03 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
You have not demonstrated this in anyway:
That isn't what your post was getting at though. It didn't actually speak against that idea. All it did was supply some examples of men who have had experiences that many if not most women go through on a consistent basis.

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In fact, another way that men are more vulnerable is that they may have to protect a women from violence (whether by stepping into a situation or by being the person that is initially attacked).

Also, you haven't even explained why men can avoid violence easier.

This example actually adds to my hypothesis though. The way men can avoid that is by declining. Further, it supports my idea that men are conditioned by society to accept their place in violence. Many of the most common types of violence that men experience can be avoided by declining or just walking away. Don't get hung up on the fact that not every man and every women have the experiences I'm talking about, because I'm talking about tendencies not absolutes. The kinds of violence women generally deal with tends to come to them, men tend to go to the violence that they generally deal with.

Also, please see my previous posts because I've put in a lot of exceptions and caveats to this.
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:03 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
and lack social acumen?
You did say you're an actuary, right?
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:05 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
And what about other violent crimes? Ah, yes. Those don't count.
They count in other contexts. They are irrelevant in this context.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Those are two entirely different things. One is an expectation, the other an observation.
"Women are emotional" is an observation? Just... wow.

Regarding the remainder of your post... you insist on proof and evidence. When proof and evidence are presented, you insist that somehow it's either not relevant, not accurate, or in some other way doesn't matter to the discussion. You insist that there's a biological reason that supports the social outcomes being observed. I know that I have presented at least 3 separate studies related to gender bias in the workplace, and that all 3 of those are reliable well-designed studies. In all 3 of them, the resumes and CVs of the person under consideration is identical, and the only difference is the gender of the person being considered. In all of those cases, there was a preference given to the males over the females - preferences that directly and literally translate to males being more likely to be hired and more likely to be offered a higher salary.

You have been ignoring this evidence for a couple of years now.
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:09 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Are you not arguing that both men, and women, who are seen as emotional are likely to suffer for it in the workplace?

Are you further asserting that women are unique in needing to manage their image WRT a balance on the "emotional----stoic" scale in order to advance?
Yes, both men and women who are emotional in the workplace suffer for it. the difference is that because there is a social expectation of women being emotional... a woman who is NOT emotional is penalized for that as well.

A man who is emotional is unfit for a leadership position.
A woman who is emotional is unfit for a leadership position.
A man who is emotionless is viewed as decisive and unemotional and is fit for a leadership position.
A woman who is emotionless is viewed as cold and difficult to work with and is unfit for a leadership position.

Men are damned if you do.
Women are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:10 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
You did say you're an actuary, right?
Yes, but I'm an actuary that supports sales and marketing. I married an artist, and I use color on a regular basis

ETA: I'm also a senior manager of a highly-skilled team. But it's been harder for me to get to this position than for my male counterparts, who have consistently been promoted at a faster pace than women in my subject area.
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:10 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
But the thing is outside of the Internet is a different story, I know plenty of women who would disagree with you, the fact they don't frequent this board dies not mean they don't exist.

I find that people that have these views often have social circles and Internet communities that are nothing but echo chambers, and because of this love to use the "everyone thinks this way" line of logic. (Now being the Internet I know you will reply with how your groups are as varied as mathematics allow)

What you are really saying is that people who think like you express these opinions, which of course is true. But it also doesn't advance the conversation.

From my observations the tendency to think this way is directly related to social acumen and issues with anxiety and depression. I know very few females who are very social and have no pre existing issues with anxiety or depression that think this way. Essentially it boils down to people with poor social skills telling others how to socialize.

And as to your question of race. ..

If every black person I know said something that I did not see (our did not know the severity of) I would still ask for evidence. Reason being, regardless of if I am the world's most social guy, I'm never going to talk to even one per cent of all black people, so talking my tiny sample and extrapolating it to all black people is both racist as hell , and totally spits in the face of my position as a Skeptic.

From my observations especially in settings that are teaching self-defense and martial arts, the women who tend to not think that way are either unaware of they are dealing with the issue, or unaware that many men do not. It works the other way to, with men who don't think these things can be larger issues for women simply not having realized what women are doing already to mitigate the situation.

I'm fully aware that as a large man, there are many kinds of violence I can avoid or mitigate in ways not available to others, and kinds of violence that will be more prone to targeting me. I know that I'm a target for individuals who want to prove their 'hardness' to a group, who will not be shy of joining in, but have also avoided prolonged combat by laughing off someone sucker punching me (on more than one occasion in fact). Being aware of these nuances should never be a contest of who has it 'worse' or who is to 'blame', but about how we can address them. People get so hung up on the baggage that they miss the flight.
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:12 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
They count in other contexts. They are irrelevant in this context.
That's terribly convenient. Oh, those poor women victims of violence! Think of those poor women! Oh, what's that you say? Men are more often victims of violence? Why, that's irrelevant in this context.

Quote:
"Women are emotional" is an observation? Just... wow.
I love how your counter-argument is just throwing your arms up.

It's no secret that men and women emote differently. Emotion is chemical and our chemistries are different, sister. People have been noting that for thousands of years. It's not that women are really "more" emotional. It's that they display emotion in a way that people interpreted as more emotional, but it doesn't mean that the observation is without merit even with the amendment. 'Course, it's entirely possible that women have a harder time ignoring their emotions, but I'd need to see evidence for that.

Quote:
Regarding the remainder of your post... you insist on proof and evidence.
Yes, damn that skepticism!

Quote:
When proof and evidence are presented, you insist that somehow it's either not relevant, not accurate, or in some other way doesn't matter to the discussion.
I hope you're not refering to Sabrina's list or to your last few posts, because that isn't what "evidence" means. Hopefully you're refering to the aforementioned studies.

Quote:
You insist that there's a biological reason that supports the social outcomes being observed.
How dare I mention facts?

Quote:
In all 3 of them, the resumes and CVs of the person under consideration is identical, and the only difference is the gender of the person being considered.
I haven't discounted that. I expressed doubt that there was no other difference, but you clarified that. How does that somehow work against the hypothesis that there are biological reasons behind this? Never mind the cultural reasons.

Quote:
You have been ignoring this evidence for a couple of years now.
BS. I haven't ignored anything. As usual you're conflating several parts of the discussion to prop up certain claims you've made that aren't supported by evidence by playing switcharoo with other, more supported ones.
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:15 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men are damned if you do.
Women are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
That's not entirely true, though, is it? If we expect women to be emotional, then it's more likely to be seen as normal and for them to avoid negative consequences for displaying emotion.
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:38 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yes, both men and women who are emotional in the workplace suffer for it. the difference is that because there is a social expectation of women being emotional... a woman who is NOT emotional is penalized for that as well.

A man who is emotional is unfit for a leadership position.
A woman who is emotional is unfit for a leadership position.
A man who is emotionless is viewed as decisive and unemotional and is fit for a leadership position.
A woman who is emotionless is viewed as cold and difficult to work with and is unfit for a leadership position.

Men are damned if you do.
Women are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I disagree. Men who are seen as too cold and aloof also suffer. There is a substantial amount of emotional response required of men who wish to advance in most career settings.
Further, different careers and business cultures require differing amounts of emotional engagement in order to be seen as fit for a given position.

In any case, either gender is required to manage their emotional image at both ends of the spectrum in order to advance.
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Old 15th March 2017, 11:48 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I disagree. Men who are seen as to cold and aloof also suffer. There is a substantial amount of emotional response required of men who wish to advance in most career settings.
I think one problem is that when people use the word "emotional" they don't always means the same thing. I hinted to that in an earlier post, but when people say that women are more "emotional" than men (even women say this) they don't mean that they have more emotions, necessarily, but that, for example, the way in which they let their emotions out or the way they are at least perceived to let their emotions cloud or affect their judgment is seen as detrimental in a professional environment.
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Old 15th March 2017, 12:12 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This reads as if you acknowledge that there is a bias, and that it adversely affects women more than men, but that since it doesn't affect you it's just not a big deal.

Is that what you're trying to say?
Er, a) By whom? b) What is 'it'? c) No.
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Old 15th March 2017, 12:20 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's terribly convenient. Oh, those poor women victims of violence! Think of those poor women! Oh, what's that you say? Men are more often victims of violence? Why, that's irrelevant in this context.
Oh those poor black people! They're the victims of poverty! Think of the poor black peole. Oh, what's that you say? White people are often victims of poverty too? Why, that's irrelevant in this context when the context is how social biases and conventions contribute to a disparate and persistent poverty rate among black americans.

Oh My! Men fight in wars, so they get shot at way more than women... therefore women getting raped at a significantly higher rate than man just doesn't matter, because it's all violence, right?

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I love how your counter-argument is just throwing your arms up.

It's no secret that men and women emote differently. Emotion is chemical and our chemistries are different, sister. People have been noting that for thousands of years. It's not that women are really "more" emotional. It's that they display emotion in a way that people interpreted as more emotional, but it doesn't mean that the observation is without merit even with the amendment. 'Course, it's entirely possible that women have a harder time ignoring their emotions, but I'd need to see evidence for that.
1) Don't call me sister. We are not familiar enough for you to engage in any sort of diminutive pet-names.

2) People have also been noting for thousands of years how much better men are at math and science and hard work and making decisions and being smart.

Has it occurred to you that women emote differently because women are expected to show their emotion more openly? Women are expected to have less emotional control? It has been consistently reinforced through social expectations that real men don't show their emotion, only girls do that. Real men don't cry, suck it up, hold it in. Don't act like a little girl. Don't get all weepy like a little bitch with a skinned knee.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I haven't discounted that. I expressed doubt that there was no other difference, but you clarified that. How does that somehow work against the hypothesis that there are biological reasons behind this? Never mind the cultural reasons.
Well, given that we've had this same debate several times now, and each time you insist that there is no difference in earnings or wage, that it is only due to the choices that women make... and then I present the exact same studies that you then ignore... and then you go on to have the exact same argument with the exact same reasons at some later point in time... it sure seems like you're ignoring them.

What biological reasons are there for an exactly identical resume being considered less competent or being offered a lower starting salary when the only difference is gender?
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Old 15th March 2017, 12:21 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's not entirely true, though, is it? If we expect women to be emotional, then it's more likely to be seen as normal and for them to avoid negative consequences for displaying emotion.
If we also simultaneously associate leadership ability with being unemotional and making hard decisions, where does that leave women?

If they act in a way that is viewed as normal, then they aren't displaying leadership skills. If they act in a way that displays leadership skills, then they aren't acting in a way that is viewed as normal.
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Old 15th March 2017, 12:22 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Er, a) By whom? b) What is 'it'? c) No.
If that is not what you were intending to say, can you please rephrase?
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Old 15th March 2017, 12:23 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Oh those poor black people! They're the victims of poverty! Think of the poor black peole. Oh, what's that you say? White people are often victims of poverty too? Why, that's irrelevant in this context when the context is how social biases and conventions contribute to a disparate and persistent poverty rate among black americans.
Ok at this point you're not interested in actually discussing the issue, just finding ways to mirror arguments mindlessly.

Quote:
1) Don't call me sister. We are not familiar enough for you to engage in any sort of diminutive pet-names.
For pete's sake, lighten up. I was just being playful.

Quote:
2) People have also been noting for thousands of years how much better men are at math and science and hard work and making decisions and being smart.
Well I'm sure they'll change their minds when you produce a female Chess grand master (hypothetical argument).

Quote:
Has it occurred to you that women emote differently because women are expected to show their emotion more openly?
Yes, because you keep making that claim I have no choice to have it occur to me.

However you're yet to support that claim.

Quote:
Well, given that we've had this same debate several times now, and each time you insist that there is no difference in earnings or wage, that it is only due to the choices that women make...
And that is what we call a lie. I have done NONE of those things, and it's getting tiresome, you assigning opinions to other people that they do not hold.
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Old 15th March 2017, 12:25 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
If we also simultaneously associate leadership ability with being unemotional and making hard decisions, where does that leave women?

If they act in a way that is viewed as normal, then they aren't displaying leadership skills. If they act in a way that displays leadership skills, then they aren't acting in a way that is viewed as normal.
And? It still means they'd display the behaviour expected for that job. It doesn't seem to me like you know what you're trying to argue.
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Old 15th March 2017, 12:50 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
If that is not what you were intending to say, can you please rephrase?
I'm not sure which bit is unclear, but essentially men not only assign less negative value to assault on their person, they are less likely to discuss it or complain about it. Personally I have not reported or complained about anything that's happened to me (in relation to this discussion) because none of it bothers me. That doesn't translate to your assessment of 'since it doesn't affect you it's just not a big deal' as I'm not passing judgement on anybody, merely making a personal testament.
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Old 15th March 2017, 02:00 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
For pete's sake, lighten up. I was just being playful.
Fair point. I can sometimes be a little too serious... but I also really don't care for pet names except from my mommy and my spouse.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes, because you keep making that claim I have no choice to have it occur to me.

However you're yet to support that claim.
I don't think you've yet supported the claim that it's the other way round either though.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post

And that is what we call a lie. I have done NONE of those things, and it's getting tiresome, you assigning opinions to other people that they do not hold.
Now hold on a minute! WTH?

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Wage disparity? Not that myth again! The disparity is one of earnings, not wage.
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Men work 14% more hours a week, and women tend to skip promotions to, surprise, spend more time at home with the children. Those and a few other choices explain the vast majority of the 23% discrepancy. The rest might be discrimination, or might be some other factor we don't know about. (ETA : And that's not even getting into different career choices.)
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, A'isha. I'm saying that it's an EARNINGS GAP, not a wage gap, AND that it's mainly CAUSED by choices that differ between the sexes.
What do you think your argument boils down to, if not what I framed it as?

You've repeatedly quibbled about wage vs. earnings, and then hand-waved away the vast majority of the earnings difference as being the result of the choices that women make. You repeatedly avoid discussion of any possible causes other than the choices that women make. You even support your view that it's almost all because of choices with a naturalistic fallacy!

If you think you're making a different argument, I urge you to take a moment and clearly state that argument at this point, so we can stop bickering about the things you say and focus on the things you mean to say instead
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