ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Education
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 19th March 2017, 11:05 AM   #161
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,452
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Really? The post you reference is as follows:

(Your bolding)

So 20-50 million slaves who are NOT slaves. How does that work?

You even go to great lengths to explain just how people who are not enslaved legally are not actually slaves.

So please go ahead and explain how your first comment can be true in light of all your others.
Rubbish.

Ah, good. Progress.
Quote:
As for the 'material' you're requesting, I assume you're referring to my first post and subsequent replies in this thread. What else do you want?
Once again. I want links to the specific statements you refer to here.
I was then informed that the only historic slaves were African slaves in the US, and the rest was 'not history'
In what posts, by number please, were you so informed? Because I agree with you that these statements you object to are false. What posts are they from?

Last edited by Craig B; 19th March 2017 at 11:07 AM.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 12:20 PM   #162
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,668
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I am interested that you seem to put workhouses on a par with the holocaust. In England from Tudor times (say 1600) parishes had an absolute responsibility to support women and children and men unable to work. The only people who could not go 'on the parish' were able bodied men. Those able to work were given work with the potential to earn money. Children had access to education and medical care.

Now I do not pretend that abuses did not happen we are all aware of the abuses throughout the twentieth century at children's homes and homes for 'fallen women'. But look at your own country's current response to the poor and those unable to work and think that England for four hundred years has said these people cannot starve to death, the children will be educated and get access to medical care (for what that was worth in the seventeenth century).
Okay, so workhouses weren't the best comparable. How about the British impressment of sailors during the 1800s? It's certainly not hard to compare that to slavery.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 01:15 PM   #163
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,452
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Okay, so workhouses weren't the best comparable. How about the British impressment of sailors during the 1800s? It's certainly not hard to compare that to slavery.
Just about every country has imposed conscription in the period since c 1800. It has been regarded as service to the nation, not to an individual master, and therefore not degrading. Personally I'm opposed to it except in acute emergency.

In slave owning countries, slaves were often exempt, because they were forbidden to bear arms. The Confederacy didn't conscript slaves, for example.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 01:20 PM   #164
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Rubbish.
Is that the best you can do? I show where you have categorically contradicted yourself about the core topic and all you can respond is, "Rubbish"?

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Ah, good. Progress. Once again. I want links to the specific statements you refer to here.
I was then informed that the only historic slaves were African slaves in the US, and the rest was 'not history'
In what posts, by number please, were you so informed? Because I agree with you that these statements you object to are false. What posts are they from?
Rubbish.

How's that?
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 01:29 PM   #165
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,452
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Is that the best you can do? I show where you have categorically contradicted yourself about the core topic and all you can respond is, "Rubbish"?



Rubbish.

How's that?
It's proof that your earlier posts were baloney. That's how it is. You won't answer because you can't. Nobody ever said to you that slavery was practiced only in the USA, or that its occurrence elsewhere wasn't history.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 01:39 PM   #166
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It's proof that your earlier posts were baloney. That's how it is. You won't answer because you can't. Nobody ever said to you that slavery was practiced only in the USA, or that its occurrence elsewhere wasn't history.
Nobody needs you to prove anything. The posts are there, on page 1. My first post and the reply to it. Anybody can read them.

So let me just recap, in your own words.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I have already stated that I believe there are more than 20-50 millions of slaves in the world.
That's great. You agree with me. I knew you'd get there in the end.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 03:19 PM   #167
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,452
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Nobody needs you to prove anything. The posts are there, on page 1. My first post and the reply to it. Anybody can read them.

So let me just recap, in your own words.



That's great. You agree with me. I knew you'd get there in the end.
That's right, only I stated that long ago, not in the "end". And it's further proof that nobody ever said to you that
slavery was practiced only in the USA, or that its occurrence elsewhere wasn't history.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 03:45 PM   #168
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's right, only I stated that long ago, not in the "end".
Then you stated the opposite, hence my confusion, as I said.

But forget that, I'm glad we've cleared up the issue and established that slavery does not have to mean chattel slavery and that there are between 20 and 50 million slaves in the world. You had a few bumps in your argument along the way but the upshot is you agree with what I've been saying all along. Great!
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 04:10 PM   #169
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,452
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Then you stated the opposite, hence my confusion, as I said.

But forget that, I'm glad we've cleared up the issue and established that slavery does not have to mean chattel slavery and that there are between 20 and 50 million slaves in the world. You had a few bumps in your argument along the way but the upshot is you agree with what I've been saying all along. Great!
Is that the best you can do? Worse, is that the best you want to do? Dear me.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 04:18 PM   #170
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,666
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Is that the best you can do? Worse, is that the best you want to do? Dear me.

Odd, don't you think, that he is unwilling (or unable) to provide the post numbers to those posts he says support the claim he made?

Prevarication, mebbe?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 05:34 PM   #171
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Is that the best you can do? Worse, is that the best you want to do? Dear me.
Beg your pardon, have I got it wrong? Best to clarify, then:

Do you or do you not believe there are 20 - 50 million slaves in the world today?

It's a very simple question requiring a straight, one-word answer, yet something tells me that I'm not going to get that from you.

EDIT: Obviously the answer would be slightly longer than one word, but you get the idea.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.

Last edited by baron; 19th March 2017 at 05:36 PM.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 06:01 PM   #172
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 10,003
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Nobody needs you to prove anything. The posts are there, on page 1. My first post and the reply to it. Anybody can read them.
First, no one has said that slavery was practiced only in the USA, only that it's historical practice in the USA was related to the topic of this thread and is a meaningful subject for a grade school history course.

Second, "that its occurrence elsewhere wasn't history" again isn't a claim anyone has made, rather they suggested that it's occurrence elsewhere today isn't history. You countered by suggesting that if it is happening elsewhere today in order to understand that occurrence we need to look at the history of slavery as it is still extent, which is true, but it is certainly also true that the history of something that exists is different from the thing that exists.

We all, I'm quite confident, understand that slavery has a long, broad, and disgusting history throughout the world, and that part of that history that happened in the united states prior to the emancipation is only a very small part of that whole.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 07:17 PM   #173
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,668
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Just about every country has imposed conscription in the period since c 1800. It has been regarded as service to the nation, not to an individual master, and therefore not degrading. Personally I'm opposed to it except in acute emergency.
The British conscripted thousands of people who weren't even British citizens (e.g., they were American sailors found aboard the high seas). It was one of the major causes of the War of 1812. The novel Billy Budd (by Hawthorne) has the impressment of young American Budd as its pivotal moment.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 09:52 PM   #174
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 21,830
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The British conscripted thousands of people who weren't even British citizens (e.g., they were American sailors found aboard the high seas). It was one of the major causes of the War of 1812. The novel Billy Budd (by Hawthorne) has the impressment of young American Budd as its pivotal moment.
Billy Budd is by Melville.

Not that it matters that much, as Melville and Hawthorne were friends, but...

Indeed, the impressment of American sailors was a bad thing, though even in this case, as I recall, it was only to those who were deemed to have been under British jurisdiction at the time of the revolution, as Great Britain did not recognize American naturalization. Wrong as it was, it was not a piratical free-for-all.
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 11:27 PM   #175
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,666
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Billy Budd is by Melville.

Not that it matters that much, as Melville and Hawthorne were friends, but...

Indeed, the impressment of American sailors was a bad thing, though even in this case, as I recall, it was only to those who were deemed to have been under British jurisdiction at the time of the revolution, as Great Britain did not recognize American naturalization. Wrong as it was, it was not a piratical free-for-all.

It wasn't particularly unusual for British sailors who had signed on for a voyage on a merchant ship to jump ship if they had a chance when in the colonies, and that includes the U.S. as an ex-colony. Not all of those knew they had signed on until after the tide was out and they woke up at sea.

As well, the British Navy was legally impressing sailors in their own country and the colonies they had left at a substantial rate.

More than a few of those impressed and kidnapped sailors jumped ship when they could and headed to the new U.S., where they unsurprisingly found employment as sailors on American vessels.

The impressment of American citizens was played up mightily by the American press and pols, but most of the sailors actually removed from American vessels probably really were British citizens. If a British Navy ship found them on an American vessel (and they were looking) they had as much legal right (in their eyes) to draft them for duty as they would have had in a port in Great Britain.

And at that time they were always on the lookout for more warm bodies to put to work on their ships.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 01:27 AM   #176
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,452
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The British conscripted thousands of people who weren't even British citizens (e.g., they were American sailors found aboard the high seas). It was one of the major causes of the War of 1812. The novel Billy Budd (by Hawthorne) has the impressment of young American Budd as its pivotal moment.
You wrote
Okay, so workhouses weren't the best comparable. How about the British impressment of sailors during the 1800s? It's certainly not hard to compare that to slavery.
Impressment in principle affected sailors who were, or were claimed to be, British. If you meant that unlawful British impressment of US sailors resembled slavery, then it would have been better to say so. Conscription in itself has been commonplace, and is not really to be compared with slave raiding.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:02 AM   #177
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
First, no one has said that slavery was practiced only in the USA, only that it's historical practice in the USA was related to the topic of this thread and is a meaningful subject for a grade school history course.

Second, "that its occurrence elsewhere wasn't history" again isn't a claim anyone has made, rather they suggested that it's occurrence elsewhere today isn't history.
Which is - and I believe I pointed this out - absurd, because to make that distinction you would need to believe that 20 - 50 million slaves appeared overnight. The truth, clearly, is that slavery has been ongoing for thousands of years. Hence: History.

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You countered by suggesting that if it is happening elsewhere today in order to understand that occurrence we need to look at the history of slavery as it is still extent, which is true, but it is certainly also true that the history of something that exists is different from the thing that exists.
So where do you draw the line? Unless you draw an arbitrary line at the year 1850 then you must concede that the slavery I talked of in my first posts is history.

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
We all, I'm quite confident, understand that slavery has a long, broad, and disgusting history throughout the world, and that part of that history that happened in the united states prior to the emancipation is only a very small part of that whole.
You may be and I certainly am, but others in this thread seem very confused on the issue.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:23 AM   #178
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,452
Originally Posted by baron View Post
You may be and I certainly am, but others in this thread seem very confused on the issue.
Refs please. Please also give # numbers of posts. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:37 AM   #179
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Refs please. Please also give # numbers of posts. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
Why have you not read this short thread? I told you which posts: my first post and its reply. Roboramma had no problem in identifying these two posts and discussing them without being spoonfed the post numbers. What problems are you encountering doing the same?

And for the sixth time:

Do you or do you not believe there are 20 - 50 million slaves in the world today?

Why do you refuse to answer this question?
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 08:22 AM   #180
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,315
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Which is - and I believe I pointed this out - absurd, because to make that distinction you would need to believe that 20 - 50 million slaves appeared overnight. The truth, clearly, is that slavery has been ongoing for thousands of years. Hence: History.
The African slave trade in America was one of the primary political and cultural events of its era. It changed agriculture, it changed demographics, it fractured our country and we fought a war over it. It is not just about the suffering of those who were subject to it or the gains of those who benefitted from it, it fundamentally shaped our country and has had a ripple effect to the present day.

In that regard it is a bit separate and apart from the ongoing issue of forced labor. Not because the people involved current forced labor are any better treated or less important, but because the impact on society is diminished by the underground nature.

American children probably need to understand both, but I don't see why both need to be taught at the same time. The African slave trade needs to be understood to have even a rudimentary understanding of the history of our country. It is as important to our history as the Pilgrims. You literally can not understand our history without knowing what happened.

The issue of underground forced labor is important to an understanding of civil rights and workers rights. It is also important in our history, but not an essential prerequisite to understanding our history. Most American kids will read The Jungle prior to graduation. In my experience that is when good teachers will point to the labels on their students clothing and ask who they think made their t-shirt in China so that they could buy it for $8 at Walmart. It is a valuable discussion and I remember having it. I more acutely remember my kids having it over the last few years. In high school.

Not everything needs to be covered in fifth grade. IT is more about laying the basic framework, the essential prerequisites to understanding later discussions. We don't expect fifth graders to understand algebra, but they do need to understand basic arithmetic so that one day they can move on to algebra. Why should history be any different?
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 09:18 AM   #181
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,452
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why have you not read this short thread? I told you which posts: my first post and its reply. Roboramma had no problem in identifying these two posts and discussing them without being spoonfed the post numbers. What problems are you encountering doing the same?

And for the sixth time:

Do you or do you not believe there are 20 - 50 million slaves in the world today?

Why do you refuse to answer this question?
I see the problem. You don't understand what I'm saying. You asked
So do you believe all the studies that state there are between 20 and 50 million slaves in the world are wrong? That there are actually none?
and I responded.
There may well be more
That means, I agree that slavery exists; and there may well not simply be twenty million slaves but even more than 20 million slaves.

But then I did something very silly. I asked you to think about something connected with that. I said
but it's senseless to define a slave as a poorly paid person who works in dangerous conditions.
In other words, the twenty million are not merely poorly paid labourers - they are forced or constrained labourers. I then said
There are more than 20-50 millions of them, by the way.
do you know what that means? It means that in addition to the slaves, who may number more than twenty million, there are very many more than 20 million people who are merely poorly paid. In fact, I would imagine there are hundreds of millions of them! But are they slaves? Not unless they are subjected to constraint. If they are free to leave their employment, they are not slaves, however exploited they may be in other ways. Do you understand that? I think you do, because I don't think you are a total dope.

What I think is that you are acting as an apologist for Dixie and for this purpose you are wilfully confusing the issue by saying, slavery and low pay are exactly the same thing, so what's all the fuss about Fort Sumter and all that? Should have let them get on with it. No big deal.

But I may be doing you a disservice, and you really didn't understand my post. However, I bet most other readers understood it, so I'm glad I wrote it.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 10:07 AM   #182
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The African slave trade in America was one of the primary political and cultural events of its era. It changed agriculture, it changed demographics, it fractured our country and we fought a war over it. It is not just about the suffering of those who were subject to it or the gains of those who benefitted from it, it fundamentally shaped our country and has had a ripple effect to the present day.

In that regard it is a bit separate and apart from the ongoing issue of forced labor. Not because the people involved current forced labor are any better treated or less important, but because the impact on society is diminished by the underground nature.

American children probably need to understand both, but I don't see why both need to be taught at the same time. The African slave trade needs to be understood to have even a rudimentary understanding of the history of our country. It is as important to our history as the Pilgrims. You literally can not understand our history without knowing what happened.

The issue of underground forced labor is important to an understanding of civil rights and workers rights. It is also important in our history, but not an essential prerequisite to understanding our history. Most American kids will read The Jungle prior to graduation. In my experience that is when good teachers will point to the labels on their students clothing and ask who they think made their t-shirt in China so that they could buy it for $8 at Walmart. It is a valuable discussion and I remember having it. I more acutely remember my kids having it over the last few years. In high school.

Not everything needs to be covered in fifth grade. IT is more about laying the basic framework, the essential prerequisites to understanding later discussions. We don't expect fifth graders to understand algebra, but they do need to understand basic arithmetic so that one day they can move on to algebra. Why should history be any different?
And this last part is exactly what I'm saying. In the same way you wouldn't try to teach a kid algebra before you teach them basic arithmetic, you shouldn't jump right into a specific geographical instance of slavery before they understand the wider framework. That is my only point, I don't even disagree with you on the rest.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 10:15 AM   #183
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I see the problem. You don't understand what I'm saying. You asked
So do you believe all the studies that state there are between 20 and 50 million slaves in the world are wrong? That there are actually none?
and I responded.
There may well be more
That means, I agree that slavery exists; and there may well not simply be twenty million slaves but even more than 20 million slaves.

But then I did something very silly. I asked you to think about something connected with that. I said
but it's senseless to define a slave as a poorly paid person who works in dangerous conditions.
In other words, the twenty million are not merely poorly paid labourers - they are forced or constrained labourers. I then said
There are more than 20-50 millions of them, by the way.
do you know what that means? It means that in addition to the slaves, who may number more than twenty million, there are very many more than 20 million people who are merely poorly paid. In fact, I would imagine there are hundreds of millions of them! But are they slaves? Not unless they are subjected to constraint. If they are free to leave their employment, they are not slaves, however exploited they may be in other ways. Do you understand that? I think you do, because I don't think you are a total dope.

What I think is that you are acting as an apologist for Dixie and for this purpose you are wilfully confusing the issue by saying, slavery and low pay are exactly the same thing, so what's all the fuss about Fort Sumter and all that? Should have let them get on with it. No big deal.

But I may be doing you a disservice, and you really didn't understand my post. However, I bet most other readers understood it, so I'm glad I wrote it.
No, I didn't understand your post. I didn't understand this post, your previous posts or indeed any of your posts in this thread. You redefine words and contradict yourself with every paragraph, it's impossible to make head nor tail of it.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 10:27 AM   #184
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,315
Originally Posted by baron View Post
And this last part is exactly what I'm saying. In the same way you wouldn't try to teach a kid algebra before you teach them basic arithmetic, you shouldn't jump right into a specific geographical instance of slavery before they understand the wider framework. That is my only point, I don't even disagree with you on the rest.
I suppose. I'm just not sure that it is a necessary prerequisite to understanding the impact of the historical event on US history.

I can understand the impact of Columbus on US history with a cursory understanding of the history of seafaring and European politics that lead up to Columbus. But a better understanding of Columbus really does require that background. So, if the goal of the class is to understand Columbus then the background is deeply important, but if the goal is to understand US History, then a deep dive into pre-Columbian European History may be better left for later courses.

So, a course on slavery, I would think that the African slave trade would be introductory material, leading to the broader problem of forced labor as it has existed over time and still exists today. But for a course on Us history I would think underground forced labor is less important than the African slave trade, beyond explaining what slavery is and how it can be public or underground.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 10:33 AM   #185
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I suppose. I'm just not sure that it is a necessary prerequisite to understanding the impact of the historical event on US history.

I can understand the impact of Columbus on US history with a cursory understanding of the history of seafaring and European politics that lead up to Columbus. But a better understanding of Columbus really does require that background. So, if the goal of the class is to understand Columbus then the background is deeply important, but if the goal is to understand US History, then a deep dive into pre-Columbian European History may be better left for later courses.

So, a course on slavery, I would think that the African slave trade would be introductory material, leading to the broader problem of forced labor as it has existed over time and still exists today. But for a course on Us history I would think underground forced labor is less important than the African slave trade, beyond explaining what slavery is and how it can be public or underground.
Well, I'm not a teacher (although the rest of my family were) but I'm a great believer in setting the scene before looking at the detail. This may be simply an awareness of the broader picture, it doesn't need to be a three week course, but I maintain it should be done.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 03:24 PM   #186
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,666
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You wrote
Okay, so workhouses weren't the best comparable. How about the British impressment of sailors during the 1800s? It's certainly not hard to compare that to slavery.
Impressment in principle affected sailors who were, or were claimed to be, British. If you meant that unlawful British impressment of US sailors resembled slavery, then it would have been better to say so. Conscription in itself has been commonplace, and is not really to be compared with slave raiding.

It ought to be noted that "impressment" is a term which specifically applies to the Royal Navy conscripting British citizens for military service on their warships.

Incidents of Americans being conscripted were invariably based on the assertion by the British officers doing it that those individuals were British subjects and not really American citizens. Sometimes they were. Sometimes they weren't. Mostly they probably were British subjects.

Impressment was a form of military draft. It wasn't unusual then, and it isn't unusual now. Whether or not it constitutes chattel slavery is probably a topic suited for a different thread.

OTOH, the outright kidnapping of people to forced servitude on non-military merchant ships (AKA "shanghaiing" was also a problem. One which was widespread enough in the U.S. by vessels under U.S. flags (well into the beginning of the 20th Century) that Congress was forced to take actions specifically to combat the practice.

Lacking the legal sanction of military conscription I can't think of any way to describe that except as slavery.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 03:37 PM   #187
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,235
Originally Posted by baron View Post
These modern-day slaves / non-slaves / corporate trainees are not simply enslaved by their masters, they are enslaved by consumers all over the Western world. I wonder how many of the teachers and kids and their families know, or care, that the products they buy actually fund slavery in other countries? What irony that kids are likely sitting there wearing clothes produced by slaves whilst learning that the only slavery worthy of the name ended 200 years ago.

This, of course, is only one small portion of the gamut of modern day slavery. Your comparison of atrocities visited on slaves today as opposed to African slaves 200 - 400 years ago in the US seems to rest on their legality, which is a moot point for those involved. Even in the UK thousands of slaves are abused, beat, raped and even murdered every year, and the figures for the US are as you'd expect much greater. Then, when you consider the rest of the world you see that the US African slavery of 1600 - 1800 was nothing in comparison to what's going on this very day. Yes, the idea it was legal is shocking, but that's little more than a technicality when you realise that slavery is as good as legal for many millions across the world.
Please provide some support for this claim.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 03:38 PM   #188
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,452
Originally Posted by baron View Post
No, I didn't understand your post. I didn't understand this post, your previous posts or indeed any of your posts in this thread. You redefine words and contradict yourself with every paragraph, it's impossible to make head nor tail of it.
You didn't have a response to my criticism, is what you mean.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 03:45 PM   #189
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,235
Originally Posted by baron View Post
So I go back to my original question, rephrased. Are you asserting that because a person can physically leave their employment they are not a slave, even if leaving would result in them starving to death?
Correct. They are not slaves.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 03:50 PM   #190
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,235
"Wage Slavery" isn't a thing.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 05:15 PM   #191
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Please provide some support for this claim.
Surely a search for 'modern day slavery in UK' and 'modern day slavery in US' would answer your question and bring you links like this

https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/slavery-uk/

and this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_..._United_States

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Correct. They are not slaves.
The discussion has moved on a little and, in many ways, concluded in this respect.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:01 PM   #192
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 10,003
Originally Posted by baron View Post
No, I didn't understand your post. I didn't understand this post, your previous posts or indeed any of your posts in this thread. You redefine words and contradict yourself with every paragraph, it's impossible to make head nor tail of it.
Personally I think he's been very clear and consistent: slavery exists today, many millions of people are slaves by any meaningful definition of the word. There are also more millions of people who are not slaves but who are exploited in other ways, and it behooves us to be aware of the distinction between them.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:12 PM   #193
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 10,003
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Which is - and I believe I pointed this out - absurd, because to make that distinction you would need to believe that 20 - 50 million slaves appeared overnight. The truth, clearly, is that slavery has been ongoing for thousands of years. Hence: History.
Any discussion of current events will be discussing things that have a history. If we want to talk about coal mining or agriculture, if we want to discuss modern rap music or salsa dancing, mixed martial arts or gymnastics, all will have a history that led up to the development of their present forms. But that doesn't mean that in talking about last week's fight between Tyron Woodly and Steven Thompson I am discussing history. Yes, to truly understand that fight and how it played out we have to go back and look t the development of brazilian jiu jitsu in the early 20th century, or perhaps further back to the it's roots in Japanese Jiu Jitsu, the early days of Vale Tudo fighting in Brazil, the catch wrestling movement in the united states, the history of boxing and kick boxing, the history of karate and how it came to america, the initial rise of the UFC in the early 90s and the subsequent evolution of the sport, all of which led to that (rather mediocre) fight last week.

But I don't think that I would call that fight "history". It's a very current event and like anything to understand it, yes, we need to understand it's history, the fight itself isn't history now.

Nothing "just appeared overnight", but that doesn't mean that everything is history. Modern slavery is modern slavery. It has a history, but that doesn't make it history.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2017, 03:40 AM   #194
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Personally I think he's been very clear and consistent: slavery exists today,
He started off stating that slavery does not exist today, because chattel slavery is the only definition of slavery possible. How could you have missed it?

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I said nothing of chattel slavery, I said slavery.
Then you said nothing.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Originally Posted by baron View Post
So I'll ask the question again (it has not been answered as yet). Do you or do you not believe that there are zero slaves in the world?
I have already answered that. Slavery has been common. Many countries other than the USA have practised it too.
If you think that's 'very clear and consistent' I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
many millions of people are slaves by any meaningful definition of the word. There are also more millions of people who are not slaves but who are exploited in other ways, and it behooves us to be aware of the distinction between them.
Yes, that's what I've been saying all along. However, when people try to argue against a point just for the sake of arguing, things become confused.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2017, 03:45 AM   #195
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Any discussion of current events will be discussing things that have a history. If we want to talk about coal mining or agriculture, if we want to discuss modern rap music or salsa dancing, mixed martial arts or gymnastics, all will have a history that led up to the development of their present forms. But that doesn't mean that in talking about last week's fight between Tyron Woodly and Steven Thompson I am discussing history. Yes, to truly understand that fight and how it played out we have to go back and look t the development of brazilian jiu jitsu in the early 20th century, or perhaps further back to the it's roots in Japanese Jiu Jitsu, the early days of Vale Tudo fighting in Brazil, the catch wrestling movement in the united states, the history of boxing and kick boxing, the history of karate and how it came to america, the initial rise of the UFC in the early 90s and the subsequent evolution of the sport, all of which led to that (rather mediocre) fight last week.

But I don't think that I would call that fight "history". It's a very current event and like anything to understand it, yes, we need to understand it's history, the fight itself isn't history now.

Nothing "just appeared overnight", but that doesn't mean that everything is history. Modern slavery is modern slavery. It has a history, but that doesn't make it history.
Of course it's history. To take your analogy, to teach the history of boxing you would not concentrate solely on the prize fights of 1810 - 1840. You would take the history of boxing from its origin to this very day and, if necessary, then focus on specific events and time periods. That's what history is. History is not inventing some arbitrary date and stating that no history has happened since that point, it makes no sense. Slavery has been in the world constantly since the beginning of human civilisation. To say that the past 150 years should not be studied because it's not history is bizarre.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2017, 08:23 AM   #196
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 10,003
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Of course it's history. To take your analogy, to teach the history of boxing you would not concentrate solely on the prize fights of 1810 - 1840. You would take the history of boxing from its origin to this very day and, if necessary, then focus on specific events and time periods. That's what history is. History is not inventing some arbitrary date and stating that no history has happened since that point, it makes no sense. Slavery has been in the world constantly since the beginning of human civilisation. To say that the past 150 years should not be studied because it's not history is bizarre.
No one is saying that the past 150 years of history should not be studied, nor that it's not history. Someone has said that the present is not history, and I agree that the present is current events, though a history of slavery that concludes with the modern day would certainly be a reasonable way of teaching that, saying that the modern state of affairs is not history seems to me to also be very reasonable, just like saying that a fight that happened last week isn't history.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2017, 08:24 AM   #197
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 10,003
Originally Posted by baron View Post
He started off stating that slavery does not exist today, because chattel slavery is the only definition of slavery possible. How could you have missed it?
Okay, I think that's the point of disagreement: my reading is that chattel slavery still exists.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2017, 09:11 AM   #198
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,315
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Well, I'm not a teacher (although the rest of my family were) but I'm a great believer in setting the scene before looking at the detail. This may be simply an awareness of the broader picture, it doesn't need to be a three week course, but I maintain it should be done.
I agree with you generally.

But, I think the discussion in this thread about what is slavery shows that the topic is more complex than is needed to understand the very blatant chattel slavery of the African slave trade as a part of America's History.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2017, 09:18 AM   #199
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,452
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Okay, I think that's the point of disagreement: my reading is that chattel slavery still exists.
I simply did not write what baron attributes to me. He may be referring to #131. Go and read it yourself.

The kind of slavery referred to in the OP is chattel slavery, with advertised public sales of slaves. That is the context of the discussion that launched this thread. But I have repeatedly stated that if people are not permitted, either by the use of force or through other constraint, to change their employment, they are slaves. If however, they are merely underpaid and working in dangerous conditions they are not, on that account alone, slaves.

In this context I referred specifically to pre-1861 Russian peasants and pre-1799 Scottish coal miners, whose status as chattels is doubtful, but who were certainly under legal and other constraint in the matter of leaving their employment. They were slaves.

They were legally emancipated at the dates I cited; and the fact of their emancipation was rightly seen as important, even though they continued to be under-rewarded, and to work in uncomfortable and dangerous conditions.

Last edited by Craig B; 21st March 2017 at 09:21 AM.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2017, 09:21 AM   #200
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 10,003
Craig you are right and my last post was actually simply my misunderstanding of the term "chattel slavery".

Aside from this mistake on my part, I think you've been very clear throughout the thread, and your last post remains so.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Education

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:50 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.