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Old 20th March 2017, 01:04 PM   #41
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Adding more from what I wrote on the previous page.

The contribution of traditional Chinese medicine to sustainable development: Keynote address at the International Conference on the Modernization of Traditional Chinese Medicine

Dr Margaret Chan
Director-General of the World Health Organization
Singapore
23 October 2016

[. . .]
The World Health Organization welcomes this landmark conference on the modernization of traditional Chinese medicine. You seek, in particular, to give traditional medicine an evidence-based place within a health care system where mainstream modern medicine dominates.

Your agenda says many things. You are looking at China’s experiences in clinics and hospitals where traditional and modern medicine offer integrated services, at the role of health services and policy research, and the use of biomedical knowledge to modernize traditional Chinese medicine.

You are considering how more rigorous testing can meet the scientific standards needed for international recognition and acceptance. You are looking at the absolutely critical issue of safety, as demonstrated in well-designed clinical trials.

You are also looking at the performance of traditional Chinese medicine for specific indications, including digestive disorders, and giving attention to the two forms of traditional medicine most often used in modern health systems, namely acupuncture and herbal remedies.

All of these approaches can contribute to the modernization of traditional Chinese medicine.

I am Chinese, and I have used traditional Chinese medicine throughout my lifetime. I have no doubt that these preparations soothe, treat many common ailments, and relieve pain.

But if I have a bad toothache, I go to the dentist.

[. . .]
http://www.who.int/dg/speeches/2016/...ustainable/en/

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Old 20th March 2017, 01:32 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ViewsofMars View Post
None of the U.S. institutions that I have presented are promoting pseudoscience.
At least one of the U.S. institutions that you have presented has a list including the pseudoscience of acupuncture. Promoting is a bit strong, but not including that acupuncture is pseudoscience gets close to promoting it.
The NCI has a Complementary and Alternative Medicine for Patients list. The list includes antineoplastons as a CAM which are currently only used by the quack Dr. S. R. Burzynski. There is not even a hint that this is basically a 40 year long scam by a single doctor.

Cherry picking positive studies is not good. It is analysis of all studies whether positive or negative that gives an honest assessment. Acupuncture
Quote:
Acupuncture[note 1] is a form of alternative medicine[2] in which thin needles are inserted into the body.[3] It is a key component of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM). TCM theory and practice are not based upon scientific knowledge,[4] and acupuncture is a pseudoscience.[5][6] There are a diverse range of acupuncture theories based on different philosophies,[7] and techniques vary depending on the country.[8] The method used in TCM is likely the most widespread in the US.[2] It is most often used for pain relief,[9][10] though it is also used for a wide range of other conditions. Acupuncture is generally used only in combination with other forms of treatment.[11]

The conclusions of many trials and numerous systematic reviews of acupuncture are largely inconsistent.[9][12] An overview of Cochrane reviews found that acupuncture is not effective for a wide range of conditions, and it suggests acupuncture may be effective only for chemotherapy-induced nausea/vomiting, postoperative nausea/vomiting, and idiopathic headache.[12] A systematic review of systematic reviews found little evidence of acupuncture's effectiveness in treating pain.[9] The evidence suggests that short-term treatment with acupuncture does not produce long-term benefits.[13] Some research results suggest acupuncture can alleviate pain, though the majority of research suggests that acupuncture's effects are mainly due to placebo.[8] A systematic review concluded that the analgesic effect of acupuncture seemed to lack clinical relevance and could not be clearly distinguished from bias.[14] A meta-analysis found that acupuncture for chronic low back pain was cost-effective as an adjunct to standard care,[15] while a systematic review found insufficient evidence for the cost-effectiveness of acupuncture in the treatment of chronic low back pain.[16]

A keynote speech with a personal anecdote is not science !

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Old 20th March 2017, 02:08 PM   #43
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I have said before that I don't use wikipedia. Obviously you don't like the World Health Organization. the U.S. National Library of Medicine from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and National Institutes of Health:
NIH: National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health. You don't agree with any of them nor do you agree with the American Cancer Society:

Common techniques used for cancer pain

Acupuncture

In acupuncture, very thin needles are put into the body at certain points and at various depths and angles. Each point is thought to control the feeling of pain in a different part of the body. When the needle is put in, some people feel a slight ache, dull pain, tingling, or electrical sensation for a few seconds. Once the needles are in place, they shouldn’t hurt. The needles are usually left in for 15 to 30 minutes. It doesn’t hurt when the needles are removed. Acupuncture is widely available, but it should only be done by a licensed, certified acupuncturist. Ask your cancer care team where to get acupuncture.

Precaution: If you are getting chemotherapy, talk to your doctor before starting acupuncture.

https://www.cancer.org/treatment/tre...ncer-pain.html

I'm done with this topic.

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Old 20th March 2017, 02:33 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ViewsofMars View Post
I have said before that I don't use wikipedia.
I do use Wikipedia as a source of scientific references - live with it! Lots of irrelevant fantasies again and no science from you.

What you ignored:
  1. The NCI has a Complementary and Alternative Medicine for Patients list.
    The list includes antineoplastons as a CAM which are currently only used by the quack Dr. S. R. Burzynski. There is not even a hint that this is basically a 40 year long scam by a single doctor.
  2. A keynote speech with a personal anecdote is not science !
A WHO conference where a keynote speaker states their personal opinion about acupuncture is not a scientific study of acupuncture.

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Old 20th March 2017, 02:54 PM   #45
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Lots of stuff to read on NICE's website: https://www.evidence.nhs.uk/Search?q...on+acupuncture
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Old 21st March 2017, 03:59 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Lots of stuff to read on NICE's website: https://www.evidence.nhs.uk/Search?q...on+acupuncture
A lot of these studies are positive towards acupuncture. Maybe there is something in it after all?
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Old 21st March 2017, 06:38 AM   #47
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Allow me to give an anecdote that I don't understand and can't explain.

My Chinese grandmother-in-law once underwent stomach surgery with no anesthetic aside from acupuncture, because anesthetic was dangerous given her health. I know nothing about this aside from my wife's testimony and it certainly is hard to accept given my skepticism of the practice based on scientific studies. Nonetheless, I regard this testimony as very likely to be accurate.

Given that, I am conflicted about the efficacy of acupuncture. Is it possible that it was purely a placebo effect that allowed her to withstand surgery without pain? I've no idea.

As with all anecdotes, I expect others to take this account with a large grain of salt, but there it is.
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Old 21st March 2017, 07:15 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, you were right the first time. My children can attest to the pain-relieving efficacy of that treatment.
Ha! Very true.
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Old 21st March 2017, 07:26 AM   #49
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As far as I know, sans expertise, acupuncture is identical to homeopathy in every sense: there's no rational basis for it, there's no evidence that rises above noise, and there's a lot of money being made flogging and apologizing for it.

The fact that a physical needle pricks physical skin means nothing at all. I'm too lazy now to look it up, but there's a study where the needles were not pushed into the skin at all (sham acupuncture) and the placebo feelies still kicked-in.

Bottom line, as far as I care, acupuncture is a pointless needle point.
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Old 21st March 2017, 08:09 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
As far as I know, sans expertise, acupuncture is identical to homeopathy in every sense: there's no rational basis for it, there's no evidence that rises above noise, and there's a lot of money being made flogging and apologizing for it.

The fact that a physical needle pricks physical skin means nothing at all. I'm too lazy now to look it up, but there's a study where the needles were not pushed into the skin at all (sham acupuncture) and the placebo feelies still kicked-in.

Bottom line, as far as I care, acupuncture is a pointless needle point.
Your last line doesn't actually follow from the previous ones. Even if acupuncture is purely a placebo, that doesn't make it pointless, because placebos do work for things like pain. Even if you know it's a placebo. Using acupuncture to cure cancer would be stupid (although as a placebo it might still help with discomfort and appetite from real treatments). Using it to try to treat chronic pain is actually reasonable.

Although this is still my favorite story about placebos. Note in particular the statement near the start about what it can treat, and the statement near the end about its side effects.
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:59 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your last line doesn't actually follow from the previous ones. Even if acupuncture is purely a placebo, that doesn't make it pointless, because placebos do work for things like pain. Even if you know it's a placebo. Using acupuncture to cure cancer would be stupid (although as a placebo it might still help with discomfort and appetite from real treatments). Using it to try to treat chronic pain is actually reasonable.

Although this is still my favorite story about placebos. Note in particular the statement near the start about what it can treat, and the statement near the end about its side effects.

Yeah... I don't know if I agree. If placebos were effective in treating pain would there not be less controversy, more variety and a lot less actual pain?

I find this placebo style argument, which is proper from a skeptical pov, to be an opening through which woo will flow and force the door open.

I suffer from the damnable "IBS" (the vagueness of its definition is another whole topic) and my pain is pretty much constant. I am in trouble and cannot find a way to control it. I feel actual anger when people suggest it's not real, that I can fool myself into feeling better.

(I don't mean your post specifically. My own family still pull the old "just get over it" card. Like I'm making it all up. That article refers to (in quotes, to boot!) "conditions that are defined by “self-observation” symptoms like pain, nausea, or fatigue." I despair.)
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Old 21st March 2017, 12:03 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
A lot of these studies are positive towards acupuncture. Maybe there is something in it after all?

Or perhaps they are biased toward acupuncture due to lack of blinding of the acupuncturist.
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Old 21st March 2017, 01:03 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Yeah... I don't know if I agree. If placebos were effective in treating pain would there not be less controversy, more variety and a lot less actual pain?
Not really, because although they work better than doing nothing, they don't always work, and their effects aren't usually dramatic.

Quote:
(I don't mean your post specifically. My own family still pull the old "just get over it" card. Like I'm making it all up. That article refers to (in quotes, to boot!) "conditions that are defined by “self-observation” symptoms like pain, nausea, or fatigue." I despair.)
I can see how that could be interpreted that way, but I don't think it should be read that way. In many cases, chronic pain does seem to be created by the nervous system through some sort of pernicious feedback loop. That doesn't mean that you're making anything up, and it doesn't mean you can just will it away, but it does mean that it's a nervous system issue more than an injury issue. This is where the self-reporting comes in. Acute injuries which cause pain can be assessed by a doctor based on the level of tissue damage. Chronic pain caused by neurological feedback loops cannot be assessed except by the patient. Placebos can do nothing to fix tissue damage, but the mind is a funny thing, and placebos do seem to do something about how the nervous system handles pain sensations.

Here's another good article about pain, this one written from the perspective of a medical doctor who also coaches strength training:
http://startingstrength.com/article/aches-and-pains
One of the things I've noticed myself after having done weightlifting for a while is that my own perception of pain has shifted. Because I've gotten plenty of delayed onset muscle soreness, I'm better able to assess the nature of my aches and pains. I know exactly what a sore muscle feels like, and a pulled tendon or inflamed ligaments don't feel like that. I got a back ache the other day, and it felt like muscle pain. Muscle pain is annoying, but it's nothing to worry about. So I basically ignored it, and it went away quickly. Previously, I would have been much more concerned about it as a possible sign of injury, and I would have tried to tip-toe around it, with any little tinge a cause for concern. And I'm sure it would have lingered on longer. I don't have any less pain than when I started weightlifting, but it seems to bother me less.

I don't know if there's any way to do anything like that in your situation. I'm not dealing with chronic pain, I'm just dealing with intermittent acute pain (and not severe) that's a normal part of not being young anymore. But the complexity of pain perception in either case is still worth noting.
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Old 21st March 2017, 01:25 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not really, because although they work better than doing nothing, they don't always work, and their effects aren't usually dramatic.



I can see how that could be interpreted that way, but I don't think it should be read that way. In many cases, chronic pain does seem to be created by the nervous system through some sort of pernicious feedback loop. That doesn't mean that you're making anything up, and it doesn't mean you can just will it away, but it does mean that it's a nervous system issue more than an injury issue. This is where the self-reporting comes in. Acute injuries which cause pain can be assessed by a doctor based on the level of tissue damage. Chronic pain caused by neurological feedback loops cannot be assessed except by the patient. Placebos can do nothing to fix tissue damage, but the mind is a funny thing, and placebos do seem to do something about how the nervous system handles pain sensations.

Here's another good article about pain, this one written from the perspective of a medical doctor who also coaches strength training:
http://startingstrength.com/article/aches-and-pains
One of the things I've noticed myself after having done weightlifting for a while is that my own perception of pain has shifted. Because I've gotten plenty of delayed onset muscle soreness, I'm better able to assess the nature of my aches and pains. I know exactly what a sore muscle feels like, and a pulled tendon or inflamed ligaments don't feel like that. I got a back ache the other day, and it felt like muscle pain. Muscle pain is annoying, but it's nothing to worry about. So I basically ignored it, and it went away quickly. Previously, I would have been much more concerned about it as a possible sign of injury, and I would have tried to tip-toe around it, with any little tinge a cause for concern. And I'm sure it would have lingered on longer. I don't have any less pain than when I started weightlifting, but it seems to bother me less.

I don't know if there's any way to do anything like that in your situation. I'm not dealing with chronic pain, I'm just dealing with intermittent acute pain (and not severe) that's a normal part of not being young anymore. But the complexity of pain perception in either case is still worth noting.
I better see your point, thanks. It is subjective, to a degree. I am the one who has to communicate my distress to the doctor, but there are physical signs: I am pale, I sweat, my eyes have dark circles, I am visibly shaking and reacting slowly to the world. Etc.

I don't have direct experience of a placebo that worked, but I cannot be certain that in my life I have not met one. It could be that the tablets I take for pain right now are such. It's a sobering thought.

On the other hand, I don't really think so. I'd have to spend energy I barely have, to investigate it. The irony gets a little dizzying.

My objection comes at the form of the argument:
Acupuncture could have something in it because: placebo, nerves, skin, <waves-hand>. This is not a strong line of argument — it's a xerox for homeopathy, chiropractic, etc.

(Okay, homeopathy has far fewer legs.)

Am I wrong?
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Old 21st March 2017, 08:45 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Allow me to give an anecdote that I don't understand and can't explain.

My Chinese grandmother-in-law once underwent stomach surgery with no anesthetic aside from acupuncture, because anesthetic was dangerous given her health. I know nothing about this aside from my wife's testimony and it certainly is hard to accept given my skepticism of the practice based on scientific studies. Nonetheless, I regard this testimony as very likely to be accurate.

Given that, I am conflicted about the efficacy of acupuncture. Is it possible that it was purely a placebo effect that allowed her to withstand surgery without pain? I've no idea.
Some people have a high pain tolerance. I suspect old Chinese women (my mother-in-law is one of them) generally do. Also, a sharp implement like a scalpel can cut without causing much pain. I've recovered from serious surgery without pain medication, and been sliced open and stitched up in various places without pain medication or significant pain.
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Old 24th March 2017, 10:55 PM   #56
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Yale School of Medicine
Anesthesiology

Pain Management
Acute Pain Service
[ . . .]
The Patient
Patients range in age from 16 to 95 and include:
• Individuals recovering from highly invasive and painful procedures
• Debilitated elderly who are opioid sensitive
• Patients who are opioid dependent and can tolerate standard doses of analgesics
• Patients allergic to morphine and demerol
[. . .]
When eliminating the cause of pain is not possible, the goal becomes symptom management. We use a team approach with participation from the patients and their families. Treatment modalities may include non-pharmacologic approaches such as cognitive behavioral therapy, acupuncture, biofeedback, neurofeedback or chiropractic interventions.

http://medicine.yale.edu/anesthesiol...ions/pain.aspx

And who else has gone to Yale? Yep you know who Steven Novella, MD is an academic clinical neurologist at the Yale University School of Medicine though he doesn't agree with what Yale has to say.

Two other articles worthy of review that address acupuncture:

1) https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...n-acupuncture/

2) https://cancer.stonybrookmedicine.ed...de/acupuncture

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Old 25th March 2017, 12:35 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Acupuncture works as well as one believes that it works.

Wrong. Your logic or your expression are faulty here. You are claiming that "belief" is all it takes to cure a sickness, in the same way that people claim that positive thinking will cure cancer. That is a false idea.

People can feel better from the placebo effect, if the ailment is not serious, or is "only" some kind of pain. But the placebo effect cannot actually effect any cure for anything that doesn't clear up on its own with a little time.

You need to either rethink, or readdress your expression of whatever you wanted to say.
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Old 25th March 2017, 12:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I can only speak from personal experience, but it worked for me.

I used to have moderate to severe pain in my lower back from an injury I received in a rugby tackle when I was younger (about 30 years ago). As I got older, the pain got steadily worse, and made it difficult to do everyday things such a riding a bike or driving a car. Sometimes, even sitting at a computer was painful. I tried several sessions with physiotherapists, chiropractors and osteopaths, all to no avail. I used to take some pretty heavy painkillers (Percoset, Oxycontin) Then, on the physiotherapist's recommendation, I went to an acupuncturist.... She connected wires from a small machine to the needles which passed a small, pulsing electric current through my body (a weird but not unpleasant sensation). Three sessions later, no more pain and it hasn't returned in a few years.

This is not proof or definitive by any means, but my experience makes it difficult for me to conclude that it doesn't work...


And that is not acupuncture!

Passing electrical currents through the body is an actual therapy, not the same as acupuncture. It just shows how the dishonesty of the mindset of these unregulated "therapists" allows her to call herself an acupuncturist when she is really doing something else.

It would be far better to have some scientific research into the sort of thing you have experienced, and get it regulated and provided by real doctors.

I'm glad for you that you lucked out when you were directed into the shady caverns of the unregulated SCAM markets. (SCAM = Supplementary and Complementary Alternative Medicine).
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Old 25th March 2017, 12:47 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
I recall reading somewhere that the "chi points" themselves, so confidently assumed, are imaginary and vary between any two nitwits with a needle.

Electricity, on the other volt, now that one I can see. Had it myself, though not a needle, just a wet pad. The rapid osculating of the muscle as the current varies is an intense workout in a short period.

These days I do a routine of stretches (taught me by my last physio) and they work well.

That reminds me of a programme on the BBC a few weeks ago where one of those twins who are doctors worked with a few people with chronic pain to get them off pain-killers. He found that one woman who could barely walk was able to completely come off pain killer medication by attending some kind of Tai Chi or other "martial art" type of exercise for a few weeks (or months), and she became pain free and very mobile. He rescued her life. Another woman got the same benefit from swimming.

Muscular improvement through such things (even a regular walking group) was effective in all of the long term and heavily medicated people he worked with.
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Old 25th March 2017, 01:28 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Allow me to give an anecdote that I don't understand and can't explain.

My Chinese grandmother-in-law once underwent stomach surgery with no anesthetic aside from acupuncture, because anesthetic was dangerous given her health. I know nothing about this aside from my wife's testimony and it certainly is hard to accept given my skepticism of the practice based on scientific studies. Nonetheless, I regard this testimony as very likely to be accurate.

Given that, I am conflicted about the efficacy of acupuncture. Is it possible that it was purely a placebo effect that allowed her to withstand surgery without pain? I've no idea.

As with all anecdotes, I expect others to take this account with a large grain of salt, but there it is.

Not many years ago I saw a programme about a surgeon who was not using anaesthetics for his surgery patients. He simply worked with them (not hypnotising them exactly, but psychologically preparing them over a period of time or something) to expect to feel no pain. They filmed an operation, some kind of open surgery where the body was open (chest or on the trunk of the body, right inside and wide open), while the patient was fully conscious throughout. The patient was reporting no pain whatsoever and was perfectly relaxed.

Totally amazing. Pain is indeed not a straightforward thing like the way an electric shock is simply a physics thing. The bodymind is after all a whole system. "More than the sum of its parts". And no pseudoscientific fake "therapy" required.
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Old 25th March 2017, 01:59 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Some people have a high pain tolerance. I suspect old Chinese women (my mother-in-law is one of them) generally do. Also, a sharp implement like a scalpel can cut without causing much pain. I've recovered from serious surgery without pain medication, and been sliced open and stitched up in various places without pain medication or significant pain.
Maybe that's what happened. I don't have any expertise in these matters and only have second hand tales.
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Old 25th March 2017, 10:37 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by asydhouse View Post
And that is not acupuncture!

Passing electrical currents through the body is an actual therapy, not the same as acupuncture. It just shows how the dishonesty of the mindset of these unregulated "therapists" allows her to call herself an acupuncturist when she is really doing something else.
It is one of the tools that acupuncturists use.

If a doctor only ever prescribes amoxycillin for everything from the common cold to cancer, you'd quickly stop going to that doctor. Doctors have a number of different tools in their toolbox, so that they don't have to rely on just the one thing. Relying on just the one thing is one of the hallmarks of quackery, but a lot of quacks don't do that. Acupuncturists will use acupuncture, TENS, massage, prescribe TCM, etc. Some of them may actually work. That doesn't mean that they're not acupuncturists.
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Old 25th March 2017, 11:10 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It is one of the tools that acupuncturists use.

If a doctor only ever prescribes amoxycillin for everything from the common cold to cancer, you'd quickly stop going to that doctor. Doctors have a number of different tools in their toolbox, so that they don't have to rely on just the one thing. Relying on just the one thing is one of the hallmarks of quackery, but a lot of quacks don't do that. Acupuncturists will use acupuncture, TENS, massage, prescribe TCM, etc. Some of them may actually work. That doesn't mean that they're not acupuncturists.

Quibble, squabble,
Ducks will waddle.

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Old 25th March 2017, 11:35 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by asydhouse View Post
Quibble, squabble,
Ducks will waddle.

Okay then.
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Old 26th March 2017, 05:18 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by asydhouse View Post
And that is not acupuncture!

Passing electrical currents through the body is an actual therapy, not the same as acupuncture.
It involves sticking lots of small needles into the body. That's acupuncture.

Quote:
It just shows how the dishonesty of the mindset of these unregulated "therapists" allows her to call herself an acupuncturist when she is really doing something else.
It's not traditional acupuncture, but it's still acupuncture. It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, saying that it's a mallard not a duck doesn't make sense. I'm not sure why you're arguing for strict purity of a word when you don't even like it. It's not like we insist on restricting surgeons to performing 18th century techniques.
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Old 26th March 2017, 07:12 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It involves sticking lots of small needles into the body. That's acupuncture.



It's not traditional acupuncture, but it's still acupuncture. It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, saying that it's a mallard not a duck doesn't make sense. I'm not sure why you're arguing for strict purity of a word when you don't even like it. It's not like we insist on restricting surgeons to performing 18th century techniques.

Because by your logic vaccinating people is acupuncture. You're arguing to give licence to scam artists to associate themselves with other practices that are effective, thereby allowing them to associate themselves and their bs in the minds of ignorant and/or gullible people with those effective treatments, and thereby encouraging them to trust dangerously deluded or outright con artist practices.

What's next on your agenda? Homeopaths prescribing drugs, so they can bait and switch to their money-spinning sugar pills for serious conditions?

Your allusion to surgeons smacks of disingenuity, since the idea of cutting is not related to some deluded woo which depends on an unscientific philosophy based in a fantasy.

What's the point of critical thinking if it's just to show off how much better you are at quibbling over definitions on the internet without affecting the bs happening in the communities that aren't reading it anyway? Here it really doesn't matter, but if one were to write a letter to a newspaper in the same vein to defend acupuncturists this way I would say that was actively promoting harm.
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Old 26th March 2017, 07:40 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by asydhouse View Post
You're arguing to give licence to scam artists to associate themselves with other practices that are effective, thereby allowing them to associate themselves and their bs in the minds of ignorant and/or gullible people with those effective treatments, and thereby encouraging them to trust dangerously deluded or outright con artist practices.
Have to agree with Syd on this one. There's no advantage in soft-excusing acupuncture; in blurring the picture so it may bleed into legitimacy. There will always be a time when the woo comes out. It casts a long shadow.
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Old 26th March 2017, 08:23 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Have to agree with Syd on this one. There's no advantage in soft-excusing acupuncture; in blurring the picture so it may bleed into legitimacy. There will always be a time when the woo comes out. It casts a long shadow.

Thank you Donn. I often feel the only reason people post here is just for the sake of arguing for its own sake. It wearies me no end.

ETA I'm off to watch England play a qualifying match for the World Cup (on telly, that is!).
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Old 26th March 2017, 12:20 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by asydhouse View Post
Because by your logic vaccinating people is acupuncture.
Yeah, no. Do you really need an explanation as to why that's not equivalent?

Quote:
You're arguing to give licence to scam artists
I said nothing about licenses. Where the hell did you get that from?

Quote:
What's next on your agenda?
Giving arsenic to small children, obviously.

Quote:
Your allusion to surgeons smacks of disingenuity, since the idea of cutting is not related to some deluded woo which depends on an unscientific philosophy based in a fantasy.
Well you're wrong there. Plenty of early surgery was based on woo, even when it worked (ie, trepanning to let out evil spirits).

Quote:
What's the point of critical thinking if it's just to show off how much better you are at quibbling over definitions on the internet without affecting the bs happening in the communities that aren't reading it anyway?
This entire thread isn't going to have any effect on anything. We're just here to chat.

Quote:
Here it really doesn't matter
Well, duh. So if you knew that, why are you getting so wound up?

Quote:
but if one were to write a letter to a newspaper in the same vein to defend acupuncturists this way I would say that was actively promoting harm.
Saying that it's a form of acupuncture is not a defense of acupuncture. There's a logical chasm you've gone leaping across.
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Old 26th March 2017, 12:58 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, no. Do you really need an explanation as to why that's not equivalent?



I said nothing about licenses. Where the hell did you get that from?



Giving arsenic to small children, obviously.



Well you're wrong there. Plenty of early surgery was based on woo, even when it worked (ie, trepanning to let out evil spirits).



This entire thread isn't going to have any effect on anything. We're just here to chat.



Well, duh. So if you knew that, why are you getting so wound up?



Saying that it's a form of acupuncture is not a defense of acupuncture. There's a logical chasm you've gone leaping across.


Neither did I. "Giving licence" is an English language idiom, which I'm sure you know. You demonstrate again disingenuous argument for the sake of argument.

I cannot be bothered with you.
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Old 26th March 2017, 01:35 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by asydhouse View Post
Neither did I. "Giving licence" is an English language idiom, which I'm sure you know. You demonstrate again disingenuous argument for the sake of argument.

I cannot be bothered with you.
I'm familiar with the idiom, but I really thought you meant licenses. Given how completely disconnected your level of outrage was from the actual content of my post (which, if you want to talk about common use of the English language, calling sticking a bunch of small needles into someone's skin "acupuncture" seems pretty damned reasonable), how was I to know you weren't way off base on that too? You're having a hissy fit because I think common interpretations of words are reasonable.

And you really aren't in any position to say that I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing. You're the one who got angry because someone called putting a bunch of needles into someone's skin "acupuncture". And you obviously could be bothered with me, or you wouldn't have responded the first time. If you want to keep disagreeing, fine, but you're well past the point of being credible with this act that you're the only reasonable one here.
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Old 26th March 2017, 04:56 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by ViewsofMars View Post
Yale School of Medicine
Anesthesiology
No scientific evidence that acupuncture works.
This looks like the Yale School of Medicine offering the woo that their patents believe in, e.g. acupuncture and chiropractic. No too bad since there are other medical institutions that go off the deep end, e.g. offer reiki (waving hands and "energy fields!). Standard acupuncture and chiropractic are fantasy based "treatments".

A Scientific American opinion piece. Harriet Hall states the scientific consensus:
Quote:
Hall: The published evidence on acupuncture indicates that it might be helpful for pain and possibly for postoperative nausea and vomiting, but not for any other indications. All the evidence is compatible with the hypothesis that acupuncture is no more than a placebo.
The others range from "acupuncture cannot work and so does not work" (correct but ignores the placebo effect) to a bit of exaggeration ("MacPherson: Strong evidence exists that acupuncture is effective for chronic pain conditions.")

An irrelevant search of the Stoney Brook Cancer Center that juts shows what they offer - no scientific research on acupuncture.

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Old 26th March 2017, 11:33 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm familiar with the idiom, but I really thought you meant licenses. Given how completely disconnected your level of outrage was from the actual content of my post (which, if you want to talk about common use of the English language, calling sticking a bunch of small needles into someone's skin "acupuncture" seems pretty damned reasonable), how was I to know you weren't way off base on that too? You're having a hissy fit because I think common interpretations of words are reasonable.

And you really aren't in any position to say that I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing. You're the one who got angry because someone called putting a bunch of needles into someone's skin "acupuncture". And you obviously could be bothered with me, or you wouldn't have responded the first time. If you want to keep disagreeing, fine, but you're well past the point of being credible with this act that you're the only reasonable one here.

My original statement was in no way an angry rant, and neither was my response to you. Despite having no respect for your defence of dishonest practitioners of "acupuncture", I was (just) willing to explain to you how your assertion equating any old action involving needles with "acupuncture" was moving the goal posts in special pleading for a scam "therapy", which I think is a dangerous outlook and practice for the vulnerable people you might thereby encourage to be bamboozled (all of it engendered in the first place by someone's earlier post saying "it worked for me", implying that acupuncture as commonly understood to be the actual definition of acupuncture had a real effect).

Don't try to claim that my concern for the ignorant and vulnerable has anything to do with a desire to refute every silly "argument" you advance in your cause of posturing sophistry.

"Outrage" "hissy fit"!

If you weren't projecting, you would have read the words I composed for your enlightenment and understood their meaning, instead of busily composing your "arguments" as you "read" what I wrote. Since you seem so keen to "debate", why don't you actually read what I wrote and consider my message first before thinking up come backs?

Now I'm not going to engage with you in this any more. I'm sick of pedantic "arguing".
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Old 26th March 2017, 11:44 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by asydhouse View Post
Not many years ago I saw a programme about a surgeon who was not using anaesthetics for his surgery patients. He simply worked with them (not hypnotising them exactly, but psychologically preparing them over a period of time or something) to expect to feel no pain. They filmed an operation, some kind of open surgery where the body was open (chest or on the trunk of the body, right inside and wide open), while the patient was fully conscious throughout. The patient was reporting no pain whatsoever and was perfectly relaxed.

They film Bigfoot and flying saucers too.
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Old 27th March 2017, 03:29 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
They film Bigfoot and flying saucers too.
I'm sure Syd would agree. There are also local anaesthetics which can leave a patient wide awake and talking. It's possible to secretly use those while aping acupuncture.
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Old 27th March 2017, 06:25 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by asydhouse View Post
My original statement was in no way an angry rant
And nothing I said was a defense of pseudoscience.

Quote:
I was (just) willing to explain to you how your assertion equating any old action involving needles with "acupuncture"
Your comparison was ridiculous and wrong. Let's refer to my actual words:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It involves sticking lots of small needles into the body. That's acupuncture.
How many needles do you use for vaccination? One. Does one count as "lots"? No, it does not.

Vaccinations are not acupuncture even under my loose definition.

Quote:
(all of it engendered in the first place by someone's earlier post saying "it worked for me", implying that acupuncture as commonly understood to be the actual definition of acupuncture had a real effect).
As commonly understood, what he had done falls under acupuncture. Which is why he called it acupuncture, because that's how he thought of it. You may not like this general understanding of the meaning of the word, you may object to it, and your grounds for objection may even be quite sensible. But that doesn't change how the word is actually understood.

Quote:
Don't try to claim that my concern for the ignorant and vulnerable has anything to do with a desire to refute every silly "argument" you advance in your cause of posturing sophistry.
Your semantic objection (and that's all it is) protects nobody.

Quote:
Now I'm not going to engage with you in this any more. I'm sick of pedantic "arguing".
Promises, promises.
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Old 27th March 2017, 07:00 AM   #77
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If electroacupuncture is effective, the fact that needles were used is in all likelihood irrelevant. Any method of delivering the current similarly would have the same effect. If you don't like the analogy of delivering drugs through a single needle, then consider delivering drugs through multiple needles in specified locations.
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Old 27th March 2017, 07:08 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
If electroacupuncture is effective, the fact that needles were used is in all likelihood irrelevant.
Quite likely, but we don't know that for certain. Nevertheless, that's how it was done in this case.

Quote:
If you don't like the analogy of delivering drugs through a single needle, then consider delivering drugs through multiple needles in specified locations.
Suppose someone did decide to deliver vaccines through lots of tiny needles simultaneously. Suppose I called it acupuncture. What then? What terrible calamity would ensue?
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Old 27th March 2017, 07:30 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quite likely, but we don't know that for certain. Nevertheless, that's how it was done in this case.



Suppose someone did decide to deliver vaccines through lots of tiny needles simultaneously. Suppose I called it acupuncture. What then? What terrible calamity would ensue?
"Acupuncture" means something: it's a system of dubious origins and complete woo. To take the label out of that and stick it on anything science-based is perverse. We may as well describe medicine as homeopathy because it often involves little bottles of liquids and pills.
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Old 27th March 2017, 07:49 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
"Acupuncture" means something: it's a system of dubious origins and complete woo. To take the label out of that and stick it on anything science-based is perverse.
Who said that this electric treatment was science-based? You're making an unfounded assumption here. There are scientific reasons to suspect that it might work, but that doesn't mean it's scientifically based. Leaches sometimes work too, doesn't mean its early practitioners knew what the hell they were doing. Same with trepanning.
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