A Silent Night Except For The Jingling Of Bells.

Thor 2 · 18th December 2020, 01:21 PM

When shopping at this time of year our ears are buffeted, by a mixed collection of Christmas song. It amuses me considerably when I hear Silent Night followed by Jingle Bells. The two carols celebrating completely different events.

My past religious brother was most annoyed, at what he saw as the highjacking of Christmas, by Santa Claus. My counter argument, that it was in fact Christians that did the highjacking, when deciding to make December 25, the time of the birth of The Son, instead of the birth of The Sun, was not received well.

Thermal · 18th December 2020, 01:27 PM

I dunno. Both songs celebrate different kinds of joy, right?

Pair Silent Night against The Kinks Father Christmas and you got yourself a horse race

Sideroxylon · 18th December 2020, 01:28 PM

Who gives a **** about the Christmas stuff and decorations. Don’t get me started on the ******* carols.

Jim_MDP · 18th December 2020, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Who gives a **** about the Christmas stuff and decorations. Don’t get me started on the ******* carols.

Alright... take a breath, Melanie.

theprestige · 18th December 2020, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

When shopping at this time of year our ears are buffeted, by a mixed collection of Christmas song. It amuses me considerably when I hear Silent Night followed by Jingle Bells. The two carols celebrating completely different events.

My past religious brother was most annoyed, at what he saw as the highjacking of Christmas, by Santa Claus. My counter argument, that it was in fact Christians that did the highjacking, when deciding to make December 25, the time of the birth of The Son, instead of the birth of The Sun, was not received well.

The birth of the sun or the birth of the year seems like the appropriate season to celebrate the birth of the deity. I'm sorry pagans think they're entitled to a monopoly on calendars and seasons. #sorrynotsorry.

Thor 2 · 18th December 2020, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

The birth of the sun or the birth of the year seems like the appropriate season to celebrate the birth of the deity. I'm sorry pagans think they're entitled to a monopoly on calendars and seasons. #sorrynotsorry.

I remember reading Bertrand Russell many years ago, addressing the question of whether religion had any beneficial results. Begrudgingly he conceded it encouraged the setting of calendars.

alfaniner · 18th December 2020, 04:01 PM

Last weekend I had to pick up some things at Home Depot, and of course there was Chrismas music playing. I actually found it enjoyable because staying at home and listening to my own music, I hadn't already been bombarded with the tunes.

EHocking · 18th December 2020, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Who gives a **** about the Christmas stuff and decorations. Don’t get me started on the ******* carols.

This post sounds more like a Karen than a Carol.

Trebuchet · 18th December 2020, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

Last weekend I had to pick up some things at Home Depot, and of course there was Chrismas music playing. I actually found it enjoyable because staying at home and listening to my own music, I hadn't already been bombarded with the tunes.

Wait, what? "Last weekend"? Hell, it was already December. I've been seeing Christmas Crappe in the stores since October!

8enotto · 18th December 2020, 07:21 PM

I do xmas for the family and repress my inner grinch.

Before I married xmas season was joyful for egg nog and pumpkin pies in the stores. But I avoided dept stores from late November to 3rd of January.

I still enjoy giving gifts but that horrible music should be stopped.

alfaniner · 18th December 2020, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Wait, what? "Last weekend"? Hell, it was already December. I've been seeing Christmas Crappe in the stores since October!

Speaks to how isolated I've been.

Delvo · 19th December 2020, 12:16 AM

My workplace has begun mixing Christmas songs in with the regular ones. But whoever runs our playlist has/have gone out of his/her/their way to pick the very worst Christmas music they can find. There's not a single one that actually sounds like a Christmas carol. We're just getting 1980s/1990s pop rejects and some things that are so excessively slowed down they seem to be trying to make the holiday sound sad.

Originally Posted by Thor 2

My counter argument, that it was in fact Christians that did the highjacking, when deciding to make December 25, the time of the birth of The Son, instead of the birth of The Sun, was not received well.

That's not how the date was picked. The first guy to say it was on the winter solstice spelled out his reasoning quite clearly (although I don't recall his name.) It was based on the idea that Jesus was conceived in spring, because he died in spring and people expected the beginning & ending dates for his life, with conception being the beginning, to match. (Also it was more natural to think of equinoxes as signifiers of important change than soltices.) And this author wrote this determination many years earlier than we can really trace back the evidence for most aspects of what we now think of as Christmas overall, so there wasn't anything much like "Christmas" around yet to even think of trying to merge Jesus's birthday into.

For stuff I wouldn't expect most Christians to like hearing about Christmas, I'm surprised I don't more often encounter non-Christians quoting the Bible verses that seem to ban Christmas trees. That's really not quite what they're saying (there were no objects we could really call "Christmas trees" to ban in ancient Israel/Judah/Palestine), but the explanation only takes it farther away from what Christians would expect. It's referring to ancient Jewish worship of one of their dozens of other gods, from back when Yahweh was just one of them, although he was apparently already their favorite. The decorated tree (sometimes translated as a pole anyway) was a symbol of not just any other god but Yahweh's/El's wife. When the Jews were still in the process of narrowing down their range of gods, she was one of the last to go, so there are relatively late temples with two altars: one for him and one for her. The Old Testament was written while the monotheists were still in the process of trying to stamp out that kind of thing.

Originally Posted by Thor 2

I remember reading Bertrand Russell many years ago, addressing the question of whether religion had any beneficial results. Begrudgingly he conceded it encouraged the setting of calendars.

Interesting... my first reaction was that planning for agriculture, war, and nomadic/migratory lifestyles all called for ability to predict seasons, but then I noticed that the level of precision is lower. Seasonal matters don't require having anything down to a specific day; they work on a scale that only really changes (reliably) on the order of a few weeks.

SteveAitch · 19th December 2020, 08:25 AM

This is all very well, just beware Whamaggedon!

Thor 2 · 19th December 2020, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Delvo

........

That's not how the date was picked. The first guy to say it was on the winter solstice spelled out his reasoning quite clearly (although I don't recall his name.)

.......

Be interesting to know the name of this first guy.

From the ever reliable Wikki:

Quote:

Though December 25 is the day Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, the date itself and several of the customs we've come to associate with Christmas actually evolved from pagan traditions celebrating the winter solstice.

"Christmas is really about bringing out your inner pagan," historian Kenneth C. Davis told "CBS This Morning." According to Davis, Christmas was celebrated as early as the fourth century, suggesting that it had almost nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

"In ancient Rome there was a feast called Saturnalia that celebrated the solstice. What is the solstice? It's the day that the sun starts coming back, the days start getting longer. And most of the traditions that we have that relate to Christmas relate to the solstice, which was celebrated in ancient Rome on December 25. So when Christianity became the official religion in a sense, in Rome, they were able to fix this date. ... There's a little discrepancy about it but there's no question that the fact that it was celebrated in Rome as an important day with gift giving, candle lighting, and singing and decorating houses really cemented Christmas as December 25."

Delvo · 20th December 2020, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Delvo

The first guy to say it was on the winter solstice spelled out his reasoning quite clearly (although I don't recall his name.) It was based on the idea that Jesus was conceived in spring, because he died in spring and people expected the beginning & ending dates for his life, with conception being the beginning, to match.

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Be interesting to know the name of this first guy.

It turned out to be anonymous.

Originally Posted by anonymous treatise On Solstices And Equinoxes (300s; 4th Century)

Therefore our Lord was conceived on the 8th of the kalends of April in the month of March (March 25th), which is the day of the Passion of the Lord and of his conception, for on that day he was conceived and on the same day he suffered.

Not long after that, the conclusion and the importance of Jesus's conception being the same date as his death were also accepted and expanded upon by Saint Augustine, who did some numerology with it while making his case about the importance of the numbers 40 and 6:

Originally Posted by On The Trinity, by Saint Augustine (early 400s; early 5th Century)

He is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day also He suffered... He was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th. If, then you reckon from that day to this, you find 276 days, which is 46×6. And in this number of years (46) the temple was built, because in that number of sixes (of days) the body of the Lord was perfected...

And those are the only comments about the date of Jesus's birth from anywhere near that early. Not only is there no text from back then saying his birth date should be assigned to the same time of year as Saturnalia, but there aren't any from critics claiming that that had been how it went either. So when & where did the idea first appear?

Originally Posted by Jacob Bar-Salibi

It was a custom of the pagans to celebrate on the same December 25th the birthday of the Sun. In these solemnities and revelries the Christians also took part. Accordingly, when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnized on that day.

Both the "when" and the "where" are significant. Jacob Bar-Salibi was born in eastern Turkey in the early 1100s, became bishop of a Syriac Orthodox church in eastern Turkey in 1154, and died in 1171. In eastern Christianity, in & around the Byzantine Empire, Christmas was on January 6th (which itself also goes a bit against the Saturnalia connection anyway). So not only were there between 7 and 8 centuries of linking Jesus's conception date and death date before the idea that Saturnalia had anything to do with it showed up, but also, the Saturnalia thing came from an eastern writer trying to come up with an explanation for why those western weirdos got it wrong.

But there's still a tiny bit more. Given the fact that eastern churches also put Jesus's death on April 6th instead of March 25th, the same reasoning based on a 9-month gap applies to both the eastern and western date sets. So it looks like the link between Jesus's death and conception was already established before the eastern & western Christian calendars split. Jacob Bar-Salibi thought an explanation was needed for why the westerners got one date wrong, but, if he had noticed at the same time that they also had the other date wrong, he might have figured out that the westerners actually had both of them wrong in the same way and thus actually agreed with him on the connection between the two dates.

arthwollipot · 21st December 2020, 11:44 PM

Personally, I despise Christmas music. Hate it. Absolutely hate it with a fiery passion that surpasses reason. Except perhaps for White Wine In The Sun. But I am not curmudgeonly enough to allow my dislike of something from spoiling someone else's fun.

Originally Posted by SteveAitch

This is all very well, just beware Whamaggedon!

All my FFriends are doing it, but I honestly wouldn't even recognise it if I heard it.

Hlafordlaes · 22nd December 2020, 12:17 AM

I love everything about family time and Christmas.

Except Fake Christians. No objection to the Salvation Army and genuine Samaritans, with no grudge for their holding to myth. The rest can go stuff a stocking with Rapture coupons, then have a dance with St. Vitus.

SteveAitch · 22nd December 2020, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Personally, I despise Christmas music. Hate it. Absolutely hate it with a fiery passion that surpasses reason. Except perhaps for White Wine In The Sun. But I am not curmudgeonly enough to allow my dislike of something from spoiling someone else's fun.

What? Even this?

alfaniner · 22nd December 2020, 09:16 AM

The one I've really come to hate this year is "Iiiiiiilllll Be Hoooooooomme for Chrisssssssst-maaaaaaaaaaass...". Last year's version was sung by one of the resident kids but this year it's some country singer. It's for the Shriner's Hospital whose commercials always make me feel like those kids are exploited and on display. I don't even think the song is particularly appropriate to their situations.

Trebuchet · 22nd December 2020, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

The one I've really come to hate this year is "Iiiiiiilllll Be Hoooooooomme for Chrisssssssst-maaaaaaaaaaass...". Last year's version was sung by one of the resident kids but this year it's some country singer. It's for the Shriner's Hospital whose commercials always make me feel like those kids are exploited and on display. I don't even think the song is particularly appropriate to their situations.

And the same kids have been on their ads for what seems like decades, and never get older. It's creepy!

theprestige · 22nd December 2020, 12:54 PM

I once had a co-worker who habitually whistled Christmas carols in the workplace. All year long. Mid summer, he's in the break room filling out paperwork, whistling Christmas carols.

His explanation: "So you'll have Christmas carols stuck in your head all year." He wasn't religious or fanatical about Christmas or anything like that. He just thought it was hilarious to give people Christmas carol earworms out of season.

alfaniner · 22nd December 2020, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I once had a co-worker who habitually whistled Christmas carols in the workplace. All year long. Mid summer, he's in the break room filling out paperwork, whistling Christmas carols.

His explanation: "So you'll have Christmas carols stuck in your head all year." He wasn't religious or fanatical about Christmas or anything like that. He just thought it was hilarious to give people Christmas carol earworms out of season.

I'd spit in his coffee just for the whistling. I hate whistling.

Thermal · 22nd December 2020, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I once had a co-worker who habitually whistled Christmas carols in the workplace. All year long. Mid summer, he's in the break room filling out paperwork, whistling Christmas carols.

His explanation: "So you'll have Christmas carols stuck in your head all year." He wasn't religious or fanatical about Christmas or anything like that. He just thought it was hilarious to give people Christmas carol earworms out of season.

Westboro Baptist uses a similar strategy to bring out the best in folks.

Thor 2 · 22nd December 2020, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Personally, I despise Christmas music. Hate it. Absolutely hate it with a fiery passion that surpasses reason. Except perhaps for White Wine In The Sun. But I am not curmudgeonly enough to allow my dislike of something from spoiling someone else's fun.

I'm with you there arth. The continuous repetition on and on just drives me nuts. Just as well we aren't subjected to the same thing at Easter, although the ring of a hammer striking a nail might be melodious.

MarkCorrigan · 22nd December 2020, 05:27 PM

Personally I love Christmas music. There are only a few of the "usual suspect" songs I despise.

Originally Posted by SteveAitch

What? Even this?

This is one I hate but fortunately for me it hasn't crossed the pond so I never have to hear it.

arthwollipot · 22nd December 2020, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

I'm with you there arth. The continuous repetition on and on just drives me nuts. Just as well we aren't subjected to the same thing at Easter, although the ring of a hammer striking a nail might be melodious.

Part of my problem is that most of the traditional Christmas music is explicitly religious in nature. That makes sense. But Christmas long been entirely divorced from whatever religious feelings I might ever have had so it doesn't make sense to me to sing what are essentially hymns of praise.

Those Christmas songs that aren't explicitly religious are inane. They are for the most part musically uninteresting and repetitive, or designed specifically to get into your head and never leave until displaced by the next brainlessly happy melody.

If someone likes their Christmas music, that's fine by me. If they insist on playing it in my earshot, I will leave the area.

Oh, and Rudolf is an awful song about how everyone makes fun of the deformed kid until one day he becomes useful to them.

Sideroxylon · 22nd December 2020, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Personally I love Christmas music. There are only a few of the "usual suspect" songs I despise.

This is one I hate but fortunately for me it hasn't crossed the pond so I never have to hear it.

Like all music, it all comes down to the performance. With a bit of artistic license and injection of personality even Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer could be a winner. A lot of what we hear in the shopping mall is muzak.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

arthwollipot · 22nd December 2020, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Like all music, it all comes down to the performance. With a bit of artistic license and injection of personality even Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer could be a winner. A lot of what we hear in the shopping mall is muzak.

It is the latter that is most ubiquitous and hardest to avoid.

Oystein · 2nd January 2021, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I once had a co-worker who habitually whistled Christmas carols in the workplace. All year long. Mid summer, he's in the break room filling out paperwork, whistling Christmas carols. ...

I am a nurse, tending to demented people in a senior citizens residence.

One July, on a particularly hot day, I was giving a particular resident a shower, and all the while we talked about singing, and he remembered how he used to sing in a church choir, and how the best service was Christmas Eve, and particularly when the choir and everyone sang "Silent Night". And then, we both sang Silent Night, loudly, with all our hearts, while sweating in a hot July bathroom. I have never seen that man so happy before or after.
Actually one of my fondest stories from my work so far, never fails to water my eyes

alfaniner · 2nd January 2021, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Oystein

I am a nurse, tending to demented people in a senior citizens residence.

One July, on a particularly hot day, I was giving a particular resident a shower, and all the while we talked about singing, and he remembered how he used to sing in a church choir, and how the best service was Christmas Eve, and particularly when the choir and everyone sang "Silent Night". And then, we both sang Silent Night, loudly, with all our hearts, while sweating in a hot July bathroom. I have never seen that man so happy before or after.
Actually one of my fondest stories from my work so far, never fails to water my eyes

I was going to make a gripey post of my own but I liked yours so much I decided to enjoy it instead.

Thor 2 · 2nd January 2021, 08:43 PM

Oh come on alfaniner, lets see your gripey post.

Oystein · 3rd January 2021, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Oh come on alfaniner, lets see your gripey post.

2nded

gabeygoat · 3rd January 2021, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Oystein

I am a nurse, tending to demented people in a senior citizens residence.

One July, on a particularly hot day, I was giving a particular resident a shower, and all the while we talked about singing, and he remembered how he used to sing in a church choir, and how the best service was Christmas Eve, and particularly when the choir and everyone sang "Silent Night". And then, we both sang Silent Night, loudly, with all our hearts, while sweating in a hot July bathroom. I have never seen that man so happy before or after.
Actually one of my fondest stories from my work so far, never fails to water my eyes

I like that

alfaniner · 3rd January 2021, 06:35 PM

OK.
Even as of today I'm seeing a couple commercials with Christmas themes. The one that really pisses me off is the freezing dogs one, which starts with a long, dolly-in shot of the saddest-looking boxer you've ever seen. And The First Noel starts. And goes on... and on... The only reason for using that song is for when the voiceover stops and you get to hear "on a cold winter's night that was so deep." There's a similar one for homeless kids that uses Silent Night.

I hate that they use peaceful, evocative music that has nothing to do with the subject matter. And every time I see it I say "Put the camera down and tend to that poor dog!" But by now I dive for that remote when it starts.

Thor 2 · 3rd January 2021, 07:33 PM

Well done alfaniner! I give you 9 out of 10 for that gripe.

I want to see more gripes and less of the mussy stuff.

Minoosh · 5th January 2021, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Oh come on alfaniner, lets see your gripey post.

Oh come alfaniner,
gripey and reluctant ...

18th December 2020, 01:21 PM	#1
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,611	A Silent Night Except For The Jingling Of Bells. When shopping at this time of year our ears are buffeted, by a mixed collection of Christmas song. It amuses me considerably when I hear Silent Night followed by Jingle Bells. The two carols celebrating completely different events. My past religious brother was most annoyed, at what he saw as the highjacking of Christmas, by Santa Claus. My counter argument, that it was in fact Christians that did the highjacking, when deciding to make December 25, the time of the birth of The Son, instead of the birth of The Sun, was not received well.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

18th December 2020, 01:27 PM	#2
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	I dunno. Both songs celebrate different kinds of joy, right? Pair Silent Night against The Kinks Father Christmas and you got yourself a horse race
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

18th December 2020, 03:30 PM	#4
Jim_MDP Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: N.Cal/S.Or Posts: 8,025	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Who gives a ** about the Christmas stuff and decorations. Don’t get me started on the ***** carols. Alright... take a breath, Melanie.
	__________________ ---------------------- Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything. "Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust. "Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.

18th December 2020, 03:56 PM	#6
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,611	Originally Posted by theprestige The birth of the sun or the birth of the year seems like the appropriate season to celebrate the birth of the deity. I'm sorry pagans think they're entitled to a monopoly on calendars and seasons. #sorrynotsorry. I remember reading Bertrand Russell many years ago, addressing the question of whether religion had any beneficial results. Begrudgingly he conceded it encouraged the setting of calendars.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

18th December 2020, 04:01 PM	#7
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,896	Last weekend I had to pick up some things at Home Depot, and of course there was Chrismas music playing. I actually found it enjoyable because staying at home and listening to my own music, I hadn't already been bombarded with the tunes.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

18th December 2020, 01:28 PM	#3
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,333	Who gives a ** about the Christmas stuff and decorations. Don’t get me started on the ***** carols.

18th December 2020, 03:38 PM	#5
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,693	Originally Posted by Thor 2 When shopping at this time of year our ears are buffeted, by a mixed collection of Christmas song. It amuses me considerably when I hear Silent Night followed by Jingle Bells. The two carols celebrating completely different events. My past religious brother was most annoyed, at what he saw as the highjacking of Christmas, by Santa Claus. My counter argument, that it was in fact Christians that did the highjacking, when deciding to make December 25, the time of the birth of The Son, instead of the birth of The Sun, was not received well. The birth of the sun or the birth of the year seems like the appropriate season to celebrate the birth of the deity. I'm sorry pagans think they're entitled to a monopoly on calendars and seasons. #sorrynotsorry.

18th December 2020, 06:11 PM	#8
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,550	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Who gives a ** about the Christmas stuff and decorations. Don’t get me started on the ***** carols. This post sounds more like a Karen than a Carol.
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,550	__________________ "A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. Art Buchwald

18th December 2020, 06:22 PM	#9
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,067	Originally Posted by alfaniner Last weekend I had to pick up some things at Home Depot, and of course there was Chrismas music playing. I actually found it enjoyable because staying at home and listening to my own music, I hadn't already been bombarded with the tunes. Wait, what? "Last weekend"? Hell, it was already December. I've been seeing Christmas Crappe in the stores since October!
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

18th December 2020, 07:21 PM	#10
8enotto Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 1,866	I do xmas for the family and repress my inner grinch. Before I married xmas season was joyful for egg nog and pumpkin pies in the stores. But I avoided dept stores from late November to 3rd of January. I still enjoy giving gifts but that horrible music should be stopped.

18th December 2020, 08:31 PM	#11
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,896	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Wait, what? "Last weekend"? Hell, it was already December. I've been seeing Christmas Crappe in the stores since October! Speaks to how isolated I've been.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

19th December 2020, 12:16 AM	#12
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,306	My workplace has begun mixing Christmas songs in with the regular ones. But whoever runs our playlist has/have gone out of his/her/their way to pick the very worst Christmas music they can find. There's not a single one that actually sounds like a Christmas carol. We're just getting 1980s/1990s pop rejects and some things that are so excessively slowed down they seem to be trying to make the holiday sound sad. Originally Posted by Thor 2 My counter argument, that it was in fact Christians that did the highjacking, when deciding to make December 25, the time of the birth of The Son, instead of the birth of The Sun, was not received well. That's not how the date was picked. The first guy to say it was on the winter solstice spelled out his reasoning quite clearly (although I don't recall his name.) It was based on the idea that Jesus was conceived in spring, because he died in spring and people expected the beginning & ending dates for his life, with conception being the beginning, to match. (Also it was more natural to think of equinoxes as signifiers of important change than soltices.) And this author wrote this determination many years earlier than we can really trace back the evidence for most aspects of what we now think of as Christmas overall, so there wasn't anything much like "Christmas" around yet to even think of trying to merge Jesus's birthday into. For stuff I wouldn't expect most Christians to like hearing about Christmas, I'm surprised I don't more often encounter non-Christians quoting the Bible verses that seem to ban Christmas trees. That's really not quite what they're saying (there were no objects we could really call "Christmas trees" to ban in ancient Israel/Judah/Palestine), but the explanation only takes it farther away from what Christians would expect. It's referring to ancient Jewish worship of one of their dozens of other gods, from back when Yahweh was just one of them, although he was apparently already their favorite. The decorated tree (sometimes translated as a pole anyway) was a symbol of not just any other god but Yahweh's/El's wife. When the Jews were still in the process of narrowing down their range of gods, she was one of the last to go, so there are relatively late temples with two altars: one for him and one for her. The Old Testament was written while the monotheists were still in the process of trying to stamp out that kind of thing. Originally Posted by Thor 2 I remember reading Bertrand Russell many years ago, addressing the question of whether religion had any beneficial results. Begrudgingly he conceded it encouraged the setting of calendars. Interesting... my first reaction was that planning for agriculture, war, and nomadic/migratory lifestyles all called for ability to predict seasons, but then I noticed that the level of precision is lower. Seasonal matters don't require having anything down to a specific day; they work on a scale that only really changes (reliably) on the order of a few weeks.

19th December 2020, 08:25 AM	#13
SteveAitch Thinker Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: St Aines Posts: 129	This is all very well, just beware Whamaggedon!

19th December 2020, 12:53 PM	#14
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,611	Originally Posted by Delvo ........ That's not how the date was picked. The first guy to say it was on the winter solstice spelled out his reasoning quite clearly (although I don't recall his name.) ....... Be interesting to know the name of this first guy. From the ever reliable Wikki: Quote: Though December 25 is the day Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, the date itself and several of the customs we've come to associate with Christmas actually evolved from pagan traditions celebrating the winter solstice. "Christmas is really about bringing out your inner pagan," historian Kenneth C. Davis told "CBS This Morning." According to Davis, Christmas was celebrated as early as the fourth century, suggesting that it had almost nothing to do with Jesus Christ. "In ancient Rome there was a feast called Saturnalia that celebrated the solstice. What is the solstice? It's the day that the sun starts coming back, the days start getting longer. And most of the traditions that we have that relate to Christmas relate to the solstice, which was celebrated in ancient Rome on December 25. So when Christianity became the official religion in a sense, in Rome, they were able to fix this date. ... There's a little discrepancy about it but there's no question that the fact that it was celebrated in Rome as an important day with gift giving, candle lighting, and singing and decorating houses really cemented Christmas as December 25."
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

20th December 2020, 09:04 AM	#15
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,306	Originally Posted by Delvo The first guy to say it was on the winter solstice spelled out his reasoning quite clearly (although I don't recall his name.) It was based on the idea that Jesus was conceived in spring, because he died in spring and people expected the beginning & ending dates for his life, with conception being the beginning, to match. Originally Posted by Thor 2 Be interesting to know the name of this first guy. It turned out to be anonymous. Originally Posted by anonymous treatise On Solstices And Equinoxes (300s; 4th Century) Therefore our Lord was conceived on the 8th of the kalends of April in the month of March (March 25th), which is the day of the Passion of the Lord and of his conception, for on that day he was conceived and on the same day he suffered. Not long after that, the conclusion and the importance of Jesus's conception being the same date as his death were also accepted and expanded upon by Saint Augustine, who did some numerology with it while making his case about the importance of the numbers 40 and 6: Originally Posted by On The Trinity, by Saint Augustine (early 400s; early 5th Century) He is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day also He suffered... He was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th. If, then you reckon from that day to this, you find 276 days, which is 46×6. And in this number of years (46) the temple was built, because in that number of sixes (of days) the body of the Lord was perfected... And those are the only comments about the date of Jesus's birth from anywhere near that early. Not only is there no text from back then saying his birth date should be assigned to the same time of year as Saturnalia, but there aren't any from critics claiming that that had been how it went either. So when & where did the idea first appear? Originally Posted by Jacob Bar-Salibi It was a custom of the pagans to celebrate on the same December 25th the birthday of the Sun. In these solemnities and revelries the Christians also took part. Accordingly, when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnized on that day. Both the "when" and the "where" are significant. Jacob Bar-Salibi was born in eastern Turkey in the early 1100s, became bishop of a Syriac Orthodox church in eastern Turkey in 1154, and died in 1171. In eastern Christianity, in & around the Byzantine Empire, Christmas was on January 6th (which itself also goes a bit against the Saturnalia connection anyway). So not only were there between 7 and 8 centuries of linking Jesus's conception date and death date before the idea that Saturnalia had anything to do with it showed up, but also, the Saturnalia thing came from an eastern writer trying to come up with an explanation for why those western weirdos got it wrong. But there's still a tiny bit more. Given the fact that eastern churches also put Jesus's death on April 6th instead of March 25th, the same reasoning based on a 9-month gap applies to both the eastern and western date sets. So it looks like the link between Jesus's death and conception was already established before the eastern & western Christian calendars split. Jacob Bar-Salibi thought an explanation was needed for why the westerners got one date wrong, but, if he had noticed at the same time that they also had the other date wrong, he might have figured out that the westerners actually had both of them wrong in the same way and thus actually agreed with him on the connection between the two dates.

21st December 2020, 11:44 PM	#16
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 70,317	Personally, I despise Christmas music. Hate it. Absolutely hate it with a fiery passion that surpasses reason. Except perhaps for White Wine In The Sun. But I am not curmudgeonly enough to allow my dislike of something from spoiling someone else's fun. Originally Posted by SteveAitch This is all very well, just beware Whamaggedon! All my FFriends are doing it, but I honestly wouldn't even recognise it if I heard it.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

22nd December 2020, 12:17 AM	#17
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 14,688	I love everything about family time and Christmas. Except Fake Christians. No objection to the Salvation Army and genuine Samaritans, with no grudge for their holding to myth. The rest can go stuff a stocking with Rapture coupons, then have a dance with St. Vitus.
	__________________ Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

22nd December 2020, 02:35 AM	#18
SteveAitch Thinker Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: St Aines Posts: 129	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Personally, I despise Christmas music. Hate it. Absolutely hate it with a fiery passion that surpasses reason. Except perhaps for White Wine In The Sun. But I am not curmudgeonly enough to allow my dislike of something from spoiling someone else's fun. What? Even this?

22nd December 2020, 09:16 AM	#19
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,896	The one I've really come to hate this year is "Iiiiiiilllll Be Hoooooooomme for Chrisssssssst-maaaaaaaaaaass...". Last year's version was sung by one of the resident kids but this year it's some country singer. It's for the Shriner's Hospital whose commercials always make me feel like those kids are exploited and on display. I don't even think the song is particularly appropriate to their situations.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

22nd December 2020, 12:07 PM	#20
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,067	Originally Posted by alfaniner The one I've really come to hate this year is "Iiiiiiilllll Be Hoooooooomme for Chrisssssssst-maaaaaaaaaaass...". Last year's version was sung by one of the resident kids but this year it's some country singer. It's for the Shriner's Hospital whose commercials always make me feel like those kids are exploited and on display. I don't even think the song is particularly appropriate to their situations. And the same kids have been on their ads for what seems like decades, and never get older. It's creepy!
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

22nd December 2020, 12:54 PM	#21
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,693	I once had a co-worker who habitually whistled Christmas carols in the workplace. All year long. Mid summer, he's in the break room filling out paperwork, whistling Christmas carols. His explanation: "So you'll have Christmas carols stuck in your head all year." He wasn't religious or fanatical about Christmas or anything like that. He just thought it was hilarious to give people Christmas carol earworms out of season.

22nd December 2020, 01:11 PM	#22
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,896	Originally Posted by theprestige I once had a co-worker who habitually whistled Christmas carols in the workplace. All year long. Mid summer, he's in the break room filling out paperwork, whistling Christmas carols. His explanation: "So you'll have Christmas carols stuck in your head all year." He wasn't religious or fanatical about Christmas or anything like that. He just thought it was hilarious to give people Christmas carol earworms out of season. I'd spit in his coffee just for the whistling. I hate whistling.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

22nd December 2020, 01:31 PM	#24
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,611	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Personally, I despise Christmas music. Hate it. Absolutely hate it with a fiery passion that surpasses reason. Except perhaps for White Wine In The Sun. But I am not curmudgeonly enough to allow my dislike of something from spoiling someone else's fun. I'm with you there arth. The continuous repetition on and on just drives me nuts. Just as well we aren't subjected to the same thing at Easter, although the ring of a hammer striking a nail might be melodious.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

22nd December 2020, 05:27 PM	#25
MarkCorrigan Winter is Coming Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 9,037	Personally I love Christmas music. There are only a few of the "usual suspect" songs I despise. Originally Posted by SteveAitch What? Even this? This is one I hate but fortunately for me it hasn't crossed the pond so I never have to hear it.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz They for example thought that slavery was perfectly fine, absolutely OK, and then they didn't and what is the point of the Catholic Church if it says "Oh we couldn't know better because no one else did" THEN WHAT ARE YOU FOR? - Stephen Fry

22nd December 2020, 05:54 PM	#26
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 70,317	Originally Posted by Thor 2 I'm with you there arth. The continuous repetition on and on just drives me nuts. Just as well we aren't subjected to the same thing at Easter, although the ring of a hammer striking a nail might be melodious. Part of my problem is that most of the traditional Christmas music is explicitly religious in nature. That makes sense. But Christmas long been entirely divorced from whatever religious feelings I might ever have had so it doesn't make sense to me to sing what are essentially hymns of praise. Those Christmas songs that aren't explicitly religious are inane. They are for the most part musically uninteresting and repetitive, or designed specifically to get into your head and never leave until displaced by the next brainlessly happy melody. If someone likes their Christmas music, that's fine by me. If they insist on playing it in my earshot, I will leave the area. Oh, and Rudolf is an awful song about how everyone makes fun of the deformed kid until one day he becomes useful to them.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

22nd December 2020, 07:35 PM	#28
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 70,317	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Like all music, it all comes down to the performance. With a bit of artistic license and injection of personality even Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer could be a winner. A lot of what we hear in the shopping mall is muzak. It is the latter that is most ubiquitous and hardest to avoid.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

2nd January 2021, 06:13 PM	#29
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 17,001	Originally Posted by theprestige I once had a co-worker who habitually whistled Christmas carols in the workplace. All year long. Mid summer, he's in the break room filling out paperwork, whistling Christmas carols. ... I am a nurse, tending to demented people in a senior citizens residence. One July, on a particularly hot day, I was giving a particular resident a shower, and all the while we talked about singing, and he remembered how he used to sing in a church choir, and how the best service was Christmas Eve, and particularly when the choir and everyone sang "Silent Night". And then, we both sang Silent Night, loudly, with all our hearts, while sweating in a hot July bathroom. I have never seen that man so happy before or after. Actually one of my fondest stories from my work so far, never fails to water my eyes
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

2nd January 2021, 06:39 PM	#30
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,896	Originally Posted by Oystein I am a nurse, tending to demented people in a senior citizens residence. One July, on a particularly hot day, I was giving a particular resident a shower, and all the while we talked about singing, and he remembered how he used to sing in a church choir, and how the best service was Christmas Eve, and particularly when the choir and everyone sang "Silent Night". And then, we both sang Silent Night, loudly, with all our hearts, while sweating in a hot July bathroom. I have never seen that man so happy before or after. Actually one of my fondest stories from my work so far, never fails to water my eyes I was going to make a gripey post of my own but I liked yours so much I decided to enjoy it instead.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

2nd January 2021, 08:43 PM	#31
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,611	Oh come on alfaniner, lets see your gripey post.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

3rd January 2021, 12:09 PM	#32
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 17,001	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Oh come on alfaniner, lets see your gripey post. 2nded
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

3rd January 2021, 12:41 PM	#33
gabeygoat Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,277	Originally Posted by Oystein I am a nurse, tending to demented people in a senior citizens residence. One July, on a particularly hot day, I was giving a particular resident a shower, and all the while we talked about singing, and he remembered how he used to sing in a church choir, and how the best service was Christmas Eve, and particularly when the choir and everyone sang "Silent Night". And then, we both sang Silent Night, loudly, with all our hearts, while sweating in a hot July bathroom. I have never seen that man so happy before or after. Actually one of my fondest stories from my work so far, never fails to water my eyes I like that
	__________________ "May I interest you in some coconut milk?" ~Akhenaten Wallabe Esq

3rd January 2021, 06:35 PM	#34
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,896	OK. Even as of today I'm seeing a couple commercials with Christmas themes. The one that really pisses me off is the freezing dogs one, which starts with a long, dolly-in shot of the saddest-looking boxer you've ever seen. And The First Noel starts. And goes on... and on... The only reason for using that song is for when the voiceover stops and you get to hear "on a cold winter's night that was so deep." There's a similar one for homeless kids that uses Silent Night. I hate that they use peaceful, evocative music that has nothing to do with the subject matter. And every time I see it I say "Put the camera down and tend to that poor dog!" But by now I dive for that remote when it starts.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting. Last edited by alfaniner; 3rd January 2021 at 06:36 PM.

3rd January 2021, 07:33 PM	#35
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,611	Well done alfaniner! I give you 9 out of 10 for that gripe. I want to see more gripes and less of the mussy stuff.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

5th January 2021, 01:13 PM	#36
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,242	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Oh come on alfaniner, lets see your gripey post. Oh come alfaniner, gripey and reluctant ...